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I was thinking, in the early-midgame marines are the mainly needed to dps against zealots right? well here is my thinking, replace those marines with hellbats and dps against the lots faster.
my current TvP strat
10 depot
12 rax 2 marines before reactor
13 start a depot (to finish wall off) pull that scv and use it as a scout
15 gas
16 OC
expand
20-ish bunker at natural
at 100 gas factory - 2 widow mines - tech lab
after factory starport - 1 medivac - tech lab
attack with a bunch of marines 2 widow mines and a medivac
while this attack is happening get 2 more rax and an e bay get weapons +1 and tech switch the 2 rax to the 2 fresh made tech labs and get stim/combat shields
from here its MMM after adding a reactor to the starport
however what i propose is to tech switch the reactor on the barracks for the factory and make another tech lab on the rax and make 3 marauders and 2 hellbats/widow mines at a time.
it seems to me that this composition would be quite powerful in the midgame where drop play is so crucial and small pack style attacks are so powerful. then you can transition by adding more reactored barracks and getting lategame MMM with hellbats still because zealots become more prevalent then.
what are your thoughts on this?
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On April 14 2013 02:57 Ozlo wrote:
I was thinking, in the early-midgame marines are the mainly needed to dps against zealots right? well here is my thinking, replace those marines with hellbats and dps against the lots faster.
my current TvP strat
10 depot
12 rax 2 marines before reactor
13 start a depot (to finish wall off) pull that scv and use it as a scout
15 gas
16 OC
expand
20-ish bunker at natural
at 100 gas factory - 2 widow mines - tech lab
after factory starport - 1 medivac - tech lab
attack with a bunch of marines 2 widow mines and a medivac
while this attack is happening get 2 more rax and an e bay get weapons +1 and tech switch the 2 rax to the 2 fresh made tech labs and get stim/combat shields
from here its MMM after adding a reactor to the starport
however what i propose is to tech switch the reactor on the barracks for the factory and make another tech lab on the rax and make 3 marauders and 2 hellbats/widow mines at a time.
it seems to me that this composition would be quite powerful in the midgame where drop play is so crucial and small pack style attacks are so powerful. then you can transition by adding more reactored barracks and getting lategame MMM with hellbats still because zealots become more prevalent then.
what are your thoughts on this?
I think it was Last? Who did this against huk. Went into a 3 base timing of hell bat marauder viking with some medivacs to close the game. Worked really well.
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I've been testing this in a unit tester. and it seems that this composition punches above its weight class without micro.though i dont know what forcefields will enter into the equation
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There is a Hellbat-drop build order which includes 2 gases (13, 19), armory and production of 4 hellbats after 4 hellions or mines. This build also includes reactored starport for fast 2 medivacs to drop the 4 hellbats.
I think you can transition well from this into marauder hellbat viking. That is if you don't kill him immediately.
(basically add CC while dropping and add more rax with techlabs)
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about an hour ago, ForGG did this to Grubby. While Grubby had somewhat of an advantage of coming out ahead of early skirmishes and harassment with MSC recall he could storm all he wanted, the power of a lot of medivacs healing marauders and hellbats was too much for him. ForGG just took the storms, healed through, and still won the engagement to cancel Grubbys third. Then about two minutes later he was back and facetanked about 7+ storms without much micro yet still won easily with pretty much only hellbats + marauders + medivacs. Yes, he was pretty far ahead at that point, but with so many storms hitting really good I would have expected the fight to be at least close. Turns out hellbats destroy Zealots, and without the meatshield everything else melts to marauders.
it is a truly fearsome combination (although it is worth mentioning that he did not go pure marauders + hellbats, got quite some marines early on and still mixed in a few later, of which none survived the massive storms)
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Tried it now (master). It worked quite well. I have had some issues with TvP recently so I gonna use it now. It seems very strong.
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On April 14 2013 07:01 AyaaLa wrote:
Tried it now (master). It worked quite well. I have had some issues with TvP recently so I gonna use it now. It seems very strong.
Exactly what did you try? My plan or the playstyle in general?
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i had ok success with hellbat-marine in the hots beta.
i don't think you need marauders unless he goes like pure stalker collusi.
ghost and vikings are obviously needed... if you are gonna go marauder hellbat medivac ONLY then he can just make 6 collusi.
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Would it be better to get vehicle plating if you're incorporating hellbats into your TvP? I don't really know any of the stats but it seems that you might get more utility out of vehicle plating when you have three units that benefit from it.
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Would it be advisable to just switch all the reactor rax into tech lab rax and built facts/starpots on them? Seems like it's worth a shot.
The only problem I can see with this is if Protoss transitions into skytoss, but that is really hard for toss to do so I don't think it's worth fretting over
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even if they do, you can make vikings and mines. not to mention that tech lab barracks can make marines too.
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Dragon has done this alot with succes (armycomp that is)
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This sounds awesome in theory. Anyone got a pro BO for it?
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what i posted is the TvP build flash used in the winter championships. though the hellbat marauder was my own adaptation 
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Ive been thinking about this and while it sounds like it might be stronger in a straight up fight you have a serious upgrade problem. Especially if you want to get ship famage also. To be constantly upping every relevant thing you also need 3 armories! Which is 450/300 you cant spend on units even without considering upgrade costs.
Im still gonna try this when i get home tomorrow though.
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I was looking to try and make something like this work. Will have a play around with the Build order and see what happens. Thanks for the post.
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On April 15 2013 03:00 Deepflow wrote:
Ive been thinking about this and while it sounds like it might be stronger in a straight up fight you have a serious upgrade problem. Especially if you want to get ship famage also. To be constantly upping every relevant thing you also need 3 armories! Which is 450/300 you cant spend on units even without considering upgrade costs.
Im still gonna try this when i get home tomorrow though.
hellbats are so good you dont really have to upgrade them. and they are beefy as fuck so they make good meatshields
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On April 14 2013 08:43 BoggieMan wrote:
i had ok success with hellbat-marine in the hots beta.
i don't think you need marauders unless he goes like pure stalker collusi.
ghost and vikings are obviously needed... if you are gonna go marauder hellbat medivac ONLY then he can just make 6 collusi.
A reason for hellbats replacing marines in late game is that they don't get gibbed by colossus and storm splash, while still being able to tank and kill zealots very effectively. One of the reasons why marines are used despite how quickly they drop to splash is because you needed them for zealots, which otherwise just chop up marauders. Hellbats can take over that role. Different upgrade paths is a pretty big deal though.
And like marines, hellbats only cost minerals so it won't affect viking / ghost production (besides gas spent on factories etc.)
Not sure why OP would go from hellbat marauder medivac midgame into MMM though, I would think it would be the other way around, starting MMM and slowly mixing hellbats in to replace marines.
Hellbats are super good and I see them getting nerfed once they start being used more (like old blue flame).
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On April 15 2013 04:47 Genome852 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 08:43 BoggieMan wrote:
i had ok success with hellbat-marine in the hots beta.
i don't think you need marauders unless he goes like pure stalker collusi.
ghost and vikings are obviously needed... if you are gonna go marauder hellbat medivac ONLY then he can just make 6 collusi. A reason for hellbats replacing marines in late game is that they don't get gibbed by colossus and storm splash, while still being able to tank and kill zealots very effectively. One of the reasons why marines are used despite how quickly they drop to splash is because you needed them for zealots, which otherwise just chop up marauders. Hellbats can take over that role. Different upgrade paths is a pretty big deal though. And like marines, hellbats only cost minerals so it won't affect viking / ghost production (besides gas spent on factories etc.) Not sure why OP would go from hellbat marauder medivac midgame into MMM though, I would think it would be the other way around, starting MMM and slowly mixing hellbats in to replace marines. Hellbats are super good and I see them getting nerfed once they start being used more (like old blue flame).
I really hope not. Hellbats are actually ridiculously slow compared to the general "flow" of the terran style. Yes, they are very strong, but they just feel so awkward to use. Having something new to play with in TvP late game is obviously a good change, otherwise we'll be stuck with mmmvg while protoss gets all the new units to play with :/
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I am a mid master terran and I have been incorporating Hellbats in my mid- und lategameplay to great success! I haven't used a specific BO, I just replace all my rax at reactors with factories sometime after my 3rd is secured and have been going with that. I will try a different approach tomorrow with a new BO so I am getting Hellbats earlier and I will report in this thread how sucessful I was :D
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Hellbat,marauder,medivac sounds good
As a terran allways have some spare gas when game goes on, i would suggest to build some ravens for PDD+HSM with your push. This means that each PDD takes 400+ damage instead of your troops for only 10 energy, so u can HSM+PDD mutiple times in 1 engagement. It gives ur army and mostly hellbats the time to reach there target (hellbat short range), once they do u have better chance of winning any fight
PDD effective against Marauders, Vikings, Banshees, Battlecruisers, Thors, Missile Turrets, Stalkers, Phoenixes, Photon Cannons, Queens, Mutalisks, Corruptors, Hydralisks, Spore Crawlers.
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Wouldn't 'airtoss' completely destroy this though? I know airtoss isn't that commonly used in pvt, but vs this it might work wonders.(Just theorycrafting)
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ive been experimenting and it seems best to start adding the hellbats after i get the armory for regular upgrades.
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On April 15 2013 09:03 Henk wrote:
Wouldn't 'airtoss' completely destroy this though? I know airtoss isn't that commonly used in pvt, but vs this it might work wonders.(Just theorycrafting)
the thing is skytoss is ridiculously difficult to get to so there will be a ton of timings when this can do devastating damage due to the limited number of protoss ground forces. photon overcharge does nothing to stimmed marauders healed by medivacs. Also skytoss is very slow and bad at responding to drops when it gets to over 3 bases.
