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There are still a lot of variables regarding who wins the Mine vs Storm/Stalker/Immortal/whatever fight, and a Terran can typically play more greedy and put a lot less attention into defending Warp Prisms and whatnot when fighting Colossus. Storm builds have always been counter-attack heavy and relied a lot on just having enough to defend at home while punishing the Terran for being out on the map. That's something Colossus builds for the most part really don't offer considering you can't really zone as well with Colossus armies as you can with Storms, so you need enough units to buffer Colossus armies when either side decides to commit.
I agree that Colossus is easier to do and therefore will be more popular, but Storm builds as a secondary and to keep people on their toes are still plenty viable, so you will see them mixed into BoX's all the time. Those builds will continue down the path of harassment and counterattacks while playing supremely defensive with the Storms, considering if every Terran's response is super aggro mine play then they can punish them for being on the map the whole game. It's just a different pace, different feel. I'm not arguing that Storm openers are better, but they are still plenty viable. The only type of Storm openers that will die off are ones that want to attack in the midgame and win with a couple good Storms on the army at the Terran base. Also, sloppy openers that rely on Zealot Charge and a-moving will be dead, and good riddance.
Still, I don't see how the most recent patch really impacted the matchup that much anyway. In the past, if you attacked into an established minefield you still would trade poorly with Zealots. Maru used to do this stuff all the time. A-moving over mines was never the goal of Storm openers as long as mines have been around, whether on this patch or the previous one. The mission should be to slowly gain territory with Stalkers, Immortals, etc while protecting those units with Storms. If you ever clear out the mines or get a surround with Zealots, WP storm drops, etc, then their army should get shredded partially due to friendly fire or just not having mines in the back. Either way, you are forcing them to be on the map if they want to play a mine containment style, so counterattacks and harassment should be pretty regular.
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United States4883 Posts
On September 02 2014 09:05 Salient wrote:...a unit that costs the same as a roach or half as much as a stalker.
I think that's the real problem here :p
Anyhow, I would have to agree with Teo for the most part: ANYTHING is viable on ladder, so if you're goal is to just have fun and enjoy the game, just do whatever. You don't have to play bio because it's the "right" way to play Terran, and likewise, you don't have to play only colossus openers just because someone says that templar openings are dead.
In professional play, we have seen templar openings almost completely die off except for a handful of rare and glorious games (because I think all of us here agree that templar openings are way more exciting and amazing). However, going so far as to say they are completely dead isn't QUITE right; they still have plenty of winning potential under the right circumstances, but the right circumstances are much fewer and far between than before the mine buff. In terms of winning consistently or playing to improve, your prerogative should always be to use WHAT WORKS. If you insist on only playing your unique style, you might improve, you might even become GM, you might even become Goody...eventually. But the fastest way to improve and to learn is by doing things that work. For this reason, I will always recommend people away from things in professional games that are based on gimmicks, surprise, or metagame. The fastest road to improvement is by practicing solid and consistent gameplay.
For instance, I ALWAYS recommend people away from MC in particular. MC plays his own unique style, is a strong mechanical player, and seems to make things that would otherwise never work for other players work for him. This is because he knows what he's doing. To try and emulate MC is to study a far-removed unique creature which you cannot even begin to understand because you don't even understand the environment for which these strategies are created. Certainly, over time, this can be understood and used. But unless you're already easy GM and skill and semi-pro, this simply takes too long to learn.
All of that said, remember to keep the first thing first: have fun. If you are not happy with going colossus every game, just work on templar openings and try to find a way to fit it into the game and optimize your game play. But for the purposes of advice, remember the perspective that players like me and Teoita are coming from: we want you do well and have fun, but we will always steer you towards more stable, reliable gameplay because we believe that's the most important thing to let you know.
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Russian Federation4 Posts
Can someone answer my f'ing question?
which one is better in your opinion? Considering the fact that most of the terran are doing simple variations of Raper FE into @10:00~ bio timings, either of these builds can be a new standard on ladder.
However, while the DT drop with those 3 immortals is a safer variant, the one with fast Storm and +2 grants a better position for the midgame when transitioning into a 3rd.
Secondly, isn't the DT drop version includes too much gas investment? I mean, I haven't tried the DT drop build yet but the 3 Immortals + faster twilight tech into DTs and later HTs is looking like a huge gas investment. Are you sure I will have all this? Considering the fact we're also getting 3 immortals early on, the 30s earlier natural gasses can be a pain in the butt if we're talking about primarily mineral economy, and Immortals primarily eat minerals so I'm not really sure about this...
