Hello TeamLiquid, I’m JayPower. I’m a grandmaster protoss from team UCAP and this is my first HoTS guide I’m bringing you today. It is a PvZ build I’ve developed over the last couple of weeks and is very similair to naniwa’s 2 immortal +1 zealot drop. The reason I’m making this guide is because I think its very useful to know different builds that look extremely similair but are quite different. The build is pretty straight forward so this guide won’t be very long. If you still have questions, please ask them.
You start with a normal gateway expand (notice the simcity) + Show Spoiler +
. You make the nexus at 21 supply, followed by a mothershipcore and a zealot. (Don’t forget to make a fake zealot before you put down your nexus and see if zerglings are incoming, if there aren’t any incoming, you cancel the zealot+ Show Spoiler +
). After your mothershipcore and zealot are out, you start a sentry and start working on your wall on the low ground.+ Show Spoiler +
Since you aren’t scouting with a probe I recommend keeping a probe on the low ground so that you can make buildings really fast in you see a lot of zerglings incoming. Make sure you keep your mothershipcore a bit upfront of your wall so you can see them coming in time. Your will wall with 2 gateways.
On some maps you have to wall with 3 buildings. For this build you don’t need the 3rd gateway that fast but I recommend putting it down. You can fake 4gate pressure and you really want to have your forge in your main to make the heavily chronoboosted +1 attack not so obvious.
You want to get your forge right after your 2nd/3rd gateway and get +1 attack right away. Your next 100 gas will be going into a robo, make sure you have it located in a place where it’s not likely to be scouted.+ Show Spoiler +
I don’t really want to go over how to defend different zerg all-ins such as baneling busts or roach all-ins. You have 3gates, a mothershipcore and quick forge. You can even use hallucination to scout if you really want.
Please note that you’re still on 1 gas and making probes till you have 16 on both mineral lines. You don’t really need to stop mining gas, it’s always nice to have a warpin of stalkers available or have some gas banked for a immortal attack later. You can warp in a stalker to deny overlords from scouting scouting. + Show Spoiler +
When your robo is done you want to get a warp prism right away. Don’t forget to warp in 4 zealots from your warpgates to transport and add 5 extra gateways after that. + Show Spoiler +
you can follow the warp prism up with a observer to clear any creep the zerg may have. Don’t forget to move your mothershipcore around actively to deny zergling scouts and find a path for your warp prism to fly to your opponent’s base where overlords won't spot it.
Find a good spot for your warp prism to unload and warp in. You absolutely cannot have your warp prism sniped by queens, you can unload a bit away from his base if you must. + Show Spoiler +
The rest is pretty straight forward. You just keep warping in zealots and make sure queens don’t kill you warp prism. Don’t forget to bring your mothershipcore for timewarps, these can be extremely useful against roaches and queens. + Show Spoiler +
13 gate / 14 gas / 16 pylon / 18 cybercore 21 nexus 21 mothershipcore 23 zealot 25 pylon (on the low ground) 27 sentry 30 2x gate in your wall & forge in your main
~40 +1 attack & robo
After this you just make a warp prism when your robo is done, make sure you have 4 zealots warped in to transport and get 5gateways as soon as possible.
VS fast +1/+1 speedlings
Obviously this build is very good against that style. You usually have a timing window of about a minute before +1/+1 of the zerg kicks in so before that your zealots will absolutely shred through the speedlings. Even with the +1/+1 upgrades your zealots will do great.
In this game I played a bit more safely because we spawned in close positions. My opponent scouted my robo but not my forge so he wasn’t prepared very well.
This zerg actually got a quick overlord speed and scouted the chronoboost on the forge and saw the robo. He was pretty well prepared for the attack. As soon as I see roaches I use the warp prism to harass his bases and start working on an immortal attack.
I’m JayPower. 19 years old and from the Netherlands. I play Protoss at a grandmaster level. Sometimes I make guides and strategy videos but I haven’t made a lot of these with since the release of HoTS. I plan to pick this up again. I stream as well with commentary on http://www.twitch.tv/jaypower/. I’m part of team UCAP.
Please give me feedback on the guide. I really do appreciate any feedback, so please give me suggestions on how I can improve. Any questions about the guide are welcome too, I will try to answer them as soon as possible. It has been a while since I've made a guide so sorry if the quality isn't as high as usual. I know this is a very cheesy and gimmicky build, but since I've had a very high winrate with it (I think I'm 20-2 with it) I wanted to share it with you.
Wow thanks for the guides. I see you are a big Nani fan for copying his builds. You did that guide of his 1 gate expand into phoenix in which he STILL does. Thanks a ton. Hope you make many more guides soon. TL should make Jaypower blue.
I'm using a selfdeveloped warpprism-style myself. Even variations with two warpprism, which is pretty strong and rage-inducing on the zerg part too I do this off of an FEE though. However, yours hit around the 10minute mark, and I feel that is kinda late.
Do you use this on two player maps as well, or just on four player maps? Because fast mutas could be up in time. (Im just high diamond toss, playing masters too though). I didn't watch the replays (too lazy), just the twitch VOD.
Anyway, really nice to see a GM using a build that I've crafted myself too :-) GG!
On May 12 2013 18:28 JayIsImbA wrote: I'm using a selfdeveloped warpprism-style myself. Even variations with two warpprism, which is pretty strong and rage-inducing on the zerg part too I do this off of an FEE though. However, yours hit around the 10minute mark, and I feel that is kinda late.
Do you use this on two player maps as well, or just on four player maps? Because fast mutas could be up in time. (Im just high diamond toss, playing masters too though). I didn't watch the replays (too lazy), just the twitch VOD.
Anyway, really nice to see a GM using a build that I've crafted myself too :-) GG!
Mine doesn't hit around the 10 minute mark. I don't know where you got that from. All the games I provided (replays and FPVODs) the first warpin happens at 8:30 - 8:50 so that's well before any lair tech off 2 base.
On May 13 2013 02:29 iLevitate wrote: what zerg can do to counter this build?
Roaches to hold the initial drop, then hydras for the immortal follow up.
With such a late wall-off, what's your recommendation against unusual pool timings (10-14 pool with immediate 6+ ling pressure)?
Why gate-core expand instead of nexus first? The primary constraint on attack timing is the warp prism, and your robo is so late that going gate-core doesn't seem to confer any advantage.
I believe JayIsImbA was referring to the FPVOD where your attack was late because you were in cross-position on Whirlwind, and your warp prism move-out seemed slightly delayed for some reason.
On May 13 2013 06:58 iLevitate wrote: to the guy above me. I held 14/14 with only 2 probes lost with 2 zealots and ms. then later on I held 50 speedlings attack.
can you link a replay to that game ?
and by meaning 14/14 is 14 gas 14 pool ? cuz thats pretty hard to hold since you wont have your wall @ natural completed when first lings come in .