Even if the protoss actually get a sizable skytoss force all terrans need to do is switch the rax/factory add ons and start pumping out marine/mine. Provided that you've already done enough damage with marauder helbat attacks, the protoss simple cannot have both skytoss AND storms out before being overwhelmed by marines. skytoss isnt the answer
in fact from a protoss standpoint this feels very hard to combat. Archons take too long to get to and die to EMPs(which the terran can get with his excess gas) and marauder/helbat is much less susceptible to storms due to them having more hp and clumps less. Once the zealot force melts to helbat fire there's nothing stopping small stimmed marauder squads to run up and snipe colossi
Does anyone have any good suggestions to combat this?
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On April 15 2013 14:34 uh-oh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 09:03 Henk wrote:
Wouldn't 'airtoss' completely destroy this though? I know airtoss isn't that commonly used in pvt, but vs this it might work wonders.(Just theorycrafting) the thing is skytoss is ridiculously difficult to get to so there will be a ton of timings when this can do devastating damage due to the limited number of protoss ground forces. photon overcharge does nothing to stimmed marauders healed by medivacs. Also skytoss is very slow and bad at responding to drops when it gets to over 3 bases. Even if the protoss actually get a sizable skytoss force all terrans need to do is switch the rax/factory add ons and start pumping out marine/mine. Provided that you've already done enough damage with marauder helbat attacks, the protoss simple cannot have both skytoss AND storms out before being overwhelmed by marines. skytoss isnt the answer in fact from a protoss standpoint this feels very hard to combat. Archons take too long to get to and die to EMPs(which the terran can get with his excess gas) and marauder/helbat is much less susceptible to storms due to them having more hp and clumps less. Once the zealot force melts to helbat fire there's nothing stopping small stimmed marauder squads to run up and snipe colossi Does anyone have any good suggestions to combat this?
my toss practice partner has been experimenting with incorporating DT's into his play. the hellbat marauder is an excessively mineral heavy playstyle and making me spend scams cuts into my mineral income.
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On April 15 2013 14:34 uh-oh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 09:03 Henk wrote:
Wouldn't 'airtoss' completely destroy this though? I know airtoss isn't that commonly used in pvt, but vs this it might work wonders.(Just theorycrafting) the thing is skytoss is ridiculously difficult to get to so there will be a ton of timings when this can do devastating damage due to the limited number of protoss ground forces. photon overcharge does nothing to stimmed marauders healed by medivacs. Also skytoss is very slow and bad at responding to drops when it gets to over 3 bases. Even if the protoss actually get a sizable skytoss force all terrans need to do is switch the rax/factory add ons and start pumping out marine/mine. Provided that you've already done enough damage with marauder helbat attacks, the protoss simple cannot have both skytoss AND storms out before being overwhelmed by marines. skytoss isnt the answer in fact from a protoss standpoint this feels very hard to combat. Archons take too long to get to and die to EMPs(which the terran can get with his excess gas) and marauder/helbat is much less susceptible to storms due to them having more hp and clumps less. Once the zealot force melts to helbat fire there's nothing stopping small stimmed marauder squads to run up and snipe colossi Does anyone have any good suggestions to combat this?
Collosi + Gateway ala Rain (with Archons before storm being safer though) actually does wonders vs this, just don't a-move with all your zealots while the hellbats are still alive and you'll crush this. You can also use stutter step hold position micro to get a lot of free shots off on the hellbats due to their slow movement speed and inability to stim.
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On April 15 2013 14:34 uh-oh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 09:03 Henk wrote:
Wouldn't 'airtoss' completely destroy this though? I know airtoss isn't that commonly used in pvt, but vs this it might work wonders.(Just theorycrafting) the thing is skytoss is ridiculously difficult to get to so there will be a ton of timings when this can do devastating damage due to the limited number of protoss ground forces. photon overcharge does nothing to stimmed marauders healed by medivacs. Also skytoss is very slow and bad at responding to drops when it gets to over 3 bases. Even if the protoss actually get a sizable skytoss force all terrans need to do is switch the rax/factory add ons and start pumping out marine/mine. Provided that you've already done enough damage with marauder helbat attacks, the protoss simple cannot have both skytoss AND storms out before being overwhelmed by marines. skytoss isnt the answer in fact from a protoss standpoint this feels very hard to combat. Archons take too long to get to and die to EMPs(which the terran can get with his excess gas) and marauder/helbat is much less susceptible to storms due to them having more hp and clumps less. Once the zealot force melts to helbat fire there's nothing stopping small stimmed marauder squads to run up and snipe colossi Does anyone have any good suggestions to combat this?
Phoenix+blink stalkers play seems logical to me. Counter everything, could work right?
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I for my part believe in keeping marines in the composition and adding hellbats. What I usually do is after building the reactor for my starport on my factory, I lift and go build another reactor from which I pump out hellbats. This usually works out well because i start the armory at the same time as my +1, stim etc. finishes (with another engie bay built when armory is 50% done).
So my first poke is hellbat free but then I start having a really nice composition. Concerning upgrades I get + armor on vehicles so its shared between vikings and hellbats.
So basically I get 1 rax with reactor, 1 factory with reactor and then only rax with tech labs and that defines my composition.
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Might be worth playing around with...
On April 15 2013 08:23 govie wrote:Hellbat,marauder,medivac sounds good As a terran allways have some spare gas when game goes on, i would suggest to build some ravens for PDD+HSM with your push. This means that each PDD takes 400+ damage instead of your troops for only 10 energy, so u can HSM+PDD mutiple times in 1 engagement. It gives ur army and mostly hellbats the time to reach there target (hellbat short range), once they do u have better chance of winning any fight PDD effective against Marauders, Vikings, Banshees, Battlecruisers, Thors, Missile Turrets, Stalkers, Phoenixes, Photon Cannons, Queens, Mutalisks, Corruptors, Hydralisks, Spore Crawlers.
and Tempests
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Wouldnt this get worse and worse throughout the game as the upgrades are different for the hellbat and marauder? You cannot afford both upgrade paths. Also wouldn't oracle or voidrays destroy this??
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I actually have a practice partner that used to do this against me. What I eventually found that deals with it is: as soon as you see Terran going hellbats, go triple robo immortal, and spend excess resources on stalkers.
Hellbats are not unbeatable...unless toss insists on continuing with zealots. Pure immortal handles the comp just fine. Overreact with triple robe, then supplement with gateway units if Terran relaxes his composition.
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On April 15 2013 04:29 Ozlo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 03:00 Deepflow wrote:
Ive been thinking about this and while it sounds like it might be stronger in a straight up fight you have a serious upgrade problem. Especially if you want to get ship famage also. To be constantly upping every relevant thing you also need 3 armories! Which is 450/300 you cant spend on units even without considering upgrade costs.
Im still gonna try this when i get home tomorrow though. hellbats are so good you dont really have to upgrade them. and they are beefy as fuck so they make good meatshields
Still, the upgrades are useful. I'd rather have tough as well-done steak than beefy units.
Will give this composition a go, since TvP is still my worst matchup.
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On April 15 2013 22:31 abefroman wrote:
I actually have a practice partner that used to do this against me. What I eventually found that deals with it is: as soon as you see Terran going hellbats, go triple robo immortal, and spend excess resources on stalkers.
Hellbats are not unbeatable...unless toss insists on continuing with zealots. Pure immortal handles the comp just fine. Overreact with triple robe, then supplement with gateway units if Terran relaxes his composition.
if you go 3 robo for immortals... have fun getting dropped and having the bulk of ur army be too slow to properly deal with it. that and the tech lab rax can still make marines. and this handy thing called ghosts.
the entire point of the hellbat marauder composition is that it punches above its weight class in small engagements against gateway units (the immediate response to drops). therefore, the comp is perfect for drops and doing large amounts of damage. and on top of that, the reactored factories can make widow mines in case you push with immortals.
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I incorporate hellbat in MMM force asap i got the armory, i get reactor on the unused factory and start hellbat prod. When i got 3 saturated base i go for a second factory instead of another couple of rax. Hellbats are really really strong vs protoss no doubt about it. Even if they are not so mobile they allow MMM force to have a good tanking front. The only issue with hellbat is that you can't runaway so when you engage you better be aware of what your facing and know if you can engage it straight.
When I incorporate Hellbat in MMM i always go for plating instead of air attack upgrade in the armory because the plating is good for Hellbat+Viking+Medivac. You can argue that you loose some dps for viking but as hellbat is a 'tank' unit it's like zealot it's better to upgrade armor i think.
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I've been doing this... (diamond level only, please take it in consideration when pointing out mistakes)
on the early game, I go for widow mines, for they deal with oracles and with low zealot counts...
then marauder hellbat for later stages...
I don't discard marines, but usually have like 1 reactor and 6-7 tech labs on 3 bases.
I've been facing problems with 8-9 minutes busts, like immortal, void rays, Tails's DT drop, delayed 4gate, blink, etc... as the marauder count is yet not fearsome and widow mines don't seen to be enough.
edit: as for upgrades, you only really need 1 attack at the most for the hellbat (as it will 5shot zealots up to 2 armor), so just focusing on armor sounds better (and that armor also goes for your medivacs and vikings now, so that can't really be that bad)
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On April 15 2013 23:28 tisalgado wrote:
I've been doing this... (diamond level only, please take it in consideration when pointing out mistakes)
on the early game, I go for widow mines, for they deal with oracles and with low zealot counts...
then marauder hellbat for later stages...
I don't discard marines, but usually have like 1 reactor and 6-7 tech labs on 3 bases.
I've been facing problems with 8-9 minutes busts, like immortal, void rays, Tails's DT drop, delayed 4gate, blink, etc... as the marauder count is yet not fearsome and widow mines don't seen to be enough.
edit: as for upgrades, you only really need 1 attack at the most for the hellbat (as it will 5shot zealots up to 2 armor), so just focusing on armor sounds better (and that armor also goes for your medivacs and vikings now, so that can't really be that bad)
those all in style plays make the outcome less about your unit composition and more about your reaction. you want the smallest possible reaction to each all in. if you scout DT then a turret in each base should do the trick, an immortal all in? then focus on marine and widow mine and get a bunker or 2.
the point is, unless you are unbelievably weak for some reason, proper reactions will win all those situations.
