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On November 13 2013 19:18 Maphack wrote:
Actually, I have no problem with earlygame building(and don't stick to any build order as well), the problem is lategame macro. I can easily have lair, +1/+1 and 100/100 at 15 minutes, which is horribly slow. Sometimes I don't expand when needed(and lose because of that), sometimes, like my last game, I don't produce army when need(lost because of attacking protoss 3rd too late, he held it and won), and lots of mistakes like this. Don't actually know what to do with this.
If what you explain is true... then i think there are multiple things that go wrong.
I think a coaching session from a higher player when your playing the game would help you alot.
Just to give you the correct mindset in the game.
On November 14 2013 05:45 skyafterrain wrote:
What is the general gas timing for Zerg, in every match up ? I know it is all depend on your build order but I just want a general plan/rule so I can adapt when thing go wrong and I mess up my bo( which is always happend to me since I am in lower league)
for example / in zvp take double gas at 6.00 add 3&4th when you saturate your 3rd, somethings like this in every mu
Thanks
general gas timings as zerg... in the current meta.
zvz 15 hatch/pool 16 gas... don't know timestamp
zvt if you go for speedling and then put drones to minerals again 16/17 gas. and at 5:45/6:00 start mining gas again and get a 2nd gas geyser. If you go gasless start 2 gas geysers at 5:30
zvp 6:00 gas
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On November 13 2013 21:10 Maphack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 19:36 THAmarx wrote:On November 13 2013 19:18 Maphack wrote:
Hello.
I am silver player and I'm horribly slow in terms of macro, and just playing don't seem to help much. Any exercises which will help me improve? hi maphack, I am higher level but i have the same problems as you. What i have done is: Write my buildorders down on supply level untill the 10 min mark. Opened a custom game and praticed my builds vs very easy AI or none at all. Then i printed my buildorder out and made comments at certain timings... like 6:00 overlord scout main. This improved my play a lot. Why => your practicing your macro. You are optimizing your buildorder When practicing you can compare and reflect with your past.. what goes better .. what went wrong. Actually, I have no problem with earlygame building(and don't stick to any build order as well), the problem is lategame macro. I can easily have lair, +1/+1 and 100/100 at 15 minutes, which is horribly slow. Sometimes I don't expand when needed(and lose because of that), sometimes, like my last game, I don't produce army when need(lost because of attacking protoss 3rd too late, he held it and won), and lots of mistakes like this. Don't actually know what to do with this.
Maphack, try 'Creep or Die' in the Arcade. It's a great map to practice injecting and spreading creep while playing. Then you can try the Multitasking Trainer, which is an even more challenging exercise for practicing macro while dealing with harassment. GLHF!
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why do people get lair on second?
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On November 15 2013 22:00 Werster wrote:
why do people get lair on second?
You mean on nat? I do it for the HP increase and to not get scouted with a scan, same reason i take my nat geysers first as well
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Russian Federation36 Posts
im struggling hard against terran. can you recommend me optimal build order against 3 ccs, because i don't quite understand when it's the best time to drone up and build mutalisk
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What can I do better in this game? I wasn't too sure how to defend hellion properly but I didn't feel I was too behind at that point. The problem is however the late game. I contained him in 3 bases but he was still able to churn out an unlimited stream of marine.
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On November 16 2013 22:09 invisible.terran wrote:What can I do better in this game? I wasn't too sure how to defend hellion properly but I didn't feel I was too behind at that point. The problem is however the late game. I contained him in 3 bases but he was still able to churn out an unlimited stream of marine.
problem was actually the early game.
you were behind in economy the whole early game. when you are cleaning up initial hellion harass, you have about 12 lings in production that pop after all harass is cleaned up. could have been 6 drones. because of this you should have delayed getting ur gas because you had less drones but you proceed to get 2 extractors and lose saturation on your natural. i think the most important thing to realize is when you press the Z button to make lings you have to ask yourself if the hellions will even be there when they pop. dont be afraid to drone hard if there are hellions harassing you and you think your queens/simcity can deal with it.
props to you though for coming back. after the initial hellion harass i was going to close the game but you started to come back. but at some point maybe 12 mins in, you literally stop injecting whatsoever. given the way the game played out, you lost because of injects, but really the game could have gone alot smoother for you if you just had kept the eco lead.
i also think you should have stopped after 12 mutas and made swarm host.
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curious if 15 pool is ok against terran been running into a lot of proxy 2 rax. I usually sac my natural and bust the bunkers with spines and lings (or banes if a lot of bunkers). If they don't commit to the attack and just have enough to kill my expansion and pull out im usually behind and im playing catch up. Is 15 pool better atm to be safe or does that hurt my too much?
