[D] Marauder hellbat medivac in TvP - Page 4

On April 15 2013 09:03 Henk wrote:
Wouldn't 'airtoss' completely destroy this though? I know airtoss isn't that commonly used in pvt, but vs this it might work wonders.(Just theorycrafting)

On April 17 2013 00:14 Empirimancer wrote:
Hellbats are really weak to Colossi and High Templars. They can't dodge storms and they take bonus damage from Colossi.

On April 17 2013 00:14 Empirimancer wrote:
Hellbats are really weak to Colossi and High Templars. They can't dodge storms and they take bonus damage from Colossi.

On April 16 2013 23:56 Blamajama wrote:
As a terran you need versatile units early (MARINES), unless you are going for a pure macro/tech opening. Two gas means oracle or DT's or some robo all in play. How do you counter that if you are teching up with armories and starports? To cut marines for tech, you are sacrificing those vital units you need. As a two base timing or a multi pronged harass before the protoss builds a small but formidable deathball, I can see it. It is similar to a roach/ling/baneling all in for a ZvT. Not sure if that works quite as much ZvP but it's viable nonetheless, assuming the timing and the build order is impeccable. So in that regard it is a viable build, going for a brutal anti-ground composition sweeps the floor clean, such as Marauder/Hellbat. Just pay in mind, it is centered around a timing attack that hits the macroing protoss with such a force that he either dies or cannot recover. It's a situational play, not a viable long term plan. You only set yourself back in macro and upgrades if you do not incur the damage that was intended.

On April 16 2013 23:51 The_Darkness wrote:


Absolutely not. If a P actually goes airtoss against a T who's going bio (and thus has stim and a bunch of barracks), you just build marines and it should be game over unless you're way behind. You need a very modest amount of scouting to see whether he's building voidrays, oracles, etc.

On April 17 2013 08:29 xsnac wrote:



lol this is so easy on paper )

this gets raped by blink stalker colossus and archons btw if any1 wondering how to beat this . but you have to constantly poke with your stalkers and force stims and then blink away , in this way you keep medievak energy low and you dont need storm in addition to colossus to outdamage the healing of medievaks .and in big army fight just blink micro and is gg having like 6 colossus and kiting his army also works ( you kite so his army becomes a ball and every time your colossus hits they kill a entire line of marauder/hellbats )

On April 17 2013 08:29 xsnac wrote:



lol this is so easy on paper )

this gets raped by blink stalker colossus and archons btw if any1 wondering how to beat this . but you have to constantly poke with your stalkers and force stims and then blink away , in this way you keep medievak energy low and you dont need storm in addition to colossus to outdamage the healing of medievaks .and in big army fight just blink micro and is gg having like 6 colossus and kiting his army also works ( you kite so his army becomes a ball and every time your colossus hits they kill a entire line of marauder/hellbats )

On April 16 2013 22:08 Blamajama wrote:
I don't know, sounds kinda gimmicky to me. Let me start by saying the mineral to gas ratio does not support it.

At 4:1 for marauders, and 1:0 for hellbat, that's basically 8:1 ratio. Vikings is 2:1 as are Ghosts, but if you have to prioritize one, the toss can simply switch to templar/collossi play once he has the tech, so adding Vikings/Ghost in equal numbers is not the effective counter for a pure collossi or templar transition. Not to mention you cut into marauder and medivac production with these specialty units. You are better off going pure ghost/mech with armory upgrades or bio with air upgrades.

On April 17 2013 08:13 govie wrote:


No. U need 6 marines against oracle, 3 against msc. 9 in total. Or u build some mines. If u build some marines from the start and transition into vikings, no need for marines after the say 10. All these if/if stories dont seem to be true, because u scout and can adjust.

On April 17 2013 13:26 Entirety wrote:


I don't understand this - the idea is to replace marines (1:0) with hellbats (1:0) - isn't the mineral:gas ratio left unchanged? I'm sure that Medivac production, upgrades (especially if you want to upgrade hellbats), Vikings/Ghosts, and other gas uses (such as a Planetary Fortress) will use up plenty of gas in the midgame.

In lategame TvP, I honestly think Terrans should not get so many gases. They are usually left with a gas surplus.

On April 17 2013 21:29 Blamajama wrote:


So starport, armory, reactors, marauder gas, plus stim and concus, possibly servos reactor and armor/weapon upgrades, when are we expanding? 10 minutes? And if you FE, no way you hold any all-in or two gas with 9 marines.



It doesn't make sense not to take both gases at the third and fourth. Sure, you can delay the gas until you reach saturation on the lines. Keep in mind that as you reach that saturation, you are tapping out your main and natural at the this point. So you are never fully mining off 4-5 bases. Meanwhile the gas is just stock piling. Do we just want to let the geysers stand idly and ignore them for heavy bio builds? It's not cost efficient, because if you can't hold an expansion momentarily and the protoss pulls ahead, you can no longer support re-maxing that bio. With a tech heavy build, you can at least buy time by adding more gas intensive units before you get that mineral line back up and running.

So let's say we want the tradition MMMVG opening. I calculate 3 techs 3 reactors, on two base. One for ghost, and a 2.4:1 ratio of rines to rauders, plus a reactored port. It's almost 1800 minerals a minute, gas is over 500ish a minute on continuous production (so that's why you cut either Vikings/Ghosts while on two base). So now you are saying sub the three reactors for two reactored factories, it's a little higher than 1800, but the same cost your right. Still doesn't change the upgrade problem. You can't afford double bay upgrades for this build on two base. You armory is sitting idly. So I'd upgrade from that as well. You also want to consider servos reactor to move hellbats without medivacs. That's another vital upgrade. So basically we are going two completely separate paths in the tech ladder as has been discussed.

So Void Ray Tempest will wreck this if he is able to switch in time. But lets say he sticks with pure ground. Stalker, immortal should be beefy enough to trade off with marauder hellbat. Meanwhile he is pulling ahead in upgrades, you are not. So I repeat, if the toss makes it to the late game, and can transition to air or a scarier ground army, how do you transition when you are way behind in upgrades?

So I don't have a problem with hellbat marauder if you are looking to end the game at the 15 minute mark. After that, your screwed.

On April 17 2013 22:25 Blamajama wrote:
So you save the 100 gas from combat shield? That's the the point you strongly disagree with to justify this build? Meanwhile we are adding an extra factory so gone is the hundred gas. So much for that.

The gas is kept at a manageable number on 2-3 bases I agree. Add up the production I laid out. If you are producing Viking/Medivac, a Ghost, and two marauders, you are spending over 550 in gas a minute. So that's about 5 geysers. The last geyser pays for the upgrades. You are fine up until this point.

When the terran adds that 4th and 5th base, he doesn't need to take those gases immediately. But the problem arises when he loses those expansions. He cannot remax because he is tapped out in the main and natural, and is sitting on 3k-4K in gas. That's why it's advisable to use a more gas intensive build later in the game. LATE game. The toss player on the other hand can warp in mass templar if he is sitting on that kind of gas. It's easier to recover.