Have u seen strelok and krass yesterday... its not that easy like just build voids and bo-win... Mech is really impressive and because of drops, terrans know everything u are doing... they just build a thor and vikings..

I am convinced after the EU qualifier and demu/razer strategy mech video that mech is darn strong and because of hellbat/Wm drops can adjust to toss strategy.

Blamajama

156 Posts

April 17 2013 15:17 GMT

#83

If there was ever a clumpy unit, it's void rays, and the javelin missles eat them alive. Obviously we know about heat seekers as it is. Honestly, if it just just deathball vs deathball, it's pretty even. Voidray Tempest or immortal achron has no inherent advantage over Thor/Hellbat/Raven with either Ghost or Viking. And it includes the gas dumps that terran bio lacks. That's my composition on small maps with tight chokes.

Ozlo

United States30 Posts

April 19 2013 16:58 GMT

#84

I see your point now that I've watched some of the streylock games. In fact, I plan to use streylocks reaper opening to transition to a fast 3 base bio play. In my opinion though, mech, while powerful, is very vulnerable and slow.

Sircoolguy

United States81 Posts

April 19 2013 17:44 GMT

#85

So I have done a marauder hellbat medivac push with stim +1 bio weapons and +1 mech weapons. This has worked out quite well and hits around 11 minutes or so. I get a 15 gas and expand into marines with a widow mine or two mostly to deal with oracles. I end up getting 2 rax with tech labs and start a armory as soon as I stop making widow mines. I also add a reactor on the factory as the armory is being built. Usually I can get a third up at a decent time as well as adding on more rax or an extra factory. The push has won me a few games and the composition has help me hold 3gate robo builds, so it is relatively strong. The trickiest thing for me is to deal with MsC harassment but I usually hold off on the first tech lab until I have 6 marines or so, so it can be dealt with.

Hellbat

223 Posts

June 23 2013 08:25 GMT

#86

Thanks for the build OP. I was having a lot of trouble with protoss lately, and I love the fact that with Hellbats+Marauders+Medivacs I can tank storms as opposed to having my army be gibbed when I go with more of a marine heavy army.

Depending on how the game goes, I try to slowly work my way up to skyterran. Banshee/Vikings/Ravens with hellbats as mech shields is quite terrific. However, I usually don't even get the opportunity to do that as the marauder/hellbat/medivacs do a damn good job at killing the protoss

Mayhemia-

Finland58 Posts

June 23 2013 10:41 GMT

#87

I am wondering if any mid/highmaster player has time to upload couple of replays for people who want to focus on exact timings and builds? VOD's are only so usefull.

LiLSighKoh

United States588 Posts

June 23 2013 10:48 GMT

#88

On June 23 2013 19:41 Mayhemia- wrote:
I am wondering if any mid/highmaster player has time to upload couple of replays for people who want to focus on exact timings and builds? VOD's are only so usefull.

There is VOD of Thorzain using this comp TvP in the 2nd group stage of Dreamhack. I forget who it was against but you should go look around for the dreamhack vod

bypLy

757 Posts

June 23 2013 11:28 GMT

#89

On April 17 2013 23:57 Ozlo wrote:
Full mech can be exploited too easily by Protoss IMO. Especially if he goes void rays.

agree, if toss scouts fast its very difficult to do this strat

SalvationII

Germany25 Posts

June 23 2013 12:03 GMT

#90

As a high master Protoss, I hate to tell you this, but PLAY IT.
Its so Strong, you need 3 Storms to actually kill smth in this army combo and you can open up with hellbat drops, which are non the less the most efficient way to drop any race.

Mayhemia-

Finland58 Posts

June 23 2013 16:41 GMT

#91

On June 23 2013 19:48 LiLSighKoh wrote:

Show nested quote +

There is VOD of Thorzain using this comp TvP in the 2nd group stage of Dreamhack. I forget who it was against but you should go look around for the dreamhack vod

Been there done that, it's against Elfi, and the game is rather awkward imo.

Iron_

United States389 Posts

July 28 2013 21:40 GMT

#92

I've been playing this comp since around when this thread started. A few things I've noticed over around 60 ish games. Also, please note that I play more aggressively then roll into this comp (marine drop with hellions threatening, into this comp). This is certainly more robust and easier to use than the traditional mmm.

1) Vs templar first, which usually was the bane of my existence, this strat is very good. Many storms are needed to kill this army. You can perpetually delay his 3rd and just wait outside his nat for him to come fight you.

2) You DO need vikings, but you don't need as many. 4-6 is great. The maraders can help snipe the colossus, and the vikings finish them off.

3) This combo is easier to use mainly because you don't have to spam your marines around like a chicken with it's head cut off during every single engagement.

