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On September 09 2013 12:59 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 12:53 schwza wrote:
Hey, I asked this earlier but maybe you missed it. When are the normal gas timings for 3rd-6th gas if you open gasless 4 queen? Thanks! In zvz? You take your gas once you saturate both bases (the 3-4 gas). The 5th-6th gas really depends on what you want to go into. If you plan on doing pure roaches you don't need to take them for awhile unless you are doing a more passive roach style, if you are doing that then you should take them once your third is about to be saturated.
Ack, sorry, I meant zvt.
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Hi Blade, awesome job you did there, as usual !
Are you ok with me translating it into french and spreading it ? If you are, I will, of course, put the original link and tell people you wrote this !
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Just watched that Akilon game vs protoss (lategame sh engagements).and I have to say you have some sick, sick lategame army control. any tips for improving that particular aspect of gameplay? i suppose just play more games. I find it frustrating , because at plat/dia it seems that protoss control is much more straight forward.
Also, in ZvT, you list out the hatch tech roach/baneling bust, but omit the speed roach/speed baneling version. how do you feel about this particular all-in? seems very strong to me. terran needs a ton of bunkers and/or siege tanks to hold it and tanks should be very scoutable (first factory is almost always near the ramp). Any thoughts?
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On September 09 2013 14:35 Drinksarlot wrote:
Thanks for posting, great guide.
The muta/swarm host zvz build is awesome - I've been using it since you posted it a couple of months ago. Quite a few people on the ladder are surprised and have never seen it before. I'm curious - what is the best counter to it do you think? The only times I lose zvz now is either a surprise early ling rush or in a muta/ling/bling war.
Also, is the +1 air attack really worth it? I've found I only build about 8-9 mutas for map control and to hold off the roach rush - by the time +1 kicks in the mutas aren't that important anymore.
tbh I can't really think of a best counter other then the other player going roach/hydra and trying to mass expand.
Yes I think +1 is worth it as I like to add mutas as well.
On September 09 2013 20:02 Crugio wrote:
A work of art Blade & TL team! I like clear principles laid out: Prioritize the 2/2 over more mutalisks.
I was hoping that you could expand on the Ling/Bane/Muta. One my biggest challenges has been deciding spending gas on banelings or mutas - which do you prioritise and to what mix/level? Seems that banes can spend ALOT of gas quickly.
Lastly, when do you prioritise overlord speed: "Zerg should have overlord speed while teching to lair". Is it before or after Bane Nest?
I prioritize mutalisks unless I see an attack coming then I prioritize banelings.
I get overlord speed same time/slightly before baneling nest.
On September 10 2013 17:28 EXRNaRa wrote:
Would you accept it, if i would translate this guide into german and post it in the Battle.net forums?
There is already a thread but i think you would get even more readers if there would be a version in another language.
Many people do not have the time translating everything if there english isn´t well enough :-)
Go ahead.
On September 10 2013 22:15 goody153 wrote:
i got a question blade55555 .. do you know any vods of pros/high master/gm in zvt where they incorporate swarmhost vs bio-mine ? or if ever you have played one .. i would love to see it .. thanks
Last time I saw a zerg do it was on newkirk zenio vs some terran. It's only good on maps like that + akilon. It also requires the terran to stop being aggressive otherwise transitioning to those you will die.
On September 11 2013 00:24 schwza wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 12:59 blade55555 wrote:On September 09 2013 12:53 schwza wrote:
Hey, I asked this earlier but maybe you missed it. When are the normal gas timings for 3rd-6th gas if you open gasless 4 queen? Thanks! In zvz? You take your gas once you saturate both bases (the 3-4 gas). The 5th-6th gas really depends on what you want to go into. If you plan on doing pure roaches you don't need to take them for awhile unless you are doing a more passive roach style, if you are doing that then you should take them once your third is about to be saturated. Ack, sorry, I meant zvt.
I start 3-6 gas as soon as I start my lair (your 3 bases should be pretty saturated).
On September 11 2013 01:36 Thefan wrote:
Hi Blade, awesome job you did there, as usual !
Are you ok with me translating it into french and spreading it ? If you are, I will, of course, put the original link and tell people you wrote this !
go ahead.
On September 11 2013 01:50 Lobotomist wrote:
Just watched that Akilon game vs protoss (lategame sh engagements).and I have to say you have some sick, sick lategame army control. any tips for improving that particular aspect of gameplay? i suppose just play more games. I find it frustrating , because at plat/dia it seems that protoss control is much more straight forward.
