While hellbats are very good against this style, it remains very viable, especially since the hellbat nerf. Now hellbats are harder to get because they require blue flame to be effective and therefore can't be produced as heavily in the mid-game. If your opponent mixes in hellbats, you have to be very careful in spreading your army out a bit more and keeping him pinned back with zealot warp-ins until you can get a good templar/archon/colossus count up.
a good sum up of the build. Now that blizzard removed the counter to super cost effective a+click chargelot you basically stomp any terran with this build .
While hellbats are very good against this style, it remains very viable, especially since the hellbat nerf. Now hellbats are harder to get because they require blue flame to be effective and therefore can't be produced as heavily in the mid-game. If your opponent mixes in hellbats, you have to be very careful in spreading your army out a bit more and keeping him pinned back with zealot warp-ins until you can get a good templar/archon/colossus count up.
a good sum up of the build. Now that blizzard removed the counter to super cost effective a+click chargelot you basically stomp any terran with this build .
YOU REQUIRE MORE GHOSTS (Brood Queen voice)
Chargelots die pretty quickly to kiting if you EMP them first. Archons melt to EMPs. HTs become useless supply if you EMP them. Use scan to remove Obs and track the enemy. Then win the Ghost vs HT war.
While hellbats are very good against this style, it remains very viable, especially since the hellbat nerf. Now hellbats are harder to get because they require blue flame to be effective and therefore can't be produced as heavily in the mid-game. If your opponent mixes in hellbats, you have to be very careful in spreading your army out a bit more and keeping him pinned back with zealot warp-ins until you can get a good templar/archon/colossus count up.
a good sum up of the build. Now that blizzard removed the counter to super cost effective a+click chargelot you basically stomp any terran with this build .
YOU REQUIRE MORE GHOSTS (Brood Queen voice)
Chargelots die pretty quickly to kiting if you EMP them first. Archons melt to EMPs. HTs become useless supply if you EMP them. Use scan to remove Obs and track the enemy. Then win the Ghost vs HT war.
Adding to this; if he goes for the 2-base Storm/Charge/Archon all-in variant (i.e. doesn't take a third and just bum-rushes you with a million Zealots backed by Storms and 3-4 Archons), you have so much opportunity to win the base race as Terran. Seriously, someone did exactly that to me the other day and I loaded up 6 Medivacs before the attack hit, jetted to his base, and spent the next 15 minutes giving him a death animation while he tried to catch to speedvacs and floating buildings with only Archons as AA tech.
What Teoita said earlier about kiting is SUPER important if they're playing an aggressive version of this. You really can kite practically infinitely back to your base if he tries to push out because the HT will never catch properly microed Medivacs and bioballs. Stay clear of the Archon splash and by the time he gets to your base all you should need to do is pre-split and pull 30 SCVs to engage and then faceroll his remaining forces once the Storms are all wasted.
There's no such thing as an archon+storm allin because it's way too slow and it's very unreliable. The most common variation of zealot/archon allins these days is the fast double forge, 2/2 build that parting first used vs flash on star station, or alternatively some variants of the immortal/archon timing i mentioned.
If you are going to commit hardcore to 2base you generally don't get storm. As i wrote in the guide, you generally can't really push across the map with storm because you just get kited to death as you move out, while templar lag too far behind to be useful. It's very possible, however, to put pressure on a terran IF THE PROTOSS KNOWS WHERE HIS ARMY IS, AND WHERE IT WILL STAY IN THE FOLLOWING MINUTE OR SO. This is where the warp prism is key; as i posted, if you can control his army movement with harassment you will have an easier time with, say, pushing out and pressuring his third while taking your own. That is, by no means, an allin by the protoss. It's just taking advantage of the map control that harassment gives you.