I WILL play this style cos i so f*cking hate pure colo openings... so boring and... un-unorthodox...
Tried Colo/Phoenix, but I still feel like this style hasn't been refined yet so I'm not rly sure about it...
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United States4883 Posts
On September 03 2014 02:06 Altmax wrote:Can someone answer my f'ing question? Show nested quote +which one is better in your opinion? Considering the fact that most of the terran are doing simple variations of Raper FE into @10:00~ bio timings, either of these builds can be a new standard on ladder.
However, while the DT drop with those 3 immortals is a safer variant, the one with fast Storm and +2 grants a better position for the midgame when transitioning into a 3rd.
Secondly, isn't the DT drop version includes too much gas investment? I mean, I haven't tried the DT drop build yet but the 3 Immortals + faster twilight tech into DTs and later HTs is looking like a huge gas investment. Are you sure I will have all this? Considering the fact we're also getting 3 immortals early on, the 30s earlier natural gasses can be a pain in the butt if we're talking about primarily mineral economy, and Immortals primarily eat minerals so I'm not really sure about this... I WILL play this style cos i so f*cking hate pure colo openings... so boring and... un-unorthodox... Tried Colo/Phoenix, but I still feel like this style hasn't been refined yet so I'm not rly sure about it...
If you play templar openings now, they have to be heavily oriented around timings and/or constant harass, so I move that either is good as long as you're using them in an aggressive fashion. I posted a while back about potentially using This 4-immortal/archon timing or something similar to open into a fairly solid templar mid game. If you want, you can mess around with that and see what you can come up with.
If you do the fast storm variant, I think constant warp prism harass is MANDATORY, complete with storm drops. Otherwise, you'll just end up hemorrhaging units and slowly falling behind in economy and army until you just die. Unlike some of the other opinions expressed in here, it's pretty much impossible to not bleed out units against Terran biomine pressure with templar builds.
As far as the DT -> immortal -> HT build, it's not really that gas intensive. Since you generally go single forge with templar builds and since immortals are so mineral-heavy, you're really only spending significant amounts of gas on the initial DTs and tech and then all the rest of your 2-3 base gas income gets dumped into HT and charge (only a small fraction). I also like the idea of opening DTs against Terran because it sets you up to defend drops a lot better in the mid game; along with WP harassment and good army movement, it's incredible how stable you can get. The biggest difficulty is just that this style forces SOOOOOOOOOOO much multi-tasking, which is especially hard if you're facing a Maru-esque player who excels at multi-tasking.
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Show nested quote +I WILL play this style cos i so f*cking hate pure colo openings... so boring and... un-unorthodox...
Tried Colo/Phoenix, but I still feel like this style hasn't been refined yet so I'm not rly sure about it... If you do the fast storm variant, I think constant warp prism harass is MANDATORY, complete with storm drops. Otherwise, you'll just end up hemorrhaging units and slowly falling behind in economy and army until you just die. Unlike some of the other opinions expressed in here, it's pretty much impossible to not bleed out units against Terran biomine pressure with templar builds.
Agreed, harassment has to be a big component of it. I've been liking opening with 2 Oracles and keeping them pinned in their base while I start +1 armor and get into Storm pretty quickly. You do have to keep them busy with Zealot warp-ins, Storm drops, etc, and use your Storm exclusively to zone the Terran out from key positioning on the map (for example, if they burrow mines in range of a Nexus, you're pretty screwed). Meeting them at odd parts of the map with your army (rather than waiting right at your base), before the mines are burrowed, is a good way to get some damage on him while he's not expecting it, sort of like catching tanks unseiged. Using cannons back near your base rather than Zealots is a good way to spend minerals and not die so easily to Mine pushes.
If you start to get pushed back, you need to mix in Stalkers with Blink or Immortals very quickly, otherwise breaking those mine containments is impossible. Immortals tend to be better because the Marines die easily to Storms, and those armies are often very Marauder-heavy after a few skirmishes. The micro for breaking minefields is just seeking forward with an observer, a few Stalkers/Immortals to pick off mines, and 1-2 Templar to Storm whatever tries to kill the Immortals/Stalkers. You'll use this small pack of units quite a bit until the mines are cleared, until you can get a pack of Zealots behind and in front of him, or until he commits into your army. There's a pretty linear system of choices you have to make based on whatever is in range of your Immortals. Just practice it and you'll figure it out.
