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On August 16 2013 00:43 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
So I went for a DT rush, and it did not work. Opp suspected it and got a Obs...
Followed up with a zealot/archon push, which my opponent was lucky enough to scout out.
My question is - he responded to the zealot/archon by walling off his natural with gateways and pylons. what is the best way to get around this already down in econ, tech, and committed to the zealot/archon?
It doesn't really take much luck to know that an opponent who rushes DT's and doesn't expand can only follow it up a zealot/archon all-in, and the gateway wall is the normal response. It shouldn't work against a decent player.
DT expands are better. Drop a Nexus and a forge and start upgrading, and eventually a Robo and start churning out immortals (unless he randomly drops a double stargate). You get the benefit of not outright dying ontop of a few free coin flip wins.
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United States4883 Posts
On August 16 2013 00:43 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
So I went for a DT rush, and it did not work. Opp suspected it and got a Obs...
Followed up with a zealot/archon push, which my opponent was lucky enough to scout out.
My question is - he responded to the zealot/archon by walling off his natural with gateways and pylons. what is the best way to get around this already down in econ, tech, and committed to the zealot/archon?
Simply take a 3rd before your opponent and proceed into either 1) tempest tech if your opponent went colossus, 2) storm/archon tech if your opponent went mass void rays, or 3) continue with immortal/archon/chargelot if your opponent is zealot/archon as well.
DT rushes are actually fine in the meta, even if they get an obs out, you just have to expand as early as possible behind it (generally just before the DTs warp in).
EDIT: Oh, were we talking about 1-base zealot/archon? That's just bad, don't do it.
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Italy12246 Posts
On August 16 2013 01:10 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 00:43 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
So I went for a DT rush, and it did not work. Opp suspected it and got a Obs...
Followed up with a zealot/archon push, which my opponent was lucky enough to scout out.
My question is - he responded to the zealot/archon by walling off his natural with gateways and pylons. what is the best way to get around this already down in econ, tech, and committed to the zealot/archon? It doesn't really take much luck to know that an opponent who rushes DT's and doesn't expand can only follow it up a zealot/archon all-in, and the gateway wall is the normal response. It shouldn't work against a decent player. DT expands are better. Drop a Nexus and a forge and start upgrading, and eventually a Robo and start churning out immortals (unless he randomly drops a double stargate). You get the benefit of not outright dying ontop of a few free coin flip wins.
While this is true, dt expo with a robo is stronger than with a forge. The robo allows for easier detection as well as scouting, immortals and warp prisms. The faster upgrades aren't really worth it.
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On August 16 2013 01:15 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 01:10 rd wrote:On August 16 2013 00:43 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
So I went for a DT rush, and it did not work. Opp suspected it and got a Obs...
Followed up with a zealot/archon push, which my opponent was lucky enough to scout out.
My question is - he responded to the zealot/archon by walling off his natural with gateways and pylons. what is the best way to get around this already down in econ, tech, and committed to the zealot/archon? It doesn't really take much luck to know that an opponent who rushes DT's and doesn't expand can only follow it up a zealot/archon all-in, and the gateway wall is the normal response. It shouldn't work against a decent player. DT expands are better. Drop a Nexus and a forge and start upgrading, and eventually a Robo and start churning out immortals (unless he randomly drops a double stargate). You get the benefit of not outright dying ontop of a few free coin flip wins. While this is true, dt expo with a robo is stronger than with a forge. The robo allows for easier detection as well as scouting, immortals and warp prisms. The faster upgrades aren't really worth it.
Unless your opponent is shooting towards colossus, you don't really need a blind robo that fast unless you want the prism harass sooner than later. Even if you wanted it sooner though, it's pretty hard to get much damage done with a prism when your opponent is on =<2 base, unless you're committing heavily to 2 base. Hallucinated phoenixes give the same information an obs can give, and you're dead before the detection comes out if you really needed it anyways.
