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On May 17 2013 23:19 ARze wrote:
Hi Jay,
I've been experimenting a lot with Gate-expands lately (as I'm sure most Protosses have been).
Really like this build, I've hed tremendous success with it following your style.
Just a couple of questions, if you see some roach would you warp in some stalkers to help, then pick some of them up with warp prism if a retreat is necessary?
Also what is the best response if you scout an ultralisk cavern (he had 1/1 lings trying to get 2/2 ling ultra leenock style), better to go Immortal archon or colossus gateway?
Usually when I see roaches I use the warp prism just to harass with some zealots (like I said in the guide). But when I feel the roach count is too low, I warp in stalker to finish the game right away. If you let him get away with defending the zealot attack with very few roaches, the immortal follow-up will not work most likely.
I prefer getting some colossus to deal with mass ling (and dealing with potential ling infestor or ling hydra attacks). Then add in more immortals and tech to archons if he's going for ultras. I think MVP.Swagger vs FXO.Leenock game 1 was a perferct example of how to deal with it(and how I prefer how to play PvZ). http://www.gomtv.net/2013wcs1/vod/80411/?set=1
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very brainless yet effective build. im picking it up ^^
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United States4883 Posts
I think this is really sort of an old build (+ MsC). It's interesting to see how SC2 has kind of come full circle in this matchup; Protoss's are playing a lot with 2-base all-ins and zerg's are learning that they can't delay their gases as much as they used to. It's like everyone's going back to the way they used to play in the end of 2011.
Still, with time warp + recall, it's a completely different game! So, I'm liking all of these new heavy gateway pressure openings into tech.
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Thanks jaypower here have a trophy!
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zfjiJjU.jpg)
I would let a probe ride the prism too and make pylons in his base just to add more panic as zealots come from all directions. Another prism would work too.
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ive been using this build as my standard for about 3 weeks(if i see a fast 3rd, i do nani's 4 gate though). the thing i love is how incredibly flexible it is even if zerg responds well. some tips here...
-if you you're in the attack and you see a few roaches pop out, if you attack in one place the roaches will probably win. i suggest sending zealots to every base and do as much economic damage you can(workers, hatcheries, queens). if you're doing damage and his roach count isn't that high, kill him will stalker reinforcements
-you probably want 9 gates in total if your macro isn't really good
-once you see roaches, i think it's beneficial to add a couple of gas geisers
-if you're doing the attack and you see a lot of roaches, i wouldn't even warp in any more. just start immortal production, add geisers, a couple cannons at your front, and try to deny/put pressure on the 3rd or anywhere else you can. if the zerg commits to an attack then you will do damage with your zealots and reinforcments and your immortals/cannons should hold the front.
-don't be afraid to warp in sentries and forcefield him out of his main while taking out his tech
-have fun with the build and all it's branches. just because it is held off doesn't mean that you're dead. your warp prism micro and decision making can really punish zerg for leaving their base or not having great defense at every base.
if someone wants me to upload replays of me doing the build i can do that
edit: get 2 warp prisms!
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On May 28 2013 03:24 woreyour wrote:Thanks jaypower here have a trophy! I would let a probe ride the prism too and make pylons in his base just to add more panic as zealots come from all directions. Another prism would work too.
:D I sure love me some zerg rage.
On May 28 2013 04:15 aldochillbro wrote:
ive been using this build as my standard for about 3 weeks(if i see a fast 3rd, i do nani's 4 gate though). the thing i love is how incredibly flexible it is even if zerg responds well. some tips here...
-if you you're in the attack and you see a few roaches pop out, if you attack in one place the roaches will probably win. i suggest sending zealots to every base and do as much economic damage you can(workers, hatcheries, queens). if you're doing damage and his roach count isn't that high, kill him will stalker reinforcements
-you probably want 9 gates in total if your macro isn't really good
-once you see roaches, i think it's beneficial to add a couple of gas geisers
-if you're doing the attack and you see a lot of roaches, i wouldn't even warp in any more. just start immortal production, add geisers, a couple cannons at your front, and try to deny/put pressure on the 3rd or anywhere else you can. if the zerg commits to an attack then you will do damage with your zealots and reinforcments and your immortals/cannons should hold the front.