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On November 17 2013 21:02 A_Scarecrow wrote:
curious if 15 pool is ok against terran been running into a lot of proxy 2 rax. I usually sac my natural and bust the bunkers with spines and lings (or banes if a lot of bunkers). If they don't commit to the attack and just have enough to kill my expansion and pull out im usually behind and im playing catch up. Is 15 pool better atm to be safe or does that hurt my too much?
do you mean.. 15 pool after a hatch first or pool first? pool first is actually worse against a 2 rax. It's a common misunderstanding by other racing telling us to play less greedy and go pool first to defend that but the truth of it is we have to go hatch first to be able to defend a 2 rax (or a very early pool like 6-11). The reason is we need the creep to prevent them from building to many bunkers. Also the creep gives us the opportunity to make spines. If you play against a 2 rax with pool first you will find 5 bunkers at your natural and it's time to leave the game.
If you are really worried about 2 rax the best is prob to just send out a drone to scout around a bit to check if there's any evil scv/marines close to your natural.
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On November 17 2013 03:00 mooseman1710 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2013 22:09 invisible.terran wrote:What can I do better in this game? I wasn't too sure how to defend hellion properly but I didn't feel I was too behind at that point. The problem is however the late game. I contained him in 3 bases but he was still able to churn out an unlimited stream of marine. + Show Spoiler +problem was actually the early game.
you were behind in economy the whole early game. when you are cleaning up initial hellion harass, you have about 12 lings in production that pop after all harass is cleaned up. could have been 6 drones. because of this you should have delayed getting ur gas because you had less drones but you proceed to get 2 extractors and lose saturation on your natural. i think the most important thing to realize is when you press the Z button to make lings you have to ask yourself if the hellions will even be there when they pop. dont be afraid to drone hard if there are hellions harassing you and you think your queens/simcity can deal with it.
props to you though for coming back. after the initial hellion harass i was going to close the game but you started to come back. but at some point maybe 12 mins in, you literally stop injecting whatsoever. given the way the game played out, you lost because of injects, but really the game could have gone alot smoother for you if you just had kept the eco lead.
i also think you should have stopped after 12 mutas and made swarm host.
Thanks for your answer  . Can you actually recommend me how to defend the hellions more efficiently?
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So which composition should i aim for in ZvP lategame? I'm losing pretty much 100% of my ZvPs going longer then 20 minutes and only I wins are the ones where Protoss goes for an all-in and leave afterwards.
Happens quite often that they just take a 3rd after 20 minuts and slowly get their deathball and just roll my army. I've tried swarm hosts with very little success and I always feel like I'm depending on the protoss not to push out to early.
Muta switches into Baserace works some times but I just don't like this playstyle. I wanna fight the deathball headsup but I just don't know which composition works.
Roach/Hydra/Viper I mess up the engagements completely and get crushed as well. (also i'm not too sure how I should use my vipers) Or If I should get corrupters vs the colossi.
(I'm mid diamond, but ex master, so my mechanics should still be master level, I just couldn't keep up with HotS since the release so I'm lacking strategy knowledge)
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Roach, Hydra with vipers or corruptor is to either defend a timing or go for a timing yourself its not a lategame composition since you will always loose to a more supply efficient composition from the protoss. Ideally you want swarmhosts and broodlords with support from viper, infestor, corruptor, queen/hydra depending on what the protoss is building; more corruptor+viper against lots of collossi + tempest and hydra/infestor against voidray heavy compostions. You have to pick your units very carefully and micro them correctly, 4 control groups for army units is the minimum for zvp lategame.
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On November 17 2013 21:57 Incand wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2013 21:02 A_Scarecrow wrote:
curious if 15 pool is ok against terran been running into a lot of proxy 2 rax. I usually sac my natural and bust the bunkers with spines and lings (or banes if a lot of bunkers). If they don't commit to the attack and just have enough to kill my expansion and pull out im usually behind and im playing catch up. Is 15 pool better atm to be safe or does that hurt my too much? do you mean.. 15 pool after a hatch first or pool first? pool first is actually worse against a 2 rax. It's a common misunderstanding by other racing telling us to play less greedy and go pool first to defend that but the truth of it is we have to go hatch first to be able to defend a 2 rax (or a very early pool like 6-11). The reason is we need the creep to prevent them from building to many bunkers. Also the creep gives us the opportunity to make spines. If you play against a 2 rax with pool first you will find 5 bunkers at your natural and it's time to leave the game. If you are really worried about 2 rax the best is prob to just send out a drone to scout around a bit to check if there's any evil scv/marines close to your natural.
ok thanks so stay standard then ty. So 15h/15p or 15h/16. im sitting on 80% winrate vs terran and this build just annoys me hope I can defend it with little damage as posible
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I'm wondering myself which is the best defense for 2 rax, i usually go 15h 16p and pull 3 - 5 drones when i see a bunker beeing build with my overlord and pull almost all when i see a second scv or a marine to prevent the bunkers from going up and try to get a sourround on the marines once my zerglings spawn. Sometimes i crush it sometimes i loose horribly. I dont know if it is possible to hold it when the rax go up and the terran microes perfectly there is not enaugh information out there i feel despite it beeing such an old build.