Wait, it shows 2 entirely different transitions with this opener against a medivac timing... One of them is based on making a prism to harass and buy time for storm and +2 to finish and the other one includes 3~ immortals and a DT drop to take a third behind it. First of all, which one is better in your opinion? Considering the fact that most of the terran are doing simple variations of Raper FE into @10:00~ bio timings, either of these builds can be a new standard on ladder. However, while the DT drop with those 3 immortals is a safer variant, the one with fast Storm and +2 grants a better position for the midgame when transitioning into a 3rd. Secondly, isn't the DT drop version includes too much gas investment? I mean, I haven't tried the DT drop build yet but the 3 Immortals + faster twilight tech into DTs and later HTs is looking like a huge gas investment. Are you sure I will have all this? Considering the fact we're also getting 3 immortals early on, the 30s earlier natural gasses can be a pain in the butt if we're talking about primarily mineral economy, and Immortals primarily eat minerals so I'm not really sure about this...
Although, Thanks to Teoita for this awesome guide I'm sure I'll be wrecking alot of terrans with this styles when I'll master it
Overall this style is dead because of the widow mine buffs. You can still open DT drop (it's a very risky/high variance build though), but you need to go colossus/blink in the midgame. Storm before colossus is just not viable.
The builds were both viable and well timed though. Too bad for the mine buffs
On September 01 2014 03:16 Teoita wrote: Overall this style is dead because of the widow mine buffs. You can still open DT drop (it's a very risky/high variance build though), but you need to go colossus/blink in the midgame. Storm before colossus is just not viable.
The builds were both viable and well timed though. Too bad for the mine buffs
I think you could be a little bit too hasty by saying something isn't viable just a few weeks after a change to game balance (that honestly wasn't that game-breaking in the first place). Mine builds against Storm have always been good, and only up until now people have started to claim that it's not viable, perhaps because Terrans have started to catch on and use it more often. Even back in season 1, well before the mine buffs, Terrans like Maru and Bomber were still using Mines to great effect the exact same way we're seeing today, but nobody said anything about it back then.
The only real change is that it punishes harder if the Protoss has to a-move over the top of a well-established mine field. This is why modern Storm builds open with a lot of Immortals or Blink to deal with mine containments. If you're just derping and a-moving over a minefield then you deserve to die, and unfortunately before mine builds existed, Protoss could do that basically whenever they wanted. Nowadays, it's simply about approaching it wisely with the supporting units rather than just attacking at whatever you want and not having to worry about losing your army (like in WoL).
I've still seen Storm builds used occasionally at the pro level after the buff, and the fact that it is still used and wins games at the pro level at the very least should warrant you to think twice about declaring it dead. It's not common but it's definitely far from non-viable.
On September 01 2014 03:16 Teoita wrote: Overall this style is dead because of the widow mine buffs. You can still open DT drop (it's a very risky/high variance build though), but you need to go colossus/blink in the midgame. Storm before colossus is just not viable.
The builds were both viable and well timed though. Too bad for the mine buffs
I think you could be a little bit too hasty by saying something isn't viable just a few weeks after a change to game balance (that honestly wasn't that game-breaking in the first place). Mine builds against Storm have always been good, and only up until now people have started to claim that it's not viable, perhaps because Terrans have started to catch on and use it more often. Even back in season 1, well before the mine buffs, Terrans like Maru and Bomber were still using Mines to great effect the exact same way we're seeing today, but nobody said anything about it back then.
The only real change is that it punishes harder if the Protoss has to a-move over the top of a well-established mine field. This is why modern Storm builds open with a lot of Immortals or Blink to deal with mine containments. If you're just derping and a-moving over a minefield then you deserve to die, and unfortunately before mine builds existed, Protoss could do that basically whenever they wanted. Nowadays, it's simply about approaching it wisely with the supporting units rather than just attacking at whatever you want and not having to worry about losing your army (like in WoL).
I've still seen Storm builds used occasionally at the pro level after the buff, and the fact that it is still used and wins games at the pro level at the very least should warrant you to think twice about declaring it dead. It's not common but it's definitely far from non-viable.
