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[D] Marauder hellbat medivac in TvP - Page 4

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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ErrantKnight
Profile Joined November 2012
Switzerland186 Posts
April 16 2013 11:03 GMT
#61
Oracle
"Quantity is quality by itself"
Blamajama
Profile Joined September 2010
156 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-16 14:40:01
April 16 2013 13:08 GMT
#62
I don't know, sounds kinda gimmicky to me. Let me start by saying the mineral to gas ratio does not support it.

At 4:1 for marauders, and 1:0 for hellbat, that's basically 8:1 ratio. Vikings is 2:1 as are Ghosts, but if you have to prioritize one, the toss can simply switch to templar/collossi play once he has the tech, so adding Vikings/Ghost in equal numbers is not the effective counter for a pure collossi or templar transition. Not to mention you cut into marauder and medivac production with these specialty units. You are better off going pure ghost/mech with armory upgrades or bio with air upgrades.

For the late game, then I'd add the second armory and start pumping from a two reactored factories, along with the air support you have been accruing with Viking/Raven.

I think the mistake terrans make is adding more rax after their 3rd/4th that they cannot support the mineral to gas, not to mention consistently outclassing the toss in micro with MMMVG. The answer is to transition to light mech, and work on the mech upgrades, with hellbat widow mines to supplement the bio. No different that TvZ. I think that's the mistake I constantly make. I will probably be adding another factory and starports before more than 6-8 rax.
The_Darkness
Profile Joined December 2011
United States910 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-16 15:06:26
April 16 2013 14:49 GMT
#63
I'm high diamond. I've been going fast expand into hellbat, medivac and very heavy maurauder with a few marines and vikings mixed in. I find this unit composition is very tanky and easy to use compared with traditional MMM. It just doesn't die. It's so robust that sometimes I skip ghosts altogether. It seems so effective that I'm surprised more pros aren't using it. I'm not sure what counters it.

Edit: I mean one-rax expand instead of "fast expand".
To be is to be the value of a bound variable.
The_Darkness
Profile Joined December 2011
United States910 Posts
April 16 2013 14:51 GMT
#64
On April 15 2013 09:03 Henk wrote:
Wouldn't 'airtoss' completely destroy this though? I know airtoss isn't that commonly used in pvt, but vs this it might work wonders.(Just theorycrafting)


Absolutely not. If a P actually goes airtoss against a T who's going bio (and thus has stim and a bunch of barracks), you just build marines and it should be game over unless you're way behind. You need a very modest amount of scouting to see whether he's building voidrays, oracles, etc.
To be is to be the value of a bound variable.
Blamajama
Profile Joined September 2010
156 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-16 15:04:12
April 16 2013 14:56 GMT
#65
As a terran you need versatile units early (MARINES), unless you are going for a pure macro/tech opening. Two gas means oracle or DT's or some robo all in play. How do you counter that if you are teching up with armories and starports? To cut marines for tech, you are sacrificing those vital units you need. As a two base timing or a multi pronged harass before the protoss builds a small but formidable deathball, I can see it. It is similar to a roach/ling/baneling all in for a ZvT. Not sure if that works quite as much ZvP but it's viable nonetheless, assuming the timing and the build order is impeccable. So in that regard it is a viable build, going for a brutal anti-ground composition sweeps the floor clean, such as Marauder/Hellbat. Just pay in mind, it is centered around a timing attack that hits the macroing protoss with such a force that he either dies or cannot recover. It's a situational play, not a viable long term plan. You only set yourself back in macro and upgrades if you do not incur the damage that was intended.
Empirimancer
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada1024 Posts
April 16 2013 15:14 GMT
#66
Hellbats are really weak to Colossi and High Templars. They can't dodge storms and they take bonus damage from Colossi.

Treehead
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
999 Posts
April 16 2013 15:50 GMT
#67
On April 17 2013 00:14 Empirimancer wrote:
Hellbats are really weak to Colossi and High Templars. They can't dodge storms and they take bonus damage from Colossi.



They don't take bonus damage from Colossi.