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I'm having a lot of problem versus mech guys. I've read alot about it, tried to watch pro vods of PvMech (But I'm having a hard time finding any recent, been looking for Strelok games) but I'm just clueless. I try to expand like a maniac but it gets shut down pretty hard. I have the upgrade advantage but gets rolled anyway. I try to force engagements when he's unsieged. I go for mass immortals and I always do runbys with chargelots but nothing works.
I'm currently 0-9 versus mech during the last weeks and it's so frustrating because it's about to get buffed and I can't even win with the current supposedly weak mech...
I'll add my last three replays:
#1 http://drop.sc/354350
#2 http://drop.sc/354349
#3 http://drop.sc/354351
In some games I try to transition into air but haven't been successful with that. At all.
Would appreciate any comments regarding my replays!
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Italy12246 Posts
Not necessarily. A very safe dt expand can get an obs in time for dt's. Faster immortals are always nice too, and if you have a robo you don't need as many/as fast sentries.
Finally, in a DT mirror (which is surprisingly common) the robo is WAY better than the forge, since you will deny your opponent's nexus while he can't do anything about yours.
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Are there currently any amazing 3 base timings in PvZ?
Since I got mid master level I have a LOT of trouble in PvZ. I played a lot with Alicia's skytoss style and still like it but if the Zerg gets infestors, it's almost over - even with splits it's insanely difficult to trade decently. Do you have to do damage with the void rays (like killing a hatch)? I can give you some replays if necessary.
I also tried that new style by Naniwa with voidray / chargelot / archon but even then I had no chance against queen/infestor or hydra/infestor.
With standard macro builds I often die to viper timings or muta / corruptor which I absolutely HATE.
I may go all-in in every PvZ as I did in WoL. I really hate HotS PvZ with the muta regen & swarm hosts to be honest.
Any good all-ins you can recomend? I like to do gate expands, but I have bad experience with man train (easy to scout) and average experience with 5 / 7 gates.
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Italy12246 Posts
Soultrain is as good as ever imo. If you want to 2base, you could try a 2base colossus push like this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=416819
Regardind 3base timings, as you pointed out scary zerg tech like sh, muta, viper or ultra comes out much faster, so you need to hit faster too. You could try studying stardust's 3base zealot/sentry/immortal stuff, it's basically a soultrain on steroids.
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What about very open maps like star station or akilon? Which all-ins are good here?
Stardust also likes to go 7gate +1 which I also could try on these maps.
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Italy12246 Posts
On akilon, forcefield-based timings are actually pretty strong, as you can abuse both the rocks going to the zerg's forth and the space between the nat and third (if you can get there).
Star station is just kind of annoying overall in pvz. I usually do the void ray/chargelot thing there, but i've seen stardust do his 3base immortal builds so they can definitely work.
7gate +1 is kind of a universal build (ie, it works on any map), personally i'm not a huge fan of it but you can make it work if you have really solid micro and macro (gotta hit that timing, even a delay of 10/20 seconds means you might lose the game).
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I used to be a diamond terran player until I decided to make the switch to protoss, then I dropped into gold league. I think I finally have a good feel for the macro side of protoss, however I am having a really difficult time figuring out when I should be attacking my opponent. As terran, following FilterSC bronze to masters, I just always attacked at 10 min. I really enjoy the macro play style and as protoss I usually end up waiting 200/200 till I finally move out.
Currently I have been using these builds:
PvZ
FFE into Robo tech
+ Show Spoiler +
FFE
5:50: Robo with the next 100 gas after Warpgate and Stalker.
6:35: +1 Weapons with the next 100 gas.
6:25: 3rd gas.
7:10: 4th gas.
Robo units: Observer, Immortals as necessary.
7:00: 3 extra Gates.
8:00: Twilight Council, start Blink and +2 when it completes.
10:00: 3rd Nexus.
10:50: 3 extra Gates to simcity.
