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On June 04 2013 02:49 Markwerf wrote:This build seems pretty much better off a FFE than this. FFE let's it hit harder and faster, it's a bit of a misconception that gateway first builds tech faster, they only get warpgate tech faster everything else is much later because your second gas is late and you have to get msc+warpgate tech going before getting tech.
Off a FFE this can hit as early as 7:30, the problem is just that zergs are way more used to play against FFE and hiding your strat is harder to do with FFE. The build is much more streamlined doing it off FFE but it's not too hard for Z to see the forge being chronoboosted and have the appropiate roach response of a decent 3 base, 45ish drone economy.
Not true.
On June 04 2013 02:49 Markwerf wrote:
The wins i saw here though were just zergs playing a bit weird against gateway expands which many still have to figure out. Granted, gateway expands are much harder to read and react to still. Many players seem to make large amount of speedlings preemptively against gateway expands, perhaps because they think they can do a runby or need them to hold their third but that is what's killing themselves against you.
It will take a while but zergs will figure out the gateway expands more, I think they already do in PL and protoss mostly return to FFE or standard stargate after gateway first. Basically zerg just needs to get speed a bit faster to deal with the naniwa 4 gate pressure on the third (you only need speedlings against that) and scout for a forge to see they need roaches.
You can't hold your 3rd vs naniwa 4gate with speedlings only. Unless you're plan to snipe the probe that will make the proxy pylon, which is not always possible and unsafe to rely on.
On June 04 2013 02:49 Markwerf wrote:
There are basically 2 openings for P which differ in the potential all-ins that can follow:
- FFE all-ins pretty much never hit before 7:40 because warpgate just finishes that late. They can however hit much harder at that time because they can easily drop tech the moment the cybercore finishes and thus actually have tech ready the moment WG finishes. So an all-in of FFE is 7:40 at the earliest (some +1 zealot timing) but can be as late as 9:30 (soultrain and other funky all-ins) which can fairly easily be spotted by checking forge, gas timings and the tech building itself since it takes time before P has a stalker out.
- Gateway first all-ins can hit earlier because wg finishes faster, you can pretty much 4 gate at 6:30 (naniwa style) but tech all-ins like +1 timings or stuff involving robo/stargate/twilight hit later because the tech itself or the forge is actually quite late because the wall has to be completed first. Any timing including +1 hits at 8:30 at the earliest I think and timings involving lot's of sentries are pretty much nonexistant.
You are very wrong here. I'll prove it with my next guide, don't feel like explaining it to you now.
On June 04 2013 02:49 Markwerf wrote:
The variance on aggressive gateway openings is just a bit bigger meaning zergs need to differ their timings a bit. Get gas and lingspeed earlier but there is no need for such a fast roach warren (7:20 is fine really). The early aggressive timings don't include +1 anyway and can be beaten with pure speedling easily, for the later timings you have roaches in time. Basically instead of 6 minute double gas you want something like early single gas and very late second+third gas, for the rest you can play pretty much the same getting your third slightly later than the classic 3 hatch play against FFE.
However most zergs don't really do that yet and take very late thirds now when seeing gateway or try some weird busts or produce large amount of lings for apparently no reason. I guess it's mostly the result of 1) many protoss not knowing the gateway opening well yet and thus dieing to these strange attacks making zergs think that's a good way to play and 2) zergs being afraid you can't hold the third if you get it early. You can and you should get it fast really, getting it late only makes it harder to hold these delayed pushes like in this guide.
You underestimate the power of gateway pressure. I recommend watching vods of naniwa. Even 0/0 zealots are extremely good vs lings, especially with timewarp.
I apreciate you trying to find better timings for strategies. But please don't post unless you have replays/vods or build orders if you're going to claim other build orders aree better.
On June 04 2013 07:18 FlyingBeer wrote:
Lots of great information in this post. I get so annoyed by people who claim that gate-core expand forces Zerg to do a million things before they can take a third. 7:40 seems kind of early for a FFE. Are you sure that's accurate? I remember BabyKnight used to do a +1 4gate off of FFE, and that hit at 7:30, but that's with 1 less gateway, and no robo or warp prism, and his build always struck me as pretty close to optimal.
But it does force zerg to do a bunch of different things before they can take a 3rd. It seems you have no idea how much gateway expands lets you customize timings to the second and make it harder for the zerg to scout. Zerg would have to send the 2nd overlord on a different path to avoid getting killed by a stalker. With the mothership core, just being on the highground with your overlord won't save it anymore. This means a delayed 2nd overlord. I want to go into more detail on how much more protoss can do with gateway expand but I would be typing all night. It seems like you just play the meta-game and don't think beyong that. From your build order below I wouldn't even think you're a protoss or zerg player.
On June 04 2013 07:18 FlyingBeer wrote:
The fastest time for this build is executed off a 1 gate, 1 gas expand. You can beat JayPower's time by more than a minute using that. Here's what SCFusion gave me:
9 Build Pylon
11 Chrono Boost Nexus
12 Chrono Boost Nexus
15 Build Assimilator
15 Chrono Boost Nexus
15 Build Gateway
15 (Scouting worker sent)
17 Build Nexus
18 2 * Move Probe To Gas
18 Build Pylon
18 Build Cybernetics Core
19 Chrono Boost Nexus
19 Move Probe To Gas
20 Build Zealot
22 Build Assimilator
23 Chrono Boost Cybernetics Core
24 Build Forge
24 3 * Move Probe To Gas
24 Research Warp Gate Transformation
26 Build Sentry
28 Chrono Boost Cybernetics Core
30 Research Ground Weapons 1
31 Move Probe To Minerals
31 (Scouting worker returns)
31 Build Robotics Facility
31 5 * Move Probe To Minerals
31 2 * Chrono Boost Forge
31 4 * Build Gateway
33 2 * Build Pylon
33 Chrono Boost Forge
37 Chrono Boost Robotics Facility
37 Build Warp Prism
40 Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
41 Chrono Boost Forge
41 3 * Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
41 Chrono Boost Robotics Facility
41 Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
41 4 * Build Zealot
Waypoint 3 satisfied:
6:56.08: 341M 0G 49/ 52S
Income: 1412M 0G
Buildings: 2 Nexus 4 Pylon 2 Assimilator 5 Warp Gate 1 Forge 1 Cybernetics Core 1 Robotics Facility
Units: 35 Probe 5 Zealot 1 Sentry 1 Warp Prism
Research: Ground Weapons 1 Warp Gate Transformation
You won't get below 7:00 since you'll never be able to hit your timings as perfectly as SCFusion, but it's certainly possible to get the attack going well before 7:30. If against a 2-basing player, you may need to squeeze in a 2nd sentry somewhere if you suspect a baneling bust to give yourself enough forcefields until warp gate research finishes. I'll upload a replay or two later.
About your build order.
- Chronoboost on the nexus at 11 and 12 supply? how does that work?
- I don't think you have thought about early pools. You go 15 gate (with a gas first on 15 but only put 2 on it (wtf?)) then make a zealot at 20.
- Where's the mothership core? You go zealot at 20, sentry at 26 and you don't wall off until 31. (unless you're going to put both forge and robo in your wall which makes it easy to see whats going on). No shit you'll die to a baneling bust. You will quite litteraly die to any push.
- You're missing 3 gateways.
Please stop posting things like this. This is a strategy forum, not a make-a-build-order forum. Where are the moderators?
EPT