They're very similar in survivability to a Marauder - which is to say, quite survivable. Their main problems are that they are slow and have low range.
Ozlo
Profile Joined March 2013
United States30 Posts
April 16 2013 18:41 GMT
#68
On April 17 2013 00:14 Empirimancer wrote:
Hellbats are really weak to Colossi and High Templars. They can't dodge storms and they take bonus damage from Colossi.



no, they tank a lot of damage. and they are large enough to minimize the splash for both Storm and colossus
govie
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
9334 Posts
April 16 2013 23:13 GMT
#69
On April 16 2013 23:56 Blamajama wrote:
As a terran you need versatile units early (MARINES), unless you are going for a pure macro/tech opening. Two gas means oracle or DT's or some robo all in play. How do you counter that if you are teching up with armories and starports? To cut marines for tech, you are sacrificing those vital units you need. As a two base timing or a multi pronged harass before the protoss builds a small but formidable deathball, I can see it. It is similar to a roach/ling/baneling all in for a ZvT. Not sure if that works quite as much ZvP but it's viable nonetheless, assuming the timing and the build order is impeccable. So in that regard it is a viable build, going for a brutal anti-ground composition sweeps the floor clean, such as Marauder/Hellbat. Just pay in mind, it is centered around a timing attack that hits the macroing protoss with such a force that he either dies or cannot recover. It's a situational play, not a viable long term plan. You only set yourself back in macro and upgrades if you do not incur the damage that was intended.


No. U need 6 marines against oracle, 3 against msc. 9 in total. Or u build some mines. If u build some marines from the start and transition into vikings, no need for marines after the say 10. All these if/if stories dont seem to be true, because u scout and can adjust.
The two NBA teams in states with legal weed are called the Nuggets and the Blazers...
xsnac
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Barbados1365 Posts
April 16 2013 23:29 GMT
#70
On April 16 2013 23:51 The_Darkness wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 15 2013 09:03 Henk wrote:
Wouldn't 'airtoss' completely destroy this though? I know airtoss isn't that commonly used in pvt, but vs this it might work wonders.(Just theorycrafting)


Absolutely not. If a P actually goes airtoss against a T who's going bio (and thus has stim and a bunch of barracks), you just build marines and it should be game over unless you're way behind. You need a very modest amount of scouting to see whether he's building voidrays, oracles, etc.



lol this is so easy on paper )

this gets raped by blink stalker colossus and archons btw if any1 wondering how to beat this . but you have to constantly poke with your stalkers and force stims and then blink away , in this way you keep medievak energy low and you dont need storm in addition to colossus to outdamage the healing of medievaks .and in big army fight just blink micro and is gg having like 6 colossus and kiting his army also works ( you kite so his army becomes a ball and every time your colossus hits they kill a entire line of marauder/hellbats )
1/4 \pi \epsilon_0
Ozlo
Profile Joined March 2013
United States30 Posts
April 16 2013 23:59 GMT
#71
On April 17 2013 08:29 xsnac wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 16 2013 23:51 The_Darkness wrote:
On April 15 2013 09:03 Henk wrote:
Wouldn't 'airtoss' completely destroy this though? I know airtoss isn't that commonly used in pvt, but vs this it might work wonders.(Just theorycrafting)


Absolutely not. If a P actually goes airtoss against a T who's going bio (and thus has stim and a bunch of barracks), you just build marines and it should be game over unless you're way behind. You need a very modest amount of scouting to see whether he's building voidrays, oracles, etc.



lol this is so easy on paper )

this gets raped by blink stalker colossus and archons btw if any1 wondering how to beat this . but you have to constantly poke with your stalkers and force stims and then blink away , in this way you keep medievak energy low and you dont need storm in addition to colossus to outdamage the healing of medievaks .and in big army fight just blink micro and is gg having like 6 colossus and kiting his army also works ( you kite so his army becomes a ball and every time your colossus hits they kill a entire line of marauder/hellbats )


Your proposed conditions for victory involve having already won the game. If a Terran lets you get to 6 colossus without opposition he is dead anyway... Good luck killing it with 2-3 colossus they don't have the dps
The_Darkness
Profile Joined December 2011
United States910 Posts
April 17 2013 02:32 GMT
#72
On April 17 2013 08:29 xsnac wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 16 2013 23:51 The_Darkness wrote:
On April 15 2013 09:03 Henk wrote:
Wouldn't 'airtoss' completely destroy this though? I know airtoss isn't that commonly used in pvt, but vs this it might work wonders.(Just theorycrafting)