PvT
1 Gate Expand
+ Show Spoiler +
9 Pylon
13 Gateway
15 Assimilator
16 Pylon
18 @100% Gateway, start Cybernetics Core
19 Zealot
22 Pylon
24 @100% Cybernetics Core, start Stalker and Warpgate Research
29 @400 Mins, start Nexus
@100 Gas, start Mothership Core and 2nd Assimilator
@100 Gas, start Robotics Facility
@100 Gas, start Sentry and 2 more Gateways
@100% Robotics Facility, start Observer
@100% Observer, start 2nd Observer, Robotics Bay, 2 Forges, and 2 more Assimilators
@100% Forges, start +1/+1
@100% Robotics Bay, start Extended Thermal Lance and constant Colossus production
@100% 1st Colossus, start Twilight Council
@100% +1/+1, start +2/+2, and add 3 more Gateways
PvP
Naniwa safe expand
+ Show Spoiler +9 Pylon
13 Gateway
15 Assimilator
16 Pylon
18 @100% Gateway, start Cybernetics Core and 2nd Assimilator
21 Pylon21
@100% Cybernetics Core, start Warpgate Research and a Stalker
25 @100 Gas, start Mothership Core
@100% Stalker, start 1st Sentry
@400 Mins, start Nexus
Pause Probe production
@150 Mins, start Gateway
@100% 1st Sentry, start 2nd Sentry
@100 Gas, start Robotics Facility
Resume Probe production
@100% Warpgate, warp-in 2 Zealots
@100% Robotics Facility, start Immortal and Hallucinate a Phoenix to scout your opponent’s main base
Benchmark: When your first Immortal finishes (@7:10ish), you should have 32 Probes, 1 Stalker, 2 Sentries, 2 Zealots, and a Mothership Core.
With a macro play style what should I be considering when I decide to make the killing blow?
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United States4883 Posts
On August 17 2013 14:40 Mertz wrote:I used to be a diamond terran player until I decided to make the switch to protoss, then I dropped into gold league. I think I finally have a good feel for the macro side of protoss, however I am having a really difficult time figuring out when I should be attacking my opponent. As terran, following FilterSC bronze to masters, I just always attacked at 10 min. I really enjoy the macro play style and as protoss I usually end up waiting 200/200 till I finally move out. Currently I have been using these builds: PvZ FFE into Robo tech + Show Spoiler +
FFE
5:50: Robo with the next 100 gas after Warpgate and Stalker.
6:35: +1 Weapons with the next 100 gas.
6:25: 3rd gas.
7:10: 4th gas.
Robo units: Observer, Immortals as necessary.
7:00: 3 extra Gates.
8:00: Twilight Council, start Blink and +2 when it completes.
10:00: 3rd Nexus.
10:50: 3 extra Gates to simcity.
PvT 1 Gate Expand + Show Spoiler +
9 Pylon
13 Gateway
15 Assimilator
16 Pylon
18 @100% Gateway, start Cybernetics Core
19 Zealot
22 Pylon
24 @100% Cybernetics Core, start Stalker and Warpgate Research
29 @400 Mins, start Nexus
@100 Gas, start Mothership Core and 2nd Assimilator
@100 Gas, start Robotics Facility
@100 Gas, start Sentry and 2 more Gateways
@100% Robotics Facility, start Observer
@100% Observer, start 2nd Observer, Robotics Bay, 2 Forges, and 2 more Assimilators
@100% Forges, start +1/+1
@100% Robotics Bay, start Extended Thermal Lance and constant Colossus production
@100% 1st Colossus, start Twilight Council
@100% +1/+1, start +2/+2, and add 3 more Gateways
PvP Naniwa safe expand + Show Spoiler +9 Pylon
13 Gateway
15 Assimilator
16 Pylon
18 @100% Gateway, start Cybernetics Core and 2nd Assimilator
21 Pylon21
@100% Cybernetics Core, start Warpgate Research and a Stalker
25 @100 Gas, start Mothership Core
@100% Stalker, start 1st Sentry
@400 Mins, start Nexus
Pause Probe production
@150 Mins, start Gateway
@100% 1st Sentry, start 2nd Sentry
@100 Gas, start Robotics Facility
Resume Probe production
@100% Warpgate, warp-in 2 Zealots
@100% Robotics Facility, start Immortal and Hallucinate a Phoenix to scout your opponent’s main base
Benchmark: When your first Immortal finishes (@7:10ish), you should have 32 Probes, 1 Stalker, 2 Sentries, 2 Zealots, and a Mothership Core. With a macro play style what should I be considering when I decide to make the killing blow?