-don't be afraid to warp in sentries and forcefield him out of his main while taking out his tech
-have fun with the build and all it's branches. just because it is held off doesn't mean that you're dead. your warp prism micro and decision making can really punish zerg for leaving their base or not having great defense at every base.
if someone wants me to upload replays of me doing the build i can do that
edit: get 2 warp prisms!
Those are some great tips, some a bit risky like warping in sentries with the attack. But it definitely increases the harrasment potential. I'll add these in the OP if you don't mind
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ya no problem. the warping in with sentries is something i only do if the opportunity arises so it's very situational because a zerg with good defense should have some units in the main. this is more of a counter tactic if he decides to try to move out of his base or does something like send all his units to defend a base under siege by zealots. another good tip(assuming he held off the aggression and you have the warp prism still) is to leave your msc in the attack path to your base just so you know when he commits to an attack.
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This will be more fun when they buff the wp
Here
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/IfKc0AD.jpg)
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Nice build, thank you for sharing.
However, I have a hard time seeing the benefits of this build over the 2 immortal zealot all-in from Naniwa. Basically, this build favors 4 extra zealots and an early sentry over 2 immortals. In my opinion, the immortals are better in any situation except maybe vs pure speedlings. And even then I believe most zergs will rush to roaches as soon as possible, so the immortals will come in handy eventually.
So, my question is therefore: in which situation will you chose this build over the immortal-zealot all-in?
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I used it a lot of times. This build has the highest ragequit % i've ever seen
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This build seems pretty much better off a FFE than this. FFE let's it hit harder and faster, it's a bit of a misconception that gateway first builds tech faster, they only get warpgate tech faster everything else is much later because your second gas is late and you have to get msc+warpgate tech going before getting tech.
Off a FFE this can hit as early as 7:30, the problem is just that zergs are way more used to play against FFE and hiding your strat is harder to do with FFE. The build is much more streamlined doing it off FFE but it's not too hard for Z to see the forge being chronoboosted and have the appropiate roach response of a decent 3 base, 45ish drone economy.
The wins i saw here though were just zergs playing a bit weird against gateway expands which many still have to figure out. Granted, gateway expands are much harder to read and react to still. Many players seem to make large amount of speedlings preemptively against gateway expands, perhaps because they think they can do a runby or need them to hold their third but that is what's killing themselves against you.
It will take a while but zergs will figure out the gateway expands more, I think they already do in PL and protoss mostly return to FFE or standard stargate after gateway first. Basically zerg just needs to get speed a bit faster to deal with the naniwa 4 gate pressure on the third (you only need speedlings against that) and scout for a forge to see they need roaches.
There are basically 2 openings for P which differ in the potential all-ins that can follow:
- FFE all-ins pretty much never hit before 7:40 because warpgate just finishes that late. They can however hit much harder at that time because they can easily drop tech the moment the cybercore finishes and thus actually have tech ready the moment WG finishes. So an all-in of FFE is 7:40 at the earliest (some +1 zealot timing) but can be as late as 9:30 (soultrain and other funky all-ins) which can fairly easily be spotted by checking forge, gas timings and the tech building itself since it takes time before P has a stalker out.
- Gateway first all-ins can hit earlier because wg finishes faster, you can pretty much 4 gate at 6:30 (naniwa style) but tech all-ins like +1 timings or stuff involving robo/stargate/twilight hit later because the tech itself or the forge is actually quite late because the wall has to be completed first. Any timing including +1 hits at 8:30 at the earliest I think and timings involving lot's of sentries are pretty much nonexistant.
The variance on aggressive gateway openings is just a bit bigger meaning zergs need to differ their timings a bit. Get gas and lingspeed earlier but there is no need for such a fast roach warren (7:20 is fine really). The early aggressive timings don't include +1 anyway and can be beaten with pure speedling easily, for the later timings you have roaches in time. Basically instead of 6 minute double gas you want something like early single gas and very late second+third gas, for the rest you can play pretty much the same getting your third slightly later than the classic 3 hatch play against FFE.
