EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 160
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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bretfart
114 Posts
On August 16 2013 01:30 NVRLand wrote: I'm having a lot of problem versus mech guys. I've read alot about it, tried to watch pro vods of PvMech (But I'm having a hard time finding any recent, been looking for Strelok games) but I'm just clueless. I try to expand like a maniac but it gets shut down pretty hard. I have the upgrade advantage but gets rolled anyway. I try to force engagements when he's unsieged. I go for mass immortals and I always do runbys with chargelots but nothing works. I'm currently 0-9 versus mech during the last weeks and it's so frustrating because it's about to get buffed and I can't even win with the current supposedly weak mech... I'll add my last three replays: #1 http://drop.sc/354350 #2 http://drop.sc/354349 #3 http://drop.sc/354351 In some games I try to transition into air but haven't been successful with that. At all. Would appreciate any comments regarding my replays! Game vs TheOddChap Main mistakes I saw: In your first engagement at your natural you pulled all your probes which was unnecessary. Your 1st immortal was about to pop out. With this immortal and another warpin round you would have stopped this push without losing your nexus. That put you behind quite a lot. After that your saturation was bad. You only had 13 probes on minerals at your natural for a long time and you’ve banked a ton of gas which you didn’t use. I disagree with your decision to attack his natural. Your Warpprism harass was great, but your engagement at his wall wasn’t. your zealots weren’t in front of your army and it was all clumped up so that the siege tanks had maximum effect on your army. That’s what you never wanna do against mech. You were in a bad spot there. 5 Siege tanks basically killed 1 immortal, 5 stalkers, 2 sentries, 13 zealots and 1 colossus (without range). You killed a lot of scvs, but you need those robo units against mech and replacing them takes so much time and you only had 1 robo. Zealots with bad armor upgrades just get evaporated by hellbats. You should have skipped your last warpin because you just gave away 700 minerals for nothing (which you could have used for a 3rd base. Attack and expand behind it). So after this engagement you had 13 more workers, but he had 3 CCs and his army supply and upgrades were so much ahead of yours. He was ahead. In the final engagement you had 3 Immortals and 2 Archons. Against mech you need A TON of those two units OR a massive air army. Upon seeing mech play, go for 2 robos, Chrono your armor upgrades, add archons and immortals, harass a lot and expand and don’t attack into a fortified terran army unless you are 100% sure that you will crush it. Try to catch him when he is not sieged up. Game vs Soko: Much better this time. 2nd Robo and armor upgrades and fast 3rd was nice to see. Your templar archive was a bit late though. You handled that first fight very well. What I didn’t like was that in the second big fight at 17 minutes you didn’t have a single archon and only 1 zealot to tank damage. Your army was clumped up again. You should always try to engage from different angles to minimize his splash damage. I would have preferred a Immortal-Archon-teamplar-Zealot composition instead of a lot of colossus because his Vikings could just kill them without any problems. You lost your base and your army and that was basically the nail in the coffin. Templar could have been used to storm the Vikings and the hellbats and I guess with archons instead of that many colossus you would have crushed his army easily and ended up ahead. After that fight he just played out his advantage and that was it. I wanna mention that your vision was bad. You always have to know where his army is going to catch him off guard. You should be the one who decides where to fight cause he will just pick a position where it is hard for you to attack into. Therefore you have to have an eye on his army (more observers, better positioning) and attack him off guard. Game vs World Engagement at 19mins: Bad positioning again. Your pylons and cannons worked against you because it blocked your army and created a funnel which benefited terran. A big chunk of your army wasn’t even fighting. That’s why you lost so clearly. And you didn’t see him moving out cause you had no vision. With a better positioning you could have won the fight and the game. Fight at 23mins: Again, bad positioning. You have to pick better fight positions!! That’s your main problem. You always attack where you shouldn’t be attacking. You absolutely have to attack from different angles!!! It will change so much! You also always have to know where the army is going so you can catch him while he is unsieged. I would still love to see less colossus and more archons. In general I think you can use a greedier opening. Start building that zealot, scout if he is blocking your natural. If so, let it finish. If he doesn’t, cancel it and throw down nexus. You are perfectly fine with a 20 nexus and a faster MSC and stalker. | ||
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HelpMeGetBetter
United States764 Posts