Eventually you will need to switch into Colossus because a Ghost transition is inevitable. Sometimes you can win those battles, but if you get mass EMP'ed with Storm/Immortal then you are simply dead. I like to switch into Colossus very sharply, like 2 Robos and then exploit their overcommitment into Mine + Ghost, which does very little to stop 4-6 Colossus.
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What if you just throw robo out the window and use a control group of oracles for scouting/detection/early game marine shredding and all-game harassment threat.
Lets say "Robo as soon as gas allows. " Was instead "Stargate as soon as gas allows." and "Units off the robo: 2x obs, warp prism, 1x obs." was instead "Units off the stargate: 2x Oracle". Or maybe a third oracle if you can cut back on all those sentries.
And then you could even expand your options out of what happens while cleaning up your play. Stuff like "Reaper vs no reaper: if he goes gas and doesn’t go reaper, get one cannon per mineral line." can be simplified to "If he goes gas and doesn't go reaper, keep your oracles at home to help counter" because things like "A single cannon cannot take down all the hellions before they roast half your probes" wouldn't apply as 2 oracles have like 4 times the DPS to a hellions than a cannon.
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Italy12247 Posts
The point isn't having detection. Even with detection (and observers are better at detecting mines pushing into your third than oracles are), it's just extremly hard to engage properly and not have all your zealots evaporate.
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On September 03 2014 05:08 Mnijykmirl wrote:
What if you just throw robo out the window and use a control group of oracles for scouting/detection/early game marine shredding and all-game harassment threat.
Lets say "Robo as soon as gas allows. " Was instead "Stargate as soon as gas allows." and "Units off the robo: 2x obs, warp prism, 1x obs." was instead "Units off the stargate: 2x Oracle". Or maybe a third oracle if you can cut back on all those sentries.
And then you could even expand your options out of what happens while cleaning up your play. Stuff like "Reaper vs no reaper: if he goes gas and doesn’t go reaper, get one cannon per mineral line." can be simplified to "If he goes gas and doesn't go reaper, keep your oracles at home to help counter" because things like "A single cannon cannot take down all the hellions before they roast half your probes" wouldn't apply as 2 oracles have like 4 times the DPS to a hellions than a cannon.
The Oracles have nice flexibility in the early game and maybe midgame for revelation (approaching an army and cutting it off is super easy if you already know where it is), but the detection component is pretty flimsy. Observers as a whole are much better because they are constant detection and it isn't such a huge target. You eventually need the Robo anyway for Immortals, Warp Prisms and a Colossus transition.
If you want to use Oracles they need to be a specific part of the opener, rather than a mix-in to replace Robo whenever you might get it. One of the strengths of Oracles is being able to nicely handle mine, hellion, etc openers without taking too much damage, and keep the Terran in their base on any other sort of opener so constant pressure doesn't build up throughout the game.
I open Oracle but I usually put my Robo and Templar Archives down at the same time, because as was mentioned earlier, harassment is pretty much a necessity with Storm builds nowadays, and you need something to be able to deal with mines if you get pushed back (as well as the tendency for the Terran to get marauder heavy), and Immortals are a nice choice.
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On September 03 2014 07:33 Magnet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2014 05:08 Mnijykmirl wrote:
What if you just throw robo out the window and use a control group of oracles for scouting/detection/early game marine shredding and all-game harassment threat.
Lets say "Robo as soon as gas allows. " Was instead "Stargate as soon as gas allows." and "Units off the robo: 2x obs, warp prism, 1x obs." was instead "Units off the stargate: 2x Oracle". Or maybe a third oracle if you can cut back on all those sentries.
And then you could even expand your options out of what happens while cleaning up your play. Stuff like "Reaper vs no reaper: if he goes gas and doesn’t go reaper, get one cannon per mineral line." can be simplified to "If he goes gas and doesn't go reaper, keep your oracles at home to help counter" because things like "A single cannon cannot take down all the hellions before they roast half your probes" wouldn't apply as 2 oracles have like 4 times the DPS to a hellions than a cannon. The Oracles have nice flexibility in the early game and maybe midgame for revelation (approaching an army and cutting it off is super easy if you already know where it is), but the detection component is pretty flimsy. Observers as a whole are much better because they are constant detection and it isn't such a huge target. You eventually need the Robo anyway for Immortals, Warp Prisms and a Colossus transition. If you want to use Oracles they need to be a specific part of the opener, rather than a mix-in to replace Robo whenever you might get it. One of the strengths of Oracles is being able to nicely handle mine, hellion, etc openers without taking too much damage, and keep the Terran in their base on any other sort of opener so constant pressure doesn't build up throughout the game. I open Oracle but I usually put my Robo and Templar Archives down at the same time, because as was mentioned earlier, harassment is pretty much a necessity with Storm builds nowadays, and you need something to be able to deal with mines if you get pushed back (as well as the tendency for the Terran to get marauder heavy), and Immortals are a nice choice.