However most zergs don't really do that yet and take very late thirds now when seeing gateway or try some weird busts or produce large amount of lings for apparently no reason. I guess it's mostly the result of 1) many protoss not knowing the gateway opening well yet and thus dieing to these strange attacks making zergs think that's a good way to play and 2) zergs being afraid you can't hold the third if you get it early. You can and you should get it fast really, getting it late only makes it harder to hold these delayed pushes like in this guide.
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I'm Zerg and reading this thread is making my heart beat faster. It's a good thing that I'm not at the level where Protoss seem to pull such stuff yet. ^^
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thanks for the build gunna try it out
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On June 03 2013 19:45 Vardaine wrote:
Nice build, thank you for sharing.
However, I have a hard time seeing the benefits of this build over the 2 immortal zealot all-in from Naniwa. Basically, this build favors 4 extra zealots and an early sentry over 2 immortals. In my opinion, the immortals are better in any situation except maybe vs pure speedlings. And even then I believe most zergs will rush to roaches as soon as possible, so the immortals will come in handy eventually.
So, my question is therefore: in which situation will you chose this build over the immortal-zealot all-in?
Maybe on certain maps, or if you're in a BoX and wanna pull some mindgames/make the zerg tilt 
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On June 04 2013 02:49 Markwerf wrote:
This build seems pretty much better off a FFE than this. FFE let's it hit harder and faster, it's a bit of a misconception that gateway first builds tech faster, they only get warpgate tech faster everything else is much later because your second gas is late and you have to get msc+warpgate tech going before getting tech.
Off a FFE this can hit as early as 7:30, the problem is just that zergs are way more used to play against FFE and hiding your strat is harder to do with FFE. The build is much more streamlined doing it off FFE but it's not too hard for Z to see the forge being chronoboosted and have the appropiate roach response of a decent 3 base, 45ish drone economy.
The wins i saw here though were just zergs playing a bit weird against gateway expands which many still have to figure out. Granted, gateway expands are much harder to read and react to still. Many players seem to make large amount of speedlings preemptively against gateway expands, perhaps because they think they can do a runby or need them to hold their third but that is what's killing themselves against you.
It will take a while but zergs will figure out the gateway expands more, I think they already do in PL and protoss mostly return to FFE or standard stargate after gateway first. Basically zerg just needs to get speed a bit faster to deal with the naniwa 4 gate pressure on the third (you only need speedlings against that) and scout for a forge to see they need roaches.
There are basically 2 openings for P which differ in the potential all-ins that can follow:
- FFE all-ins pretty much never hit before 7:40 because warpgate just finishes that late. They can however hit much harder at that time because they can easily drop tech the moment the cybercore finishes and thus actually have tech ready the moment WG finishes. So an all-in of FFE is 7:40 at the earliest (some +1 zealot timing) but can be as late as 9:30 (soultrain and other funky all-ins) which can fairly easily be spotted by checking forge, gas timings and the tech building itself since it takes time before P has a stalker out.
- Gateway first all-ins can hit earlier because wg finishes faster, you can pretty much 4 gate at 6:30 (naniwa style) but tech all-ins like +1 timings or stuff involving robo/stargate/twilight hit later because the tech itself or the forge is actually quite late because the wall has to be completed first. Any timing including +1 hits at 8:30 at the earliest I think and timings involving lot's of sentries are pretty much nonexistant.
The variance on aggressive gateway openings is just a bit bigger meaning zergs need to differ their timings a bit. Get gas and lingspeed earlier but there is no need for such a fast roach warren (7:20 is fine really). The early aggressive timings don't include +1 anyway and can be beaten with pure speedling easily, for the later timings you have roaches in time. Basically instead of 6 minute double gas you want something like early single gas and very late second+third gas, for the rest you can play pretty much the same getting your third slightly later than the classic 3 hatch play against FFE.