Absolutely not. If a P actually goes airtoss against a T who's going bio (and thus has stim and a bunch of barracks), you just build marines and it should be game over unless you're way behind. You need a very modest amount of scouting to see whether he's building voidrays, oracles, etc.



lol this is so easy on paper )

this gets raped by blink stalker colossus and archons btw if any1 wondering how to beat this . but you have to constantly poke with your stalkers and force stims and then blink away , in this way you keep medievak energy low and you dont need storm in addition to colossus to outdamage the healing of medievaks .and in big army fight just blink micro and is gg having like 6 colossus and kiting his army also works ( you kite so his army becomes a ball and every time your colossus hits they kill a entire line of marauder/hellbats )


I use this build almost exclusively and win a lot more than I won in WOL at the same level of play so I'm guessing that this is an easier composition to manage, at the very least. If you attack around 15 minutes, you should be maxed if your macro is good for a high diamond / masters level player, which mine is. I have beaten storm builds and colossus builds rather easily with this composition. If you attack at 15 minutes P won't be maxed and if he has archons and colossus he wont' have enough of an army to with stand the assault. Note that I mix in marines. I don't go pure hellbat, maurauder, medivac, viking. I've only lost when I took really bad fights (= choke point plus storm and colossus) and was slowed down in the early game (for example, by losing probes to oracle harass, which is a function of bad scouting rather than a bad build order). I'm not saying this composition is the ultimate comp by any means but I do think it's viable. I would love to see some pros try it out. With this comp if you kill the AOE and you have some army left over it's almost impossible to die with medivacs healing and hellbats shredding any zealots that are warped in. If you have a small force of MMM and they warp in 15 zealots you probably will be pushed back . With three or four hellbats, some maurauders and four or 5 medivacs it feels likeyou can hold off an infinite amount of zealots.
To be is to be the value of a bound variable.
iAmJeffReY
Profile Joined August 2010
United States4262 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-17 02:58:07
April 17 2013 02:57 GMT
#73
http://drop.sc/324627 vs 930 protoss
http://drop.sc/324629 vs 900 protoss
http://drop.sc/324628 vs cantcheckrightnow protoss.
http://drop.sc/324630 hellbat drop -> marine hellbat viking

Just a few random ones. It's not marauder hell bat, it's usually marine hellbat viking with medivacs. I pull scvs and all in early. Sometimes I get stim, and CS. Sometimes I FE, sometime I don't. I don't have it all down exact, I just open gas first hellions and play aggressive. My macro TvP is...ehhh so I rather play fast pace like this.

Still going up in ladder, playing some at least better protoss now. I'm at about 1200pts masters and my cheeses are still working at least 63% of the time in TvP. It's always hellbat related, or gas first hellions.
Unbiased biased terran abuser Jeffrey. Sorry for the rage, friend!
padfoota
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Taiwan1571 Posts
April 17 2013 03:25 GMT
#74
Anyone watch Keen vs Squirtle yesterday?
Stop procrastinating
Entirety
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
1423 Posts
April 17 2013 04:26 GMT
#75
On April 16 2013 22:08 Blamajama wrote:
I don't know, sounds kinda gimmicky to me. Let me start by saying the mineral to gas ratio does not support it.

At 4:1 for marauders, and 1:0 for hellbat, that's basically 8:1 ratio. Vikings is 2:1 as are Ghosts, but if you have to prioritize one, the toss can simply switch to templar/collossi play once he has the tech, so adding Vikings/Ghost in equal numbers is not the effective counter for a pure collossi or templar transition. Not to mention you cut into marauder and medivac production with these specialty units. You are better off going pure ghost/mech with armory upgrades or bio with air upgrades.


I don't understand this - the idea is to replace marines (1:0) with hellbats (1:0) - isn't the mineral:gas ratio left unchanged? I'm sure that Medivac production, upgrades (especially if you want to upgrade hellbats), Vikings/Ghosts, and other gas uses (such as a Planetary Fortress) will use up plenty of gas in the midgame.