Please, link some pro games where this was used successfully against mines and it wasn't a "surprise" build(= it was scouted). Thanks! Because I cannot remember any and I really, really love templar openings
Even if (as is likely) you could still do this by microing individual zealots, triggering charge at the right time etc etc...what's the point of doing that when you can just amove stalker/colossus instead, having the same strength in your midgame army for a fraction of the effort?
Imo with the current mine, templar isn't viable not because mines will always kill it (they may not if you play perfectly), but because executing perfectly vs mines is so much harder than just going colossus first, it's not worth trying. With colossus styles evolving to hold scv pulls more effectively and blink/warp prism openings being common, a lot of the pros of this style (more map presence and harassment potential, more safety vs scv pulls, better builds that can afford a solid observer network) are being incorporated into colossus builds for a fraction of the effort.
what's the point of doing that when you can just amove stalker/colossus instead, having the same strength in your midgame army for a fraction of the effort?
First of all, I dont really like Colo/blink openings. Thats why I came here in the first place.
it's not worth trying
So basically everyone should go colo/blink because templar style is hard to pull off? And what If i dont like the easy way, bro?
more safety vs scv pulls,
Most of the colo/blink builds still suck vs scv pulls. I havent seen a single one which is DESIGNED to stop scv pulls while going colo/blink midgame.
On September 02 2014 00:44 Charoisaur wrote: Considering that MC won vs flash, the best player in the world with this style i wouldn't call it not viable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87nGDbvr0z0 (first game)
Flash isn't even the best Terran in the world, let alone the best player (Maru says hi). He won an IEM. That's great and all, but it's not quite the world championship or even a GSL.
On September 02 2014 00:00 Altmax wrote: First of all, I dont really like Colo/blink openings. Thats why I came here in the first place.
Neither do i, but the hard truth is, with the way the game is right now they are the only solid midgame option on most maps. You can do whatever you wish - in fact, i know of GM protosses that do the most fucking retarded builds like 2base tempest allins in PvT - but if we are talking about wether this style is viable/should work consistently, the answer is simply, no, not as well as colossus.
On September 02 2014 00:00 Altmax wrote: So basically everyone should go colo/blink because templar style is hard to pull off? And what If i dont like the easy way, bro?
If you want to play a sub optimal style, that is up to you. None is stopping you from going 1base carrier or not getting Aoe vs terran, and im sure at whatever level you play at (and i mean literally whatever level below pro) you can win 50% of your games. That doesn't mean you aren't playing a sub optimal style.
On September 02 2014 00:00 Altmax wrote: Most of the colo/blink builds still suck vs scv pulls. I havent seen a single one which is DESIGNED to stop scv pulls while going colo/blink midgame.
cjherO's double forge/blink build is the first example that comes to mind. The simple adjustment of not cutting colossi in the midgame for faster storm and starting extra gates before the gasses at your third can be enough to hold on many maps, and the vast majority of colossus builds can go for that type of adjustment during the game.
Additionally, older Colossus builds are rotating back into the metagame, which might be why you seem to believe colossi builds always die to them. Because there are in fact colossus builds that are safe against scv pulls, terrans have been using them less than before the rise of templar builds, therefore allowing protoss to be greedier with their storm timings. Of course that does make use vulnerable to the boys again, but that kind of all-in (at least at the pro level) is NOT the standard around which every build is prepared. It's kind of like PvZ at the end of 2012: protosses were being insanely greedy in setting up their pre-bl timings, and that exposed them to roach max kind of crap. However, roach max was considerably less popular (if not outright excting), so cutting that corner was in fact reasonably safe.
Of course, this is all relevant to the top level. On ladder absolutely EVERYTHING is viable, which means that frankly strategy discussions around ladder play are kind of meaningless; the answer is always "do whatever the fuck you want as long as you execute better than your opponent".