PvZ: This build is pretty much a deathwish in HotS, as it's nearly impossible to deal with mutalisks. You should probably be looking more towards this build (phoenix into colossus/3rd base): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=420782.
PvT: This build looks pretty good, but wrong on a few minor details. First, make sure you make the MsC first, as it's actually most important to build this as soon as possible and start accumulating energy. Second, your additional gateways should be coming a little earlier than when +1/+1 finishes (~9:00). From here, you can generally take your 3rd with blink/colossus and add in templar tech.
PvP: This is a good build for the most part. Another PvP FE build that I recently discovered is this (Rain's 2-gate FE): http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=425675. In my opinion, Rain's build is safer and overall more solid...might be a good alternative if you find you're dying to any kinds of pressure.
As far as playing protoss in general, my opinion is: play like Rain. If you look at Rain's style, he is more than willing to fall behind a bit economically so that he can be safe and not die because if you can get to the lategame, protoss is very strong with colossus/storm, zealot/DT warpins, warp prisms, tempests, etc. That being said, you will rarely see Rain attack until he's maxed out with all of his upgrades.
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On August 17 2013 16:06 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2013 14:40 Mertz wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I used to be a diamond terran player until I decided to make the switch to protoss, then I dropped into gold league. I think I finally have a good feel for the macro side of protoss, however I am having a really difficult time figuring out when I should be attacking my opponent. As terran, following FilterSC bronze to masters, I just always attacked at 10 min. I really enjoy the macro play style and as protoss I usually end up waiting 200/200 till I finally move out. Currently I have been using these builds: PvZ FFE into Robo tech + Show Spoiler +
FFE
5:50: Robo with the next 100 gas after Warpgate and Stalker.
6:35: +1 Weapons with the next 100 gas.
6:25: 3rd gas.
7:10: 4th gas.
Robo units: Observer, Immortals as necessary.
7:00: 3 extra Gates.
8:00: Twilight Council, start Blink and +2 when it completes.
10:00: 3rd Nexus.
10:50: 3 extra Gates to simcity.
