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Hellbat,marauder,medivac sounds good
As a terran allways have some spare gas when game goes on, i would suggest to build some ravens for PDD+HSM with your push. This means that each PDD takes 400+ damage instead of your troops for only 10 energy, so u can HSM+PDD mutiple times in 1 engagement. It gives ur army and mostly hellbats the time to reach there target (hellbat short range), once they do u have better chance of winning any fight
PDD effective against Marauders, Vikings, Banshees, Battlecruisers, Thors, Missile Turrets, Stalkers, Phoenixes, Photon Cannons, Queens, Mutalisks, Corruptors, Hydralisks, Spore Crawlers.
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Wouldn't 'airtoss' completely destroy this though? I know airtoss isn't that commonly used in pvt, but vs this it might work wonders.(Just theorycrafting)
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ive been experimenting and it seems best to start adding the hellbats after i get the armory for regular upgrades.
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On April 15 2013 09:03 Henk wrote:
Wouldn't 'airtoss' completely destroy this though? I know airtoss isn't that commonly used in pvt, but vs this it might work wonders.(Just theorycrafting)
the thing is skytoss is ridiculously difficult to get to so there will be a ton of timings when this can do devastating damage due to the limited number of protoss ground forces. photon overcharge does nothing to stimmed marauders healed by medivacs. Also skytoss is very slow and bad at responding to drops when it gets to over 3 bases.
Even if the protoss actually get a sizable skytoss force all terrans need to do is switch the rax/factory add ons and start pumping out marine/mine. Provided that you've already done enough damage with marauder helbat attacks, the protoss simple cannot have both skytoss AND storms out before being overwhelmed by marines. skytoss isnt the answer
in fact from a protoss standpoint this feels very hard to combat. Archons take too long to get to and die to EMPs(which the terran can get with his excess gas) and marauder/helbat is much less susceptible to storms due to them having more hp and clumps less. Once the zealot force melts to helbat fire there's nothing stopping small stimmed marauder squads to run up and snipe colossi
Does anyone have any good suggestions to combat this?
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On April 15 2013 14:34 uh-oh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 09:03 Henk wrote:
Wouldn't 'airtoss' completely destroy this though? I know airtoss isn't that commonly used in pvt, but vs this it might work wonders.(Just theorycrafting) the thing is skytoss is ridiculously difficult to get to so there will be a ton of timings when this can do devastating damage due to the limited number of protoss ground forces. photon overcharge does nothing to stimmed marauders healed by medivacs. Also skytoss is very slow and bad at responding to drops when it gets to over 3 bases. Even if the protoss actually get a sizable skytoss force all terrans need to do is switch the rax/factory add ons and start pumping out marine/mine. Provided that you've already done enough damage with marauder helbat attacks, the protoss simple cannot have both skytoss AND storms out before being overwhelmed by marines. skytoss isnt the answer in fact from a protoss standpoint this feels very hard to combat. Archons take too long to get to and die to EMPs(which the terran can get with his excess gas) and marauder/helbat is much less susceptible to storms due to them having more hp and clumps less. Once the zealot force melts to helbat fire there's nothing stopping small stimmed marauder squads to run up and snipe colossi Does anyone have any good suggestions to combat this?
my toss practice partner has been experimenting with incorporating DT's into his play. the hellbat marauder is an excessively mineral heavy playstyle and making me spend scams cuts into my mineral income.
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On April 15 2013 14:34 uh-oh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 09:03 Henk wrote:
Wouldn't 'airtoss' completely destroy this though? I know airtoss isn't that commonly used in pvt, but vs this it might work wonders.(Just theorycrafting) the thing is skytoss is ridiculously difficult to get to so there will be a ton of timings when this can do devastating damage due to the limited number of protoss ground forces. photon overcharge does nothing to stimmed marauders healed by medivacs. Also skytoss is very slow and bad at responding to drops when it gets to over 3 bases. Even if the protoss actually get a sizable skytoss force all terrans need to do is switch the rax/factory add ons and start pumping out marine/mine. Provided that you've already done enough damage with marauder helbat attacks, the protoss simple cannot have both skytoss AND storms out before being overwhelmed by marines. skytoss isnt the answer in fact from a protoss standpoint this feels very hard to combat. Archons take too long to get to and die to EMPs(which the terran can get with his excess gas) and marauder/helbat is much less susceptible to storms due to them having more hp and clumps less. Once the zealot force melts to helbat fire there's nothing stopping small stimmed marauder squads to run up and snipe colossi Does anyone have any good suggestions to combat this?
Collosi + Gateway ala Rain (with Archons before storm being safer though) actually does wonders vs this, just don't a-move with all your zealots while the hellbats are still alive and you'll crush this. You can also use stutter step hold position micro to get a lot of free shots off on the hellbats due to their slow movement speed and inability to stim.