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On April 15 2013 23:46 Ozlo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 23:28 tisalgado wrote:
I've been doing this... (diamond level only, please take it in consideration when pointing out mistakes)
on the early game, I go for widow mines, for they deal with oracles and with low zealot counts...
then marauder hellbat for later stages...
I don't discard marines, but usually have like 1 reactor and 6-7 tech labs on 3 bases.
I've been facing problems with 8-9 minutes busts, like immortal, void rays, Tails's DT drop, delayed 4gate, blink, etc... as the marauder count is yet not fearsome and widow mines don't seen to be enough.
edit: as for upgrades, you only really need 1 attack at the most for the hellbat (as it will 5shot zealots up to 2 armor), so just focusing on armor sounds better (and that armor also goes for your medivacs and vikings now, so that can't really be that bad) those all in style plays make the outcome less about your unit composition and more about your reaction. you want the smallest possible reaction to each all in. if you scout DT then a turret in each base should do the trick, an immortal all in? then focus on marine and widow mine and get a bunker or 2. the point is, unless you are unbelievably weak for some reason, proper reactions will win all those situations.
I see, you're probably right, I should study a bit more on all in scouting so I can prepare accordingly...
also, I have a question... with that gas on 15, can you get the widow mines in time for a proxy oracle rush timing?
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they come out exactly on time for an oracle rush. however if the toss is going all out balls out on the rush... a bunker near your main min line will also work until you can salvage it
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On April 15 2013 23:56 Ozlo wrote:
they come out exactly on time for an oracle rush. however if the toss is going all out balls out on the rush... a bunker near your main min line will also work until you can salvage it
prblem is you don't always find the proxy SG, or get your scout denied by a single stalker with a slitghly delayed oracle... it's hard to judge to judge if you'll need a bunker for those (as you'll need 40 seconds buidling it, it must be started ewally soon... and building it without need may leave you vulnerable to a frontal bust.
But if the widow mine comes out in time for the rush, no problems... I'll try 15 gas some tonight (I've been doing 13 gas for fearing the oracle would arrive before I could defend myself
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On April 15 2013 23:50 tisalgado wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 23:46 Ozlo wrote:On April 15 2013 23:28 tisalgado wrote:
I've been doing this... (diamond level only, please take it in consideration when pointing out mistakes)
on the early game, I go for widow mines, for they deal with oracles and with low zealot counts...
then marauder hellbat for later stages...
I don't discard marines, but usually have like 1 reactor and 6-7 tech labs on 3 bases.
I've been facing problems with 8-9 minutes busts, like immortal, void rays, Tails's DT drop, delayed 4gate, blink, etc... as the marauder count is yet not fearsome and widow mines don't seen to be enough.
edit: as for upgrades, you only really need 1 attack at the most for the hellbat (as it will 5shot zealots up to 2 armor), so just focusing on armor sounds better (and that armor also goes for your medivacs and vikings now, so that can't really be that bad) those all in style plays make the outcome less about your unit composition and more about your reaction. you want the smallest possible reaction to each all in. if you scout DT then a turret in each base should do the trick, an immortal all in? then focus on marine and widow mine and get a bunker or 2. the point is, unless you are unbelievably weak for some reason, proper reactions will win all those situations. I see, you're probably right, I should study a bit more on all in scouting so I can prepare accordingly... also, I have a question... with that gas on 15, can you get the widow mines in time for a proxy oracle rush timing? No. If Protoss skips a stalker, it is not possible.
You should delay the factory until you have marines 5 and 6 in production and have all marines in mineral line if you scout no stalker. If you have 5 marines, you will lose.
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The point about going immortals is valid, but not something that can't be overcome. I've actually been playing Zerg lately, and in zvt going roach hydra.....where the main knock on it is ability to deal with drops.
And you know what? It is so much easier to deal with drops now with the slower, stronger army. When you KNOW you will win any straight up engagement, blowing 1k or more on static defense to be safe at home is pretty cheap. In terms of toss...this translates to 3-4 cannons at each base and stalker warp ins at home deal with drops just fine.
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On April 16 2013 01:23 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 23:50 tisalgado wrote:On April 15 2013 23:46 Ozlo wrote:On April 15 2013 23:28 tisalgado wrote:
I've been doing this... (diamond level only, please take it in consideration when pointing out mistakes)
on the early game, I go for widow mines, for they deal with oracles and with low zealot counts...
then marauder hellbat for later stages...
I don't discard marines, but usually have like 1 reactor and 6-7 tech labs on 3 bases.
I've been facing problems with 8-9 minutes busts, like immortal, void rays, Tails's DT drop, delayed 4gate, blink, etc... as the marauder count is yet not fearsome and widow mines don't seen to be enough.
edit: as for upgrades, you only really need 1 attack at the most for the hellbat (as it will 5shot zealots up to 2 armor), so just focusing on armor sounds better (and that armor also goes for your medivacs and vikings now, so that can't really be that bad) those all in style plays make the outcome less about your unit composition and more about your reaction. you want the smallest possible reaction to each all in. if you scout DT then a turret in each base should do the trick, an immortal all in? then focus on marine and widow mine and get a bunker or 2. the point is, unless you are unbelievably weak for some reason, proper reactions will win all those situations. I see, you're probably right, I should study a bit more on all in scouting so I can prepare accordingly... also, I have a question... with that gas on 15, can you get the widow mines in time for a proxy oracle rush timing? No. If Protoss skips a stalker, it is not possible. You should delay the factory until you have marines 5 and 6 in production and have all marines in mineral line if you scout no stalker. If you have 5 marines, you will lose.
delay the factory only for continued marine production, but still go for reactor after 2 marines, right?
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On April 16 2013 01:23 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 23:50 tisalgado wrote:On April 15 2013 23:46 Ozlo wrote:On April 15 2013 23:28 tisalgado wrote:
I've been doing this... (diamond level only, please take it in consideration when pointing out mistakes)
on the early game, I go for widow mines, for they deal with oracles and with low zealot counts...
then marauder hellbat for later stages...
I don't discard marines, but usually have like 1 reactor and 6-7 tech labs on 3 bases.
I've been facing problems with 8-9 minutes busts, like immortal, void rays, Tails's DT drop, delayed 4gate, blink, etc... as the marauder count is yet not fearsome and widow mines don't seen to be enough.
edit: as for upgrades, you only really need 1 attack at the most for the hellbat (as it will 5shot zealots up to 2 armor), so just focusing on armor sounds better (and that armor also goes for your medivacs and vikings now, so that can't really be that bad) those all in style plays make the outcome less about your unit composition and more about your reaction. you want the smallest possible reaction to each all in. if you scout DT then a turret in each base should do the trick, an immortal all in? then focus on marine and widow mine and get a bunker or 2. the point is, unless you are unbelievably weak for some reason, proper reactions will win all those situations. I see, you're probably right, I should study a bit more on all in scouting so I can prepare accordingly... also, I have a question... with that gas on 15, can you get the widow mines in time for a proxy oracle rush timing? No. If Protoss skips a stalker, it is not possible. You should delay the factory until you have marines 5 and 6 in production and have all marines in mineral line if you scout no stalker. If you have 5 marines, you will lose.
If Protoss is that all in, it is easily scouted and you can respond properly. The mines are out for most oracle rushes, but for the fee all out balls out all ins, a more extreme response is required
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On April 16 2013 01:31 tisalgado wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 01:23 U_G_L_Y wrote:On April 15 2013 23:50 tisalgado wrote:On April 15 2013 23:46 Ozlo wrote:On April 15 2013 23:28 tisalgado wrote:
I've been doing this... (diamond level only, please take it in consideration when pointing out mistakes)
on the early game, I go for widow mines, for they deal with oracles and with low zealot counts...
then marauder hellbat for later stages...
I don't discard marines, but usually have like 1 reactor and 6-7 tech labs on 3 bases.
I've been facing problems with 8-9 minutes busts, like immortal, void rays, Tails's DT drop, delayed 4gate, blink, etc... as the marauder count is yet not fearsome and widow mines don't seen to be enough.
edit: as for upgrades, you only really need 1 attack at the most for the hellbat (as it will 5shot zealots up to 2 armor), so just focusing on armor sounds better (and that armor also goes for your medivacs and vikings now, so that can't really be that bad) those all in style plays make the outcome less about your unit composition and more about your reaction. you want the smallest possible reaction to each all in. if you scout DT then a turret in each base should do the trick, an immortal all in? then focus on marine and widow mine and get a bunker or 2. the point is, unless you are unbelievably weak for some reason, proper reactions will win all those situations. I see, you're probably right, I should study a bit more on all in scouting so I can prepare accordingly... also, I have a question... with that gas on 15, can you get the widow mines in time for a proxy oracle rush timing? No. If Protoss skips a stalker, it is not possible. You should delay the factory until you have marines 5 and 6 in production and have all marines in mineral line if you scout no stalker. If you have 5 marines, you will lose. delay the factory only for continued marine production, but still go for reactor after 2 marines, right?
Yes.
Protoss scouting 15 gas means they know no pressure can come. They have already decided to take 2 gas, so getting a couple of units before the starport is stupid.
As for this build in the OP, I think that a couple of aggressive immortals are a build order win, but I don't think that will occur to most Protosses.
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On April 16 2013 03:28 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 01:31 tisalgado wrote:On April 16 2013 01:23 U_G_L_Y wrote:On April 15 2013 23:50 tisalgado wrote:On April 15 2013 23:46 Ozlo wrote:On April 15 2013 23:28 tisalgado wrote:
I've been doing this... (diamond level only, please take it in consideration when pointing out mistakes)
on the early game, I go for widow mines, for they deal with oracles and with low zealot counts...
then marauder hellbat for later stages...
I don't discard marines, but usually have like 1 reactor and 6-7 tech labs on 3 bases.