@ OP great guide is the build that naniwa used on neo planet S . you can sum it up as 8 gate +1 attack warp prism allin with only 1 gas and summoning only zealots of off 2 bases
On May 13 2013 08:23 FinaleSC2 wrote: Isn't this basically just a 7-gate all-inn with a warp prism and gate opening? Would'nt a regular FFE be stronger?
zerg defends easier if you forge fast expand and he take fast 3'd
if zerg played as greedy as they did against the ffe it would make sense to do it off ffe but they don't because that's stupid. as a matter of fact i see no reason not to fake agression with 1 probe 1 zealot 1 msc and recall out and sacrificing 1 pylon. i even think the msc would have it's energy back but idk
it remind me heavily to the zealot party build i saw in wol, the concep was the same but without robo and you just mine i think 50 or 150 gas and then stop (for WG and +1 or even 200 for a stalker) but it hit early, like 8 min i think and you dropped pylons, anyway good give, i wil try it
Yea I go for the warp prism full of sentries with a heap of warpgates to mass zealot warp-in while i forcefield the ramp to keep his army away while i distract it with a small ground force. Very effective
On May 12 2013 18:28 JayIsImbA wrote: I'm using a selfdeveloped warpprism-style myself. Even variations with two warpprism, which is pretty strong and rage-inducing on the zerg part too I do this off of an FEE though. However, yours hit around the 10minute mark, and I feel that is kinda late.
Do you use this on two player maps as well, or just on four player maps? Because fast mutas could be up in time. (Im just high diamond toss, playing masters too though). I didn't watch the replays (too lazy), just the twitch VOD.
Anyway, really nice to see a GM using a build that I've crafted myself too :-) GG!
Mine doesn't hit around the 10 minute mark. I don't know where you got that from. All the games I provided (replays and FPVODs) the first warpin happens at 8:30 - 8:50 so that's well before any lair tech off 2 base.
On May 13 2013 02:29 iLevitate wrote: what zerg can do to counter this build?
Roaches to hold the initial drop, then hydras for the immortal follow up.
Dude. In the VOD you linked yourself (vs. hAnfy) your first warp in (not the 4 initial zalots in the WP) happens at 8:52 in game time in the middle of the map. The first ling that dies to that warp-in happens at 9:35. Just look at your own VOD and verify the numbers.
Apart from that: he didn't scout you at all, not even with an ovi. he didn't build any roaches considering he may had that RW up when you hit. I think this only works if completely unscouted, that's why abandonned it for now, as it's almost impossible to deny the scouting with just a sentry.
On May 13 2013 04:57 FlyingBeer wrote: Not your best, but still a great guide.
With such a late wall-off, what's your recommendation against unusual pool timings (10-14 pool with immediate 6+ ling pressure)?
Why gate-core expand instead of nexus first? The primary constraint on attack timing is the warp prism, and your robo is so late that going gate-core doesn't seem to confer any advantage.
I've had some games where I cancel my fake zealot, put down the nexus and then a bit later 6 lings run in. This would have to be 14-15 pool though, any earlier pool hits before that. Usually they will focus down your pylon at the bottom of your ramp. You have to make a new pylon in your main base right away to not get supply blocked. After that you want to rebuild your wall at your natural as soon as possible. there may be more lings coming. Your priority here is to keep your natural. So having your zealot in your new wall to prevent more lings from comiming in is more imporant than killing the 6 lings in your main. You can just send your msc to chase them and micro your probes properly. Usually I deal with this quite easily since the zerg cuts more econ than you would think to make 6lings that early.
Your tech is faster with a gate-core expand.
On May 13 2013 09:54 aldochillbro wrote: if zerg played as greedy as they did against the ffe it would make sense to do it off ffe but they don't because that's stupid. as a matter of fact i see no reason not to fake agression with 1 probe 1 zealot 1 msc and recall out and sacrificing 1 pylon. i even think the msc would have it's energy back but idk
This is a good idea and definitely something I would recommend as well.
On May 12 2013 18:28 JayIsImbA wrote: I'm using a selfdeveloped warpprism-style myself. Even variations with two warpprism, which is pretty strong and rage-inducing on the zerg part too I do this off of an FEE though. However, yours hit around the 10minute mark, and I feel that is kinda late.
Do you use this on two player maps as well, or just on four player maps? Because fast mutas could be up in time. (Im just high diamond toss, playing masters too though). I didn't watch the replays (too lazy), just the twitch VOD.
Anyway, really nice to see a GM using a build that I've crafted myself too :-) GG!
Mine doesn't hit around the 10 minute mark. I don't know where you got that from. All the games I provided (replays and FPVODs) the first warpin happens at 8:30 - 8:50 so that's well before any lair tech off 2 base.
On May 13 2013 02:29 iLevitate wrote: what zerg can do to counter this build?
Roaches to hold the initial drop, then hydras for the immortal follow up.
Dude. In the VOD you linked yourself (vs. hAnfy) your first warp in (not the 4 initial zalots in the WP) happens at 8:52 in game time in the middle of the map. The first ling that dies to that warp-in happens at 9:35. Just look at your own VOD and verify the numbers.
Apart from that: he didn't scout you at all, not even with an ovi. he didn't build any roaches considering he may had that RW up when you hit. I think this only works if completely unscouted, that's why abandonned it for now, as it's almost impossible to deny the scouting with just a sentry.
So according to you, an attack hits as soon as you kill a unit with it? That would mean the attack would never hit if your opponent would go for a counter attack. I have looked at my own VOD and the replays I provided. The game in the VOD was slightly off, that is true. If you take a look at the replay vs lowely, I do my first warp in at 8:35 in his natural. Just take a look at this screenshot and verify the numbers.
Please take some time to actually read my guide before you comment on it. I've provided a replay where my opponent scouted and got roaches prepared in time. I explain what to do there.
It seems Naniwa only executes this build on Neo Planet S vs Quantic Hyun, Liquid TLO and Leenock. Do you know the reasoning beind that Jaypower? I get that gateway expands excel on 4 player maps because the current meta being gasless 3 hatch but he only does it on Neo planet S. I wonder why he doesnt do it on another 4 player map such as belshair vestige or Akilon Waste.
On May 13 2013 20:32 McHawk wrote: ehi thanks for the guide but how do you react vs swarm host?
Zelkia is right. Zerg can't get lair tech out. If they do they cut corners and they will die to the attack.
Here's replay I played in the DSCL against a guy that tried to go 2base swarmhost nydus extremely greedily (he would insta lose to 4gate pressure and he didn't scout). If i would've gotten my observer faster, he would've died to the attack right away.
On May 13 2013 20:47 Rickyvalle21 wrote: It seems Naniwa only executes this build on Neo Planet S vs Quantic Hyun, Liquid TLO and Leenock. Do you know the reasoning beind that Jaypower? I get that gateway expands excel on 4 player maps because the current meta being gasless 3 hatch but he only does it on Neo planet S. I wonder why he doesnt do it on another 4 player map such as belshair vestige or Akilon Waste.
The only reason I can think of is that a 3rd would be hard to take and it encourages 2base play. Another reason could be that there aren't watchtowers on the map and the air distance to your opponent's main is pretty close. The mothershipcore can easily scout if they have overlords in position to scout the warpprism and also force your opponent to scout more actively with his speedlings.
On May 13 2013 20:47 Rickyvalle21 wrote: It seems Naniwa only executes this build on Neo Planet S vs Quantic Hyun, Liquid TLO and Leenock. Do you know the reasoning beind that Jaypower? I get that gateway expands excel on 4 player maps because the current meta being gasless 3 hatch but he only does it on Neo planet S. I wonder why he doesnt do it on another 4 player map such as belshair vestige or Akilon Waste.
I think because he can wall off really easily and be safe, i do it on other maps too and I use the robo in the wall.
Ah, an all-in build, with no replays, explanations about deviations, or really anything...
Sorry to be grim, pissy, ect... but if you don't include reps of losses, people will use this build 2 or 3 times until their opponent holds it, they won't understand WHY it was held, and just stop doing it.
