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United States4883 Posts
On August 22 2013 15:00 Ryusei wrote:
How can you even win afainst zerg? What do you do to win? I tried everything, all-in, early pressure, macro and nothing works. I have standard 50% w/l ratio vs toss and terran, but i cant win a single game vs zerg. Yes, not a single game. my w/l ratio vs zerg is 0. Either im missing out on some magical secret or zerg is op vs toss. I mean wtf, heres an example: i KNOW that zerg is sitting on 2 bases, i KNOW that he will push with roaches, im totally ready with 4 cannons, 2 sentries ans stargate, yet zerg manages to win. What. The. Fuck. Macro vs zerg is even worse, zerg masses roach/hydra, im trying to make counters, then, out of nowhere 20 mutalisks pop and kill me. Race is absurdly strong vs toss to the point that ill just start leaving all my zvp games soon enough.
A replay would help more than anything. As it is, I can't pinpoint your problem based on just a rage paragraph. More than one replay is preferable too.
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Russian Federation21 Posts
On August 22 2013 15:26 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2013 15:00 Ryusei wrote:
How can you even win afainst zerg? What do you do to win? I tried everything, all-in, early pressure, macro and nothing works. I have standard 50% w/l ratio vs toss and terran, but i cant win a single game vs zerg. Yes, not a single game. my w/l ratio vs zerg is 0. Either im missing out on some magical secret or zerg is op vs toss. I mean wtf, heres an example: i KNOW that zerg is sitting on 2 bases, i KNOW that he will push with roaches, im totally ready with 4 cannons, 2 sentries ans stargate, yet zerg manages to win. What. The. Fuck. Macro vs zerg is even worse, zerg masses roach/hydra, im trying to make counters, then, out of nowhere 20 mutalisks pop and kill me. Race is absurdly strong vs toss to the point that ill just start leaving all my zvp games soon enough. A replay would help more than anything. As it is, I can't pinpoint your problem based on just a rage paragraph. More than one replay is preferable too.
Right now im sitting in the office lol. Ill post whole replay pack this evening, and if i wont be banned ill pm the same pack to you
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On August 21 2013 00:50 DinoMight wrote:
Guys, need some PvZ help.
I have been opening FFE into Phoenix. Usually this baits out roach/hydra pushes. My robo comes down after my second Phoenix and by the time the push comes I've got Colossus or enough forcefields to get a Colossus out and I'm fine.
However, there is a style of Z that totally counters my build seemingly. Zerg basically only makes lings and puts 2 spores in every base. Then bam before I can do anything there's 10 Ultras out. Or 40 muta. Or whatever he wants. If I identify that the Zerg is going for this heavy speedling opening into really fast tech/upgrades.. what's the best timing to hit to punish that and what's the best unit comp to be able to deal swift damage?
i don't like to rush colossus after stargate since it's very predictable and gives you basically no options in terms of punishing timings other than before vipers or a lot of corruptors are out. basically any early commitment to colossus is too vulnerable to mid-game armies backed by infestors for my tastes.
+ Show Spoiler [my style] +personally, after ffe into stargate, i usually follow up with +1 attack 4 gate @ ~9:00 to pressure their third base and force them to make roaches and slow lings on defense. this attack hits with 5 zealots, 4 phoenix, mothership core, leaving 1-2 sentries at your natural to defend counters. continue to warp in zealots as necessary, but no more than 2 rounds of zealots, generally. any more than that and you're delaying your third expansion / tech by too much and you could just straight die to a roach hydra crack back.
i like this style since it generally "flows" well - use your phoenix to deny overlord scouting, making it harder to deny roaming probes, as well as scout out their response while possibly trying to get some queen or drone kills. it just simply punishes a lot of common responses to phoenix, such as too many spores, delayed roach warren, or even 1/1 lings into fast hive, by putting a lot of pressure on zerg's third base before they can even have roach speed, alot of hydra with range/speed, or upgrades of their own.
i recommend this attack on maps where it's easier to get proxy pylons that are not only near their third base but also fairly far away from their natural such as belshir vestige or akilon wastes. i wouldn't recommend this type of attack on derelict watcher, for example.
follow up with twilight for +2 first and foremost. you can get robo if you like blink stalker/colossus or you can charge and templar archives so you can get out storm and archons.
more common opening after FFE seen at high levels is a 7:00 third nexus off the back of 1 zealot, 2-3 stalkers, and a MSC attack. this is a cool timing against 3 hatch opening since they can't have speed out to even deal with your attack, much less punish your fast expansion. i like this build a lot better than stargate into robo into a third since zerg simply cannot aggressively punish your expansion with most lair tech.