PvT 1 Gate Expand + Show Spoiler +
9 Pylon
13 Gateway
15 Assimilator
16 Pylon
18 @100% Gateway, start Cybernetics Core
19 Zealot
22 Pylon
24 @100% Cybernetics Core, start Stalker and Warpgate Research
29 @400 Mins, start Nexus
@100 Gas, start Mothership Core and 2nd Assimilator
@100 Gas, start Robotics Facility
@100 Gas, start Sentry and 2 more Gateways
@100% Robotics Facility, start Observer
@100% Observer, start 2nd Observer, Robotics Bay, 2 Forges, and 2 more Assimilators
@100% Forges, start +1/+1
@100% Robotics Bay, start Extended Thermal Lance and constant Colossus production
@100% 1st Colossus, start Twilight Council
@100% +1/+1, start +2/+2, and add 3 more Gateways
PvP Naniwa safe expand + Show Spoiler +9 Pylon
13 Gateway
15 Assimilator
16 Pylon
18 @100% Gateway, start Cybernetics Core and 2nd Assimilator
21 Pylon21
@100% Cybernetics Core, start Warpgate Research and a Stalker
25 @100 Gas, start Mothership Core
@100% Stalker, start 1st Sentry
@400 Mins, start Nexus
Pause Probe production
@150 Mins, start Gateway
@100% 1st Sentry, start 2nd Sentry
@100 Gas, start Robotics Facility
Resume Probe production
@100% Warpgate, warp-in 2 Zealots
@100% Robotics Facility, start Immortal and Hallucinate a Phoenix to scout your opponent’s main base
Benchmark: When your first Immortal finishes (@7:10ish), you should have 32 Probes, 1 Stalker, 2 Sentries, 2 Zealots, and a Mothership Core. With a macro play style what should I be considering when I decide to make the killing blow? PvZ: This build is pretty much a deathwish in HotS, as it's nearly impossible to deal with mutalisks. You should probably be looking more towards this build (phoenix into colossus/3rd base): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=420782. PvT: This build looks pretty good, but wrong on a few minor details. First, make sure you make the MsC first, as it's actually most important to build this as soon as possible and start accumulating energy. Second, your additional gateways should be coming a little earlier than when +1/+1 finishes (~9:00). From here, you can generally take your 3rd with blink/colossus and add in templar tech. PvP: This is a good build for the most part. Another PvP FE build that I recently discovered is this (Rain's 2-gate FE): http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=425675. In my opinion, Rain's build is safer and overall more solid...might be a good alternative if you find you're dying to any kinds of pressure. As far as playing protoss in general, my opinion is: play like Rain. If you look at Rain's style, he is more than willing to fall behind a bit economically so that he can be safe and not die because if you can get to the lategame, protoss is very strong with colossus/storm, zealot/DT warpins, warp prisms, tempests, etc. That being said, you will rarely see Rain attack until he's maxed out with all of his upgrades.
Thanks I currently am trying these builds out just against the ai to get a feel for them and I find that while I micro the phoenixes or go for that early pressure in the 2 gate, I suffer in macro. The 2 gate seems a little easier for me to handle so I know I can get a handle on that. It might take a lot more time to get use to the stargate but in the end this will get me to be a better player.
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Hello,
ever since Rain lost in the OSL finals I have been unable to win in PvT. I have gone from a 75% winrate down to a 45% winrate. I have probably lost my last 15 in a row at least. My other 2 matchups are still fine. Has anything changed about the matchup that I should know about? It seems no matter how badly I cripple the terran's economy, they always get huge 3M armies basically fabricated out of thin air and it confuses me greatly as this was never the case before then. I don't even know what to do in this matchup anymore.
The first problem I have after expanding is - 2nd gate or robo? If they do widow mine play and I opt for the 2nd gate, I basically auto lose. If I go for the robo before 2nd gate and they just do standard 3M timing rush, I auto lose due to lack of units. What is a balanced way I can take care of both? Because of scan/reaper they always know what im up to but hallucinated phoenix doesn't come out fast enough to see what they are doing.
help because im tired of losing to terran -_-
diamond for reference
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I have 75% PvT now (currently sitting at 1765 points at master).
To be honest, I nearly always throw down my robo at ~5:15. You can hold everything else with your first units. In my case, the first units are MSC, stalker, sentry, sentry.
If I scout a gas opening but a marine instead of a reaper I instantly go with my first stalker and scout if I see any mines or hellions off 1 base. If I see a reaper opening I just play passively with my stalker & 2 sentrys, throw down my robo at ~5:15 and 2 gates a bit later.
In midgame you can do many things from DT drops to templar tech or colossus tech. I always go double forge colossi just because I'm used to - I always wanted to play like CreatorPrime in WoL and I still do that build and have great sucess with it.
But my PvZ... Oh god damn, it's so awful since I am in master. Zerg just troll me with whatever unit composition they want and I am just way too stupid to do something. My PvZ once was at 80% because I had a great game read in PvZ but somehow it's gone. Or master zergs are just way better than I'm used to.