On May 14 2013 22:48 GleaM wrote: Ah, an all-in build, with no replays, explanations about deviations, or really anything...
Sorry to be grim, pissy, ect... but if you don't include reps of losses, people will use this build 2 or 3 times until their opponent holds it, they won't understand WHY it was held, and just stop doing it.
He clearly explains the build and he provides replays. Are you retarded? He even says that if the opponent is well fortified, then just go for an immortal timing.
I've been experimenting a lot with Gate-expands lately (as I'm sure most Protosses have been). Really like this build, I've hed tremendous success with it following your style.
Just a couple of questions, if you see some roach would you warp in some stalkers to help, then pick some of them up with warp prism if a retreat is necessary?
Also what is the best response if you scout an ultralisk cavern (he had 1/1 lings trying to get 2/2 ling ultra leenock style), better to go Immortal archon or colossus gateway?
I've been experimenting a lot with Gate-expands lately (as I'm sure most Protosses have been). Really like this build, I've hed tremendous success with it following your style.
Just a couple of questions, if you see some roach would you warp in some stalkers to help, then pick some of them up with warp prism if a retreat is necessary?
Also what is the best response if you scout an ultralisk cavern (he had 1/1 lings trying to get 2/2 ling ultra leenock style), better to go Immortal archon or colossus gateway?
Usually when I see roaches I use the warp prism just to harass with some zealots (like I said in the guide). But when I feel the roach count is too low, I warp in stalker to finish the game right away. If you let him get away with defending the zealot attack with very few roaches, the immortal follow-up will not work most likely.
I prefer getting some colossus to deal with mass ling (and dealing with potential ling infestor or ling hydra attacks). Then add in more immortals and tech to archons if he's going for ultras. I think MVP.Swagger vs FXO.Leenock game 1 was a perferct example of how to deal with it(and how I prefer how to play PvZ). http://www.gomtv.net/2013wcs1/vod/80411/?set=1
I think this is really sort of an old build (+ MsC). It's interesting to see how SC2 has kind of come full circle in this matchup; Protoss's are playing a lot with 2-base all-ins and zerg's are learning that they can't delay their gases as much as they used to. It's like everyone's going back to the way they used to play in the end of 2011.
Still, with time warp + recall, it's a completely different game! So, I'm liking all of these new heavy gateway pressure openings into tech.
I would let a probe ride the prism too and make pylons in his base just to add more panic as zealots come from all directions. Another prism would work too.
ive been using this build as my standard for about 3 weeks(if i see a fast 3rd, i do nani's 4 gate though). the thing i love is how incredibly flexible it is even if zerg responds well. some tips here...
-if you you're in the attack and you see a few roaches pop out, if you attack in one place the roaches will probably win. i suggest sending zealots to every base and do as much economic damage you can(workers, hatcheries, queens). if you're doing damage and his roach count isn't that high, kill him will stalker reinforcements
-you probably want 9 gates in total if your macro isn't really good
-once you see roaches, i think it's beneficial to add a couple of gas geisers
-if you're doing the attack and you see a lot of roaches, i wouldn't even warp in any more. just start immortal production, add geisers, a couple cannons at your front, and try to deny/put pressure on the 3rd or anywhere else you can. if the zerg commits to an attack then you will do damage with your zealots and reinforcments and your immortals/cannons should hold the front.
-don't be afraid to warp in sentries and forcefield him out of his main while taking out his tech
-have fun with the build and all it's branches. just because it is held off doesn't mean that you're dead. your warp prism micro and decision making can really punish zerg for leaving their base or not having great defense at every base.
if someone wants me to upload replays of me doing the build i can do that
On May 28 2013 03:24 woreyour wrote: Thanks jaypower here have a trophy!
I would let a probe ride the prism too and make pylons in his base just to add more panic as zealots come from all directions. Another prism would work too.
:D I sure love me some zerg rage.
On May 28 2013 04:15 aldochillbro wrote: ive been using this build as my standard for about 3 weeks(if i see a fast 3rd, i do nani's 4 gate though). the thing i love is how incredibly flexible it is even if zerg responds well. some tips here...
-if you you're in the attack and you see a few roaches pop out, if you attack in one place the roaches will probably win. i suggest sending zealots to every base and do as much economic damage you can(workers, hatcheries, queens). if you're doing damage and his roach count isn't that high, kill him will stalker reinforcements
-you probably want 9 gates in total if your macro isn't really good
-once you see roaches, i think it's beneficial to add a couple of gas geisers
-if you're doing the attack and you see a lot of roaches, i wouldn't even warp in any more. just start immortal production, add geisers, a couple cannons at your front, and try to deny/put pressure on the 3rd or anywhere else you can. if the zerg commits to an attack then you will do damage with your zealots and reinforcments and your immortals/cannons should hold the front.
-don't be afraid to warp in sentries and forcefield him out of his main while taking out his tech
-have fun with the build and all it's branches. just because it is held off doesn't mean that you're dead. your warp prism micro and decision making can really punish zerg for leaving their base or not having great defense at every base.
if someone wants me to upload replays of me doing the build i can do that
edit: get 2 warp prisms!
Those are some great tips, some a bit risky like warping in sentries with the attack. But it definitely increases the harrasment potential. I'll add these in the OP if you don't mind
ya no problem. the warping in with sentries is something i only do if the opportunity arises so it's very situational because a zerg with good defense should have some units in the main. this is more of a counter tactic if he decides to try to move out of his base or does something like send all his units to defend a base under siege by zealots. another good tip(assuming he held off the aggression and you have the warp prism still) is to leave your msc in the attack path to your base just so you know when he commits to an attack.
However, I have a hard time seeing the benefits of this build over the 2 immortal zealot all-in from Naniwa. Basically, this build favors 4 extra zealots and an early sentry over 2 immortals. In my opinion, the immortals are better in any situation except maybe vs pure speedlings. And even then I believe most zergs will rush to roaches as soon as possible, so the immortals will come in handy eventually.
So, my question is therefore: in which situation will you chose this build over the immortal-zealot all-in?
This build seems pretty much better off a FFE than this. FFE let's it hit harder and faster, it's a bit of a misconception that gateway first builds tech faster, they only get warpgate tech faster everything else is much later because your second gas is late and you have to get msc+warpgate tech going before getting tech. Off a FFE this can hit as early as 7:30, the problem is just that zergs are way more used to play against FFE and hiding your strat is harder to do with FFE. The build is much more streamlined doing it off FFE but it's not too hard for Z to see the forge being chronoboosted and have the appropiate roach response of a decent 3 base, 45ish drone economy.
The wins i saw here though were just zergs playing a bit weird against gateway expands which many still have to figure out. Granted, gateway expands are much harder to read and react to still. Many players seem to make large amount of speedlings preemptively against gateway expands, perhaps because they think they can do a runby or need them to hold their third but that is what's killing themselves against you. It will take a while but zergs will figure out the gateway expands more, I think they already do in PL and protoss mostly return to FFE or standard stargate after gateway first. Basically zerg just needs to get speed a bit faster to deal with the naniwa 4 gate pressure on the third (you only need speedlings against that) and scout for a forge to see they need roaches.
