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[D] Marauder hellbat medivac in TvP - Page 3

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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abefroman
Profile Joined December 2010
70 Posts
April 15 2013 16:26 GMT
#41
The point about going immortals is valid, but not something that can't be overcome. I've actually been playing Zerg lately, and in zvt going roach hydra.....where the main knock on it is ability to deal with drops.

And you know what? It is so much easier to deal with drops now with the slower, stronger army. When you KNOW you will win any straight up engagement, blowing 1k or more on static defense to be safe at home is pretty cheap. In terms of toss...this translates to 3-4 cannons at each base and stalker warp ins at home deal with drops just fine.
tisalgado
Profile Joined February 2013
Brazil51 Posts
April 15 2013 16:31 GMT
#42
On April 16 2013 01:23 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 15 2013 23:50 tisalgado wrote:
On April 15 2013 23:46 Ozlo wrote:
On April 15 2013 23:28 tisalgado wrote:
I've been doing this... (diamond level only, please take it in consideration when pointing out mistakes)

on the early game, I go for widow mines, for they deal with oracles and with low zealot counts...
then marauder hellbat for later stages...
I don't discard marines, but usually have like 1 reactor and 6-7 tech labs on 3 bases.

I've been facing problems with 8-9 minutes busts, like immortal, void rays, Tails's DT drop, delayed 4gate, blink, etc... as the marauder count is yet not fearsome and widow mines don't seen to be enough.

edit: as for upgrades, you only really need 1 attack at the most for the hellbat (as it will 5shot zealots up to 2 armor), so just focusing on armor sounds better (and that armor also goes for your medivacs and vikings now, so that can't really be that bad)


those all in style plays make the outcome less about your unit composition and more about your reaction. you want the smallest possible reaction to each all in. if you scout DT then a turret in each base should do the trick, an immortal all in? then focus on marine and widow mine and get a bunker or 2.

the point is, unless you are unbelievably weak for some reason, proper reactions will win all those situations.


I see, you're probably right, I should study a bit more on all in scouting so I can prepare accordingly...
also, I have a question... with that gas on 15, can you get the widow mines in time for a proxy oracle rush timing?
No. If Protoss skips a stalker, it is not possible.

You should delay the factory until you have marines 5 and 6 in production and have all marines in mineral line if you scout no stalker. If you have 5 marines, you will lose.


delay the factory only for continued marine production, but still go for reactor after 2 marines, right?
Luck = Preparation + Oportunity
Ozlo
Profile Joined March 2013
United States30 Posts
April 15 2013 17:24 GMT
#43
On April 16 2013 01:23 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 15 2013 23:50 tisalgado wrote:
On April 15 2013 23:46 Ozlo wrote:
On April 15 2013 23:28 tisalgado wrote:
I've been doing this... (diamond level only, please take it in consideration when pointing out mistakes)

on the early game, I go for widow mines, for they deal with oracles and with low zealot counts...
then marauder hellbat for later stages...
I don't discard marines, but usually have like 1 reactor and 6-7 tech labs on 3 bases.

I've been facing problems with 8-9 minutes busts, like immortal, void rays, Tails's DT drop, delayed 4gate, blink, etc... as the marauder count is yet not fearsome and widow mines don't seen to be enough.

edit: as for upgrades, you only really need 1 attack at the most for the hellbat (as it will 5shot zealots up to 2 armor), so just focusing on armor sounds better (and that armor also goes for your medivacs and vikings now, so that can't really be that bad)


those all in style plays make the outcome less about your unit composition and more about your reaction. you want the smallest possible reaction to each all in. if you scout DT then a turret in each base should do the trick, an immortal all in? then focus on marine and widow mine and get a bunker or 2.

the point is, unless you are unbelievably weak for some reason, proper reactions will win all those situations.


I see, you're probably right, I should study a bit more on all in scouting so I can prepare accordingly...
also, I have a question... with that gas on 15, can you get the widow mines in time for a proxy oracle rush timing?
No. If Protoss skips a stalker, it is not possible.

You should delay the factory until you have marines 5 and 6 in production and have all marines in mineral line if you scout no stalker. If you have 5 marines, you will lose.