I've been facing problems with 8-9 minutes busts, like immortal, void rays, Tails's DT drop, delayed 4gate, blink, etc... as the marauder count is yet not fearsome and widow mines don't seen to be enough.
edit: as for upgrades, you only really need 1 attack at the most for the hellbat (as it will 5shot zealots up to 2 armor), so just focusing on armor sounds better (and that armor also goes for your medivacs and vikings now, so that can't really be that bad) those all in style plays make the outcome less about your unit composition and more about your reaction. you want the smallest possible reaction to each all in. if you scout DT then a turret in each base should do the trick, an immortal all in? then focus on marine and widow mine and get a bunker or 2. the point is, unless you are unbelievably weak for some reason, proper reactions will win all those situations. I see, you're probably right, I should study a bit more on all in scouting so I can prepare accordingly... also, I have a question... with that gas on 15, can you get the widow mines in time for a proxy oracle rush timing? No. If Protoss skips a stalker, it is not possible. You should delay the factory until you have marines 5 and 6 in production and have all marines in mineral line if you scout no stalker. If you have 5 marines, you will lose. delay the factory only for continued marine production, but still go for reactor after 2 marines, right? Yes. Protoss scouting 15 gas means they know no pressure can come. They have already decided to take 2 gas, so getting a couple of units before the starport is stupid. As for this build in the OP, I think that a couple of aggressive immortals are a build order win, but I don't think that will occur to most Protosses.
actually, most protoss end up taking damage from my initial 12-14 marine, 2 mine medivac pressure, and even if they dont, the amount of marines and mines is enough to stop most immortal/gateway all ins. then marauders hit the field and im all set.
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All those who incorporate HB into 3-4 base MMM play, how many HB do you produce at a time?
I feel the current 3 WM production used in TvZ might be good to copy, one reactor and one tech-lab for transformation and blue-flame.
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What about 3-4robo mass immortal?
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Simply put without marines, terran can't deal the dps they need against protoss, entirely replacing marines with hellbats, is not viable. Rather a few hellbats placed properly can accomplish what you are looking for.. and imagine a protoss with 1 oracle... ohh shit im dead..
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Small gripes about build order modifications aside - does it seem like this is a strong comp to go for to other people?
1. Conc Shells + Marauder + Hellbat seem like a less micro-intensive version of sentry+zealot (where one unit keeps them close, and the other is good close up. In addition, Marauders are amazing against Stalkers, which are the biggest ground unit holding back the Hellbat in PvT.
2. For phoenixes/oracles (which are really, really good at chewing through hellbats) or HTs, a person can get ghosts as easily as ever (maybe we should include them anyway?) - and for other air-related threats (Voids/Tempests/Carriers), Vikings were the go-to anyway, and will be the same with this composition.
3. As the stargate shenanigans become more and more prevalent, early factories (and WMs) are going to become more common anyway, so having an early Factory+Reactor seems good before you even make the hellbats. The question is - will this comp be timing attack reliant (e.g. if it can't get the upgrades it needs, and therefore must push before the upgrade gap becomes a big factor) or is there a way of getting all the upgrades you need to remain competitive? And for that matter, what upgrades ARE needed to stay competitive? Can we use hellbats to slow down a protosses progress towards a 3/3 army - or reduce the effectiveness of such an army in time to get our own upgrades going?
These are the things we should be looking into in this thread, not "your gas needs to be 5 seconds earlier to hold ultra-early Oracle" concerns that can be easily addressed by just getting *slightly* earlier gas.
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Hellbat marauder sounds powerful as an all in to suprise the opponent, but an early armory significant cuts into Terran production, and the standard PvZ immortal sentry is a hard counter to it. Don't think it will be possible to hold a 9-10 min immortal sentry bunker bust from toss, although it might be possible to force a base trade.
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I see it as a versatile build. Main army comp = hellbat/marauder/medivac/marine. U can drop early and transition into it. There are alot of options u caan go for after that. More bio/hellbat or ravens, ghosts, vikings etc. I dont think u can buld order win with this but u can certainly win with the basic comp.
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On April 16 2013 04:44 Gool wrote:
What about 3-4robo mass immortal?
Well its not that hard to make Marines . Terran is gonna know your going for large numbers of Immortals. And is gonna be prepared.
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My experience is that while hellbats are too good to completely forgo, so are marines. They bring speed and damage like no other terran unit. I can see how Hellbat Marauder can catch someone off guard and absolutely destroy them though, hellbats are most certainly very very strong.
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a marauder hellbat midgame seems to be rather powerful. Oracles can be shut down by a mine in each mineral line. then begin adding marines back in to the composition in controlled numbers helps with the DPS. hellbats are good throughout the game simply to go against zealots which become more and more prevalent in the late game when the toss spends all his gas on tech units.
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On April 14 2013 02:57 Ozlo wrote:
I was thinking, in the early-midgame marines are the mainly needed to dps against zealots right? well here is my thinking, replace those marines with hellbats and dps against the lots faster.
my current TvP strat
10 depot
12 rax 2 marines before reactor
13 start a depot (to finish wall off) pull that scv and use it as a scout
15 gas
16 OC
expand
20-ish bunker at natural
at 100 gas factory - 2 widow mines - tech lab
after factory starport - 1 medivac - tech lab
attack with a bunch of marines 2 widow mines and a medivac
while this attack is happening get 2 more rax and an e bay get weapons +1 and tech switch the 2 rax to the 2 fresh made tech labs and get stim/combat shields
from here its MMM after adding a reactor to the starport
however what i propose is to tech switch the reactor on the barracks for the factory and make another tech lab on the rax and make 3 marauders and 2 hellbats/widow mines at a time.
it seems to me that this composition would be quite powerful in the midgame where drop play is so crucial and small pack style attacks are so powerful. then you can transition by adding more reactored barracks and getting lategame MMM with hellbats still because zealots become more prevalent then.
what are your thoughts on this?
To answer your question: I am no master but to me, the below version would be fun to try and could maybe work :
On 2 bases (25 scv's each+mules) u can exactly feed :
3 rax techlab --> marauders
1 factory reactored --> hellbats
1 starport reactored --> medivacs
1. This is without upgrades. Therefore I would start building marines and mines + upgrades +1 and stim (like u do) but would not transition into MMM after (no combat shield research needed).
2. I would try to just take 3rd add standard productionfacilities and a starport+techlab or ghost academy as needed. I would try to add higher tier units to counter whatever hes building and not marines. This because u will have much gas on 3 base anyway, then why not make higher tier units after your initial push.
3. Basically with your 1st push the marines would be the anti-air and if needed the vikings/ravens with your followup push.
raven/viking = against air/stalkers/collosi
ghosts = templar/archon
Because i hope tis could work, does not mean it will, but u could give it a test
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On April 16 2013 04:44 Gool wrote:
What about 3-4robo mass immortal?
Why do so many people think that Immortals against Hellbats isn't in favor of the Hellbats?
Sure, the comparison of dps and health per cost/supply is rather close (Hellbats win in resources IIRC, Immortals in supply), but you need one robo (200/100) to build one Immortal every 55 seconds. You need one reactored factory (200/150) to make four hellbats in 60 seconds. Would anyone ever actually do mass immortal no sentry? It sounds incredibly weak.
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On April 16 2013 09:08 kyllinghest wrote:
My experience is that while hellbats are too good to completely forgo, so are marines. They bring speed and damage like no other terran unit. I can see how Hellbat Marauder can catch someone off guard and absolutely destroy them though, hellbats are most certainly very very strong.
I totally agree. I feel pure marauder/hellbat is a mistake. for me the current building set up is 1 rax w/reactor, 1 fact with reactor and only rax with tech labs after that for ghost and marauders.
tl;dr: At least 2 marines per cycle is mandatory IMO.
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The natural counter to this would simply be air units. But Protoss lacks a viable air unit with the DPS to handle this.
However, Archons would also be an effective counter. They don't take any bonus damage from either unit, can't be slowed by concussive shells, and their large size means that the Hellbat AOE isn't going to be that effective. Plus they do bonus damage to both Marauders and Hellbats.
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On April 16 2013 18:50 BronzeKnee wrote:
The natural counter to this would simply be air units. But Protoss lacks a viable air unit with the DPS to handle this.
However, Archons would also be an effective counter. They don't take any bonus damage from either unit, can't be slowed by concussive shells, and their large size means that the Hellbat AOE isn't going to be that effective. Plus they do bonus damage to both Marauders and Hellbats.
Immortal archon does counter this (I had the experience yesterday) but you should have ghosts out by then.
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I don't know, sounds kinda gimmicky to me. Let me start by saying the mineral to gas ratio does not support it.
At 4:1 for marauders, and 1:0 for hellbat, that's basically 8:1 ratio. Vikings is 2:1 as are Ghosts, but if you have to prioritize one, the toss can simply switch to templar/collossi play once he has the tech, so adding Vikings/Ghost in equal numbers is not the effective counter for a pure collossi or templar transition. Not to mention you cut into marauder and medivac production with these specialty units. You are better off going pure ghost/mech with armory upgrades or bio with air upgrades.
For the late game, then I'd add the second armory and start pumping from a two reactored factories, along with the air support you have been accruing with Viking/Raven.
I think the mistake terrans make is adding more rax after their 3rd/4th that they cannot support the mineral to gas, not to mention consistently outclassing the toss in micro with MMMVG. The answer is to transition to light mech, and work on the mech upgrades, with hellbat widow mines to supplement the bio. No different that TvZ. I think that's the mistake I constantly make. I will probably be adding another factory and starports before more than 6-8 rax.
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I'm high diamond. I've been going fast expand into hellbat, medivac and very heavy maurauder with a few marines and vikings mixed in. I find this unit composition is very tanky and easy to use compared with traditional MMM. It just doesn't die. It's so robust that sometimes I skip ghosts altogether. It seems so effective that I'm surprised more pros aren't using it. I'm not sure what counters it.
Edit: I mean one-rax expand instead of "fast expand".
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On April 15 2013 09:03 Henk wrote:
Wouldn't 'airtoss' completely destroy this though? I know airtoss isn't that commonly used in pvt, but vs this it might work wonders.(Just theorycrafting)
Absolutely not. If a P actually goes airtoss against a T who's going bio (and thus has stim and a bunch of barracks), you just build marines and it should be game over unless you're way behind. You need a very modest amount of scouting to see whether he's building voidrays, oracles, etc.