There are basically 2 openings for P which differ in the potential all-ins that can follow: - FFE all-ins pretty much never hit before 7:40 because warpgate just finishes that late. They can however hit much harder at that time because they can easily drop tech the moment the cybercore finishes and thus actually have tech ready the moment WG finishes. So an all-in of FFE is 7:40 at the earliest (some +1 zealot timing) but can be as late as 9:30 (soultrain and other funky all-ins) which can fairly easily be spotted by checking forge, gas timings and the tech building itself since it takes time before P has a stalker out. - Gateway first all-ins can hit earlier because wg finishes faster, you can pretty much 4 gate at 6:30 (naniwa style) but tech all-ins like +1 timings or stuff involving robo/stargate/twilight hit later because the tech itself or the forge is actually quite late because the wall has to be completed first. Any timing including +1 hits at 8:30 at the earliest I think and timings involving lot's of sentries are pretty much nonexistant.
The variance on aggressive gateway openings is just a bit bigger meaning zergs need to differ their timings a bit. Get gas and lingspeed earlier but there is no need for such a fast roach warren (7:20 is fine really). The early aggressive timings don't include +1 anyway and can be beaten with pure speedling easily, for the later timings you have roaches in time. Basically instead of 6 minute double gas you want something like early single gas and very late second+third gas, for the rest you can play pretty much the same getting your third slightly later than the classic 3 hatch play against FFE. However most zergs don't really do that yet and take very late thirds now when seeing gateway or try some weird busts or produce large amount of lings for apparently no reason. I guess it's mostly the result of 1) many protoss not knowing the gateway opening well yet and thus dieing to these strange attacks making zergs think that's a good way to play and 2) zergs being afraid you can't hold the third if you get it early. You can and you should get it fast really, getting it late only makes it harder to hold these delayed pushes like in this guide.
I'm Zerg and reading this thread is making my heart beat faster. It's a good thing that I'm not at the level where Protoss seem to pull such stuff yet. ^^
On June 03 2013 19:45 Vardaine wrote: Nice build, thank you for sharing.
However, I have a hard time seeing the benefits of this build over the 2 immortal zealot all-in from Naniwa. Basically, this build favors 4 extra zealots and an early sentry over 2 immortals. In my opinion, the immortals are better in any situation except maybe vs pure speedlings. And even then I believe most zergs will rush to roaches as soon as possible, so the immortals will come in handy eventually.
So, my question is therefore: in which situation will you chose this build over the immortal-zealot all-in?
Maybe on certain maps, or if you're in a BoX and wanna pull some mindgames/make the zerg tilt
On June 04 2013 02:49 Markwerf wrote: This build seems pretty much better off a FFE than this. FFE let's it hit harder and faster, it's a bit of a misconception that gateway first builds tech faster, they only get warpgate tech faster everything else is much later because your second gas is late and you have to get msc+warpgate tech going before getting tech. Off a FFE this can hit as early as 7:30, the problem is just that zergs are way more used to play against FFE and hiding your strat is harder to do with FFE. The build is much more streamlined doing it off FFE but it's not too hard for Z to see the forge being chronoboosted and have the appropiate roach response of a decent 3 base, 45ish drone economy.
The wins i saw here though were just zergs playing a bit weird against gateway expands which many still have to figure out. Granted, gateway expands are much harder to read and react to still. Many players seem to make large amount of speedlings preemptively against gateway expands, perhaps because they think they can do a runby or need them to hold their third but that is what's killing themselves against you. It will take a while but zergs will figure out the gateway expands more, I think they already do in PL and protoss mostly return to FFE or standard stargate after gateway first. Basically zerg just needs to get speed a bit faster to deal with the naniwa 4 gate pressure on the third (you only need speedlings against that) and scout for a forge to see they need roaches.
There are basically 2 openings for P which differ in the potential all-ins that can follow: - FFE all-ins pretty much never hit before 7:40 because warpgate just finishes that late. They can however hit much harder at that time because they can easily drop tech the moment the cybercore finishes and thus actually have tech ready the moment WG finishes. So an all-in of FFE is 7:40 at the earliest (some +1 zealot timing) but can be as late as 9:30 (soultrain and other funky all-ins) which can fairly easily be spotted by checking forge, gas timings and the tech building itself since it takes time before P has a stalker out. - Gateway first all-ins can hit earlier because wg finishes faster, you can pretty much 4 gate at 6:30 (naniwa style) but tech all-ins like +1 timings or stuff involving robo/stargate/twilight hit later because the tech itself or the forge is actually quite late because the wall has to be completed first. Any timing including +1 hits at 8:30 at the earliest I think and timings involving lot's of sentries are pretty much nonexistant.
The variance on aggressive gateway openings is just a bit bigger meaning zergs need to differ their timings a bit. Get gas and lingspeed earlier but there is no need for such a fast roach warren (7:20 is fine really). The early aggressive timings don't include +1 anyway and can be beaten with pure speedling easily, for the later timings you have roaches in time. Basically instead of 6 minute double gas you want something like early single gas and very late second+third gas, for the rest you can play pretty much the same getting your third slightly later than the classic 3 hatch play against FFE. However most zergs don't really do that yet and take very late thirds now when seeing gateway or try some weird busts or produce large amount of lings for apparently no reason. I guess it's mostly the result of 1) many protoss not knowing the gateway opening well yet and thus dieing to these strange attacks making zergs think that's a good way to play and 2) zergs being afraid you can't hold the third if you get it early. You can and you should get it fast really, getting it late only makes it harder to hold these delayed pushes like in this guide.
Lots of great information in this post. I get so annoyed by people who claim that gate-core expand forces Zerg to do a million things before they can take a third. 7:40 seems kind of early for a FFE. Are you sure that's accurate? I remember BabyKnight used to do a +1 4gate off of FFE, and that hit at 7:30, but that's with 1 less gateway, and no robo or warp prism, and his build always struck me as pretty close to optimal.
The fastest time for this build is executed off a 1 gate, 1 gas expand. You can beat JayPower's time by more than a minute using that. Here's what SCFusion gave me:
You won't get below 7:00 since you'll never be able to hit your timings as perfectly as SCFusion, but it's certainly possible to get the attack going well before 7:30. If against a 2-basing player, you may need to squeeze in a 2nd sentry somewhere if you suspect a baneling bust to give yourself enough forcefields until warp gate research finishes. I'll upload a replay or two later.
On June 03 2013 19:45 Vardaine wrote: Nice build, thank you for sharing.
However, I have a hard time seeing the benefits of this build over the 2 immortal zealot all-in from Naniwa. Basically, this build favors 4 extra zealots and an early sentry over 2 immortals. In my opinion, the immortals are better in any situation except maybe vs pure speedlings. And even then I believe most zergs will rush to roaches as soon as possible, so the immortals will come in handy eventually.
So, my question is therefore: in which situation will you chose this build over the immortal-zealot all-in?
This build is a varitation. When done properly it should hit slightly earlier. When the fast +1/+1 speedlings (with delayed roach warren) style was very popular, every second you can hit earlier counts.
On June 04 2013 02:49 Markwerf wrote: This build seems pretty much better off a FFE than this. FFE let's it hit harder and faster, it's a bit of a misconception that gateway first builds tech faster, they only get warpgate tech faster everything else is much later because your second gas is late and you have to get msc+warpgate tech going before getting tech. Off a FFE this can hit as early as 7:30, the problem is just that zergs are way more used to play against FFE and hiding your strat is harder to do with FFE. The build is much more streamlined doing it off FFE but it's not too hard for Z to see the forge being chronoboosted and have the appropiate roach response of a decent 3 base, 45ish drone economy.
Not true.