In lategame TvP, I honestly think Terrans should not get so many gases. They are usually left with a gas surplus.
IMMvp (정종현) | Fan Club: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=211431
Blamajama
Profile Joined September 2010
156 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-17 13:12:58
April 17 2013 12:29 GMT
#76
On April 17 2013 08:13 govie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 16 2013 23:56 Blamajama wrote:
As a terran you need versatile units early (MARINES), unless you are going for a pure macro/tech opening. Two gas means oracle or DT's or some robo all in play. How do you counter that if you are teching up with armories and starports? To cut marines for tech, you are sacrificing those vital units you need. As a two base timing or a multi pronged harass before the protoss builds a small but formidable deathball, I can see it. It is similar to a roach/ling/baneling all in for a ZvT. Not sure if that works quite as much ZvP but it's viable nonetheless, assuming the timing and the build order is impeccable. So in that regard it is a viable build, going for a brutal anti-ground composition sweeps the floor clean, such as Marauder/Hellbat. Just pay in mind, it is centered around a timing attack that hits the macroing protoss with such a force that he either dies or cannot recover. It's a situational play, not a viable long term plan. You only set yourself back in macro and upgrades if you do not incur the damage that was intended.


No. U need 6 marines against oracle, 3 against msc. 9 in total. Or u build some mines. If u build some marines from the start and transition into vikings, no need for marines after the say 10. All these if/if stories dont seem to be true, because u scout and can adjust.


So starport, armory, reactors, marauder gas, plus stim and concus, possibly servos reactor and armor/weapon upgrades, when are we expanding? 10 minutes? And if you FE, no way you hold any all-in or two gas with 9 marines.

On April 17 2013 13:26 Entirety wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 16 2013 22:08 Blamajama wrote:
I don't know, sounds kinda gimmicky to me. Let me start by saying the mineral to gas ratio does not support it.

At 4:1 for marauders, and 1:0 for hellbat, that's basically 8:1 ratio. Vikings is 2:1 as are Ghosts, but if you have to prioritize one, the toss can simply switch to templar/collossi play once he has the tech, so adding Vikings/Ghost in equal numbers is not the effective counter for a pure collossi or templar transition. Not to mention you cut into marauder and medivac production with these specialty units. You are better off going pure ghost/mech with armory upgrades or bio with air upgrades.


I don't understand this - the idea is to replace marines (1:0) with hellbats (1:0) - isn't the mineral:gas ratio left unchanged? I'm sure that Medivac production, upgrades (especially if you want to upgrade hellbats), Vikings/Ghosts, and other gas uses (such as a Planetary Fortress) will use up plenty of gas in the midgame.

In lategame TvP, I honestly think Terrans should not get so many gases. They are usually left with a gas surplus.


It doesn't make sense not to take both gases at the third and fourth. Sure, you can delay the gas until you reach saturation on the lines. Keep in mind that as you reach that saturation, you are tapping out your main and natural at the this point. So you are never fully mining off 4-5 bases. Meanwhile the gas is just stock piling. Do we just want to let the geysers stand idly and ignore them for heavy bio builds? It's not cost efficient, because if you can't hold an expansion momentarily and the protoss pulls ahead, you can no longer support re-maxing that bio. With a tech heavy build, you can at least buy time by adding more gas intensive units before you get that mineral line back up and running.

So let's say we want the traditional MMMVG opening. I calculate 3 techs 3 reactors, on two base. One for ghost, and a 2.4:1 ratio of rines to rauders, plus a reactored port. It's almost 1800 minerals a minute, gas is over 500ish a minute on continuous production (so that's why you cut either Vikings/Ghosts while on two base). So now you are saying sub the three reactors for two reactored factories, it's a little higher than 1800, but the same cost your right. Still doesn't change the upgrade problem. You can't afford double bay upgrades for this build on two base. You armory is sitting idly. So I'd upgrade from that as well. You also want to consider servos reactor to move hellbats without medivacs. That's another vital upgrade. So basically we are going two completely separate paths in the tech ladder as has been discussed.

So Void Ray Tempest will wreck this if he is able to switch in time. But lets say he sticks with pure ground. Stalker, immortal should be beefy enough to trade off with marauder hellbat. Meanwhile he is pulling ahead in upgrades, you are not. So I repeat, if the toss makes it to the late game, and can transition to air or a scarier ground army, how do you transition when you are way behind in upgrades?