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As a terran you need versatile units early (MARINES), unless you are going for a pure macro/tech opening. Two gas means oracle or DT's or some robo all in play. How do you counter that if you are teching up with armories and starports? To cut marines for tech, you are sacrificing those vital units you need. As a two base timing or a multi pronged harass before the protoss builds a small but formidable deathball, I can see it. It is similar to a roach/ling/baneling all in for a ZvT. Not sure if that works quite as much ZvP but it's viable nonetheless, assuming the timing and the build order is impeccable. So in that regard it is a viable build, going for a brutal anti-ground composition sweeps the floor clean, such as Marauder/Hellbat. Just pay in mind, it is centered around a timing attack that hits the macroing protoss with such a force that he either dies or cannot recover. It's a situational play, not a viable long term plan. You only set yourself back in macro and upgrades if you do not incur the damage that was intended.
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Hellbats are really weak to Colossi and High Templars. They can't dodge storms and they take bonus damage from Colossi.
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On April 17 2013 00:14 Empirimancer wrote:
Hellbats are really weak to Colossi and High Templars. They can't dodge storms and they take bonus damage from Colossi.
They don't take bonus damage from Colossi.
They're very similar in survivability to a Marauder - which is to say, quite survivable. Their main problems are that they are slow and have low range.
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On April 17 2013 00:14 Empirimancer wrote:
Hellbats are really weak to Colossi and High Templars. They can't dodge storms and they take bonus damage from Colossi.
no, they tank a lot of damage. and they are large enough to minimize the splash for both Storm and colossus
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On April 16 2013 23:56 Blamajama wrote:
As a terran you need versatile units early (MARINES), unless you are going for a pure macro/tech opening. Two gas means oracle or DT's or some robo all in play. How do you counter that if you are teching up with armories and starports? To cut marines for tech, you are sacrificing those vital units you need. As a two base timing or a multi pronged harass before the protoss builds a small but formidable deathball, I can see it. It is similar to a roach/ling/baneling all in for a ZvT. Not sure if that works quite as much ZvP but it's viable nonetheless, assuming the timing and the build order is impeccable. So in that regard it is a viable build, going for a brutal anti-ground composition sweeps the floor clean, such as Marauder/Hellbat. Just pay in mind, it is centered around a timing attack that hits the macroing protoss with such a force that he either dies or cannot recover. It's a situational play, not a viable long term plan. You only set yourself back in macro and upgrades if you do not incur the damage that was intended.
No. U need 6 marines against oracle, 3 against msc. 9 in total. Or u build some mines. If u build some marines from the start and transition into vikings, no need for marines after the say 10. All these if/if stories dont seem to be true, because u scout and can adjust.
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On April 16 2013 23:51 The_Darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 09:03 Henk wrote:
Wouldn't 'airtoss' completely destroy this though? I know airtoss isn't that commonly used in pvt, but vs this it might work wonders.(Just theorycrafting) Absolutely not. If a P actually goes airtoss against a T who's going bio (and thus has stim and a bunch of barracks), you just build marines and it should be game over unless you're way behind. You need a very modest amount of scouting to see whether he's building voidrays, oracles, etc.
lol this is so easy on paper )
this gets raped by blink stalker colossus and archons btw if any1 wondering how to beat this . but you have to constantly poke with your stalkers and force stims and then blink away , in this way you keep medievak energy low and you dont need storm in addition to colossus to outdamage the healing of medievaks .and in big army fight just blink micro and is gg having like 6 colossus and kiting his army also works ( you kite so his army becomes a ball and every time your colossus hits they kill a entire line of marauder/hellbats )
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On April 17 2013 08:29 xsnac wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 23:51 The_Darkness wrote:On April 15 2013 09:03 Henk wrote:
Wouldn't 'airtoss' completely destroy this though? I know airtoss isn't that commonly used in pvt, but vs this it might work wonders.(Just theorycrafting) Absolutely not. If a P actually goes airtoss against a T who's going bio (and thus has stim and a bunch of barracks), you just build marines and it should be game over unless you're way behind. You need a very modest amount of scouting to see whether he's building voidrays, oracles, etc. lol this is so easy on paper ) this gets raped by blink stalker colossus and archons btw if any1 wondering how to beat this . but you have to constantly poke with your stalkers and force stims and then blink away , in this way you keep medievak energy low and you dont need storm in addition to colossus to outdamage the healing of medievaks .and in big army fight just blink micro and is gg having like 6 colossus and kiting his army also works ( you kite so his army becomes a ball and every time your colossus hits they kill a entire line of marauder/hellbats )
Your proposed conditions for victory involve having already won the game. If a Terran lets you get to 6 colossus without opposition he is dead anyway... Good luck killing it with 2-3 colossus they don't have the dps
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On April 17 2013 08:29 xsnac wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 23:51 The_Darkness wrote:On April 15 2013 09:03 Henk wrote:
Wouldn't 'airtoss' completely destroy this though? I know airtoss isn't that commonly used in pvt, but vs this it might work wonders.(Just theorycrafting) Absolutely not. If a P actually goes airtoss against a T who's going bio (and thus has stim and a bunch of barracks), you just build marines and it should be game over unless you're way behind. You need a very modest amount of scouting to see whether he's building voidrays, oracles, etc. lol this is so easy on paper ) this gets raped by blink stalker colossus and archons btw if any1 wondering how to beat this . but you have to constantly poke with your stalkers and force stims and then blink away , in this way you keep medievak energy low and you dont need storm in addition to colossus to outdamage the healing of medievaks .and in big army fight just blink micro and is gg having like 6 colossus and kiting his army also works ( you kite so his army becomes a ball and every time your colossus hits they kill a entire line of marauder/hellbats )
I use this build almost exclusively and win a lot more than I won in WOL at the same level of play so I'm guessing that this is an easier composition to manage, at the very least. If you attack around 15 minutes, you should be maxed if your macro is good for a high diamond / masters level player, which mine is. I have beaten storm builds and colossus builds rather easily with this composition. If you attack at 15 minutes P won't be maxed and if he has archons and colossus he wont' have enough of an army to with stand the assault. Note that I mix in marines. I don't go pure hellbat, maurauder, medivac, viking. I've only lost when I took really bad fights (= choke point plus storm and colossus) and was slowed down in the early game (for example, by losing probes to oracle harass, which is a function of bad scouting rather than a bad build order). I'm not saying this composition is the ultimate comp by any means but I do think it's viable. I would love to see some pros try it out. With this comp if you kill the AOE and you have some army left over it's almost impossible to die with medivacs healing and hellbats shredding any zealots that are warped in. If you have a small force of MMM and they warp in 15 zealots you probably will be pushed back . With three or four hellbats, some maurauders and four or 5 medivacs it feels likeyou can hold off an infinite amount of zealots.
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http://drop.sc/324627 vs 930 protoss
http://drop.sc/324629 vs 900 protoss
http://drop.sc/324628 vs cantcheckrightnow protoss.
http://drop.sc/324630 hellbat drop -> marine hellbat viking
Just a few random ones. It's not marauder hell bat, it's usually marine hellbat viking with medivacs. I pull scvs and all in early. Sometimes I get stim, and CS. Sometimes I FE, sometime I don't. I don't have it all down exact, I just open gas first hellions and play aggressive. My macro TvP is...ehhh so I rather play fast pace like this.
Still going up in ladder, playing some at least better protoss now. I'm at about 1200pts masters and my cheeses are still working at least 63% of the time in TvP. It's always hellbat related, or gas first hellions.
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Anyone watch Keen vs Squirtle yesterday?
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On April 16 2013 22:08 Blamajama wrote:
I don't know, sounds kinda gimmicky to me. Let me start by saying the mineral to gas ratio does not support it.
At 4:1 for marauders, and 1:0 for hellbat, that's basically 8:1 ratio. Vikings is 2:1 as are Ghosts, but if you have to prioritize one, the toss can simply switch to templar/collossi play once he has the tech, so adding Vikings/Ghost in equal numbers is not the effective counter for a pure collossi or templar transition. Not to mention you cut into marauder and medivac production with these specialty units. You are better off going pure ghost/mech with armory upgrades or bio with air upgrades.
I don't understand this - the idea is to replace marines (1:0) with hellbats (1:0) - isn't the mineral:gas ratio left unchanged? I'm sure that Medivac production, upgrades (especially if you want to upgrade hellbats), Vikings/Ghosts, and other gas uses (such as a Planetary Fortress) will use up plenty of gas in the midgame.
In lategame TvP, I honestly think Terrans should not get so many gases. They are usually left with a gas surplus.
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On April 17 2013 08:13 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 23:56 Blamajama wrote:
As a terran you need versatile units early (MARINES), unless you are going for a pure macro/tech opening. Two gas means oracle or DT's or some robo all in play. How do you counter that if you are teching up with armories and starports? To cut marines for tech, you are sacrificing those vital units you need. As a two base timing or a multi pronged harass before the protoss builds a small but formidable deathball, I can see it. It is similar to a roach/ling/baneling all in for a ZvT. Not sure if that works quite as much ZvP but it's viable nonetheless, assuming the timing and the build order is impeccable. So in that regard it is a viable build, going for a brutal anti-ground composition sweeps the floor clean, such as Marauder/Hellbat. Just pay in mind, it is centered around a timing attack that hits the macroing protoss with such a force that he either dies or cannot recover. It's a situational play, not a viable long term plan. You only set yourself back in macro and upgrades if you do not incur the damage that was intended. No. U need 6 marines against oracle, 3 against msc. 9 in total. Or u build some mines. If u build some marines from the start and transition into vikings, no need for marines after the say 10. All these if/if stories dont seem to be true, because u scout and can adjust.
So starport, armory, reactors, marauder gas, plus stim and concus, possibly servos reactor and armor/weapon upgrades, when are we expanding? 10 minutes? And if you FE, no way you hold any all-in or two gas with 9 marines.