However most zergs don't really do that yet and take very late thirds now when seeing gateway or try some weird busts or produce large amount of lings for apparently no reason. I guess it's mostly the result of 1) many protoss not knowing the gateway opening well yet and thus dieing to these strange attacks making zergs think that's a good way to play and 2) zergs being afraid you can't hold the third if you get it early. You can and you should get it fast really, getting it late only makes it harder to hold these delayed pushes like in this guide.
Lots of great information in this post. I get so annoyed by people who claim that gate-core expand forces Zerg to do a million things before they can take a third. 7:40 seems kind of early for a FFE. Are you sure that's accurate? I remember BabyKnight used to do a +1 4gate off of FFE, and that hit at 7:30, but that's with 1 less gateway, and no robo or warp prism, and his build always struck me as pretty close to optimal.
The fastest time for this build is executed off a 1 gate, 1 gas expand. You can beat JayPower's time by more than a minute using that. Here's what SCFusion gave me:
9 Build Pylon
11 Chrono Boost Nexus
12 Chrono Boost Nexus
15 Build Assimilator
15 Chrono Boost Nexus
15 Build Gateway
15 (Scouting worker sent)
17 Build Nexus
18 2 * Move Probe To Gas
18 Build Pylon
18 Build Cybernetics Core
19 Chrono Boost Nexus
19 Move Probe To Gas
20 Build Zealot
22 Build Assimilator
23 Chrono Boost Cybernetics Core
24 Build Forge
24 3 * Move Probe To Gas
24 Research Warp Gate Transformation
26 Build Sentry
28 Chrono Boost Cybernetics Core
30 Research Ground Weapons 1
31 Move Probe To Minerals
31 (Scouting worker returns)
31 Build Robotics Facility
31 5 * Move Probe To Minerals
31 2 * Chrono Boost Forge
31 4 * Build Gateway
33 2 * Build Pylon
33 Chrono Boost Forge
37 Chrono Boost Robotics Facility
37 Build Warp Prism
40 Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
41 Chrono Boost Forge
41 3 * Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
41 Chrono Boost Robotics Facility
41 Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
41 4 * Build Zealot
Waypoint 3 satisfied:
6:56.08: 341M 0G 49/ 52S
Income: 1412M 0G
Buildings: 2 Nexus 4 Pylon 2 Assimilator 5 Warp Gate 1 Forge 1 Cybernetics Core 1 Robotics Facility
Units: 35 Probe 5 Zealot 1 Sentry 1 Warp Prism
Research: Ground Weapons 1 Warp Gate Transformation
You won't get below 7:00 since you'll never be able to hit your timings as perfectly as SCFusion, but it's certainly possible to get the attack going well before 7:30. If against a 2-basing player, you may need to squeeze in a 2nd sentry somewhere if you suspect a baneling bust to give yourself enough forcefields until warp gate research finishes. I'll upload a replay or two later.
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On June 03 2013 19:45 Vardaine wrote:
Nice build, thank you for sharing.
However, I have a hard time seeing the benefits of this build over the 2 immortal zealot all-in from Naniwa. Basically, this build favors 4 extra zealots and an early sentry over 2 immortals. In my opinion, the immortals are better in any situation except maybe vs pure speedlings. And even then I believe most zergs will rush to roaches as soon as possible, so the immortals will come in handy eventually.
So, my question is therefore: in which situation will you chose this build over the immortal-zealot all-in?
This build is a varitation. When done properly it should hit slightly earlier. When the fast +1/+1 speedlings (with delayed roach warren) style was very popular, every second you can hit earlier counts.
On June 04 2013 02:49 Markwerf wrote:
This build seems pretty much better off a FFE than this. FFE let's it hit harder and faster, it's a bit of a misconception that gateway first builds tech faster, they only get warpgate tech faster everything else is much later because your second gas is late and you have to get msc+warpgate tech going before getting tech.
Off a FFE this can hit as early as 7:30, the problem is just that zergs are way more used to play against FFE and hiding your strat is harder to do with FFE. The build is much more streamlined doing it off FFE but it's not too hard for Z to see the forge being chronoboosted and have the appropiate roach response of a decent 3 base, 45ish drone economy.