So I don't have a problem with hellbat marauder if you are looking to end the game at the 15 minute mark. After that, your screwed.
Ozlo
Profile Joined March 2013
United States30 Posts
April 17 2013 13:03 GMT
#77
On April 17 2013 21:29 Blamajama wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 17 2013 08:13 govie wrote:
On April 16 2013 23:56 Blamajama wrote:
As a terran you need versatile units early (MARINES), unless you are going for a pure macro/tech opening. Two gas means oracle or DT's or some robo all in play. How do you counter that if you are teching up with armories and starports? To cut marines for tech, you are sacrificing those vital units you need. As a two base timing or a multi pronged harass before the protoss builds a small but formidable deathball, I can see it. It is similar to a roach/ling/baneling all in for a ZvT. Not sure if that works quite as much ZvP but it's viable nonetheless, assuming the timing and the build order is impeccable. So in that regard it is a viable build, going for a brutal anti-ground composition sweeps the floor clean, such as Marauder/Hellbat. Just pay in mind, it is centered around a timing attack that hits the macroing protoss with such a force that he either dies or cannot recover. It's a situational play, not a viable long term plan. You only set yourself back in macro and upgrades if you do not incur the damage that was intended.


No. U need 6 marines against oracle, 3 against msc. 9 in total. Or u build some mines. If u build some marines from the start and transition into vikings, no need for marines after the say 10. All these if/if stories dont seem to be true, because u scout and can adjust.


So starport, armory, reactors, marauder gas, plus stim and concus, possibly servos reactor and armor/weapon upgrades, when are we expanding? 10 minutes? And if you FE, no way you hold any all-in or two gas with 9 marines.

Show nested quote +
On April 17 2013 13:26 Entirety wrote:
On April 16 2013 22:08 Blamajama wrote:
I don't know, sounds kinda gimmicky to me. Let me start by saying the mineral to gas ratio does not support it.

At 4:1 for marauders, and 1:0 for hellbat, that's basically 8:1 ratio. Vikings is 2:1 as are Ghosts, but if you have to prioritize one, the toss can simply switch to templar/collossi play once he has the tech, so adding Vikings/Ghost in equal numbers is not the effective counter for a pure collossi or templar transition. Not to mention you cut into marauder and medivac production with these specialty units. You are better off going pure ghost/mech with armory upgrades or bio with air upgrades.


I don't understand this - the idea is to replace marines (1:0) with hellbats (1:0) - isn't the mineral:gas ratio left unchanged? I'm sure that Medivac production, upgrades (especially if you want to upgrade hellbats), Vikings/Ghosts, and other gas uses (such as a Planetary Fortress) will use up plenty of gas in the midgame.

In lategame TvP, I honestly think Terrans should not get so many gases. They are usually left with a gas surplus.


It doesn't make sense not to take both gases at the third and fourth. Sure, you can delay the gas until you reach saturation on the lines. Keep in mind that as you reach that saturation, you are tapping out your main and natural at the this point. So you are never fully mining off 4-5 bases. Meanwhile the gas is just stock piling. Do we just want to let the geysers stand idly and ignore them for heavy bio builds? It's not cost efficient, because if you can't hold an expansion momentarily and the protoss pulls ahead, you can no longer support re-maxing that bio. With a tech heavy build, you can at least buy time by adding more gas intensive units before you get that mineral line back up and running.

So let's say we want the tradition MMMVG opening. I calculate 3 techs 3 reactors, on two base. One for ghost, and a 2.4:1 ratio of rines to rauders, plus a reactored port. It's almost 1800 minerals a minute, gas is over 500ish a minute on continuous production (so that's why you cut either Vikings/Ghosts while on two base). So now you are saying sub the three reactors for two reactored factories, it's a little higher than 1800, but the same cost your right. Still doesn't change the upgrade problem. You can't afford double bay upgrades for this build on two base. You armory is sitting idly. So I'd upgrade from that as well. You also want to consider servos reactor to move hellbats without medivacs. That's another vital upgrade. So basically we are going two completely separate paths in the tech ladder as has been discussed.