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I've seen Jaedong plant like 3-4 Creep Tumors or cast a dozen Infested Terrans in less than a second. How does he do it?
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My ZvT was always 2-2 roach-hydra timings, but now tanks are buffed, so more people build tanks and they are really good against that kind of build. Does anyone have another ZvT build they'd recommend that ends with a 3-base timing attack? I'm in platinum BTW.
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On November 18 2013 04:35 ReMinD_ wrote:
I've seen Jaedong plant like 3-4 Creep Tumors or cast a dozen Infested Terrans in less than a second. How does he do it?
You have to add an alternate hotkey for what is basically left-click. It is called "Choose AI or target" or something like that. You can make "C" an alternate and then select all of your tumors, hold "C" and wave the mouse around. There's also a way to edit a text file to add a third hotkey but I don't remember the details for that.
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On November 18 2013 06:13 schwza wrote:
My ZvT was always 2-2 roach-hydra timings, but now tanks are buffed, so more people build tanks and they are really good against that kind of build. Does anyone have another ZvT build they'd recommend that ends with a 3-base timing attack? I'm in platinum BTW.
I recommend just playing the game out, zerg seems to be doing fine as long as you can get your own +3 +3, so just go muta ling bane, untill +3 +3
You could also just go for a roach hydra viper timing if you want an all in build.
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On November 13 2013 04:26 VurnHat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 02:22 iggym wrote:On November 13 2013 00:54 VurnHat wrote:On November 13 2013 00:25 loginn wrote:On November 12 2013 23:57 VurnHat wrote:
I am so bad at scouting ZvZ ling floods. I am a gold league zerg and attempt to do a standard ling muta opening each game. Here is my BO
send 1st overlord to scout natural and natural mineral line
2nd overlord outside front of their natural for spotting ling flood
15 - Pool
16 - Hatch
15 - Queen
17 - Zergling Pair for scouting all-in (how many drones/gas)
21 - Overlord
21 - Queen
Speed at 100 gas
Spine and Bane Nest at 50 gas
Lair at 100 gas
Just before the lair is when the lings flood into my natural.
I feel like pretty much everyone gets speed/bane nest but the difficult thing for me to scout is whether or not he is transferring drones to his natural expansion or actually building them planning on going to lair. I feel like I COULD get two overlords near his hatcheries and bounce them in or out, but should a ling scout be enough if I just run the two lings I build at 17 supply around his main? That is what I typically do and they seem to die after a while but they can either start droning then or flood lings?
Do you think my issue is more about my scouting or possibly my defense? I get a spine and am able to wall off my ramp with my queens, but I never know when I can go back to injecting with my queens and each time I do go back to injecting I seem to get re-all-in'd with zerglings or out droned and behind.
Tips for getting to lair every game and not being too far behind? Your build order seems relatively fine although I think it's better to get an OV before you get the queen cause it seems you get supply blocked a little. It's also a game reading/scouting issue. Scout as soon as your lings are out and keep vision of the front of his natural. Usually they'll hide their lings in their base so when speed is 3/4 done for you, just send another ling in his base and try to get up in his main. You should have a few lings laying around when your bane nest finishes, just use 50 gas to make banes if you're unsure of what's coming. 15 - Pool 16 - Hatch 16 - Gas15 - Overlord15 - Queen 17 - Two pairs of Lings. Scout with one and keep one at homeQueen at nat ASAP 24 - Overlord Speed at 100 gas Spine and Bane Nest at 50 gas (If unsure make two banes with 1st 50 gas)Lair at 100 gas Bold is what I added/changed in your build The build order for a ling flood usually has a slightly delayed natural compared to 15 Pool 16 Hatch so you can just check that to get an idea of what's going on. Also don't be afraid to make around 6 banes as soon as you see what's coming and try to channel the flood by putting down evo chambers. A telling sign is if the other Z pushes your OV at his nat with his queen. If you defend this without losing too many drones (5 or less), you're ahead. More info : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=428262 Thanks for the advice, the evo chamber idea is great for channeling the lings for my bane connections. I have avoided baneling defense for this reason but it seems the only way to defend without having absurdly good larva spotting. Of course I build a 15 overlord after my 16 hatchery, so the build is the exact same as yours but I prefer to get my 2nd queen asap rather than waiting for my natural expansion to pop. I'm thinking that was a miscommunication because I've never seen anyone ever wait to build their 2nd queen at their natural unless they already have lings in their base and need the minerals for lings. I hope I'm right on that. I'm just going to build an extra pair of lings to leave at home and build two banes and two evo's so that any ling flood has to run through a thin "door" with lings there to catch and block while the spine hits and then if he doesn't pull back BOOM bane hit gg. Thanks. Watch the mini-map, you