Also, in ZvT, you list out the hatch tech roach/baneling bust, but omit the speed roach/speed baneling version. how do you feel about this particular all-in? seems very strong to me. terran needs a ton of bunkers and/or siege tanks to hold it and tanks should be very scoutable (first factory is almost always near the ramp). Any thoughts?
Well late game definitely requires better control from the zerg, where as protoss control isn't as much in the late game (especially vs voidray/colossi armies). Only way to improve that is to do that kind of play a lot (late game).
As for speed roach/bane bust I don't think it's very good anymore. I feel like terrans might still die to slow, but dying to a speed is almost not going to happen at all as the terran will realize what is happening and have more time to respond to that then say the slow version.
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Awesome guide!
One thing I think is missing are the gas timings for Terran (after the first 2).
Without them listed, I'd assume you'd want 2 more as you start lair and another 2 as soon as third is saturated, but yeah - it wasn't in the guide and might as well be to match the comprehensiveness of the rest of the write-up!
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Is there a reason your zvt scout goes out on 10 rather then 14?
Thanks in advance
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On September 11 2013 10:46 ZigZiglar wrote:
Awesome guide!
One thing I think is missing are the gas timings for Terran (after the first 2).
Without them listed, I'd assume you'd want 2 more as you start lair and another 2 as soon as third is saturated, but yeah - it wasn't in the guide and might as well be to match the comprehensiveness of the rest of the write-up!
I get the next 4 once I start my lair (3rd base should be pretty saturated by then).
On September 11 2013 11:45 CrashD wrote:
Is there a reason your zvt scout goes out on 10 rather then 14?
Thanks in advance
If you scout at 14 if you scout a proxy you can't prevent it, if you scout at 10 you can scout for proxies and get to his main base to decide whether to gasless, 3 hatch before pool or 15 hatch 16 pool 16 gas.
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thx
it is very useful for Z-users
thank YOU!
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<3 blade. I was really looking for a new strategy guide. This is super comprehensive and awesome. Thank you!
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Blade, this guide is very well written and helpful but I have a request.
More all in builds, or very strong timing attacks (because all ins aren't your style)
I feel all ins are a vital part of this game and are useable at high level play (Hyvaa) so it would be helpful to give us some more edge than the macro zerg style. Make the other races scout more on ladder.
Thanks for the guide
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On September 12 2013 03:40 Ephemera wrote:
Blade, this guide is very well written and helpful but I have a request.
More all in builds, or very strong timing attacks (because all ins aren't your style)
I feel all ins are a vital part of this game and are useable at high level play (Hyvaa) so it would be helpful to give us some more edge than the macro zerg style. Make the other races scout more on ladder.
Thanks for the guide
I don't write all ins because imo they aren't the best way to improve as a player and I also don't like doing them very much as I feel zerg cheese is terrible anyway. The cheeses I put that I think are good/ok I put in the guide.
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i love the ZvZ build and replay. awesome stuff blade
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Hi Blade,
What do you think of the current "DRG style" ZvP that uses ling and hydra (with ling upgrades) into a muta transition ? Do you think this is a strong style or a good opening, and can it transition well to your own style (with SH), or do you think it is just a metagame thing that won't last ?
The reason I ask is because whereas I love your SH style (that gives me the highest winrates and is in my opinion the most "reliable" thing to do vs a 3-base toss), I have some trouble securing map control on very open maps (like whirlwind), so I wondered if an aggressive style to deny toss' 3rd while spreading creep and teching up would not be easier to pull of instead of playing straight SH. I know you like to open roach hydra everytime you expect some agression or before securing a transition to SH, but in that regard I wanted to know if you tried a more ling heavy kind of play like the one DRG goes for ?
Thank you for your insight.
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On September 12 2013 19:40 DjayEl wrote:
Hi Blade,
What do you think of the current "DRG style" ZvP that uses ling and hydra (with ling upgrades) into a muta transition ? Do you think this is a strong style or a good opening, and can it transition well to your own style (with SH), or do you think it is just a metagame thing that won't last ?
The reason I ask is because whereas I love your SH style (that gives me the highest winrates and is in my opinion the most "reliable" thing to do vs a 3-base toss), I have some trouble securing map control on very open maps (like whirlwind), so I wondered if an aggressive style to deny toss' 3rd while spreading creep and teching up would not be easier to pull of instead of playing straight SH. I know you like to open roach hydra everytime you expect some agression or before securing a transition to SH, but in that regard I wanted to know if you tried a more ling heavy kind of play like the one DRG goes for ?