If Protoss is that all in, it is easily scouted and you can respond properly. The mines are out for most oracle rushes, but for the fee all out balls out all ins, a more extreme response is required
U_G_L_Y
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States516 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-15 18:41:09
April 15 2013 18:28 GMT
#44
On April 16 2013 01:31 tisalgado wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 16 2013 01:23 U_G_L_Y wrote:
On April 15 2013 23:50 tisalgado wrote:
On April 15 2013 23:46 Ozlo wrote:
On April 15 2013 23:28 tisalgado wrote:
I've been doing this... (diamond level only, please take it in consideration when pointing out mistakes)

on the early game, I go for widow mines, for they deal with oracles and with low zealot counts...
then marauder hellbat for later stages...
I don't discard marines, but usually have like 1 reactor and 6-7 tech labs on 3 bases.

I've been facing problems with 8-9 minutes busts, like immortal, void rays, Tails's DT drop, delayed 4gate, blink, etc... as the marauder count is yet not fearsome and widow mines don't seen to be enough.

edit: as for upgrades, you only really need 1 attack at the most for the hellbat (as it will 5shot zealots up to 2 armor), so just focusing on armor sounds better (and that armor also goes for your medivacs and vikings now, so that can't really be that bad)


those all in style plays make the outcome less about your unit composition and more about your reaction. you want the smallest possible reaction to each all in. if you scout DT then a turret in each base should do the trick, an immortal all in? then focus on marine and widow mine and get a bunker or 2.

the point is, unless you are unbelievably weak for some reason, proper reactions will win all those situations.


I see, you're probably right, I should study a bit more on all in scouting so I can prepare accordingly...
also, I have a question... with that gas on 15, can you get the widow mines in time for a proxy oracle rush timing?
No. If Protoss skips a stalker, it is not possible.

You should delay the factory until you have marines 5 and 6 in production and have all marines in mineral line if you scout no stalker. If you have 5 marines, you will lose.


delay the factory only for continued marine production, but still go for reactor after 2 marines, right?

Yes.

Protoss scouting 15 gas means they know no pressure can come. They have already decided to take 2 gas, so getting a couple of units before the starport is stupid.

As for this build in the OP, I think that a couple of aggressive immortals are a build order win, but I don't think that will occur to most Protosses.
Ozlo
Profile Joined March 2013
United States30 Posts
April 15 2013 19:10 GMT
#45
On April 16 2013 03:28 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 16 2013 01:31 tisalgado wrote:
On April 16 2013 01:23 U_G_L_Y wrote:
On April 15 2013 23:50 tisalgado wrote:
On April 15 2013 23:46 Ozlo wrote:
On April 15 2013 23:28 tisalgado wrote:
I've been doing this... (diamond level only, please take it in consideration when pointing out mistakes)

on the early game, I go for widow mines, for they deal with oracles and with low zealot counts...
then marauder hellbat for later stages...
I don't discard marines, but usually have like 1 reactor and 6-7 tech labs on 3 bases.

I've been facing problems with 8-9 minutes busts, like immortal, void rays, Tails's DT drop, delayed 4gate, blink, etc... as the marauder count is yet not fearsome and widow mines don't seen to be enough.

edit: as for upgrades, you only really need 1 attack at the most for the hellbat (as it will 5shot zealots up to 2 armor), so just focusing on armor sounds better (and that armor also goes for your medivacs and vikings now, so that can't really be that bad)


those all in style plays make the outcome less about your unit composition and more about your reaction. you want the smallest possible reaction to each all in. if you scout DT then a turret in each base should do the trick, an immortal all in? then focus on marine and widow mine and get a bunker or 2.

the point is, unless you are unbelievably weak for some reason, proper reactions will win all those situations.


I see, you're probably right, I should study a bit more on all in scouting so I can prepare accordingly...
also, I have a question... with that gas on 15, can you get the widow mines in time for a proxy oracle rush timing?
No. If Protoss skips a stalker, it is not possible.

You should delay the factory until you have marines 5 and 6 in production and have all marines in mineral line if you scout no stalker. If you have 5 marines, you will lose.


delay the factory only for continued marine production, but still go for reactor after 2 marines, right?

Yes.

Protoss scouting 15 gas means they know no pressure can come. They have already decided to take 2 gas, so getting a couple of units before the starport is stupid.