Not true.
On June 04 2013 02:49 Markwerf wrote:
The wins i saw here though were just zergs playing a bit weird against gateway expands which many still have to figure out. Granted, gateway expands are much harder to read and react to still. Many players seem to make large amount of speedlings preemptively against gateway expands, perhaps because they think they can do a runby or need them to hold their third but that is what's killing themselves against you.
It will take a while but zergs will figure out the gateway expands more, I think they already do in PL and protoss mostly return to FFE or standard stargate after gateway first. Basically zerg just needs to get speed a bit faster to deal with the naniwa 4 gate pressure on the third (you only need speedlings against that) and scout for a forge to see they need roaches.
You can't hold your 3rd vs naniwa 4gate with speedlings only. Unless you're plan to snipe the probe that will make the proxy pylon, which is not always possible and unsafe to rely on.
On June 04 2013 02:49 Markwerf wrote:
There are basically 2 openings for P which differ in the potential all-ins that can follow:
- FFE all-ins pretty much never hit before 7:40 because warpgate just finishes that late. They can however hit much harder at that time because they can easily drop tech the moment the cybercore finishes and thus actually have tech ready the moment WG finishes. So an all-in of FFE is 7:40 at the earliest (some +1 zealot timing) but can be as late as 9:30 (soultrain and other funky all-ins) which can fairly easily be spotted by checking forge, gas timings and the tech building itself since it takes time before P has a stalker out.
- Gateway first all-ins can hit earlier because wg finishes faster, you can pretty much 4 gate at 6:30 (naniwa style) but tech all-ins like +1 timings or stuff involving robo/stargate/twilight hit later because the tech itself or the forge is actually quite late because the wall has to be completed first. Any timing including +1 hits at 8:30 at the earliest I think and timings involving lot's of sentries are pretty much nonexistant.
You are very wrong here. I'll prove it with my next guide, don't feel like explaining it to you now.
On June 04 2013 02:49 Markwerf wrote:
The variance on aggressive gateway openings is just a bit bigger meaning zergs need to differ their timings a bit. Get gas and lingspeed earlier but there is no need for such a fast roach warren (7:20 is fine really). The early aggressive timings don't include +1 anyway and can be beaten with pure speedling easily, for the later timings you have roaches in time. Basically instead of 6 minute double gas you want something like early single gas and very late second+third gas, for the rest you can play pretty much the same getting your third slightly later than the classic 3 hatch play against FFE.
However most zergs don't really do that yet and take very late thirds now when seeing gateway or try some weird busts or produce large amount of lings for apparently no reason. I guess it's mostly the result of 1) many protoss not knowing the gateway opening well yet and thus dieing to these strange attacks making zergs think that's a good way to play and 2) zergs being afraid you can't hold the third if you get it early. You can and you should get it fast really, getting it late only makes it harder to hold these delayed pushes like in this guide.
You underestimate the power of gateway pressure. I recommend watching vods of naniwa. Even 0/0 zealots are extremely good vs lings, especially with timewarp.
I apreciate you trying to find better timings for strategies. But please don't post unless you have replays/vods or build orders if you're going to claim other build orders aree better.
On June 04 2013 07:18 FlyingBeer wrote:
Lots of great information in this post. I get so annoyed by people who claim that gate-core expand forces Zerg to do a million things before they can take a third. 7:40 seems kind of early for a FFE. Are you sure that's accurate? I remember BabyKnight used to do a +1 4gate off of FFE, and that hit at 7:30, but that's with 1 less gateway, and no robo or warp prism, and his build always struck me as pretty close to optimal.
But it does force zerg to do a bunch of different things before they can take a 3rd. It seems you have no idea how much gateway expands lets you customize timings to the second and make it harder for the zerg to scout. Zerg would have to send the 2nd overlord on a different path to avoid getting killed by a stalker. With the mothership core, just being on the highground with your overlord won't save it anymore. This means a delayed 2nd overlord. I want to go into more detail on how much more protoss can do with gateway expand but I would be typing all night. It seems like you just play the meta-game and don't think beyong that. From your build order below I wouldn't even think you're a protoss or zerg player.