4) Add a second starport with reactor blind once your third is set up. This way, you can easily mass up some vikings to counter any airtoss shenanigans. Vikings fare decently vs void rays.

5) If they do get the dreaded colossus/storm combo, you still need to engage only in very open areas with a huge surround. If he gets to this revert to the typical drop 2 places etc, but don't engage directly.

6) The counter the this strat is ARCHONS. They MASH hellbats because of the bio tag, and hellbats and maraders don't do jack shit damage to them. It is for this reason that I am not going to start adding ghosts to my combo (previously I just kept them off 3 base, but I'd like to start getting ghosts involved).

7) Ghosts are more intuitive to use in this combo, because you already have a unit that does not stim (Hellbat). So you are only stimming marauders. Not sure exactly why, it just makes it a little easier to use the ghosts.

The bottom line is I'm having a lot more fun playing this combo, because my army is not automatically totally inferior to the protoss army. That always really bothered me and honestly almost made me leave the game.

teuthida

United States104 Posts

July 28 2013 23:05 GMT

#93

Those who use this build, I assume you get blue flame after the hellbat nerf. Where do you fit that in timing wise in this build?

Iron_

United States389 Posts

July 28 2013 23:30 GMT

#94

Hey Teuthida, Yes blue flame is needed but does not need to be prioritized. My rule of thumb is, get up the infostructure and start your third, then get blue flame. Prioritize +1/+1 and stim ahead of blue flame for sure. Regular hellbats do fine vs the smaller number of zealots you see in the early part of the mid game. You only need blue flame once the zealot counts starts to rise in the later part of the mid game -> late game.

teuthida

United States104 Posts

July 28 2013 23:42 GMT

#95

On July 29 2013 08:30 Iron_ wrote:
Hey Teuthida, Yes blue flame is needed but does not need to be prioritized. My rule of thumb is, get up the infostructure and start your third, then get blue flame. Prioritize +1/+1 and stim ahead of blue flame for sure. Regular hellbats do fine vs the smaller number of zealots you see in the early part of the mid game. You only need blue flame once the zealot counts starts to rise in the later part of the mid game -> late game.

Thanks! I'll give this a shot. TvP is my hardest match up so I'm hoping this helps.

tomsKa

United States39 Posts

July 29 2013 00:41 GMT

#96

By +1/+1 do you mean infantry weapons and vehicle plating or infantry armor and weapon ups?

Iron_

United States389 Posts

July 29 2013 02:31 GMT

#97

I was referring to infantry. Blue flame and +1 armor both happen right about the same time for me, after infostructure is all up already. You really only NEED blue flame once he has chargelots and has over 15 or so, which doesn't happen until at least mid game, maybe mid-late game.

Iron_

United States389 Posts

July 29 2013 02:40 GMT

#98

Also, just FYI, my infostructure in mid game is:

4 tech lab rax
1 tech lab factory (for blue flame)
1 reactor factory
1 reactor starport

Then into late game I end up with

8 tech lab rax (I am going to start adding a ghost academy so these are great for ghosts too)
1 tech lab factory
2 reactor factory
2 reactor starport

That info structure is more than you can support if your macro is perfect, but most people are not named Innovation and miss half a round here and there. The extra buildings also help a lot if you trade heavily while maxed and need to pop out a bunch of units fast.

If I do max and end up playing with fire into the late late game, I try to get up another 4-6 rax and 1-2 factory so that I can remax much faster. My goal with this strat though, is to stop his third from ever getting up, so most of my games end before 20 minutes or so.

tomsKa

United States39 Posts

July 29 2013 02:45 GMT

#99

Do you really want that many hellbats in your army or do you drop them a lot? And in general how do you deny the third with this comp...

Also don't you want some marine production?

Iron_

United States389 Posts

July 29 2013 23:44 GMT

#100

Yes you need a high Hellbat production. One of the main reasons for this, is that they are on the front line with a lower range, so every time you trade you lose more hellbats than marauders. You must be able to replace the hellbats and keep a good hellbat count or zealots will just a move you.

I build zero marines after the opening. This saves combat shield (100/100), and the hellbats are there for the zealots. The only reason for marines at all in mmm is for the zealots anyway. Why make a small pack of units that die instantly to a storm?

Depending on your opening, you either deny the third with brute force, or by dropping the main and sniping it with marauders. I've come to really enjoy 4 marauder drops. They kill buildings quite fast and the toss must respond to it. Also, since it's only 4 units they drop a lot faster than the 8 marines so they can get to work quicker, giving the toss a bit less time to respond.

Depending on the map, you can also simply run in with marauders, snipe the third, and run. If my early harass puts me ahead I literally just camp his nat with my army in a nice concave.