So Void Ray Tempest will wreck this if he is able to switch in time. But lets say he sticks with pure ground. Stalker, immortal should be beefy enough to trade off with marauder hellbat. Meanwhile he is pulling ahead in upgrades, you are not. So I repeat, if the toss makes it to the late game, and can transition to air or a scarier ground army, how do you transition when you are way behind in upgrades?

So I don't have a problem with hellbat marauder if you are looking to end the game at the 15 minute mark. After that, your screwed.


I disagree with you rather strongly. Gas is saved from not needing combat shields in the mid game allowing for an earlier armory. Also, double upgrades is inefficient, most terrains get +1 weapons then add on a second eBay to get 2/1 and so on. The excess gas is easily spent on medievac/ Viking ghost production. Believe it or not but this is a very lean playsyle as your money, both gas and mins wil be kept low
Blamajama
Profile Joined September 2010
156 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-17 14:13:19
April 17 2013 13:25 GMT
#78
So you save the 100 gas from combat shield? That's the the point you strongly disagree with to justify this build? Meanwhile we are adding an extra factory so gone is the hundred gas. So much for that.

The gas is kept at a manageable number on 2-3 bases I agree. Add up the production I laid out. If you are producing Viking/Medivac, a Ghost, and two marauders, you are spending over 550 in gas a minute. So that's about 5 geysers. The last geyser pays for the upgrades. You are fine up until this point.

When the terran adds that 4th and 5th base, he doesn't need to take those gases immediately. But the problem arises when he loses those expansions. He cannot remax because he is tapped out in the main and natural, and is sitting on 3k-4K in gas. That's why it's advisable to use a more gas intensive build later in the game. LATE game. The toss player on the other hand can warp in mass templar if he is sitting on that kind of gas. It's easier to recover.
Ozlo
Profile Joined March 2013
United States30 Posts
April 17 2013 14:27 GMT
#79
On April 17 2013 22:25 Blamajama wrote:
So you save the 100 gas from combat shield? That's the the point you strongly disagree with to justify this build? Meanwhile we are adding an extra factory so gone is the hundred gas. So much for that.

The gas is kept at a manageable number on 2-3 bases I agree. Add up the production I laid out. If you are producing Viking/Medivac, a Ghost, and two marauders, you are spending over 550 in gas a minute. So that's about 5 geysers. The last geyser pays for the upgrades. You are fine up until this point.

When the terran adds that 4th and 5th base, he doesn't need to take those gases immediately. But the problem arises when he loses those expansions. He cannot remax because he is tapped out in the main and natural, and is sitting on 3k-4K in gas. That's why it's advisable to use a more gas intensive build later in the game. LATE game. The toss player on the other hand can warp in mass templar if he is sitting on that kind of gas. It's easier to recover.


i would agree with you, except for the fact that this style is centered on heavy harass, due to the general beefy-ness of marauder hellbat medivac in small groups, which limits the economy of the protoss and allows you (the terran) to read his strategy fairly accurately and to respond accordingly. after 6-8 medivacs, there is not much cause to be constantly producing them and vikings are a reactionary unit which are only useful against colossus/airtoss, therefore that excess gas can go to ghost/marauder production, and in adding on tech structures such as a second starport for ravens and emergency viking production. i usually have 10-12 ghosts in the lategame, this is useful for me mainly because what hurts my playstyle is sentry, archon and HT. ghosts deal with all of this.

im not saying that the unit composition is perfect, im simply implying that it is good and hard to counter effectively. storms san be EMP'd away and even when they do go off, they are generally ineffective because rauder/hellbat clumps a lot less than marines, and have a lot more HP. same thing applies to colossus.
Blamajama
Profile Joined September 2010
156 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-17 14:53:44
April 17 2013 14:53 GMT
#80
I still don't see how it's better off than simply going pure mech, with hellbat drops. Sure marauders are more beefy and can snipe nexi and pylons faster, but without efficient upgrading, I think the protoss can deal with a handful of marauder drops.

Anyhow I don't have a problem with the composition. I just have a problem with incorporating them that early with bio. Hellbats make more sense as a late game unit that's mixed in, especially if you had been favoring the armor upgrade from the armory as opposed to air weapons. But yeah, if you scout a greedy toss player that is overexpanding, there is a window to end the game with Hellbats there in itself. But that calls for a reactionary play, not a staple part of your base build.
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