All I do know is that I have to get a stalker and obs out as quickly as possible. Stalker to defend against reaper, and Robo to spot the obvious widow mines drops. And taking a third is downright impossible for me thanks to, like I said, super-medivacs spreading my units out. Why does one medivac of units do some much damage....I dont get it. Okay, my rambling is done...  | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On August 20 2013 09:32 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: I am so lost in PvT, it's really depressing me... In WOL, PvT was my best matchup by far. I would get a PvT matchup and I would just assume a win for me. Now I have no idea what to do. I feel like I can't move out onto the map for the first 15mins of the game thanks to widow mines and super-medivacs. All I do know is that I have to get a stalker and obs out as quickly as possible. Stalker to defend against reaper, and Robo to spot the obvious widow mines drops. And taking a third is downright impossible for me thanks to, like I said, super-medivacs spreading my units out. Why does one medivac of units do some much damage....I dont get it. Okay, my rambling is done... A replay is generally more helpful, but here are some quick tips: 1) Look at doing some new metagame builds. In WoL, the general play was to 1-gate FE, get 2 more gateways, then add double forge, then add colossus bay + twilight. In HotS, you should either be doing a) a MsC expand (22 nexus) or b) a 1-gate FE with a really aggressive zealot/stalker/MsC poke. You should then follow up with forges before gateways. The rest is approximately the same, but you can start off much greedier in HotS. 2) When getting ready to take a 3rd, simply leave 3-5 zealots/MsC in your main while pushing out with your main army. With the new medivacs, you just need to have a few units already in position; you can't just rely on emergency warpins. Between nexus cannon and a few units sitting at home, you should have no problem dealing with drops while taking a 3rd (unless your opponent is INnoVation). 3) Just survive until you have 3 bases, storm, and colossus out. Once you have that, you're basically set. Check out some Rain games or maybe First vs. FantaSy (OSL) for some ideas. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On August 20 2013 09:32 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: I am so lost in PvT, it's really depressing me... In WOL, PvT was my best matchup by far. I would get a PvT matchup and I would just assume a win for me. Now I have no idea what to do. I feel like I can't move out onto the map for the first 15mins of the game thanks to widow mines and super-medivacs. All I do know is that I have to get a stalker and obs out as quickly as possible. Stalker to defend against reaper, and Robo to spot the obvious widow mines drops. And taking a third is downright impossible for me thanks to, like I said, super-medivacs spreading my units out. Why does one medivac of units do some much damage....I dont get it. Okay, my rambling is done... Without a replay/knowing what you're even trying to open theres almost no way to help you. I'd suggest learning Rain's MSC expand. It has the observers out in time to spot for widow mines/drops, it can hold the <10:00 drops with just 3 stalkers and an MSC, and secures a 10:00 third with a 9:30 colossus. Also not much is different from WoL. Terran simply has a few new units to pressure with at roughly the same times they always had, and Protoss has the MSC to be even more greedy to defend against them. Terran has always dominated the early-mid game. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
a) Some wierd ass heavy (like 4+) reaper opening b) Proxy fact mines c) A widow mine drop, with or without a hellion runby d) 11/11 of course Basically anything else from 2rax reactor/tech lab to cloak banshees to 111 is stopped by purify or the faster robo that the msc allows. This makes reading a terran opponent's intentions much easier than it was in wol. That said, if your issue is drops, you are likely not executing correctly. You NEED to have observers in position to spot his units while you take a third. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On August 20 2013 18:02 Teoita wrote: That said, if your issue is drops, you are likely not executing correctly. You NEED to have observers in position to spot his units while you take a third. This. Mothership core can basically defend 2 bases from drops/harass. As long as you have decent observer placement, you can position your Mothership core and army to defend all three bases correctly. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
I have been opening FFE into Phoenix. Usually this baits out roach/hydra pushes. My robo comes down after my second Phoenix and by the time the push comes I've got Colossus or enough forcefields to get a Colossus out and I'm fine. However, there is a style of Z that totally counters my build seemingly. Zerg basically only makes lings and puts 2 spores in every base. Then bam before I can do anything there's 10 Ultras out. Or 40 muta. Or whatever he wants. If I identify that the Zerg is going for this heavy speedling opening into really fast tech/upgrades.. what's the best timing to hit to punish that and what's the best unit comp to be able to deal swift damage? | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
On August 21 2013 00:50 DinoMight wrote: Guys, need some PvZ help. I have been opening FFE into Phoenix. Usually this baits out roach/hydra pushes. My robo comes down after my second Phoenix and by the time the push comes I've got Colossus or enough forcefields to get a Colossus out and I'm fine. However, there is a style of Z that totally counters my build seemingly. Zerg basically only makes lings and puts 2 spores in every base. Then bam before I can do anything there's 10 Ultras out. Or 40 muta. Or whatever he wants. If I identify that the Zerg is going for this heavy speedling opening into really fast tech/upgrades.. what's the best timing to hit to punish that and what's the best unit comp to be able to deal swift damage? Well if you open phoenix and fail to do any damage to him you basically lost already vs anyone of equal skill... Phoenixes can take a beating so make sure your wall is great for the lings and get in there and harass the shit out of him regardless of a few spores. You need to do damage if you are opening phoenix. Also you will want archons asap if hes just massing muta/ling. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On August 20 2013 18:02 Teoita wrote: Also, terran has far less pressure builds and/or allins in the early to mid game. The only ones that are common are a) Some wierd ass heavy (like 4+) reaper opening b) Proxy fact mines c) A widow mine drop, with or without a hellion runby d) 11/11 of course Basically anything else from 2rax reactor/tech lab to cloak banshees to 111 is stopped by purify or the faster robo that the msc allows. This makes reading a terran opponent's intentions much easier than it was in wol. That said, if your issue is drops, you are likely not executing correctly. You NEED to have observers in position to spot his units while you take a third. To be fair towards the end of WoL virtually every Terran 1 rax fe'ed. 2 rax/banshee/1-1-1 were pretty rare. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