On September 02 2014 00:44 Charoisaur wrote: Considering that MC won vs flash, the best player in the world with this style i wouldn't call it not viable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87nGDbvr0z0 (first game)
Flash isn't even the best Terran in the world, let alone the best player (Maru says hi). He won an IEM. That's great and all, but it's not quite the world championship or even a GSL.
okay, maybe he's not the one best player in the world but my point still stands. How can you say a style is not viable when a player like flash loses to it. and its not like those rare occassions where a player tried mech vs protoss and the protoss loses because he didn't scout and reacted horribly. In this game flash knew it quite early and he built widow mines and pressured with them. he did all the things that are "unbeatable" without collossi but mc still managed to defend the pressure and win the game. maybe its not as easy as before the mine buff but its definitely a viable playstyle and a solid alternative to collossi styles.
On September 02 2014 00:44 Charoisaur wrote: Considering that MC won vs flash, the best player in the world with this style i wouldn't call it not viable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87nGDbvr0z0 (first game)
You're taking that wayyyyyy too definitively for a game that was wonky as fuck.
Firstly, his '2-base Templar' begins as more of a mass Immortal/Gateway composition transitioning into Templar. It's an opening that should have put MC more behind that it did, and only Flash's timidity and some mismicro saves him from just dying to the first max-out by Flash.
Secondly, don't accept Flash's blunders with army control as indicative of the broader viability of MC's style. There is a reason that no one plays this style except MC, and even MC is far more likely to Void Ray all-in you, or Colossus all-in you, or ninja expand than play this kind of 2-base Templar play.
Lastly, for this ONE game, you can make the argument that there's no way to say whether the style is viable. Then, however, you have to explain away the myriad of other games that we saw post-shield-damage-patch which establish pretty definitively that you should not be playing this way versus a dedicated Terran who knows what to do. Add to that the fact that the splash damage got re-buffed back to pre-nerf levels and the shield splash still exists? I don't see that there's any way to argue that a committed bio-mine assault doesn't wreck 2-base Templar styles which are forced to rely on units that are awful versus Mines.
Also for the millionth time, ANYTHING is viable on ladder, if by viable you mean "wins at least 50%". I used to be almost undefeated (i lost 3 games out of dozens) with 4gate +1>DT>third base>chargelot/archon all-in in PvZ, and that is an absolutely fucking stupid build. However, people suck balls and it's a ridicolously wierd and dumb build, so it still won me games.
Discussing strategy shouldn't revolve around "what can i do to win 50% of my games", because the answer really is whatever you damn well please. A reasonable discussion should be about what is optimal or preferrable on a specific map/matchup, in a phase of a metagame etc etc etc, otherwise the whole discussion is just pointless.
In that regard, 2base templar is NOT optimal or preferrable to colossus right now. It doesn't mean that none is ever going to win with it.
It's just very difficult to play cost efficiently vs a terran who mixes in mines in the midgame. You tend to end up bleeding units over multiple engagements, and as long as the terran is careful about not over committing into you, he can chip away at you cost effectively. Collosus allow you to clear out mines much more easily and safely.
On September 02 2014 03:59 Teoita wrote: Also for the millionth time, ANYTHING is viable on ladder, if by viable you mean "wins at least 50%". I used to be almost undefeated (i lost 3 games out of dozens) with 4gate +1>DT>third base>chargelot/archon all-in in PvZ, and that is an absolutely fucking stupid build. However, people suck balls and it's a ridicolously wierd and dumb build, so it still won me games.
Discussing strategy shouldn't revolve around "what can i do to win 50% of my games", because the answer really is whatever you damn well please. A reasonable discussion should be about what is optimal or preferrable on a specific map/matchup, in a phase of a metagame etc etc etc, otherwise the whole discussion is just pointless.
In that regard, 2base templar is NOT optimal or preferrable to colossus right now. It doesn't mean that none is ever going to win with it.
Just because something else is "better" doesn't mean there's not an alternative style. If you want to only talk about the most ideal and standard strategy, then let's only talk about +2 Blink openers in PvZ, and Defensive Blink into Colossus builds in PvP because Stargate builds are harder to use. Why discuss strategy at all if you're only going to talk about one vein of strategy?