On June 04 2013 02:49 Markwerf wrote:
The wins i saw here though were just zergs playing a bit weird against gateway expands which many still have to figure out. Granted, gateway expands are much harder to read and react to still. Many players seem to make large amount of speedlings preemptively against gateway expands, perhaps because they think they can do a runby or need them to hold their third but that is what's killing themselves against you. It will take a while but zergs will figure out the gateway expands more, I think they already do in PL and protoss mostly return to FFE or standard stargate after gateway first. Basically zerg just needs to get speed a bit faster to deal with the naniwa 4 gate pressure on the third (you only need speedlings against that) and scout for a forge to see they need roaches.
You can't hold your 3rd vs naniwa 4gate with speedlings only. Unless you're plan to snipe the probe that will make the proxy pylon, which is not always possible and unsafe to rely on.
On June 04 2013 02:49 Markwerf wrote:
There are basically 2 openings for P which differ in the potential all-ins that can follow: - FFE all-ins pretty much never hit before 7:40 because warpgate just finishes that late. They can however hit much harder at that time because they can easily drop tech the moment the cybercore finishes and thus actually have tech ready the moment WG finishes. So an all-in of FFE is 7:40 at the earliest (some +1 zealot timing) but can be as late as 9:30 (soultrain and other funky all-ins) which can fairly easily be spotted by checking forge, gas timings and the tech building itself since it takes time before P has a stalker out. - Gateway first all-ins can hit earlier because wg finishes faster, you can pretty much 4 gate at 6:30 (naniwa style) but tech all-ins like +1 timings or stuff involving robo/stargate/twilight hit later because the tech itself or the forge is actually quite late because the wall has to be completed first. Any timing including +1 hits at 8:30 at the earliest I think and timings involving lot's of sentries are pretty much nonexistant.
You are very wrong here. I'll prove it with my next guide, don't feel like explaining it to you now.
On June 04 2013 02:49 Markwerf wrote: The variance on aggressive gateway openings is just a bit bigger meaning zergs need to differ their timings a bit. Get gas and lingspeed earlier but there is no need for such a fast roach warren (7:20 is fine really). The early aggressive timings don't include +1 anyway and can be beaten with pure speedling easily, for the later timings you have roaches in time. Basically instead of 6 minute double gas you want something like early single gas and very late second+third gas, for the rest you can play pretty much the same getting your third slightly later than the classic 3 hatch play against FFE. However most zergs don't really do that yet and take very late thirds now when seeing gateway or try some weird busts or produce large amount of lings for apparently no reason. I guess it's mostly the result of 1) many protoss not knowing the gateway opening well yet and thus dieing to these strange attacks making zergs think that's a good way to play and 2) zergs being afraid you can't hold the third if you get it early. You can and you should get it fast really, getting it late only makes it harder to hold these delayed pushes like in this guide.
You underestimate the power of gateway pressure. I recommend watching vods of naniwa. Even 0/0 zealots are extremely good vs lings, especially with timewarp.
I apreciate you trying to find better timings for strategies. But please don't post unless you have replays/vods or build orders if you're going to claim other build orders aree better.
On June 04 2013 07:18 FlyingBeer wrote: Lots of great information in this post. I get so annoyed by people who claim that gate-core expand forces Zerg to do a million things before they can take a third. 7:40 seems kind of early for a FFE. Are you sure that's accurate? I remember BabyKnight used to do a +1 4gate off of FFE, and that hit at 7:30, but that's with 1 less gateway, and no robo or warp prism, and his build always struck me as pretty close to optimal.
But it does force zerg to do a bunch of different things before they can take a 3rd. It seems you have no idea how much gateway expands lets you customize timings to the second and make it harder for the zerg to scout. Zerg would have to send the 2nd overlord on a different path to avoid getting killed by a stalker. With the mothership core, just being on the highground with your overlord won't save it anymore. This means a delayed 2nd overlord. I want to go into more detail on how much more protoss can do with gateway expand but I would be typing all night. It seems like you just play the meta-game and don't think beyong that. From your build order below I wouldn't even think you're a protoss or zerg player.
On June 04 2013 07:18 FlyingBeer wrote: The fastest time for this build is executed off a 1 gate, 1 gas expand. You can beat JayPower's time by more than a minute using that. Here's what SCFusion gave me:
You won't get below 7:00 since you'll never be able to hit your timings as perfectly as SCFusion, but it's certainly possible to get the attack going well before 7:30. If against a 2-basing player, you may need to squeeze in a 2nd sentry somewhere if you suspect a baneling bust to give yourself enough forcefields until warp gate research finishes. I'll upload a replay or two later.
About your build order.
- Chronoboost on the nexus at 11 and 12 supply? how does that work? - I don't think you have thought about early pools. You go 15 gate (with a gas first on 15 but only put 2 on it (wtf?)) then make a zealot at 20. - Where's the mothership core? You go zealot at 20, sentry at 26 and you don't wall off until 31. (unless you're going to put both forge and robo in your wall which makes it easy to see whats going on). No shit you'll die to a baneling bust. You will quite litteraly die to any push. - You're missing 3 gateways.
Please stop posting things like this. This is a strategy forum, not a make-a-build-order forum. Where are the moderators?
On June 04 2013 08:21 JayPower wrote: About your build order.
- Chronoboost on the nexus at 11 and 12 supply? how does that work? - I don't think you have thought about early pools. You go 15 gate (with a gas first on 15 but only put 2 on it (wtf?)) then make a zealot at 20. - Where's the mothership core? You go zealot at 20, sentry at 26 and you don't wall off until 31. (unless you're going to put both forge and robo in your wall which makes it easy to see whats going on). No shit you'll die to a baneling bust. You will quite litteraly die to any push. - You're missing 3 gateways.
Please stop posting things like this. This is a strategy forum, not a make-a-build-order forum. Where are the moderators?
Well the BO was from SCFusion, which just gives you the fastest possible timing, but doesn't take into consideration other things, such as not dying to any ling pressure, etc.
On June 04 2013 08:21 JayPower wrote: About your build order.
- Chronoboost on the nexus at 11 and 12 supply? how does that work? - I don't think you have thought about early pools. You go 15 gate (with a gas first on 15 but only put 2 on it (wtf?)) then make a zealot at 20. - Where's the mothership core? You go zealot at 20, sentry at 26 and you don't wall off until 31. (unless you're going to put both forge and robo in your wall which makes it easy to see whats going on). No shit you'll die to a baneling bust. You will quite litteraly die to any push. - You're missing 3 gateways.
Please stop posting things like this. This is a strategy forum, not a make-a-build-order forum. Where are the moderators?
Well the BO was from SCFusion, which just gives you the fastest possible timing, but doesn't take into consideration other things, such as not dying to any ling pressure, etc.
So like I said. It doesn't belong on this forum, let alone in my thread.
On June 04 2013 08:21 JayPower wrote: About your build order.
- Chronoboost on the nexus at 11 and 12 supply? how does that work? - I don't think you have thought about early pools. You go 15 gate (with a gas first on 15 but only put 2 on it (wtf?)) then make a zealot at 20. - Where's the mothership core? You go zealot at 20, sentry at 26 and you don't wall off until 31. (unless you're going to put both forge and robo in your wall which makes it easy to see whats going on). No shit you'll die to a baneling bust. You will quite litteraly die to any push. - You're missing 3 gateways.
Please stop posting things like this. This is a strategy forum, not a make-a-build-order forum. Where are the moderators?