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Italy12246 Posts
You are supposed to have enough units by the time a 2base push hits you wether you went 3gate into robo or 1gate into robo into 3gate. Your lack of units isn't determined by your early game build.
To answer your question, with the added defenses of the msc and nexus cannon there is no reason not to go 1gate fe into robo every game.
Reading a terran isn't very hard. Currently their builds are quite limited. If they open gassless, they will almost always go straight bio, so you can play it pretty much like wol. If they open gas without a reaper, they are going widow mine drop 100%. If they open reaper, you have to account for both possiblities, so i recommend being in position for a widow mine drop and not cutting units, but being active with your scouting using probe pokes, early stalkers and fast observers (remember, you are always going 1gate robo, so you can rally your first obs straight across the map!) to identify exactly what he's doing and react to it. I almost never hallu scout in early game and i don't have any problems in deflecting what a terran of equal skill level throws at me.
In the midgame you can do both templar or colossus builds as bahajinbo posted. WoL style play is still fairly close, ie, play defensive and get 6gates and tech vs a medivac timing, play greedier vs 3cc.
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On August 18 2013 05:15 Teoita wrote:
You are supposed to have enough units by the time a 2base push hits you wether you went 3gate into robo or 1gate into robo into 3gate. Your lack of units isn't determined by your early game build.
To answer your question, with the added defenses of the msc and nexus cannon there is no reason not to go 1gate fe into robo every game.
Reading a terran isn't very hard. Currently their builds are quite limited. If they open gassless, they will almost always go straight bio, so you can play it pretty much like wol. If they open gas without a reaper, they are going widow mine drop 100%. If they open reaper, you have to account for both possiblities, so i recommend being in position for a widow mine drop and not cutting units, but being active with your scouting using probe pokes, early stalkers and fast observers (remember, you are always going 1gate robo, so you can rally your first obs straight across the map!) to identify exactly what he's doing and react to it. I almost never hallu scout in early game and i don't have any problems in deflecting what a terran of equal skill level throws at me.
In the midgame you can do both templar or colossus builds as bahajinbo posted. WoL style play is still fairly close, ie, play defensive and get 6gates and tech vs a medivac timing, play greedier vs 3cc.
pretty much every single terran does the same opening, the 1 reaper FE build. It doesn't give you any info on if they are transitioning to widow mine or just straight bio as you stated.
I need help on build then because when I go 1 gate FE into robo, I never have enough units to deal with the timing push that involves the first 2 medivacs. I activate nexus cannon to defend, but then they simply elevator units into main and keep doing that back and forth while rallying and eventually nexus cannons run out while they harass me.
If I opt to stay safe from the timing push then usually obs are a bit late on dealing with the widow mine and I lose ample mining time, to a point where its basically gg vs any decent terran.
After I get past that first phase, usually with pretty decent losses, I am able to rebound once I get my tech out. But then it goes downhill from there due to protoss mobility. If I split units to stop drops they simply attack from the front. If I have units ready at the front they drop units in main and blah blah blah. How do you deal with terran mobility as an added question?
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Italy12246 Posts
Again, 1gate into robo or 2gate into robo after expand doesn't influence your unit count by the time the medivac push hits, which is a full 5 minutes after you've committed to either of those builds. More then anything, it sounds like you don't have a crisp build and/or good execution, so i recommend watching a vod of a pro build you like, and trying to match their timings (you likely won't be able to, but at least try to get close).
As far as dealing with their mobility, the answer is the same as always. Specific builds and units don't really matter, but good minimap awareness and execution do. The only difference from WoL to HotS is that now you pretty much need 3 observers while with some builds in WoL you could get away with 2. Other than that it all comes down to good execution and awareness.
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Could someone post a solid 1 gate FE into phoenix PvZ build order? And a top korean level vod where it is used?
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how do you correctly defend a 2 base archon timing if you open with phoenixes?
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EPT
