EPTAnd you know what? It is so much easier to deal with drops now with the slower, stronger army. When you KNOW you will win any straight up engagement, blowing 1k or more on static defense to be safe at home is pretty cheap. In terms of toss...this translates to 3-4 cannons at each base and stalker warp ins at home deal with drops just fine.
[D] Marauder hellbat medivac in TvP - Page 3
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abefroman
70 Posts
And you know what? It is so much easier to deal with drops now with the slower, stronger army. When you KNOW you will win any straight up engagement, blowing 1k or more on static defense to be safe at home is pretty cheap. In terms of toss...this translates to 3-4 cannons at each base and stalker warp ins at home deal with drops just fine. | ||
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tisalgado
Brazil51 Posts
On April 16 2013 01:23 U_G_L_Y wrote: No. If Protoss skips a stalker, it is not possible. You should delay the factory until you have marines 5 and 6 in production and have all marines in mineral line if you scout no stalker. If you have 5 marines, you will lose. delay the factory only for continued marine production, but still go for reactor after 2 marines, right? | ||
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Ozlo
United States30 Posts
On April 16 2013 01:23 U_G_L_Y wrote: No. If Protoss skips a stalker, it is not possible. You should delay the factory until you have marines 5 and 6 in production and have all marines in mineral line if you scout no stalker. If you have 5 marines, you will lose. If Protoss is that all in, it is easily scouted and you can respond properly. The mines are out for most oracle rushes, but for the fee all out balls out all ins, a more extreme response is required | ||
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U_G_L_Y
United States516 Posts
On April 16 2013 01:31 tisalgado wrote: delay the factory only for continued marine production, but still go for reactor after 2 marines, right? Yes. Protoss scouting 15 gas means they know no pressure can come. They have already decided to take 2 gas, so getting a couple of units before the starport is stupid. As for this build in the OP, I think that a couple of aggressive immortals are a build order win, but I don't think that will occur to most Protosses. | ||
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Ozlo
United States30 Posts
On April 16 2013 03:28 U_G_L_Y wrote: Yes. Protoss scouting 15 gas means they know no pressure can come. They have already decided to take 2 gas, so getting a couple of units before the starport is stupid. As for this build in the OP, I think that a couple of aggressive immortals are a build order win, but I don't think that will occur to most Protosses. actually, most protoss end up taking damage from my initial 12-14 marine, 2 mine medivac pressure, and even if they dont, the amount of marines and mines is enough to stop most immortal/gateway all ins. then marauders hit the field and im all set. | ||
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Doc Brawler
United States260 Posts
I feel the current 3 WM production used in TvZ might be good to copy, one reactor and one tech-lab for transformation and blue-flame. | ||
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Gool
Argentina204 Posts
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HearthCraft
United States117 Posts
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Treehead
999 Posts
1. Conc Shells + Marauder + Hellbat seem like a less micro-intensive version of sentry+zealot (where one unit keeps them close, and the other is good close up. In addition, Marauders are amazing against Stalkers, which are the biggest ground unit holding back the Hellbat in PvT. 2. For phoenixes/oracles (which are really, really good at chewing through hellbats) or HTs, a person can get ghosts as easily as ever (maybe we should include them anyway?) - and for other air-related threats (Voids/Tempests/Carriers), Vikings were the go-to anyway, and will be the same with this composition. 3. As the stargate shenanigans become more and more prevalent, early factories (and WMs) are going to become more common anyway, so having an early Factory+Reactor seems good before you even make the hellbats. The question is - will this comp be timing attack reliant (e.g. if it can't get the upgrades it needs, and therefore must push before the upgrade gap becomes a big factor) or is there a way of getting all the upgrades you need to remain competitive? And for that matter, what upgrades ARE needed to stay competitive? Can we use hellbats to slow down a protosses progress towards a 3/3 army - or reduce the effectiveness of such an army in time to get our own upgrades going? These are the things we should be looking into in this thread, not "your gas needs to be 5 seconds earlier to hold ultra-early Oracle" concerns that can be easily addressed by just getting *slightly* earlier gas. | ||
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Lock0n
United Kingdom184 Posts
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govie