On June 04 2013 07:18 FlyingBeer wrote:
The fastest time for this build is executed off a 1 gate, 1 gas expand. You can beat JayPower's time by more than a minute using that. Here's what SCFusion gave me:
9 Build Pylon
11 Chrono Boost Nexus
12 Chrono Boost Nexus
15 Build Assimilator
15 Chrono Boost Nexus
15 Build Gateway
15 (Scouting worker sent)
17 Build Nexus
18 2 * Move Probe To Gas
18 Build Pylon
18 Build Cybernetics Core
19 Chrono Boost Nexus
19 Move Probe To Gas
20 Build Zealot
22 Build Assimilator
23 Chrono Boost Cybernetics Core
24 Build Forge
24 3 * Move Probe To Gas
24 Research Warp Gate Transformation
26 Build Sentry
28 Chrono Boost Cybernetics Core
30 Research Ground Weapons 1
31 Move Probe To Minerals
31 (Scouting worker returns)
31 Build Robotics Facility
31 5 * Move Probe To Minerals
31 2 * Chrono Boost Forge
31 4 * Build Gateway
33 2 * Build Pylon
33 Chrono Boost Forge
37 Chrono Boost Robotics Facility
37 Build Warp Prism
40 Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
41 Chrono Boost Forge
41 3 * Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
41 Chrono Boost Robotics Facility
41 Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
41 4 * Build Zealot
Waypoint 3 satisfied:
6:56.08: 341M 0G 49/ 52S
Income: 1412M 0G
Buildings: 2 Nexus 4 Pylon 2 Assimilator 5 Warp Gate 1 Forge 1 Cybernetics Core 1 Robotics Facility
Units: 35 Probe 5 Zealot 1 Sentry 1 Warp Prism
Research: Ground Weapons 1 Warp Gate Transformation
You won't get below 7:00 since you'll never be able to hit your timings as perfectly as SCFusion, but it's certainly possible to get the attack going well before 7:30. If against a 2-basing player, you may need to squeeze in a 2nd sentry somewhere if you suspect a baneling bust to give yourself enough forcefields until warp gate research finishes. I'll upload a replay or two later.
About your build order.
- Chronoboost on the nexus at 11 and 12 supply? how does that work?
- I don't think you have thought about early pools. You go 15 gate (with a gas first on 15 but only put 2 on it (wtf?)) then make a zealot at 20.
- Where's the mothership core? You go zealot at 20, sentry at 26 and you don't wall off until 31. (unless you're going to put both forge and robo in your wall which makes it easy to see whats going on). No shit you'll die to a baneling bust. You will quite litteraly die to any push.
- You're missing 3 gateways.
Please stop posting things like this. This is a strategy forum, not a make-a-build-order forum. Where are the moderators?
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On June 04 2013 08:21 JayPower wrote:
About your build order.
- Chronoboost on the nexus at 11 and 12 supply? how does that work?
- I don't think you have thought about early pools. You go 15 gate (with a gas first on 15 but only put 2 on it (wtf?)) then make a zealot at 20.
- Where's the mothership core? You go zealot at 20, sentry at 26 and you don't wall off until 31. (unless you're going to put both forge and robo in your wall which makes it easy to see whats going on). No shit you'll die to a baneling bust. You will quite litteraly die to any push.
- You're missing 3 gateways.
Please stop posting things like this. This is a strategy forum, not a make-a-build-order forum. Where are the moderators?
Well the BO was from SCFusion, which just gives you the fastest possible timing, but doesn't take into consideration other things, such as not dying to any ling pressure, etc.
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On June 04 2013 08:39 TRAvian wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2013 08:21 JayPower wrote:
About your build order.
- Chronoboost on the nexus at 11 and 12 supply? how does that work?
- I don't think you have thought about early pools. You go 15 gate (with a gas first on 15 but only put 2 on it (wtf?)) then make a zealot at 20.