As for this build in the OP, I think that a couple of aggressive immortals are a build order win, but I don't think that will occur to most Protosses.


actually, most protoss end up taking damage from my initial 12-14 marine, 2 mine medivac pressure, and even if they dont, the amount of marines and mines is enough to stop most immortal/gateway all ins. then marauders hit the field and im all set.
Doc Brawler
Profile Joined November 2011
United States260 Posts
April 15 2013 19:12 GMT
#46
All those who incorporate HB into 3-4 base MMM play, how many HB do you produce at a time?
I feel the current 3 WM production used in TvZ might be good to copy, one reactor and one tech-lab for transformation and blue-flame.
I am become Death, the Destroyer of Worlds
Gool
Profile Joined August 2010
Argentina204 Posts
April 15 2013 19:44 GMT
#47
What about 3-4robo mass immortal?
HearthCraft
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States117 Posts
April 15 2013 20:13 GMT
#48
Simply put without marines, terran can't deal the dps they need against protoss, entirely replacing marines with hellbats, is not viable. Rather a few hellbats placed properly can accomplish what you are looking for.. and imagine a protoss with 1 oracle... ohh shit im dead..
"It is the mark of an educated man to entertain a thought without accepting it."
Treehead
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
999 Posts
April 15 2013 21:06 GMT
#49
Small gripes about build order modifications aside - does it seem like this is a strong comp to go for to other people?

1. Conc Shells + Marauder + Hellbat seem like a less micro-intensive version of sentry+zealot (where one unit keeps them close, and the other is good close up. In addition, Marauders are amazing against Stalkers, which are the biggest ground unit holding back the Hellbat in PvT.

2. For phoenixes/oracles (which are really, really good at chewing through hellbats) or HTs, a person can get ghosts as easily as ever (maybe we should include them anyway?) - and for other air-related threats (Voids/Tempests/Carriers), Vikings were the go-to anyway, and will be the same with this composition.

3. As the stargate shenanigans become more and more prevalent, early factories (and WMs) are going to become more common anyway, so having an early Factory+Reactor seems good before you even make the hellbats. The question is - will this comp be timing attack reliant (e.g. if it can't get the upgrades it needs, and therefore must push before the upgrade gap becomes a big factor) or is there a way of getting all the upgrades you need to remain competitive? And for that matter, what upgrades ARE needed to stay competitive? Can we use hellbats to slow down a protosses progress towards a 3/3 army - or reduce the effectiveness of such an army in time to get our own upgrades going?

These are the things we should be looking into in this thread, not "your gas needs to be 5 seconds earlier to hold ultra-early Oracle" concerns that can be easily addressed by just getting *slightly* earlier gas.
Lock0n
Profile Joined December 2012
United Kingdom184 Posts
April 15 2013 21:37 GMT
#50
Hellbat marauder sounds powerful as an all in to suprise the opponent, but an early armory significant cuts into Terran production, and the standard PvZ immortal sentry is a hard counter to it. Don't think it will be possible to hold a 9-10 min immortal sentry bunker bust from toss, although it might be possible to force a base trade.
govie
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
9334 Posts
April 15 2013 23:18 GMT
#51
I see it as a versatile build. Main army comp = hellbat/marauder/medivac/marine. U can drop early and transition into it. There are alot of options u caan go for after that. More bio/hellbat or ravens, ghosts, vikings etc. I dont think u can buld order win with this but u can certainly win with the basic comp.
The two NBA teams in states with legal weed are called the Nuggets and the Blazers...
GinDo
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
3327 Posts
April 15 2013 23:58 GMT
#52
On April 16 2013 04:44 Gool wrote:
What about 3-4robo mass immortal?


Well its not that hard to make Marines . Terran is gonna know your going for large numbers of Immortals. And is gonna be prepared.
ⱩŦ ƑⱠẬ$Ħ / ƩǤ ɈƩẬƉØƝǤ [ɌȻ] / ȊṂ.ṂṼⱣ / ẬȻƩɌ.ȊƝƝØṼẬŦȊØƝ / ẬȻƩɌ.ϟȻẬɌⱠƩŦŦ ϟⱠẬɎƩɌϟ ȻⱠẬƝ
kyllinghest
Profile Joined December 2011
Norway1607 Posts
April 16 2013 00:08 GMT
#53
My experience is that while hellbats are too good to completely forgo, so are marines. They bring speed and damage like no other terran unit. I can see how Hellbat Marauder can catch someone off guard and absolutely destroy them though, hellbats are most certainly very very strong.
"NO" -Has
Ozlo
Profile Joined March 2013
United States30 Posts
April 16 2013 00:17 GMT
#54
a marauder hellbat midgame seems to be rather powerful. Oracles can be shut down by a mine in each mineral line. then begin adding marines back in to the composition in controlled numbers helps with the DPS. hellbats are good throughout the game simply to go against zealots which become more and more prevalent in the late game when the toss spends all his gas on tech units.
LeeDawg
Profile Joined April 2012
United States1306 Posts
April 16 2013 00:41 GMT
#55
replays would be nice
:-)
govie
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
9334 Posts
April 16 2013 01:23 GMT
#56
On April 14 2013 02:57 Ozlo wrote:
I was thinking, in the early-midgame marines are the mainly needed to dps against zealots right? well here is my thinking, replace those marines with hellbats and dps against the lots faster.