definitely shouldn't be throwing down evos blind on a muta build or you're going to start getting run over in midgame. You have your two "oh shit" banelings, and everything else is reactionary based on counting drones or what runs under your overlords. Yeah I think I understand. I will have 2 blind banelings made as soon as my bane nest pops, a spine and a ramp to queen block for immediate defense. If I miscount drones and I'm surprised to find a large pack of lings running out the front door then I'll funnel them with evo chambers on the top of my 'big natural' (get it?) ramp. I seem to make scouting mistakes like not seeing the lings with my frist overlord and them running along the side of the map. I know I should probably focus more on spotting with that first overlord infront of his natural but what kind of drone counting to you really explicitly do. Do you really count every drone? Do you 'eyeball' the mineral line quick and say its about 1-2 drones from 16 saturation? What sort of stuff do you read into because I seem to have a hard time with the trick of moving drones from the main to the expo and me not noticing, thinking he is droning his natural, then BAM speedlings up my ramp! Is the only answer having two overlords (one near each hatch) that continually pops in and out of the bases? I feel like this is more APM I might not be able to handle as well as less overlords along the path between bases so I wont see the lings as easily. I am leaning toward not doing this, focusing on having more overlords between the bases so that I can defend with my emergency banes and reactionary evo chambers like I should be able to anyway. If i do the hover near the bases with two overlords thing I feel like I'll lose alot to macro mistakes or mistakes not seeing the lings coming as easily as if I just had more overlords along the path between us.
You only need an overlord watching the natural minerals, and if you hang back it is rare for you to get chased out that early. There is a big difference (4+ drones) between a ling flood and droning up. Watch replays and you can see what each case looks like. It is fairly obvious.
If there is any doubt, just keep watching the minimap and make 4 banes. Any suspicion means you should have a spine, both queens at the ramp, and 4 banes (spread out one by one; don't pair up unless he is adding banes as well). Note that you should always have double queens for a ramp block, no matter what (you seem to know this, but I want to be clear). The moment you see lots of lings moving out, build only lings. Your immediate defensive goal will be to get off your next pair of injects without allowing lings into your main so that you can keep up with his production. You will always want to have at least one bane, so as soon as each new round of lings pops, make it a habit to morph some into banes.
General tactics are to keep banes protected from single lings using the spine, use banes if he commits his lings, and hold queens at ramp to prevent a runby.
Watch his natural minerals and his exit ramp to figure out whether he is building lings or drones. Ling flood is a high-larvae strat that can quickly transition out by pumping 8-10 drones instead of the next round of lings, and you want to be ready to counterattack if you see it (he will need to start a spine, which won't be done in time, and if he doesn't have a spine or banes, he can easily die to your counter).
I don't think the evo chambers are a good investment. If lings get in, they will get in off any gap in the wall, unless you do a triple evo wall with a queen to plug the gap and a spine behind it all. Which is more expensive and more risky anyway.
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On November 18 2013 03:37 zerge wrote:
I'm wondering myself which is the best defense for 2 rax, i usually go 15h 16p and pull 3 - 5 drones when i see a bunker beeing build with my overlord and pull almost all when i see a second scv or a marine to prevent the bunkers from going up and try to get a sourround on the marines once my zerglings spawn. Sometimes i crush it sometimes i loose horribly. I dont know if it is possible to hold it when the rax go up and the terran microes perfectly there is not enaugh information out there i feel despite it beeing such an old build.
I usually pull six drones, two go after the scv (one on each side of bunker), four zone out marines. If you are having trouble, I'd pull another two to go after marines, and have three chase the marine and three attempt to flank (i.e. continue moving and block marine retreat path). Flanking is important because drones stop when they attack and have a longer attack animation than marines, so they get kited pretty badly.
You are building a single queen from your natural, yes? The queen is very important to help deny scvs from building too close, and will help snipe marines that you are trying to zone out.
Make sure that any spine that you start is built BEHIND the natural hatchery. Otherwise, marines will pop in and out of bunker to kill it. You can reroot it once it's done, build it behind the hatch.
Also remember to stutter-step your lings to match the marine stutter-step. If you can match his start-stop pattern, then the marines die almost as fast as they are standing still.
If possible, move the overlord that was floating over your natural to a safe spot that overlooks the rax. This way, you can immediately begin droning when you see him float away.
I don't have any 2 rax replays from this patch to show you, unfortunately.
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EPT