Regarding the ease of use, of course Colossus openers are easier to use. When were they ever not? However, they don't offer the same level of micro potential and harassment that Storm does. If your approach to PvT is simply to win with straight up army fights over and over and you want to be able to a-move into whatever you want, then sure, I guess Colossus are a better option. But once again, if Storm was a sub-optimal build and there wasn't any point to using it anymore, then why are we seeing pros opt to use Storm before Colossus, or really fast Storm switches after 1 rangeless Colossus (just like we saw in WoL)? The tech as a main staple of the army is still useful, but it doesn't work like it did in WoL.
I've been saying this all along and that is that there never should be an army composition that can a-move at whatever it wants without consequence. The only place it has consistently existed is PvT and that's why Terrans have claimed BS for so long. Since Protoss players were used to that, and now that they can't do that with a particular opener, I think it's funny how everyone labels it non-viable because you can't a-move. We still see pros using it here and there, so the notion that it isn't viable is a simple overreaction. People will soon adjust to the new nuances of Storm openers and it will stick around.
On September 02 2014 03:59 Teoita wrote: Also for the millionth time, ANYTHING is viable on ladder, if by viable you mean "wins at least 50%". I used to be almost undefeated (i lost 3 games out of dozens) with 4gate +1>DT>third base>chargelot/archon all-in in PvZ, and that is an absolutely fucking stupid build. However, people suck balls and it's a ridicolously wierd and dumb build, so it still won me games.
Discussing strategy shouldn't revolve around "what can i do to win 50% of my games", because the answer really is whatever you damn well please. A reasonable discussion should be about what is optimal or preferrable on a specific map/matchup, in a phase of a metagame etc etc etc, otherwise the whole discussion is just pointless.
In that regard, 2base templar is NOT optimal or preferrable to colossus right now. It doesn't mean that none is ever going to win with it.
Just because something else is "better" doesn't mean there's not an alternative style. If you want to only talk about the most ideal and standard strategy, then let's only talk about +2 Blink openers in PvZ, and Defensive Blink into Colossus builds in PvP because Stargate builds are harder to use. Why discuss strategy at all if you're only going to talk about one vein of strategy?
Regarding the ease of use, of course Colossus openers are easier to use. When were they ever not? However, they don't offer the same level of micro potential and harassment that Storm does. If your approach to PvT is simply to win with straight up army fights over and over and you want to be able to a-move into whatever you want, then sure, I guess Colossus are a better option. But once again, if Storm was a sub-optimal build and there wasn't any point to using it anymore, then why are we seeing pros opt to use Storm before Colossus, or really fast Storm switches after 1 rangeless Colossus (just like we saw in WoL)? The tech as a main staple of the army is still useful, but it doesn't work like it did in WoL.
I've been saying this all along and that is that there never should be an army composition that can a-move at whatever it wants without consequence. The only place it has consistently existed is PvT and that's why Terrans have claimed BS for so long. Since Protoss players were used to that, and now that they can't do that with a particular opener, I think it's funny how everyone labels it non-viable because you can't a-move. We still see pros using it here and there, so the notion that it isn't viable is a simple overreaction. People will soon adjust to the new nuances of Storm openers and it will stick around.
Many people believe Colossus openings are clearly superior (not just easier to execute) in the current patch. Colossus openings can be standard because you can do them every game even if the opponent knows what you are doing, and you should have decent chances to get safely into the midgame (3 bases) without taking build order loses (as long as you scout for cheese). Storm openings are much more fragile. They were always a little bit fragile even before all the mine buffs. Now, they seem really exploitable. So that's probably why Korean pros aren't using them as a standard opening, nonwithstanding that one nice game from MC.
None of this should be a surprise. The 75 mineral, 25 gas mines now do more damage to Protoss units than Tier 3 Psi Storm. They are cloaked, can be dropped like bombs, fire every 40 seconds, don't need any research to be useful, and can be built from a reactor early as 6:00. That's pretty good for a unit that costs the same as a roach or half as much as a stalker.
EPT