- Where's the mothership core? You go zealot at 20, sentry at 26 and you don't wall off until 31. (unless you're going to put both forge and robo in your wall which makes it easy to see whats going on). No shit you'll die to a baneling bust. You will quite litteraly die to any push.
- You're missing 3 gateways.
Please stop posting things like this. This is a strategy forum, not a make-a-build-order forum. Where are the moderators? Well the BO was from SCFusion, which just gives you the fastest possible timing, but doesn't take into consideration other things, such as not dying to any ling pressure, etc.
So like I said. It doesn't belong on this forum, let alone in my thread.
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On June 04 2013 08:21 JayPower wrote:
About your build order.
- Chronoboost on the nexus at 11 and 12 supply? how does that work?
- I don't think you have thought about early pools. You go 15 gate (with a gas first on 15 but only put 2 on it (wtf?)) then make a zealot at 20.
- Where's the mothership core? You go zealot at 20, sentry at 26 and you don't wall off until 31. (unless you're going to put both forge and robo in your wall which makes it easy to see whats going on). No shit you'll die to a baneling bust. You will quite litteraly die to any push.
- You're missing 3 gateways.
Please stop posting things like this. This is a strategy forum, not a make-a-build-order forum. Where are the moderators?
One of my replays is of a speedling into baneling bust defense. I still beat your time even with all the pressure I'm facing.
I'm assuming a cybernetics core + forge wall-off. The wall-off is completed before yours is. Wide ramps will require an extra gateway to wall-off, but this only slightly changes the build order timings.
The gateway can be built on 14 with zero consequences. The 15 timing is because it's direct from SCFusion, which has a few flaws. It can also be built on the standard 13, if you're willing to delay the chrono by like a second, which will delay the build by a second.
I don't use a mothership core, it only slightly increases the strength of the attack and significantly delays all your timings.
There are 5 gateways there, count them again.
Against hatch first, the earliest speedlings can come is at 5:00. The zealot and sentry will both be out by then, and a zealot plus sentry with a free forcefield can defend a ton of lings.
Replay of a 14 pool defense with Warp Prism and 5 Gates finishing at 7:45:
http://drop.sc/340066
My execution is quite poor. This was my first time executing the build. My gas timings are wrong and I get supply blocked at 44. Still, I'm beating you by 45 seconds despite all the pressure.
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JayPower vs. JayPower
On September 18 2012 06:04 JayPower wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 11:08 Ea wrote:
1. Since gateway builds have been recently appearing back in style, how do zergs approach these builds in terms of expanding? In other words, when is the 3rd hatch supposed to go down as opposed to the timing of the 3rd vs. FFE? 1. As soon as you have your gas going for ling speed or roaches (preferably ling speed). This however is if you're sure your opponent is expanding. If you suspect your opponent might be 4gating or doing another all-in/heavy pressure build, you really want to wait a bit with that 3rd hatch and scout more. For example send in the overlord scout to scout your opponents base or use zerlings to grab the watchtowers and look around your base checking for pylons to be placed. On a lot of maps you have a nice spot for your overlord to sit safe and check for the natural nexus.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361740¤tpage=3#51
On June 04 2013 08:21 JayPower wrote:
But it does force zerg to do a bunch of different things before they can take a 3rd. It seems you have no idea how much gateway expands lets you customize timings to the second and make it harder for the zerg to scout. Zerg would have to send the 2nd overlord on a different path to avoid getting killed by a stalker. With the mothership core, just being on the highground with your overlord won't save it anymore. This means a delayed 2nd overlord. I want to go into more detail on how much more protoss can do with gateway expand but I would be typing all night. It seems like you just play the meta-game and don't think beyong that. From your build order below I wouldn't even think you're a protoss or zerg player.
The first quote is from your excellent guide on Naniwa's gate-core expand into stargate. In that comment, which I agree with, you're saying that the only thing a Zerg has to do different against a gate-core expand before they can take a third is get an earlier gas for ling speed. Now you're saying that the Zerg has to do a bunch of different unspecified things before they can take a third.
I also don't know what you mean about using stalkers to deny overlord scouting. Your build doesn't include a stalker, just one sentry.
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EPT