On April 17 2013 13:26 Entirety wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 22:08 Blamajama wrote:
I don't know, sounds kinda gimmicky to me. Let me start by saying the mineral to gas ratio does not support it.
At 4:1 for marauders, and 1:0 for hellbat, that's basically 8:1 ratio. Vikings is 2:1 as are Ghosts, but if you have to prioritize one, the toss can simply switch to templar/collossi play once he has the tech, so adding Vikings/Ghost in equal numbers is not the effective counter for a pure collossi or templar transition. Not to mention you cut into marauder and medivac production with these specialty units. You are better off going pure ghost/mech with armory upgrades or bio with air upgrades. I don't understand this - the idea is to replace marines (1:0) with hellbats (1:0) - isn't the mineral:gas ratio left unchanged? I'm sure that Medivac production, upgrades (especially if you want to upgrade hellbats), Vikings/Ghosts, and other gas uses (such as a Planetary Fortress) will use up plenty of gas in the midgame. In lategame TvP, I honestly think Terrans should not get so many gases. They are usually left with a gas surplus.
It doesn't make sense not to take both gases at the third and fourth. Sure, you can delay the gas until you reach saturation on the lines. Keep in mind that as you reach that saturation, you are tapping out your main and natural at the this point. So you are never fully mining off 4-5 bases. Meanwhile the gas is just stock piling. Do we just want to let the geysers stand idly and ignore them for heavy bio builds? It's not cost efficient, because if you can't hold an expansion momentarily and the protoss pulls ahead, you can no longer support re-maxing that bio. With a tech heavy build, you can at least buy time by adding more gas intensive units before you get that mineral line back up and running.
So let's say we want the traditional MMMVG opening. I calculate 3 techs 3 reactors, on two base. One for ghost, and a 2.4:1 ratio of rines to rauders, plus a reactored port. It's almost 1800 minerals a minute, gas is over 500ish a minute on continuous production (so that's why you cut either Vikings/Ghosts while on two base). So now you are saying sub the three reactors for two reactored factories, it's a little higher than 1800, but the same cost your right. Still doesn't change the upgrade problem. You can't afford double bay upgrades for this build on two base. You armory is sitting idly. So I'd upgrade from that as well. You also want to consider servos reactor to move hellbats without medivacs. That's another vital upgrade. So basically we are going two completely separate paths in the tech ladder as has been discussed.
So Void Ray Tempest will wreck this if he is able to switch in time. But lets say he sticks with pure ground. Stalker, immortal should be beefy enough to trade off with marauder hellbat. Meanwhile he is pulling ahead in upgrades, you are not. So I repeat, if the toss makes it to the late game, and can transition to air or a scarier ground army, how do you transition when you are way behind in upgrades?
So I don't have a problem with hellbat marauder if you are looking to end the game at the 15 minute mark. After that, your screwed.
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On April 17 2013 21:29 Blamajama wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 08:13 govie wrote:On April 16 2013 23:56 Blamajama wrote:
As a terran you need versatile units early (MARINES), unless you are going for a pure macro/tech opening. Two gas means oracle or DT's or some robo all in play. How do you counter that if you are teching up with armories and starports? To cut marines for tech, you are sacrificing those vital units you need. As a two base timing or a multi pronged harass before the protoss builds a small but formidable deathball, I can see it. It is similar to a roach/ling/baneling all in for a ZvT. Not sure if that works quite as much ZvP but it's viable nonetheless, assuming the timing and the build order is impeccable. So in that regard it is a viable build, going for a brutal anti-ground composition sweeps the floor clean, such as Marauder/Hellbat. Just pay in mind, it is centered around a timing attack that hits the macroing protoss with such a force that he either dies or cannot recover. It's a situational play, not a viable long term plan. You only set yourself back in macro and upgrades if you do not incur the damage that was intended. No. U need 6 marines against oracle, 3 against msc. 9 in total. Or u build some mines. If u build some marines from the start and transition into vikings, no need for marines after the say 10. All these if/if stories dont seem to be true, because u scout and can adjust. So starport, armory, reactors, marauder gas, plus stim and concus, possibly servos reactor and armor/weapon upgrades, when are we expanding? 10 minutes? And if you FE, no way you hold any all-in or two gas with 9 marines. Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 13:26 Entirety wrote:On April 16 2013 22:08 Blamajama wrote:
I don't know, sounds kinda gimmicky to me. Let me start by saying the mineral to gas ratio does not support it.
At 4:1 for marauders, and 1:0 for hellbat, that's basically 8:1 ratio. Vikings is 2:1 as are Ghosts, but if you have to prioritize one, the toss can simply switch to templar/collossi play once he has the tech, so adding Vikings/Ghost in equal numbers is not the effective counter for a pure collossi or templar transition. Not to mention you cut into marauder and medivac production with these specialty units. You are better off going pure ghost/mech with armory upgrades or bio with air upgrades. I don't understand this - the idea is to replace marines (1:0) with hellbats (1:0) - isn't the mineral:gas ratio left unchanged? I'm sure that Medivac production, upgrades (especially if you want to upgrade hellbats), Vikings/Ghosts, and other gas uses (such as a Planetary Fortress) will use up plenty of gas in the midgame. In lategame TvP, I honestly think Terrans should not get so many gases. They are usually left with a gas surplus. It doesn't make sense not to take both gases at the third and fourth. Sure, you can delay the gas until you reach saturation on the lines. Keep in mind that as you reach that saturation, you are tapping out your main and natural at the this point. So you are never fully mining off 4-5 bases. Meanwhile the gas is just stock piling. Do we just want to let the geysers stand idly and ignore them for heavy bio builds? It's not cost efficient, because if you can't hold an expansion momentarily and the protoss pulls ahead, you can no longer support re-maxing that bio. With a tech heavy build, you can at least buy time by adding more gas intensive units before you get that mineral line back up and running. So let's say we want the tradition MMMVG opening. I calculate 3 techs 3 reactors, on two base. One for ghost, and a 2.4:1 ratio of rines to rauders, plus a reactored port. It's almost 1800 minerals a minute, gas is over 500ish a minute on continuous production (so that's why you cut either Vikings/Ghosts while on two base). So now you are saying sub the three reactors for two reactored factories, it's a little higher than 1800, but the same cost your right. Still doesn't change the upgrade problem. You can't afford double bay upgrades for this build on two base. You armory is sitting idly. So I'd upgrade from that as well. You also want to consider servos reactor to move hellbats without medivacs. That's another vital upgrade. So basically we are going two completely separate paths in the tech ladder as has been discussed. So Void Ray Tempest will wreck this if he is able to switch in time. But lets say he sticks with pure ground. Stalker, immortal should be beefy enough to trade off with marauder hellbat. Meanwhile he is pulling ahead in upgrades, you are not. So I repeat, if the toss makes it to the late game, and can transition to air or a scarier ground army, how do you transition when you are way behind in upgrades? So I don't have a problem with hellbat marauder if you are looking to end the game at the 15 minute mark. After that, your screwed.
I disagree with you rather strongly. Gas is saved from not needing combat shields in the mid game allowing for an earlier armory. Also, double upgrades is inefficient, most terrains get +1 weapons then add on a second eBay to get 2/1 and so on. The excess gas is easily spent on medievac/ Viking ghost production. Believe it or not but this is a very lean playsyle as your money, both gas and mins wil be kept low
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So you save the 100 gas from combat shield? That's the the point you strongly disagree with to justify this build? Meanwhile we are adding an extra factory so gone is the hundred gas. So much for that.
The gas is kept at a manageable number on 2-3 bases I agree. Add up the production I laid out. If you are producing Viking/Medivac, a Ghost, and two marauders, you are spending over 550 in gas a minute. So that's about 5 geysers. The last geyser pays for the upgrades. You are fine up until this point.
When the terran adds that 4th and 5th base, he doesn't need to take those gases immediately. But the problem arises when he loses those expansions. He cannot remax because he is tapped out in the main and natural, and is sitting on 3k-4K in gas. That's why it's advisable to use a more gas intensive build later in the game. LATE game. The toss player on the other hand can warp in mass templar if he is sitting on that kind of gas. It's easier to recover.
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On April 17 2013 22:25 Blamajama wrote:
So you save the 100 gas from combat shield? That's the the point you strongly disagree with to justify this build? Meanwhile we are adding an extra factory so gone is the hundred gas. So much for that.
The gas is kept at a manageable number on 2-3 bases I agree. Add up the production I laid out. If you are producing Viking/Medivac, a Ghost, and two marauders, you are spending over 550 in gas a minute. So that's about 5 geysers. The last geyser pays for the upgrades. You are fine up until this point.
When the terran adds that 4th and 5th base, he doesn't need to take those gases immediately. But the problem arises when he loses those expansions. He cannot remax because he is tapped out in the main and natural, and is sitting on 3k-4K in gas. That's why it's advisable to use a more gas intensive build later in the game. LATE game. The toss player on the other hand can warp in mass templar if he is sitting on that kind of gas. It's easier to recover.
i would agree with you, except for the fact that this style is centered on heavy harass, due to the general beefy-ness of marauder hellbat medivac in small groups, which limits the economy of the protoss and allows you (the terran) to read his strategy fairly accurately and to respond accordingly. after 6-8 medivacs, there is not much cause to be constantly producing them and vikings are a reactionary unit which are only useful against colossus/airtoss, therefore that excess gas can go to ghost/marauder production, and in adding on tech structures such as a second starport for ravens and emergency viking production. i usually have 10-12 ghosts in the lategame, this is useful for me mainly because what hurts my playstyle is sentry, archon and HT. ghosts deal with all of this.
im not saying that the unit composition is perfect, im simply implying that it is good and hard to counter effectively. storms san be EMP'd away and even when they do go off, they are generally ineffective because rauder/hellbat clumps a lot less than marines, and have a lot more HP. same thing applies to colossus.