my current TvP strat

10 depot
12 rax 2 marines before reactor
13 start a depot (to finish wall off) pull that scv and use it as a scout
15 gas
16 OC
expand
20-ish bunker at natural
at 100 gas factory - 2 widow mines - tech lab
after factory starport - 1 medivac - tech lab
attack with a bunch of marines 2 widow mines and a medivac
while this attack is happening get 2 more rax and an e bay get weapons +1 and tech switch the 2 rax to the 2 fresh made tech labs and get stim/combat shields

from here its MMM after adding a reactor to the starport

however what i propose is to tech switch the reactor on the barracks for the factory and make another tech lab on the rax and make 3 marauders and 2 hellbats/widow mines at a time.

it seems to me that this composition would be quite powerful in the midgame where drop play is so crucial and small pack style attacks are so powerful. then you can transition by adding more reactored barracks and getting lategame MMM with hellbats still because zealots become more prevalent then.


what are your thoughts on this?


To answer your question: I am no master but to me, the below version would be fun to try and could maybe work :


On 2 bases (25 scv's each+mules) u can exactly feed :

3 rax techlab --> marauders
1 factory reactored --> hellbats
1 starport reactored --> medivacs

1. This is without upgrades. Therefore I would start building marines and mines + upgrades +1 and stim (like u do) but would not transition into MMM after (no combat shield research needed).
2. I would try to just take 3rd add standard productionfacilities and a starport+techlab or ghost academy as needed. I would try to add higher tier units to counter whatever hes building and not marines. This because u will have much gas on 3 base anyway, then why not make higher tier units after your initial push.
3. Basically with your 1st push the marines would be the anti-air and if needed the vikings/ravens with your followup push.

raven/viking = against air/stalkers/collosi
ghosts = templar/archon

Because i hope tis could work, does not mean it will, but u could give it a test
The two NBA teams in states with legal weed are called the Nuggets and the Blazers...
Treehead
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
999 Posts
April 16 2013 02:00 GMT
#57
On April 16 2013 04:44 Gool wrote:
What about 3-4robo mass immortal?


Why do so many people think that Immortals against Hellbats isn't in favor of the Hellbats?

Sure, the comparison of dps and health per cost/supply is rather close (Hellbats win in resources IIRC, Immortals in supply), but you need one robo (200/100) to build one Immortal every 55 seconds. You need one reactored factory (200/150) to make four hellbats in 60 seconds. Would anyone ever actually do mass immortal no sentry? It sounds incredibly weak.
Douillos
Profile Joined May 2010
France3195 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-16 09:26:45
April 16 2013 09:26 GMT
#58
On April 16 2013 09:08 kyllinghest wrote:
My experience is that while hellbats are too good to completely forgo, so are marines. They bring speed and damage like no other terran unit. I can see how Hellbat Marauder can catch someone off guard and absolutely destroy them though, hellbats are most certainly very very strong.



I totally agree. I feel pure marauder/hellbat is a mistake. for me the current building set up is 1 rax w/reactor, 1 fact with reactor and only rax with tech labs after that for ghost and marauders.

tl;dr: At least 2 marines per cycle is mandatory IMO.
Look a giraffe! Look a fist!!
BronzeKnee
Profile Joined March 2011
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-16 09:54:14
April 16 2013 09:50 GMT
#59
The natural counter to this would simply be air units. But Protoss lacks a viable air unit with the DPS to handle this.

However, Archons would also be an effective counter. They don't take any bonus damage from either unit, can't be slowed by concussive shells, and their large size means that the Hellbat AOE isn't going to be that effective. Plus they do bonus damage to both Marauders and Hellbats.
Douillos
Profile Joined May 2010
France3195 Posts
April 16 2013 10:28 GMT
#60
On April 16 2013 18:50 BronzeKnee wrote:
The natural counter to this would simply be air units. But Protoss lacks a viable air unit with the DPS to handle this.

However, Archons would also be an effective counter. They don't take any bonus damage from either unit, can't be slowed by concussive shells, and their large size means that the Hellbat AOE isn't going to be that effective. Plus they do bonus damage to both Marauders and Hellbats.



Immortal archon does counter this (I had the experience yesterday) but you should have ghosts out by then.
Look a giraffe! Look a fist!!
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