That said, if you take a third it's really hard if not impossible to hit some kind of timing. Your best bet off a phoenix opener is to go into the 222 all-in, but it's hard to do it reactively. Regarding scouting, observers and stargate units don't really cut it anymore, so rely on hallucination to see his tech buildings. Keep an obs at his rally point (usually between nat and third) to see what units he's making; these two pieces of info should give you a decent enough read. | ||
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HelpMeGetBetter
United States764 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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1a2a3aPro
Canada227 Posts
- Zergs at my level are getting much more active at spotting probes moving out and hunting down proxy pylons (I'm a top diamond player) - Mutalisks. Fucking mutalisks. Especially the two base "I saw you going gateway expand so I'm going two base muta" play. It's so hard to deal with. Does anyone have a replay I can study of a 3wg stargate off gate expand style? I saw HerO doing something on GSL up/down matches like this but I don't remember the game exactly. I think it was gate expand -> sg -> 3 gates -> zealot pressure at third with a bunch of pheonix (no sentries). I just feel like this is the "standard" transition from a gateway expand, and much safer against mutas, no? You obviously add robo after producing enough pheonix and take a third, I just want a replay to study the timings. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On August 22 2013 02:10 1a2a3aPro wrote: I'm using a gateway expand into 4 gate pressure on the ladder, but two things are making me reconsider: - Zergs at my level are getting much more active at spotting probes moving out and hunting down proxy pylons (I'm a top diamond player) You can't just proxy the first pylon all the way near their third like you could in Plat. you have to put it basically like 1/2 or 2/3 of the way up. Also you send your mothership core and some units to clear towers and defend the pylon. Once you've got 1-2 warpins you can build another proxy pylon further up. If you already have units the Zerg will lose lots of units trying to kill it so usually they just pull back and let it finish. On August 22 2013 02:10 1a2a3aPro wrote:- Mutalisks. Fucking mutalisks. Especially the two base "I saw you going gateway expand so I'm going two base muta" play. It's so hard to deal with. If you're both on 2 base, you win. Get back to your base, defend for a bit, get some archons and blink and go kill him. make a few cannons in your minerals too. He can't defend a 4 gate pressure AND take a 3rd AND go muta. It's just not possible. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
How do you deal with the constant Protoss OP, EZ, 1A, etc. bullshit that everyone at every level of the game has been saying since WoL came out depsite Protoss being by far the lowest performing race in individual, best of X format tournaments (specifically excluding ProLeague here). Pretty much anytime I beat a Terran or Zerg they make me feel like I have no skill at all. And I don't even play the super all-in conflippy Protoss that people complain about. I play exclusively macro games in every matchup, and play a very mutltitasking / harass focused style while econing my way up to max army.... Basically I play Terran as Protoss. Diamond Toss with 1100+ ladder pts this season, win rate about 60% or so. I remember in WoL I got so fed up with this anti Protoss bullshit that I swtiched to Terran for 2 weeks and at the end of the 2 weeks I was beating some Diamond players... so clearly I AM capable of playing T... Someone help me out here. I really feel like I am better at StarCraft 2 than the people I beat. But often I just get fucking fed up with the Protoss OP bullshit and I doubt my abilities. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
and I play a super cheesy/rage inducing style so I get it all the time. At some point you just get used to it. Im about the same skill level as you so I know what you mean. (1250 diamond this season) | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Regarding the 4gate pressure, the standard build usually moves out with 1/2 units and the msc which should be enough to escort your probe across the map and get a pylon. Push with the first warp-in, don't stick around waiting for 2-3 rounds. I really don't give a shit about what people say on ladder tbh. Don't listen to idiots like that, it's really pointless. At pretty much every level, people suck so badly that balance is nowhere close to being relevant. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On August 22 2013 02:55 VayneAuthority wrote: if you don't find it amusing/pathetic then you just need to lighten up. I usually just troll them even more since it's fun. and I play a super cheesy/rage inducing style so I get it all the time. At some point you just get used to it. Im about the same skill level as you so I know what you mean. (1250 diamond this season) Lol I do find it fun sometimes.. I'm on 4 bases multitasking this poor guy to death and i get "LOL typical protoss cheese" and then ragequit.. that's funny. When the complaints are so ridiculous you just can't help but laugh and brush it off. But like.. when it's every single person ALL THE TIME including my own clan teammates/practice partners and shit... ugh. It gets a bit frustrating. I get the sense that no PvT win I ever have is "legitimate" and that if I make Void Rays vs Zerg than I "Instawin." Both of which are completely false statements... but still. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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