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On April 15 2013 14:34 uh-oh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 09:03 Henk wrote:
Wouldn't 'airtoss' completely destroy this though? I know airtoss isn't that commonly used in pvt, but vs this it might work wonders.(Just theorycrafting) the thing is skytoss is ridiculously difficult to get to so there will be a ton of timings when this can do devastating damage due to the limited number of protoss ground forces. photon overcharge does nothing to stimmed marauders healed by medivacs. Also skytoss is very slow and bad at responding to drops when it gets to over 3 bases. Even if the protoss actually get a sizable skytoss force all terrans need to do is switch the rax/factory add ons and start pumping out marine/mine. Provided that you've already done enough damage with marauder helbat attacks, the protoss simple cannot have both skytoss AND storms out before being overwhelmed by marines. skytoss isnt the answer in fact from a protoss standpoint this feels very hard to combat. Archons take too long to get to and die to EMPs(which the terran can get with his excess gas) and marauder/helbat is much less susceptible to storms due to them having more hp and clumps less. Once the zealot force melts to helbat fire there's nothing stopping small stimmed marauder squads to run up and snipe colossi Does anyone have any good suggestions to combat this?
Phoenix+blink stalkers play seems logical to me. Counter everything, could work right?
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I for my part believe in keeping marines in the composition and adding hellbats. What I usually do is after building the reactor for my starport on my factory, I lift and go build another reactor from which I pump out hellbats. This usually works out well because i start the armory at the same time as my +1, stim etc. finishes (with another engie bay built when armory is 50% done).
So my first poke is hellbat free but then I start having a really nice composition. Concerning upgrades I get + armor on vehicles so its shared between vikings and hellbats.
So basically I get 1 rax with reactor, 1 factory with reactor and then only rax with tech labs and that defines my composition.
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Might be worth playing around with...
On April 15 2013 08:23 govie wrote:Hellbat,marauder,medivac sounds good As a terran allways have some spare gas when game goes on, i would suggest to build some ravens for PDD+HSM with your push. This means that each PDD takes 400+ damage instead of your troops for only 10 energy, so u can HSM+PDD mutiple times in 1 engagement. It gives ur army and mostly hellbats the time to reach there target (hellbat short range), once they do u have better chance of winning any fight PDD effective against Marauders, Vikings, Banshees, Battlecruisers, Thors, Missile Turrets, Stalkers, Phoenixes, Photon Cannons, Queens, Mutalisks, Corruptors, Hydralisks, Spore Crawlers.
and Tempests
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Wouldnt this get worse and worse throughout the game as the upgrades are different for the hellbat and marauder? You cannot afford both upgrade paths. Also wouldn't oracle or voidrays destroy this??
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I actually have a practice partner that used to do this against me. What I eventually found that deals with it is: as soon as you see Terran going hellbats, go triple robo immortal, and spend excess resources on stalkers.
Hellbats are not unbeatable...unless toss insists on continuing with zealots. Pure immortal handles the comp just fine. Overreact with triple robe, then supplement with gateway units if Terran relaxes his composition.
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On April 15 2013 04:29 Ozlo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 03:00 Deepflow wrote:
Ive been thinking about this and while it sounds like it might be stronger in a straight up fight you have a serious upgrade problem. Especially if you want to get ship famage also. To be constantly upping every relevant thing you also need 3 armories! Which is 450/300 you cant spend on units even without considering upgrade costs.
Im still gonna try this when i get home tomorrow though. hellbats are so good you dont really have to upgrade them. and they are beefy as fuck so they make good meatshields
Still, the upgrades are useful. I'd rather have tough as well-done steak than beefy units.
Will give this composition a go, since TvP is still my worst matchup.
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On April 15 2013 22:31 abefroman wrote:
I actually have a practice partner that used to do this against me. What I eventually found that deals with it is: as soon as you see Terran going hellbats, go triple robo immortal, and spend excess resources on stalkers.
Hellbats are not unbeatable...unless toss insists on continuing with zealots. Pure immortal handles the comp just fine. Overreact with triple robe, then supplement with gateway units if Terran relaxes his composition.
if you go 3 robo for immortals... have fun getting dropped and having the bulk of ur army be too slow to properly deal with it. that and the tech lab rax can still make marines. and this handy thing called ghosts.
the entire point of the hellbat marauder composition is that it punches above its weight class in small engagements against gateway units (the immediate response to drops). therefore, the comp is perfect for drops and doing large amounts of damage. and on top of that, the reactored factories can make widow mines in case you push with immortals.
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I incorporate hellbat in MMM force asap i got the armory, i get reactor on the unused factory and start hellbat prod. When i got 3 saturated base i go for a second factory instead of another couple of rax. Hellbats are really really strong vs protoss no doubt about it. Even if they are not so mobile they allow MMM force to have a good tanking front. The only issue with hellbat is that you can't runaway so when you engage you better be aware of what your facing and know if you can engage it straight.
When I incorporate Hellbat in MMM i always go for plating instead of air attack upgrade in the armory because the plating is good for Hellbat+Viking+Medivac. You can argue that you loose some dps for viking but as hellbat is a 'tank' unit it's like zealot it's better to upgrade armor i think.
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I've been doing this... (diamond level only, please take it in consideration when pointing out mistakes)
on the early game, I go for widow mines, for they deal with oracles and with low zealot counts...
then marauder hellbat for later stages...
I don't discard marines, but usually have like 1 reactor and 6-7 tech labs on 3 bases.