usually we see a heavy stargate play to follow up, something like 3 stargate void rays or 2 stargate phoenix. void rays are better if you want to just mass up like 10 and hit before infestors or too many queens are out, while phoenix are better if you want to kill tons of drones and just like being more active on the map.
there is also the possibility to do something like +2 attack 8 gate blink stalkers allin, or like +2 chargelot/archon/immortal if you just like your gateway units and want to go for the throat. this follow up is really strong if your opponent commits too much to trying to break your third and takes too many losses. i'd go for this follow-up if you scout no infestation pit, and lots of hydra production.
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United States4883 Posts
On August 22 2013 15:43 megapants wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 00:50 DinoMight wrote:
Guys, need some PvZ help.
I have been opening FFE into Phoenix. Usually this baits out roach/hydra pushes. My robo comes down after my second Phoenix and by the time the push comes I've got Colossus or enough forcefields to get a Colossus out and I'm fine.
However, there is a style of Z that totally counters my build seemingly. Zerg basically only makes lings and puts 2 spores in every base. Then bam before I can do anything there's 10 Ultras out. Or 40 muta. Or whatever he wants. If I identify that the Zerg is going for this heavy speedling opening into really fast tech/upgrades.. what's the best timing to hit to punish that and what's the best unit comp to be able to deal swift damage? i don't like to rush colossus after stargate since it's very predictable and gives you basically no options in terms of punishing timings other than before vipers or a lot of corruptors are out. basically any early commitment to colossus is too vulnerable to mid-game armies backed by infestors for my tastes. + Show Spoiler [my style] +personally, after ffe into stargate, i usually follow up with +1 attack 4 gate @ ~9:00 to pressure their third base and force them to make roaches and slow lings on defense. this attack hits with 5 zealots, 4 phoenix, mothership core, leaving 1-2 sentries at your natural to defend counters. continue to warp in zealots as necessary, but no more than 2 rounds of zealots, generally. any more than that and you're delaying your third expansion / tech by too much and you could just straight die to a roach hydra crack back.
i like this style since it generally "flows" well - use your phoenix to deny overlord scouting, making it harder to deny roaming probes, as well as scout out their response while possibly trying to get some queen or drone kills. it just simply punishes a lot of common responses to phoenix, such as too many spores, delayed roach warren, or even 1/1 lings into fast hive, by putting a lot of pressure on zerg's third base before they can even have roach speed, alot of hydra with range/speed, or upgrades of their own.
i recommend this attack on maps where it's easier to get proxy pylons that are not only near their third base but also fairly far away from their natural such as belshir vestige or akilon wastes. i wouldn't recommend this type of attack on derelict watcher, for example.
follow up with twilight for +2 first and foremost. you can get robo if you like blink stalker/colossus or you can charge and templar archives so you can get out storm and archons.
more common opening after FFE seen at high levels is a 7:00 third nexus off the back of 1 zealot, 2-3 stalkers, and a MSC attack. this is a cool timing against 3 hatch opening since they can't have speed out to even deal with your attack, much less punish your fast expansion. i like this build a lot better than stargate into robo into a third since zerg simply cannot aggressively punish your expansion with most lair tech. usually we see a heavy stargate play to follow up, something like 3 stargate void rays or 2 stargate phoenix. void rays are better if you want to just mass up like 10 and hit before infestors or too many queens are out, while phoenix are better if you want to kill tons of drones and just like being more active on the map. there is also the possibility to do something like +2 attack 8 gate blink stalkers allin, or like +2 chargelot/archon/immortal if you just like your gateway units and want to go for the throat. this follow up is really strong if your opponent commits too much to trying to break your third and takes too many losses. i'd go for this follow-up if you scout no infestation pit, and lots of hydra production.
This is one way of dealing with it: attack before your opponent can secure several bases and get hivetech up. The macro alternative however....
To deal with a hydra-less heavy-ling style, simply techswitch to templar asap and start pumping immortals. Chargelot/archon/immortal is going to rape almost anything on the ground, and your initial phoenixes should buy you enough time to get more out if he tries to switch to mutas (plus you'll have storm and archons). It's basically impossible to take a 4th against this style, so just be patient and max out on as many archons/immortals as possible, using a warp prism and low gateway numbers to try to keep him pinned back or from taking additional bases too quickly.