9334 Posts
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On April 16 2013 04:44 Gool wrote: What about 3-4robo mass immortal? Well its not that hard to make Marines  . Terran is gonna know your going for large numbers of Immortals. And is gonna be prepared. | ||
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
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Ozlo
United States30 Posts
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LeeDawg
United States1306 Posts
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govie
9334 Posts
On April 14 2013 02:57 Ozlo wrote: I was thinking, in the early-midgame marines are the mainly needed to dps against zealots right? well here is my thinking, replace those marines with hellbats and dps against the lots faster. my current TvP strat 10 depot 12 rax 2 marines before reactor 13 start a depot (to finish wall off) pull that scv and use it as a scout 15 gas 16 OC expand 20-ish bunker at natural at 100 gas factory - 2 widow mines - tech lab after factory starport - 1 medivac - tech lab attack with a bunch of marines 2 widow mines and a medivac while this attack is happening get 2 more rax and an e bay get weapons +1 and tech switch the 2 rax to the 2 fresh made tech labs and get stim/combat shields from here its MMM after adding a reactor to the starport however what i propose is to tech switch the reactor on the barracks for the factory and make another tech lab on the rax and make 3 marauders and 2 hellbats/widow mines at a time. it seems to me that this composition would be quite powerful in the midgame where drop play is so crucial and small pack style attacks are so powerful. then you can transition by adding more reactored barracks and getting lategame MMM with hellbats still because zealots become more prevalent then. what are your thoughts on this? To answer your question: I am no master but to me, the below version would be fun to try and could maybe work : On 2 bases (25 scv's each+mules) u can exactly feed : 3 rax techlab --> marauders 1 factory reactored --> hellbats 1 starport reactored --> medivacs 1. This is without upgrades. Therefore I would start building marines and mines + upgrades +1 and stim (like u do) but would not transition into MMM after (no combat shield research needed). 2. I would try to just take 3rd add standard productionfacilities and a starport+techlab or ghost academy as needed. I would try to add higher tier units to counter whatever hes building and not marines. This because u will have much gas on 3 base anyway, then why not make higher tier units after your initial push. 3. Basically with your 1st push the marines would be the anti-air and if needed the vikings/ravens with your followup push. raven/viking = against air/stalkers/collosi ghosts = templar/archon Because i hope tis could work, does not mean it will, but u could give it a test  | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On April 16 2013 04:44 Gool wrote: What about 3-4robo mass immortal? Why do so many people think that Immortals against Hellbats isn't in favor of the Hellbats? Sure, the comparison of dps and health per cost/supply is rather close (Hellbats win in resources IIRC, Immortals in supply), but you need one robo (200/100) to build one Immortal every 55 seconds. You need one reactored factory (200/150) to make four hellbats in 60 seconds. Would anyone ever actually do mass immortal no sentry? It sounds incredibly weak. | ||
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Douillos
France3195 Posts
On April 16 2013 09:08 kyllinghest wrote: My experience is that while hellbats are too good to completely forgo, so are marines. They bring speed and damage like no other terran unit. I can see how Hellbat Marauder can catch someone off guard and absolutely destroy them though, hellbats are most certainly very very strong. I totally agree. I feel pure marauder/hellbat is a mistake. for me the current building set up is 1 rax w/reactor, 1 fact with reactor and only rax with tech labs after that for ghost and marauders. tl;dr: At least 2 marines per cycle is mandatory IMO. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
However, Archons would also be an effective counter. They don't take any bonus damage from either unit, can't be slowed by concussive shells, and their large size means that the Hellbat AOE isn't going to be that effective. Plus they do bonus damage to both Marauders and Hellbats. | ||
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Douillos
France3195 Posts
On April 16 2013 18:50 BronzeKnee wrote: The natural counter to this would simply be air units. But Protoss lacks a viable air unit with the DPS to handle this. However, Archons would also be an effective counter. They don't take any bonus damage from either unit, can't be slowed by concussive shells, and their large size means that the Hellbat AOE isn't going to be that effective. Plus they do bonus damage to both Marauders and Hellbats. Immortal archon does counter this (I had the experience yesterday) but you should have ghosts out by then. | ||
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