One of my replays is of a speedling into baneling bust defense. I still beat your time even with all the pressure I'm facing. I'm assuming a cybernetics core + forge wall-off. The wall-off is completed before yours is. Wide ramps will require an extra gateway to wall-off, but this only slightly changes the build order timings. The gateway can be built on 14 with zero consequences. The 15 timing is because it's direct from SCFusion, which has a few flaws. It can also be built on the standard 13, if you're willing to delay the chrono by like a second, which will delay the build by a second. I don't use a mothership core, it only slightly increases the strength of the attack and significantly delays all your timings. There are 5 gateways there, count them again. Against hatch first, the earliest speedlings can come is at 5:00. The zealot and sentry will both be out by then, and a zealot plus sentry with a free forcefield can defend a ton of lings.
Replay of a 14 pool defense with Warp Prism and 5 Gates finishing at 7:45: http://drop.sc/340066 My execution is quite poor. This was my first time executing the build. My gas timings are wrong and I get supply blocked at 44. Still, I'm beating you by 45 seconds despite all the pressure.
On September 05 2012 11:08 Ea wrote: 1. Since gateway builds have been recently appearing back in style, how do zergs approach these builds in terms of expanding? In other words, when is the 3rd hatch supposed to go down as opposed to the timing of the 3rd vs. FFE?
1. As soon as you have your gas going for ling speed or roaches (preferably ling speed). This however is if you're sure your opponent is expanding. If you suspect your opponent might be 4gating or doing another all-in/heavy pressure build, you really want to wait a bit with that 3rd hatch and scout more. For example send in the overlord scout to scout your opponents base or use zerlings to grab the watchtowers and look around your base checking for pylons to be placed. On a lot of maps you have a nice spot for your overlord to sit safe and check for the natural nexus.
On June 04 2013 08:21 JayPower wrote: But it does force zerg to do a bunch of different things before they can take a 3rd. It seems you have no idea how much gateway expands lets you customize timings to the second and make it harder for the zerg to scout. Zerg would have to send the 2nd overlord on a different path to avoid getting killed by a stalker. With the mothership core, just being on the highground with your overlord won't save it anymore. This means a delayed 2nd overlord. I want to go into more detail on how much more protoss can do with gateway expand but I would be typing all night. It seems like you just play the meta-game and don't think beyong that. From your build order below I wouldn't even think you're a protoss or zerg player.
The first quote is from your excellent guide on Naniwa's gate-core expand into stargate. In that comment, which I agree with, you're saying that the only thing a Zerg has to do different against a gate-core expand before they can take a third is get an earlier gas for ling speed. Now you're saying that the Zerg has to do a bunch of different unspecified things before they can take a third.
I also don't know what you mean about using stalkers to deny overlord scouting. Your build doesn't include a stalker, just one sentry.
On June 04 2013 08:21 JayPower wrote: About your build order.
- Chronoboost on the nexus at 11 and 12 supply? how does that work? - I don't think you have thought about early pools. You go 15 gate (with a gas first on 15 but only put 2 on it (wtf?)) then make a zealot at 20. - Where's the mothership core? You go zealot at 20, sentry at 26 and you don't wall off until 31. (unless you're going to put both forge and robo in your wall which makes it easy to see whats going on). No shit you'll die to a baneling bust. You will quite litteraly die to any push. - You're missing 3 gateways.
Please stop posting things like this. This is a strategy forum, not a make-a-build-order forum. Where are the moderators?
One of my replays is of a speedling into baneling bust defense. I still beat your time even with all the pressure I'm facing. I'm assuming a cybernetics core + forge wall-off. The wall-off is completed before yours is. Wide ramps will require an extra gateway to wall-off, but this only slightly changes the build order timings. The gateway can be built on 14 with zero consequences. The 15 timing is because it's direct from SCFusion, which has a few flaws. It can also be built on the standard 13, if you're willing to delay the chrono by like a second, which will delay the build by a second. I don't use a mothership core, it only slightly increases the strength of the attack and significantly delays all your timings. There are 5 gateways there, count them again. Against hatch first, the earliest speedlings can come is at 5:00. The zealot and sentry will both be out by then, and a zealot plus sentry with a free forcefield can defend a ton of lings.
Replay of a 14 pool defense with Warp Prism and 5 Gates finishing at 7:45: http://drop.sc/340066 My execution is quite poor. This was my first time executing the build. My gas timings are wrong and I get supply blocked at 44. Still, I'm beating you by 45 seconds despite all the pressure.
1. Your opener (scout after 2nd pylon) auto loses vs any early pool. 2. ofc you're going to hold pure speedling pressure while getting a blind cannon. I'm talking about all-in as in baneling busts or roach allins. your warpgate is done at 7:15 with only 1 gate, 1 sentry and 2 zealots. Your opponent's baneling bust hits at 8 minutes....... I really can't tell if you're being serious. 3. There are 8 gateways with my build. Try actually reading my guide and count the gateways. You're still missing 3 gateways 4. mothership core is not just give your attack strenght. Do you even realise you people make a mothershipcore in the early game against zerg?
Man you really gotta stop replying its getting annoying. Are there seriously no mods on this forum?
On September 05 2012 11:08 Ea wrote: 1. Since gateway builds have been recently appearing back in style, how do zergs approach these builds in terms of expanding? In other words, when is the 3rd hatch supposed to go down as opposed to the timing of the 3rd vs. FFE?
1. As soon as you have your gas going for ling speed or roaches (preferably ling speed). This however is if you're sure your opponent is expanding. If you suspect your opponent might be 4gating or doing another all-in/heavy pressure build, you really want to wait a bit with that 3rd hatch and scout more. For example send in the overlord scout to scout your opponents base or use zerlings to grab the watchtowers and look around your base checking for pylons to be placed. On a lot of maps you have a nice spot for your overlord to sit safe and check for the natural nexus.
On June 04 2013 08:21 JayPower wrote: But it does force zerg to do a bunch of different things before they can take a 3rd. It seems you have no idea how much gateway expands lets you customize timings to the second and make it harder for the zerg to scout. Zerg would have to send the 2nd overlord on a different path to avoid getting killed by a stalker. With the mothership core, just being on the highground with your overlord won't save it anymore. This means a delayed 2nd overlord. I want to go into more detail on how much more protoss can do with gateway expand but I would be typing all night. It seems like you just play the meta-game and don't think beyong that. From your build order below I wouldn't even think you're a protoss or zerg player.
The first quote is from your excellent guide on Naniwa's gate-core expand into stargate. In that comment, which I agree with, you're saying that the only thing a Zerg has to do different against a gate-core expand before they can take a third is get an earlier gas for ling speed. Now you're saying that the Zerg has to do a bunch of different unspecified things before they can take a third.
I also don't know what you mean about using stalkers to deny overlord scouting. Your build doesn't include a stalker, just one sentry.
Ok, you win, you broke my patience.
That guide was in WoL and almost a year old. We're playing HoTS now if you haven't noticed. Now please go waste someone else's time.
QUOTE]On June 04 2013 02:49 Markwerf wrote: This build seems pretty much better off a FFE than this. FFE let's it hit harder and faster, it's a bit of a misconception that gateway first builds tech faster, they only get warpgate tech faster everything else is much later because your second gas is late and you have to get msc+warpgate tech going before getting tech. Off a FFE this can hit as early as 7:30, the problem is just that zergs are way more used to play against FFE and hiding your strat is harder to do with FFE. The build is much more streamlined doing it off FFE but it's not too hard for Z to see the forge being chronoboosted and have the appropiate roach response of a decent 3 base, 45ish drone economy.
Not true.