Hope this helps! 
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Italy12246 Posts
Few notes on these previous posts:
a) You can't take a 7ish minute third off a phoenix opening, but you can do it off a one phoenix into void ray build. The jobs of the phoenix are 1) scouting 2) picking off a couple of overlords on the map 3) making the zerg think you are doing a phoenix heavy opener.
b) 4gate +1 phoenix is a nice build but it should hit at 8:00 to 8:30 at the latest. As with every zealot timing, it can be hard countered if the zerg knows it's coming, so keep that in mind if you play a BoX or the same guy twice on ladder.
c) Like it or not, in many situations colossi are just mandatory.
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I haven't played a lot the last season or two so I am out of the loop a bit as to what macro styles are considered standard these days vs each race. I was just wondering if anyone could advise what styles are commonly used for macro games these days?
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Okay, I'm high bronze league, hi everyone.
A few days ago I made a new build that seems to work very well (stemming from a failed cannon rush), I pretty much FFE into oracle harass then into 4gate Immortal Voidray Stalker(sometimes colossus instead of immortals, for marine heavy comps and such), I've won almost all of my games this way.
However it's not great vs Zerg as the Queen normally shuts down the Oracle pretty fast, I was wondering if warp prism harass would be better against Zerg? Also any other hints and tips would be useful, thankyou. (Oh and I get blink and extra cannons if I smell mutas.)
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Italy12246 Posts
Warp prism harassment openings are definitely viable, there's an overview of them in the big PvZ WoL guide that still pretty much applies today.
That said, with how the HotS metagame works if you want to harass the Zerg in the early game, i would recommend you learn the standard FFE>Stargate>Phoenix build.
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Thankyou, I hadn't thought of phoenix, I tried them when I just started playing and I couldn't use them at all so I vowed never to touch them again, maybe I'm good enough now.
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Italy12246 Posts
Phoenixes are a pretty tough unit to use in terms of multitasking, but they are really fun and useful, so yeah go for it
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The starcraft community is so nice, cookies for all* *throws cookies everywhere*
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make sure you don't overmake them, and also make sure you have a nice wall yo don't have to worry about
a lot of times zergs will panic and make units and when they realize they can't kill your phoenixes with them, they'll a-move and if you have a gap in your wall or a weak point you'll just die :3
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On August 22 2013 15:00 Ryusei wrote:
How can you even win afainst zerg? What do you do to win? I tried everything, all-in, early pressure, macro and nothing works. I have standard 50% w/l ratio vs toss and terran, but i cant win a single game vs zerg. Yes, not a single game. my w/l ratio vs zerg is 0. Either im missing out on some magical secret or zerg is op vs toss. I mean wtf, heres an example: i KNOW that zerg is sitting on 2 bases, i KNOW that he will push with roaches, im totally ready with 4 cannons, 2 sentries ans stargate, yet zerg manages to win. What. The. Fuck. Macro vs zerg is even worse, zerg masses roach/hydra, im trying to make counters, then, out of nowhere 20 mutalisks pop and kill me. Race is absurdly strong vs toss to the point that ill just start leaving all my zvp games soon enough.
Lol.
Obviously Zerg does not have 100% win rate against Protoss. So the first step for you is to admit to yourself that you're doing something very wrong and you need to fix your game.
I would watch some pro PvZ games. Pick 1 macro build, and keep doing it until you can win with it. If I were you I would practice forge fast expand into Phoenix. That's a pretty standard opening these days.
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On August 22 2013 17:41 Teoita wrote:
Few notes on these previous posts:
a) You can't take a 7ish minute third off a phoenix opening, but you can do it off a one phoenix into void ray build. The jobs of the phoenix are 1) scouting 2) picking off a couple of overlords on the map 3) making the zerg think you are doing a phoenix heavy opener.
Myusgsik does something like that though. According to Artosis's notes, he goes for a third before 7 minutes, adds 2 gateways or something, and then goes into double/triple stargate and gets a massive amount of phoenixes. I have no idea how this build works and I haven't seen myungsik play yet, but it might be worth checking out since Artosis seemed so hyped about it.
http://scdojo.tumblr.com/post/55563370168/my-initial-notes-on-myungsiks-awesome-pvz-build
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United States4883 Posts
On August 23 2013 10:21 vhapter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2013 17:41 Teoita wrote:
Few notes on these previous posts:
a) You can't take a 7ish minute third off a phoenix opening, but you can do it off a one phoenix into void ray build. The jobs of the phoenix are 1) scouting 2) picking off a couple of overlords on the map 3) making the zerg think you are doing a phoenix heavy opener.