I get the composition that you are going for, but what happens if the Terran scouts the Immortals, instantly knows you are playing a Templar style, and just goes 5-rax Reactored Mines/Medivacs balls to the wall aggression? I just don't see that composition dealing well with the style. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's really hard to go Oracle -> Charge -> Immortals +Templar + Storm and still have enough gas for well-timed upgrades. I'm just theorycrafting, but I have a hard time believing that you can keep up with the firepower available to a decently micro'd Terran army with equal or better upgrades and half-decent micro.
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United States4883 Posts
On September 03 2014 09:45 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2014 07:33 Magnet wrote:On September 03 2014 05:08 Mnijykmirl wrote:
What if you just throw robo out the window and use a control group of oracles for scouting/detection/early game marine shredding and all-game harassment threat.
Lets say "Robo as soon as gas allows. " Was instead "Stargate as soon as gas allows." and "Units off the robo: 2x obs, warp prism, 1x obs." was instead "Units off the stargate: 2x Oracle". Or maybe a third oracle if you can cut back on all those sentries.
And then you could even expand your options out of what happens while cleaning up your play. Stuff like "Reaper vs no reaper: if he goes gas and doesn’t go reaper, get one cannon per mineral line." can be simplified to "If he goes gas and doesn't go reaper, keep your oracles at home to help counter" because things like "A single cannon cannot take down all the hellions before they roast half your probes" wouldn't apply as 2 oracles have like 4 times the DPS to a hellions than a cannon. The Oracles have nice flexibility in the early game and maybe midgame for revelation (approaching an army and cutting it off is super easy if you already know where it is), but the detection component is pretty flimsy. Observers as a whole are much better because they are constant detection and it isn't such a huge target. You eventually need the Robo anyway for Immortals, Warp Prisms and a Colossus transition. If you want to use Oracles they need to be a specific part of the opener, rather than a mix-in to replace Robo whenever you might get it. One of the strengths of Oracles is being able to nicely handle mine, hellion, etc openers without taking too much damage, and keep the Terran in their base on any other sort of opener so constant pressure doesn't build up throughout the game. I open Oracle but I usually put my Robo and Templar Archives down at the same time, because as was mentioned earlier, harassment is pretty much a necessity with Storm builds nowadays, and you need something to be able to deal with mines if you get pushed back (as well as the tendency for the Terran to get marauder heavy), and Immortals are a nice choice. I get the composition that you are going for, but what happens if the Terran scouts the Immortals, instantly knows you are playing a Templar style, and just goes 5-rax Reactored Mines/Medivacs balls to the wall aggression? I just don't see that composition dealing well with the style. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's really hard to go Oracle -> Charge -> Immortals +Templar + Storm and still have enough gas for well-timed upgrades. I'm just theorycrafting, but I have a hard time believing that you can keep up with the firepower available to a decently micro'd Terran army with equal or better upgrades and half-decent micro.
The problem isn't really the gas or the lack of upgrades in templar styles. As I mentioned earlier, most templar builds go single forge anyway because you don't need the attack upgrade as much. In addition, charge and immortals are fairly gas inexpensive (because charge obviously relates directly to mineral only units). THE PROBLEM is that 1) templar are actually mostly useless if they don't have energy (minor problem because if you're really good, you can slowly accumulate archons) and 2) it's IMPOSSIBLE to keep from hemorrhaging units to the mine push, the drops, etc., etc. And it's soooooooooooooooo hard to keep detection in all the right places at once and not get it sniped.
The point is, it's not hard to afford the composition, but because you're constantly bleeding units and can never get an overwhelming army/storm advantage, you slowly just starve out and die until the Terran can overrun. The only real way around this (aside from just hoping your opponent will play badly and very passively) is to keep up constant harassment in the form of storm drops, zealot drops/runbys, and DTs. This is the only way to stay even on the economy/general army size as well as keep the pressure off your third base and prevent the snowball factor.
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EPT