Thank you for your insight.
It's not really a DRG style as that has been popular in korea almost since hots release. It can be strong, but it's very predictable (everytime I watch a stream and a zerg does it, the protoss sees the hydra/ling, goes phoenix blindly and is correct in doing so because the zerg is going mutalisk, this also happens to me whenever I do it).
The SH style is kinda hard on maps like whirlwind due to how big and open it is, it's a fine style to do just expect many blind counters once they see only hydra/ling.
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But what do you (in your own style) personally aim for on maps like Whilrwind, assuming Protoss is playing his standard gateway/colo/VR? Do you still go SH and try to make it work no matter what, do you choose Hyun' Style R/H/V and in that case, do you still want to transition to your "ideal" late game composition of SH/hydra/viper/infestor, or is it definitely not viable on this kind of maps ?
I feel like any other init composition has a timer on it unless you hit some timing, but at the same time SH feels so hard to pull off. Do you kinda all-in or gamble yourself on this map or do you do anything else? (again, assuming very standard P play). Thats the most tricky point for me in ZvP right now.
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United States248 Posts
On September 12 2013 19:40 DjayEl wrote:
Hi Blade,
What do you think of the current "DRG style" ZvP that uses ling and hydra (with ling upgrades) into a muta transition ? Do you think this is a strong style or a good opening, and can it transition well to your own style (with SH), or do you think it is just a metagame thing that won't last ?
The reason I ask is because whereas I love your SH style (that gives me the highest winrates and is in my opinion the most "reliable" thing to do vs a 3-base toss), I have some trouble securing map control on very open maps (like whirlwind), so I wondered if an aggressive style to deny toss' 3rd while spreading creep and teching up would not be easier to pull of instead of playing straight SH. I know you like to open roach hydra everytime you expect some agression or before securing a transition to SH, but in that regard I wanted to know if you tried a more ling heavy kind of play like the one DRG goes for ?
Thank you for your insight.
I think something that is important to point out about the ling/hydra style is its strength in BoX series because it provides a platform from which to perform many different builds. Think about the basic Hydra/Ling style in the midgame. You have:
-3-4 bases
-1+ upgrading evo
-6+ gases
-5+ hatches.
The transitions you have from a ~12:30 timing are:
-add spire and go for mutas
-add spire and go for a hydra ling corrupter timing attack (super potent if people are blindly phoenixing)
-add infestation pit + second evo and go for a delayed viper endgame
-add infestation pit and go for SH/static D
The spire transitions are, I feel, the strongest, but the sheer versatility of the build makes it very strong in series play. You might consider a more robust all 'round build for ladder however. All of the little adjustments Zerg can make require different responses from the protoss player (DRG style with double ups and lings vs Jaedong style of ranged first, etc).
Also I will say that playing straight SH styles on maps like WW and Frost seem pretty suicidal to me, and I think Blade also advises varying styles on maps like that. See his note here:
Maps this style is weak on: Whirlwind, Red City, Star Nation
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Been randoming more lately, this is going to make some nerds sad when i play zerg. thanks blade!
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Do you Blade (or anyone else) understand the build Nerchio did in a few ZvZ's at Dreamhack? I think it was like this:
15p
14g
queen + 4 lings
expand at 3:28
It has a tiny bit earlier expand than a 14/14, but much later ling speed. The 4 initial lings don't do anything anyway since it's a 15pool. I was very confused, and I just met it on ladder and crushed it. It just seems so bad, but since Nerchio used it I guess there must be some viable build, but how come?
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On September 17 2013 02:27 Zheryn wrote:
Do you Blade (or anyone else) understand the build Nerchio did in a few ZvZ's at Dreamhack? I think it was like this:
15p
14g
queen + 4 lings
expand at 3:28
It has a tiny bit earlier expand than a 14/14, but much later ling speed. The 4 initial lings don't do anything anyway since it's a 15pool. I was very confused, and I just met it on ladder and crushed it. It just seems so bad, but since Nerchio used it I guess there must be some viable build, but how come?
Um I don't know why you would do that, sounds kinda bad to me. Just because a pro does a build, doesn't necessarily mean it's good. I imagine it would be very good versus 10 pool or something maybe, but to play in a macro game dunno why you would do that.
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Big thanks to Blade for his dedication and time put into this, always a pleasure to read your guides.
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EPT