Myusgsik does something like that though. According to Artosis's notes, he goes for a third before 7 minutes, adds 2 gateways or something, and then goes into double/triple stargate and gets a massive amount of phoenixes. I have no idea how this build works and I haven't seen myungsik play yet, but it might be worth checking out since Artosis seemed so hyped about it. http://scdojo.tumblr.com/post/55563370168/my-initial-notes-on-myungsiks-awesome-pvz-build
Sounds like the Jaedong vs. Oz game from WCS AM that Day9 did a daily about. In that one, Oz goes for a mega fast 3rd on Akilon into a really funky mass 2-gate phoenix delayed warpgate push @12:00. More than anything, I think this is just a meta play; you take a fast 3rd expecting zerg to double expand and skip out on units, then you bust the front down with a ton of units suddenly.
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Italy12246 Posts
Yeah that build is INSANELY fragile and now that i think of it, i've NEVER seen artosis win with it lol. I really wouldn't recommend it for ladder play.
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if you tried that on ladder every zerg would just ling all-in you and end the game right there. People want fast wins so a crazy build like that isn't as great on the ladder as opposed to a televised game or something where the players are much more nervous to be ballsy and stuff.
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On August 22 2013 17:41 Teoita wrote:
Few notes on these previous posts:
a) You can't take a 7ish minute third off a phoenix opening, but you can do it off a one phoenix into void ray build. The jobs of the phoenix are 1) scouting 2) picking off a couple of overlords on the map 3) making the zerg think you are doing a phoenix heavy opener.
b) 4gate +1 phoenix is a nice build but it should hit at 8:00 to 8:30 at the latest. As with every zealot timing, it can be hard countered if the zerg knows it's coming, so keep that in mind if you play a BoX or the same guy twice on ladder.
c) Like it or not, in many situations colossi are just mandatory.
the 7 minute third base forgoes a stargate until after the nexus is up, sorry if that wasn't clear. the big draw of the build isn't really the super fast third base but the harassment with stalkers before ling speed or roach warren is finished - you force zerg to build a ton of zerglings just to stop you from getting free kills with your stalkers + msc. i pretty much only see this build on whirlwind, akilon wastes and sometimes on belshir vestige.
edit: some examples of this build from proleague
+ Show Spoiler [bisu vs roro - whirlwind (5/12)] +
+ Show Spoiler [rain vs hydra - akilon (5/21)] +
i agree that +1 zealot pressure can be tough to always guarantee damage. i personally open forge in my main which helps to keep the fast upgrade hidden a little bit easier, but it's true that stardard roach timing can deflect this pretty easily. spell usage with your phoenix and mothership core can really turn the tides against a roach and slow zergling defense, though.
lastly you're right that colossus are the go-to response to many things in this matchup but i just don't like colossus straight after phoenix. i personally would rather go blink stalker first if i plan to go colossus in the mid-game.
are there any decent stargate into blink stalker builds? i've never tried this style before and i don't remember really seeing it used much, if at all.
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PvZ: How do you hold fast speedling agresssion into baneling bust with a 1 gate expo on maps with a wide natural ramp (ie akilon)?
My main issues with this are having a wall off in time and scouting.
As for the wall off, I feel like the natural response for zergs to seeing a 1 gate expo is to get a ton of speedlings and instantly move them across the map to try to poke off at your wall before your cannon finishes (timing at about 5:15ish I think). Do you need to chrono out more gateway units to defend until then?
As for scouting though, it's fairly safe (I think) to assume they're going to mass speedlings if you see a 14/14 opener considering their expo/droning are going to be really delayed, but how do you figure out if there's going to be a baneling follow-up once the zerg has full map control with their zerglings?
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Italy12246 Posts
If they get gas before 6 minutes (ie, off 14/14 opening instead of going 15 pool 15 hatch into reactive gas) they were already planning to do that build beforehand, expecting you to gateway fe. Pros don't bother accounting for that build because it's extremely rare, but if you want to be safe against it you could either:
a) cut probes a bit to get your wall up faster
b) probe scout and expand more slowly (with a couple of sentries and zealots or whatever) if you see him going speedlings.
The baneling followup could probably be scouted with a mothership core i suppose. Tbh it hits after warpgate is done so unless you are playing insanely greedy you should have enough sentries in time to defend, i'd need to watch a replay to say anything more specific.
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EPT