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I still don't see how it's better off than simply going pure mech, with hellbat drops. Sure marauders are more beefy and can snipe nexi and pylons faster, but without efficient upgrading, I think the protoss can deal with a handful of marauder drops.
Anyhow I don't have a problem with the composition. I just have a problem with incorporating them that early with bio. Hellbats make more sense as a late game unit that's mixed in, especially if you had been favoring the armor upgrade from the armory as opposed to air weapons. But yeah, if you scout a greedy toss player that is overexpanding, there is a window to end the game with Hellbats there in itself. But that calls for a reactionary play, not a staple part of your base build.
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Full mech can be exploited too easily by Protoss IMO. Especially if he goes void rays.
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On April 17 2013 23:57 Ozlo wrote:
Full mech can be exploited too easily by Protoss IMO. Especially if he goes void rays.
Have u seen strelok and krass yesterday... its not that easy like just build voids and bo-win... Mech is really impressive and because of drops, terrans know everything u are doing... they just build a thor and vikings..
I am convinced after the EU qualifier and demu/razer strategy mech video that mech is darn strong and because of hellbat/Wm drops can adjust to toss strategy.
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If there was ever a clumpy unit, it's void rays, and the javelin missles eat them alive. Obviously we know about heat seekers as it is. Honestly, if it just just deathball vs deathball, it's pretty even. Voidray Tempest or immortal achron has no inherent advantage over Thor/Hellbat/Raven with either Ghost or Viking. And it includes the gas dumps that terran bio lacks. That's my composition on small maps with tight chokes.
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I see your point now that I've watched some of the streylock games. In fact, I plan to use streylocks reaper opening to transition to a fast 3 base bio play. In my opinion though, mech, while powerful, is very vulnerable and slow.
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So I have done a marauder hellbat medivac push with stim +1 bio weapons and +1 mech weapons. This has worked out quite well and hits around 11 minutes or so. I get a 15 gas and expand into marines with a widow mine or two mostly to deal with oracles. I end up getting 2 rax with tech labs and start a armory as soon as I stop making widow mines. I also add a reactor on the factory as the armory is being built. Usually I can get a third up at a decent time as well as adding on more rax or an extra factory. The push has won me a few games and the composition has help me hold 3gate robo builds, so it is relatively strong. The trickiest thing for me is to deal with MsC harassment but I usually hold off on the first tech lab until I have 6 marines or so, so it can be dealt with.
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Thanks for the build OP. I was having a lot of trouble with protoss lately, and I love the fact that with Hellbats+Marauders+Medivacs I can tank storms as opposed to having my army be gibbed when I go with more of a marine heavy army.
Depending on how the game goes, I try to slowly work my way up to skyterran. Banshee/Vikings/Ravens with hellbats as mech shields is quite terrific. However, I usually don't even get the opportunity to do that as the marauder/hellbat/medivacs do a damn good job at killing the protoss
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I am wondering if any mid/highmaster player has time to upload couple of replays for people who want to focus on exact timings and builds? VOD's are only so usefull.
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On June 23 2013 19:41 Mayhemia- wrote:
I am wondering if any mid/highmaster player has time to upload couple of replays for people who want to focus on exact timings and builds? VOD's are only so usefull.
There is VOD of Thorzain using this comp TvP in the 2nd group stage of Dreamhack. I forget who it was against but you should go look around for the dreamhack vod
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On April 17 2013 23:57 Ozlo wrote:
Full mech can be exploited too easily by Protoss IMO. Especially if he goes void rays.
agree, if toss scouts fast its very difficult to do this strat
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As a high master Protoss, I hate to tell you this, but PLAY IT.
Its so Strong, you need 3 Storms to actually kill smth in this army combo and you can open up with hellbat drops, which are non the less the most efficient way to drop any race.
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On June 23 2013 19:48 LiLSighKoh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2013 19:41 Mayhemia- wrote:
I am wondering if any mid/highmaster player has time to upload couple of replays for people who want to focus on exact timings and builds? VOD's are only so usefull. There is VOD of Thorzain using this comp TvP in the 2nd group stage of Dreamhack. I forget who it was against but you should go look around for the dreamhack vod
Been there done that, it's against Elfi, and the game is rather awkward imo.
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I've been playing this comp since around when this thread started. A few things I've noticed over around 60 ish games. Also, please note that I play more aggressively then roll into this comp (marine drop with hellions threatening, into this comp). This is certainly more robust and easier to use than the traditional mmm.
1) Vs templar first, which usually was the bane of my existence, this strat is very good. Many storms are needed to kill this army. You can perpetually delay his 3rd and just wait outside his nat for him to come fight you.
2) You DO need vikings, but you don't need as many. 4-6 is great. The maraders can help snipe the colossus, and the vikings finish them off.
3) This combo is easier to use mainly because you don't have to spam your marines around like a chicken with it's head cut off during every single engagement.
4) Add a second starport with reactor blind once your third is set up. This way, you can easily mass up some vikings to counter any airtoss shenanigans. Vikings fare decently vs void rays.
5) If they do get the dreaded colossus/storm combo, you still need to engage only in very open areas with a huge surround. If he gets to this revert to the typical drop 2 places etc, but don't engage directly.
6) The counter the this strat is ARCHONS. They MASH hellbats because of the bio tag, and hellbats and maraders don't do jack shit damage to them. It is for this reason that I am not going to start adding ghosts to my combo (previously I just kept them off 3 base, but I'd like to start getting ghosts involved).
7) Ghosts are more intuitive to use in this combo, because you already have a unit that does not stim (Hellbat). So you are only stimming marauders. Not sure exactly why, it just makes it a little easier to use the ghosts.
The bottom line is I'm having a lot more fun playing this combo, because my army is not automatically totally inferior to the protoss army. That always really bothered me and honestly almost made me leave the game.
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Those who use this build, I assume you get blue flame after the hellbat nerf. Where do you fit that in timing wise in this build?
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Hey Teuthida, Yes blue flame is needed but does not need to be prioritized. My rule of thumb is, get up the infostructure and start your third, then get blue flame. Prioritize +1/+1 and stim ahead of blue flame for sure. Regular hellbats do fine vs the smaller number of zealots you see in the early part of the mid game. You only need blue flame once the zealot counts starts to rise in the later part of the mid game -> late game.
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On July 29 2013 08:30 Iron_ wrote:
Hey Teuthida, Yes blue flame is needed but does not need to be prioritized. My rule of thumb is, get up the infostructure and start your third, then get blue flame. Prioritize +1/+1 and stim ahead of blue flame for sure. Regular hellbats do fine vs the smaller number of zealots you see in the early part of the mid game. You only need blue flame once the zealot counts starts to rise in the later part of the mid game -> late game.
Thanks! I'll give this a shot. TvP is my hardest match up so I'm hoping this helps.
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By +1/+1 do you mean infantry weapons and vehicle plating or infantry armor and weapon ups?
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I was referring to infantry. Blue flame and +1 armor both happen right about the same time for me, after infostructure is all up already. You really only NEED blue flame once he has chargelots and has over 15 or so, which doesn't happen until at least mid game, maybe mid-late game.
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Also, just FYI, my infostructure in mid game is:
4 tech lab rax
1 tech lab factory (for blue flame)
1 reactor factory
1 reactor starport
Then into late game I end up with
8 tech lab rax (I am going to start adding a ghost academy so these are great for ghosts too)
1 tech lab factory
2 reactor factory
2 reactor starport
That info structure is more than you can support if your macro is perfect, but most people are not named Innovation and miss half a round here and there. The extra buildings also help a lot if you trade heavily while maxed and need to pop out a bunch of units fast.
If I do max and end up playing with fire into the late late game, I try to get up another 4-6 rax and 1-2 factory so that I can remax much faster. My goal with this strat though, is to stop his third from ever getting up, so most of my games end before 20 minutes or so.
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Do you really want that many hellbats in your army or do you drop them a lot? And in general how do you deny the third with this comp...
Also don't you want some marine production?
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Yes you need a high Hellbat production. One of the main reasons for this, is that they are on the front line with a lower range, so every time you trade you lose more hellbats than marauders. You must be able to replace the hellbats and keep a good hellbat count or zealots will just a move you.
I build zero marines after the opening. This saves combat shield (100/100), and the hellbats are there for the zealots. The only reason for marines at all in mmm is for the zealots anyway. Why make a small pack of units that die instantly to a storm?
Depending on your opening, you either deny the third with brute force, or by dropping the main and sniping it with marauders. I've come to really enjoy 4 marauder drops. They kill buildings quite fast and the toss must respond to it. Also, since it's only 4 units they drop a lot faster than the 8 marines so they can get to work quicker, giving the toss a bit less time to respond.
Depending on the map, you can also simply run in with marauders, snipe the third, and run. If my early harass puts me ahead I literally just camp his nat with my army in a nice concave.
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Thanks man, this seems like the way to go.
I'm assuming the higher marauder count will also make this build WAY better versus those silly blink all-ins
And of course is very nice versus templars/collosi turtles because of high hp on all units
One last thing: if you scout/are harassed by stargate play how do you deal? Just widow mines or also add in marine production?
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Just played a game vs a protoss doing a standard reaper expand with a build I put together in about 5 minutes and TvP is no longer retarded (although I have reservations about late late game)
Basically skip combat shields, swap the factory that made the reactor for the starport into the original reactor for marines. Get 1 e-bay and an early armory (skipping cs basically pays for this), upgrade +1 infantry weapons and +1 vehicle armor = sucess. Your front line is beefy, your ranged units deal lots of damage and once the zealot wall is down its only stalkers left.
Since colossus are the best way to deal with hellbats the armor bonus for vikings comes in handy since protoss will likely keep a high colossus count through the entire game it also helps with not having to wonder (to a degree) if he's remaxing on zealot archon or colossus stalker.
With some polishing I'm sure it would be easy to figure out what should be prioritized next as far as upgrades go or just go straight for ghost asap.
In any case, im convinced that making marines is just not worth it past the 7-8 minute mark. a hellbat will deal more damage than 2 marines in almost every battle since they actually live for more than 2 seconds and don't spent the remaining second for the battle running back from the mob of zealots chasing them ready to chop em to pieces.