On June 04 2013 02:49 Markwerf wrote:
The wins i saw here though were just zergs playing a bit weird against gateway expands which many still have to figure out. Granted, gateway expands are much harder to read and react to still. Many players seem to make large amount of speedlings preemptively against gateway expands, perhaps because they think they can do a runby or need them to hold their third but that is what's killing themselves against you. It will take a while but zergs will figure out the gateway expands more, I think they already do in PL and protoss mostly return to FFE or standard stargate after gateway first. Basically zerg just needs to get speed a bit faster to deal with the naniwa 4 gate pressure on the third (you only need speedlings against that) and scout for a forge to see they need roaches.
You can't hold your 3rd vs naniwa 4gate with speedlings only. Unless you're plan to snipe the probe that will make the proxy pylon, which is not always possible and unsafe to rely on.
On June 04 2013 02:49 Markwerf wrote:
There are basically 2 openings for P which differ in the potential all-ins that can follow: - FFE all-ins pretty much never hit before 7:40 because warpgate just finishes that late. They can however hit much harder at that time because they can easily drop tech the moment the cybercore finishes and thus actually have tech ready the moment WG finishes. So an all-in of FFE is 7:40 at the earliest (some +1 zealot timing) but can be as late as 9:30 (soultrain and other funky all-ins) which can fairly easily be spotted by checking forge, gas timings and the tech building itself since it takes time before P has a stalker out. - Gateway first all-ins can hit earlier because wg finishes faster, you can pretty much 4 gate at 6:30 (naniwa style) but tech all-ins like +1 timings or stuff involving robo/stargate/twilight hit later because the tech itself or the forge is actually quite late because the wall has to be completed first. Any timing including +1 hits at 8:30 at the earliest I think and timings involving lot's of sentries are pretty much nonexistant.
You are very wrong here. I'll prove it with my next guide, don't feel like explaining it to you now.
On June 04 2013 02:49 Markwerf wrote: The variance on aggressive gateway openings is just a bit bigger meaning zergs need to differ their timings a bit. Get gas and lingspeed earlier but there is no need for such a fast roach warren (7:20 is fine really). The early aggressive timings don't include +1 anyway and can be beaten with pure speedling easily, for the later timings you have roaches in time. Basically instead of 6 minute double gas you want something like early single gas and very late second+third gas, for the rest you can play pretty much the same getting your third slightly later than the classic 3 hatch play against FFE. However most zergs don't really do that yet and take very late thirds now when seeing gateway or try some weird busts or produce large amount of lings for apparently no reason. I guess it's mostly the result of 1) many protoss not knowing the gateway opening well yet and thus dieing to these strange attacks making zergs think that's a good way to play and 2) zergs being afraid you can't hold the third if you get it early. You can and you should get it fast really, getting it late only makes it harder to hold these delayed pushes like in this guide.
You underestimate the power of gateway pressure. I recommend watching vods of naniwa. Even 0/0 zealots are extremely good vs lings, especially with timewarp.
I apreciate you trying to find better timings for strategies. But please don't post unless you have replays/vods or build orders if you're going to claim other build orders aree better.
On June 04 2013 07:18 FlyingBeer wrote: Lots of great information in this post. I get so annoyed by people who claim that gate-core expand forces Zerg to do a million things before they can take a third. 7:40 seems kind of early for a FFE. Are you sure that's accurate? I remember BabyKnight used to do a +1 4gate off of FFE, and that hit at 7:30, but that's with 1 less gateway, and no robo or warp prism, and his build always struck me as pretty close to optimal.
But it does force zerg to do a bunch of different things before they can take a 3rd. It seems you have no idea how much gateway expands lets you customize timings to the second and make it harder for the zerg to scout. Zerg would have to send the 2nd overlord on a different path to avoid getting killed by a stalker. With the mothership core, just being on the highground with your overlord won't save it anymore. This means a delayed 2nd overlord. I want to go into more detail on how much more protoss can do with gateway expand but I would be typing all night. It seems like you just play the meta-game and don't think beyong that. From your build order below I wouldn't even think you're a protoss or zerg player.
On June 04 2013 07:18 FlyingBeer wrote: The fastest time for this build is executed off a 1 gate, 1 gas expand. You can beat JayPower's time by more than a minute using that. Here's what SCFusion gave me:
You won't get below 7:00 since you'll never be able to hit your timings as perfectly as SCFusion, but it's certainly possible to get the attack going well before 7:30. If against a 2-basing player, you may need to squeeze in a 2nd sentry somewhere if you suspect a baneling bust to give yourself enough forcefields until warp gate research finishes. I'll upload a replay or two later.
About your build order.
- Chronoboost on the nexus at 11 and 12 supply? how does that work? - I don't think you have thought about early pools. You go 15 gate (with a gas first on 15 but only put 2 on it (wtf?)) then make a zealot at 20. - Where's the mothership core? You go zealot at 20, sentry at 26 and you don't wall off until 31. (unless you're going to put both forge and robo in your wall which makes it easy to see whats going on). No shit you'll die to a baneling bust. You will quite litteraly die to any push. - You're missing 3 gateways.
Please stop posting things like this. This is a strategy forum, not a make-a-build-order forum. Where are the moderators?
[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
no need to be a dick...
Anyway it's very much up for debate if fast 3rd is holdable against naniwa 4 gate, from what i've seen and played it easily is. Most vods of naniwa i've seen where when this build was rather new and the responses to it were awful, now that it's quite known it's really not too hard for zerg to hold. 0/0 lings vs 0/0 zealots is a very even fight and speedlings can hold just fine especially since finding the pylon with speedlings is not gimmicky at all, you got basically unlimited scouting potential.
I do admit gateway first is very sweet and probably better overall on maps where it's easy to wall off with pylon-gate-gate at the natural especially because you can do so much varied all-ins. Just for this specific +1 zealot timing a FFE is just slightly faster though, it's not much but in general i'd say +1 timings are a bit smoother off FFE, other timings off gateway first which makes perfect sense given how FFE has the forge and +1 a fair bit faster. If that weighs up to the fact that a +1 timing is much harder to scout from a gateway first play is hard to say, gateway first play is not figured out well from the zerg end from what I've seen mostly. Lots of overreactions and stupid aggression still going on all the time even in pro games.
On June 04 2013 08:21 JayPower wrote: About your build order.
- Chronoboost on the nexus at 11 and 12 supply? how does that work? - I don't think you have thought about early pools. You go 15 gate (with a gas first on 15 but only put 2 on it (wtf?)) then make a zealot at 20. - Where's the mothership core? You go zealot at 20, sentry at 26 and you don't wall off until 31. (unless you're going to put both forge and robo in your wall which makes it easy to see whats going on). No shit you'll die to a baneling bust. You will quite litteraly die to any push. - You're missing 3 gateways.
Please stop posting things like this. This is a strategy forum, not a make-a-build-order forum. Where are the moderators?
One of my replays is of a speedling into baneling bust defense. I still beat your time even with all the pressure I'm facing. I'm assuming a cybernetics core + forge wall-off. The wall-off is completed before yours is. Wide ramps will require an extra gateway to wall-off, but this only slightly changes the build order timings. The gateway can be built on 14 with zero consequences. The 15 timing is because it's direct from SCFusion, which has a few flaws. It can also be built on the standard 13, if you're willing to delay the chrono by like a second, which will delay the build by a second. I don't use a mothership core, it only slightly increases the strength of the attack and significantly delays all your timings. There are 5 gateways there, count them again. Against hatch first, the earliest speedlings can come is at 5:00. The zealot and sentry will both be out by then, and a zealot plus sentry with a free forcefield can defend a ton of lings.