I've been facing problems with 8-9 minutes busts, like immortal, void rays, Tails's DT drop, delayed 4gate, blink, etc... as the marauder count is yet not fearsome and widow mines don't seen to be enough.
edit: as for upgrades, you only really need 1 attack at the most for the hellbat (as it will 5shot zealots up to 2 armor), so just focusing on armor sounds better (and that armor also goes for your medivacs and vikings now, so that can't really be that bad)
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On April 15 2013 23:28 tisalgado wrote:
I've been doing this... (diamond level only, please take it in consideration when pointing out mistakes)
on the early game, I go for widow mines, for they deal with oracles and with low zealot counts...
then marauder hellbat for later stages...
I don't discard marines, but usually have like 1 reactor and 6-7 tech labs on 3 bases.
I've been facing problems with 8-9 minutes busts, like immortal, void rays, Tails's DT drop, delayed 4gate, blink, etc... as the marauder count is yet not fearsome and widow mines don't seen to be enough.
edit: as for upgrades, you only really need 1 attack at the most for the hellbat (as it will 5shot zealots up to 2 armor), so just focusing on armor sounds better (and that armor also goes for your medivacs and vikings now, so that can't really be that bad)
those all in style plays make the outcome less about your unit composition and more about your reaction. you want the smallest possible reaction to each all in. if you scout DT then a turret in each base should do the trick, an immortal all in? then focus on marine and widow mine and get a bunker or 2.
the point is, unless you are unbelievably weak for some reason, proper reactions will win all those situations.
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On April 15 2013 23:46 Ozlo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 23:28 tisalgado wrote:
I've been doing this... (diamond level only, please take it in consideration when pointing out mistakes)
on the early game, I go for widow mines, for they deal with oracles and with low zealot counts...
then marauder hellbat for later stages...
I don't discard marines, but usually have like 1 reactor and 6-7 tech labs on 3 bases.
I've been facing problems with 8-9 minutes busts, like immortal, void rays, Tails's DT drop, delayed 4gate, blink, etc... as the marauder count is yet not fearsome and widow mines don't seen to be enough.
edit: as for upgrades, you only really need 1 attack at the most for the hellbat (as it will 5shot zealots up to 2 armor), so just focusing on armor sounds better (and that armor also goes for your medivacs and vikings now, so that can't really be that bad) those all in style plays make the outcome less about your unit composition and more about your reaction. you want the smallest possible reaction to each all in. if you scout DT then a turret in each base should do the trick, an immortal all in? then focus on marine and widow mine and get a bunker or 2. the point is, unless you are unbelievably weak for some reason, proper reactions will win all those situations.
I see, you're probably right, I should study a bit more on all in scouting so I can prepare accordingly...
also, I have a question... with that gas on 15, can you get the widow mines in time for a proxy oracle rush timing?
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they come out exactly on time for an oracle rush. however if the toss is going all out balls out on the rush... a bunker near your main min line will also work until you can salvage it
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On April 15 2013 23:56 Ozlo wrote:
they come out exactly on time for an oracle rush. however if the toss is going all out balls out on the rush... a bunker near your main min line will also work until you can salvage it
prblem is you don't always find the proxy SG, or get your scout denied by a single stalker with a slitghly delayed oracle... it's hard to judge to judge if you'll need a bunker for those (as you'll need 40 seconds buidling it, it must be started ewally soon... and building it without need may leave you vulnerable to a frontal bust.
But if the widow mine comes out in time for the rush, no problems... I'll try 15 gas some tonight (I've been doing 13 gas for fearing the oracle would arrive before I could defend myself
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On April 15 2013 23:50 tisalgado wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 23:46 Ozlo wrote:On April 15 2013 23:28 tisalgado wrote:
I've been doing this... (diamond level only, please take it in consideration when pointing out mistakes)
on the early game, I go for widow mines, for they deal with oracles and with low zealot counts...
then marauder hellbat for later stages...
I don't discard marines, but usually have like 1 reactor and 6-7 tech labs on 3 bases.
I've been facing problems with 8-9 minutes busts, like immortal, void rays, Tails's DT drop, delayed 4gate, blink, etc... as the marauder count is yet not fearsome and widow mines don't seen to be enough.
edit: as for upgrades, you only really need 1 attack at the most for the hellbat (as it will 5shot zealots up to 2 armor), so just focusing on armor sounds better (and that armor also goes for your medivacs and vikings now, so that can't really be that bad) those all in style plays make the outcome less about your unit composition and more about your reaction. you want the smallest possible reaction to each all in. if you scout DT then a turret in each base should do the trick, an immortal all in? then focus on marine and widow mine and get a bunker or 2. the point is, unless you are unbelievably weak for some reason, proper reactions will win all those situations. I see, you're probably right, I should study a bit more on all in scouting so I can prepare accordingly... also, I have a question... with that gas on 15, can you get the widow mines in time for a proxy oracle rush timing? No. If Protoss skips a stalker, it is not possible.
You should delay the factory until you have marines 5 and 6 in production and have all marines in mineral line if you scout no stalker. If you have 5 marines, you will lose.
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EPT