Another great bonus of this style is the attention span required during engagements, less kiting reuired during small engagements allowing for easier macro or more control over emps / viking assisting.
edit: also makes transitioning into sky terrans easier as the high colossus count forces you into 2x starport and you'll have all the armor upgrades ready with +3 on the way.
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Yeah I played a game where I adapted demu's reaper expand build to this, and it worked out well. I like that BO since it gives you an early engy to defend against oracles / DTs. But I think I will go for marauder / hellbat past my initial marine count now.
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@ Tomska, you always always need marines off the start, just not after 7-8 minutes. This is how you deal with early stargate play. Make sure your opening has enough marines to deal with oracles. Once you see oracles, get an ebay up if you don't have one yet, and get a turret in each line, then continue your build. If you don't take decent damage, this will bode better for you than a standard 1 gate FE type of play.
Yes it's better vs Turtles for sure. If he turtles on 2 base, I recommend just camping hit natural in a nice concave. He will likely try some prism shenanigans, but don't give up your position. If he moves out, stim and mash. On 2 base he should not yet have mass storms, just a smaller amount, which you can handle.
@Doko, you gave me a nice idea with prioritizing hellbat armor over infantry armor. I like it and I will try it. In fact, I'll stay on 1 ebay maybe until I hit +1, then add the second.
NOTE: Just an FYI to the guys reading this thread, *mass* storms still decimate this army. Still can't fight those at all. I recommend aiming to keep him on 2 base or bust. I am going to be adding ghosts now, and I'm hoping that in the late game, I can emp most of his templars and be OK, unlike MMM where you needed to hit *every single templar.... TWICE*, in order to survive a battle. Since we can eat 3-4 storms with this, maybe we don't need to be pro level with our ghosts to get a decent trade.
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I think the main problem here is mobility. Hellbats are much slower than marines (with stimpack) and this way they slow down your army a lot. One of the strongest sides of bio play vs protoss is how quick your army can move through the map, snipe a base and pull back, you can't do stuff like that with hellbats. At this point you might as well as go full mech with hellbats, tanks and ghosts.
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On July 31 2013 07:30 KingAlphard wrote:
I think the main problem here is mobility. Hellbats are much slower than marines (with stimpack) and this way they slow down your army a lot. One of the strongest sides of bio play vs protoss is how quick your army can move through the map, snipe a base and pull back, you can't do stuff like that with hellbats. At this point you might as well as go full mech with hellbats, tanks and ghosts.
How about loading the hellbats into the medivacs? When hellbats were more popular all the high level players were just carrying them around in medivacs anyway and dropping them where they were needed.
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On July 31 2013 06:43 Iron_ wrote:
@ Tomska, you always always need marines off the start, just not after 7-8 minutes. This is how you deal with early stargate play. Make sure your opening has enough marines to deal with oracles. Once you see oracles, get an ebay up if you don't have one yet, and get a turret in each line, then continue your build. If you don't take decent damage, this will bode better for you than a standard 1 gate FE type of play.
Yes it's better vs Turtles for sure. If he turtles on 2 base, I recommend just camping hit natural in a nice concave. He will likely try some prism shenanigans, but don't give up your position. If he moves out, stim and mash. On 2 base he should not yet have mass storms, just a smaller amount, which you can handle.
@Doko, you gave me a nice idea with prioritizing hellbat armor over infantry armor. I like it and I will try it. In fact, I'll stay on 1 ebay maybe until I hit +1, then add the second.
NOTE: Just an FYI to the guys reading this thread, *mass* storms still decimate this army. Still can't fight those at all. I recommend aiming to keep him on 2 base or bust. I am going to be adding ghosts now, and I'm hoping that in the late game, I can emp most of his templars and be OK, unlike MMM where you needed to hit *every single templar.... TWICE*, in order to survive a battle. Since we can eat 3-4 storms with this, maybe we don't need to be pro level with our ghosts to get a decent trade.
mass storms will always decimate any terran non full-mech army without ghosts
I try and use drops to kind of get an idea of his templar timing. I find if its colossi first, which the majority of pvt seems to be today because the possibilities of widow mine drops really punish twilight before robo, then if its not 1 colossi no range then a mass scv pull without ghosts at about 170ish supply hits really hard and a good engagement and storm dodging the couple he has should win, however if he plays greedy and rushes to templar then have to incorporate ghosts.
not sure about timings to do against templar first, but i feel these builds rely on lots of zealots therefore if you put the viking money into ghost academy as taking third and have a few emps the bluebats will roll his army
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Its definately a very strong way to play.
However you have to be careful - this build mainly counters those double upgrade heavy gateway plays.
Strong tech play - aka storm / colossus will still deal with this similarly well - though you might have a slightly better time against it. I'd say its around equal.
You are at a disadvantage becasue your slower (please don't go on about loading and dropping hellbats for standard army movement, that takes too much effort / apm). Also a lot less DPS from your army against everything but zealots. Your shorter range units will block each other and prevent them from getting into firing range.
Thats made up by having fatter units that take strongly reduced damage from storm / colossus - and a better strat against zealots.
I feel like going a lot of robo with immortal / colossus (2 stalker = 1 immortal price), or doing a heavy stargate build would counter this well
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TL;DR: Marines are a pretty good unit... but nothing compared to Hellbats, even after the nerf.
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The mix is quite good, you only need to add some Vikings and/or Ghosts but mostly remember the "Gas" problem, because you need many Factories, and you can't spam them early, while the Rax are pure Mineral, so there is a timing where you are not really able to produce a lot of Hellbats.
Also it can be hard to get enough Vikings if he for some reason mass some Voids or Oracles and you didn't scout propperly =/
I was using this build even before HotS, on WoL with BlueFlameHellions and worked fine
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Bumping up this old thread, as I was wondering if this style was viable with the new patch ?
Anyone got replays ? I wanted to try it but various cheeses forced me into building many more marines than I wanted...
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ForGG goes for MMM + Hellbats vs Protoss. Check out his replays for example from Dreamhack Winter :-)
Good luck!
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I use this style often when playing Terran now, for all the reasons previously stated. I freaking adore it, as playing vs HT protoss in the late game was slaying me. The meaty hellbats are such a help.
However when I'm playing this from the Protoss perspective of the matchup I'm noticing lots of terrans having a hard time defending warp prism harass, especially if I ever secure my third. Without the marine anti-air dps in your reinforcements it's so easy to just retreat with your warp prism. I've also found dropping two immortals and warping in zealots nearly unkillable for the T without retreating his whole army. The only time this happened to me as Terran I got completely shit on, but my opponent was a class above me to begin with, so I don't know what to make of that.
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Bomber used this in his last tournmanet, should check his BO . Also ForGG has been doing this for a long time, nothing new TBH, but seems to be getting popular since its less micro intensive
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On December 14 2013 01:02 never_Nal wrote:Bomber used this in his last tournmanet, should check his BO . Also ForGG has been doing this for a long time, nothing new TBH, but seems to be getting popular since its less micro intensive
where can I find the replay/ build order?
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On April 15 2013 04:29 Ozlo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 03:00 Deepflow wrote:
Ive been thinking about this and while it sounds like it might be stronger in a straight up fight you have a serious upgrade problem. Especially if you want to get ship famage also. To be constantly upping every relevant thing you also need 3 armories! Which is 450/300 you cant spend on units even without considering upgrade costs.
Im still gonna try this when i get home tomorrow though. hellbats are so good you dont really have to upgrade them. and they are beefy as fuck so they make good meatshields
Possibly silly question. But why do you need three armouries?
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Question here. When doing this style, how do you manage your resources when they all of a sudden go mass archon? Do you try to kill them before it gets to this point or do you make less hellbats and more ghosts?
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On April 15 2013 04:47 Genome852 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 08:43 BoggieMan wrote:
i had ok success with hellbat-marine in the hots beta.
i don't think you need marauders unless he goes like pure stalker collusi.
ghost and vikings are obviously needed... if you are gonna go marauder hellbat medivac ONLY then he can just make 6 collusi. A reason for hellbats replacing marines in late game is that they don't get gibbed by colossus and storm splash, while still being able to tank and kill zealots very effectively. One of the reasons why marines are used despite how quickly they drop to splash is because you needed them for zealots, which otherwise just chop up marauders. Hellbats can take over that role. Different upgrade paths is a pretty big deal though. And like marines, hellbats only cost minerals so it won't affect viking / ghost production (besides gas spent on factories etc.) Not sure why OP would go from hellbat marauder medivac midgame into MMM though, I would think it would be the other way around, starting MMM and slowly mixing hellbats in to replace marines. Hellbats are super good and I see them getting nerfed once they start being used more (like old blue flame).
They aren't microable like marines. That's the entire issue. Slows down your entire army movement/mobility, meaning you can't force a fight on your own terms, which is a typical Terran advantage. If you can't take a fight, you better be prepared to loss all your helbats. Marines aren't the same story. They synergize with marauders because they are the same speed.
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On December 14 2013 04:53 WiggyB wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 04:29 Ozlo wrote:On April 15 2013 03:00 Deepflow wrote:
Ive been thinking about this and while it sounds like it might be stronger in a straight up fight you have a serious upgrade problem. Especially if you want to get ship famage also. To be constantly upping every relevant thing you also need 3 armories! Which is 450/300 you cant spend on units even without considering upgrade costs.
Im still gonna try this when i get home tomorrow though. hellbats are so good you dont really have to upgrade them. and they are beefy as fuck so they make good meatshields Possibly silly question. But why do you need three armouries?
Quite obvious he wasn't aware of the armory upgrade changes.
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even with the changes the problems of this build still apply
warp prism harass
stargate play
4 upgrades needed
drops are arguably stronger vs probes
hellbats are much slower than marines
i think theres a reason this never got mainstream back in thr day. marines are arguably the most versatile unit in the game and theres a reason so many units need to hardcounter them.
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EPT