Replay of a 14 pool defense with Warp Prism and 5 Gates finishing at 7:45: http://drop.sc/340066 My execution is quite poor. This was my first time executing the build. My gas timings are wrong and I get supply blocked at 44. Still, I'm beating you by 45 seconds despite all the pressure.
1. Your opener (scout after 2nd pylon) auto loses vs any early pool. 2. ofc you're going to hold pure speedling pressure while getting a blind cannon. I'm talking about all-in as in baneling busts or roach allins. your warpgate is done at 7:15 with only 1 gate, 1 sentry and 2 zealots. Your opponent's baneling bust hits at 8 minutes....... I really can't tell if you're being serious. 3. There are 8 gateways with my build. Try actually reading my guide and count the gateways. You're still missing 3 gateways 4. mothership core is not just give your attack strenght. Do you even realise you people make a mothershipcore in the early game against zerg?
Man you really gotta stop replying its getting annoying. Are there seriously no mods on this forum?
1. That opener with a scout after the 2nd pylon is the standard way Naniwa does a gate expand with no core. MC will do a 16 scout after the 2nd pylon. Hero goes for an early 15 scout. 2. The cannon wasn't blind. It was started well after his ling pressure had begun. My earliest reaction to the 14 pool was chronoing my zealot and starting a 2nd zealot. Both my build and my opponent's baneling bust were delayed by the initial ling pressure, so not having any gateways done at that time is not really an issue. A straight baneling bust with no early ling pressure would require a different response. 3. I have no idea why I thought you had 5 gates in your build. That's no matter. I could easily get 3 more gates well before 8:30. 4. Since when is mothership core required vs. zerg? 5. The mothership core hasn't changed the opening meta that much between WoL and HotS. If it's not safe to take an early third now, then it probably wasn't safe before. And if gate-expands pretty much force zerg to play 2-base, which I don't think they do at all, then Protoss is OP.
2. The cannon wasn't blind. It was started well after his ling pressure had begun. My earliest reaction to the 14 pool was chronoing my zealot and starting a 2nd zealot. Both my build and my opponent's baneling bust were delayed by the initial ling pressure, so not having any gateways done at that time is not really an issue. A straight baneling bust with no early ling pressure would require a different response.
4. Since when is mothership core required vs. zerg? 5. The mothership core hasn't changed the opening meta that much between WoL and HotS. If it's not safe to take an early third now, then it probably wasn't safe before. And if gate-expands pretty much force zerg to play 2-base, which I don't think they do at all, then Protoss is OP.
2. 6 lings from a 14p should be able to be held by a MSC...? 4. It helps a lot against random all ins and counterattacks during your push. Also, you can float it outside your natural for a couple of extra seconds headsup before attacks come 5. MSC allows you to play a lot more greedy . . .
I've been struggling a lot with PvZ lately. This strategy has turned that around. I'm really starting to love the mobility Warp Prisms offer, even in normal engagements. Thanks for this
On May 13 2013 04:57 FlyingBeer wrote: Not your best, but still a great guide.
With such a late wall-off, what's your recommendation against unusual pool timings (10-14 pool with immediate 6+ ling pressure)?
Why gate-core expand instead of nexus first? The primary constraint on attack timing is the warp prism, and your robo is so late that going gate-core doesn't seem to confer any advantage.
I believe JayIsImbA was referring to the FPVOD where your attack was late because you were in cross-position on Whirlwind, and your warp prism move-out seemed slightly delayed for some reason.
I too, am interested on the early pool timings. In my experience (high gold league) most of the time I go gateway first I get zergling spammed and get behind. All of the strategies I see wall of your first expansion which doesn't work with the way you recommend setting up our base in the guide.
On May 13 2013 04:57 FlyingBeer wrote: Not your best, but still a great guide.
With such a late wall-off, what's your recommendation against unusual pool timings (10-14 pool with immediate 6+ ling pressure)?
Why gate-core expand instead of nexus first? The primary constraint on attack timing is the warp prism, and your robo is so late that going gate-core doesn't seem to confer any advantage.
I believe JayIsImbA was referring to the FPVOD where your attack was late because you were in cross-position on Whirlwind, and your warp prism move-out seemed slightly delayed for some reason.
I too, am interested on the early pool timings. In my experience (high gold league) most of the time I go gateway first I get zergling spammed and get behind. All of the strategies I see wall of your first expansion which doesn't work with the way you recommend setting up our base in the guide.
Basically dealing with pool timings between 10-14 is about walling off with the zealot and pylon-gates while your msc defends the main. The ideal wall off at the natural is so there is a 1 hex path next to the pylon for your zealot to stand, this way the zealot can easily defend the weakest part of the wall and block out further lings. The lings that got in your base can be defended with the MsC and probes then, losing a few probes isn't too bad considering how much damage zerg is doing to himself. It helps to have your initial 2 pylons and gate-core in a position that makes it harder for the lings to circle around in your base preferrably walling off a section. Of course the pylon powering your gate should also be somewhat protected or your gate be double powered. If they really keep piling lings on you you need to wall off completely obviously and use the nexus cannon + sentries you'll be having by that time.
In general I don't think gate first is really good for maps where the choke is too wide and too far away from the nexus like akilon waste. FFE also suffers on those maps but slightly less I feel
Im having more and more trouble with this strategy lately, It seems that I never run into zergling defence anymore which this hard counters. I run into zerg maxing on roaches pretty much every time now. I feel slightly behind when this happens.
On June 21 2013 05:10 Littlesheep wrote: Im having more and more trouble with this strategy lately, It seems that I never run into zergling defence anymore which this hard counters. I run into zerg maxing on roaches pretty much every time now. I feel slightly behind when this happens.
I know what you mean. I felt when I first started using it the build was an auto win but now you have to earn it because they never go pure ling. That's a good thing in the sense that zergs don't play as greedy so you can go into a macro game with less of a disadvantage.
that being said, it's not impossible to win with the build, you have to transition out of it or get fancy with good micro, get all your gases, add immortals, get a 2nd prism, try to deny/destroy the third(or any base), and force them to stay at home to defend while you scout the opponent's tech. Remember that although this build is decently popular, it probably isn't as popular as the man train, which is similar in defending as a zerg so they're ready for it.
On June 21 2013 05:10 Littlesheep wrote: Im having more and more trouble with this strategy lately, It seems that I never run into zergling defence anymore which this hard counters. I run into zerg maxing on roaches pretty much every time now. I feel slightly behind when this happens.
I know what you mean. I felt when I first started using it the build was an auto win but now you have to earn it because they never go pure ling. That's a good thing in the sense that zergs don't play as greedy so you can go into a macro game with less of a disadvantage.
that being said, it's not impossible to win with the build, you have to transition out of it or get fancy with good micro, get all your gases, add immortals, get a 2nd prism, try to deny/destroy the third(or any base), and force them to stay at home to defend while you scout the opponent's tech. Remember that although this build is decently popular, it probably isn't as popular as the man train, which is similar in defending as a zerg so they're ready for it.
I was thinking the same thing, theyre all preparing for the MAN train when they see this build. Their confusion would be great if it weren't for the fact that the defence for that build is even more effective vs this one.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VK0axdI.jpg)
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I do this off of an FEE though. However, yours hit around the 10minute mark, and I feel that is kinda late. 
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