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On November 18 2013 00:18 roym899 wrote:
So which composition should i aim for in ZvP lategame? I'm losing pretty much 100% of my ZvPs going longer then 20 minutes and only I wins are the ones where Protoss goes for an all-in and leave afterwards.
Happens quite often that they just take a 3rd after 20 minuts and slowly get their deathball and just roll my army. I've tried swarm hosts with very little success and I always feel like I'm depending on the protoss not to push out to early.
Muta switches into Baserace works some times but I just don't like this playstyle. I wanna fight the deathball headsup but I just don't know which composition works.
Roach/Hydra/Viper I mess up the engagements completely and get crushed as well. (also i'm not too sure how I should use my vipers) Or If I should get corrupters vs the colossi.
(I'm mid diamond, but ex master, so my mechanics should still be master level, I just couldn't keep up with HotS since the release so I'm lacking strategy knowledge)
Things will vary based on the deathball composition. I am operating under the assumption that this is a colo-heavy deathball (or else your SH stuff would roll him), and that his support is VR plus misc gateway units (most common deathball, in my experience).
Proper viper usage will win you the game. You need to be aware of what part of his army beats yours, and abduct that. Usually this means colossi (when you have hydra, SH). After you abduct for awhile and he forces an engagement, drop a single blinding cloud in the middle of his deathball and engage. If he backs up to get out of the cloud (every toss seems to), quickly abduct anything you can and don't chase. Time is on your side because of abduct.
Bring uprooted spores with your army to consume (viper energy). Walking batteries that root fast if you need detection. Also don't be afraid to walk your queens forward to transfuse vipers (or even spore crawlers). Well-supported vipers are the bane of every protoss.
Also roaches are bad lategame. Trade them out via runby/counterattack as soon as you max. I'm mentioning this because you apparently have tried a roach-hydra-viper combo, which should instead be hydra-SH-viper. That could be part of your problem.
If he has templar, use your locusts to screen for your vipers. Don't be afraid to abduct templar, it's much better than losing multiple vipers. Since you are wol masters, I will say that this is no harder than playing infestor-BL against blink stalker and colossi, though of course it will take some effort to learn the new dynamic.
You also need to plan what your remax will be. The choices I usually use are lings (need lots of larvae stockpiled, but fast reinforcement and good against stalker-heavy armies), roaches (decent reinforcement speed and good against zealots and archons, ok against colo or if you thinned him out enough), or the Jaedong style of mutas (slow, very gas heavy so you have to have been planning this for awhile, need air upgrades to last against the stalker counter-warp; but beats robo-heavy armies). Hydras also work great if you still have tanking units left over (if not, hydras will die to mass zealot warps). I assume you know all this, but I want to emphasize how important it is to counter his remaining stuff when you remax, because if you don't synch your abduct strategy with your remax, you will almost never break the deathball.
And as a reminder, you'd better be maxed on all ground upgrades.
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Does anybody still use a 6-queen build? With the recent resurgance of Banshees in ZvT and third bases getting slightly harder to aquire, I think I might like having the two extra early queens.
Who could help me :D?
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I think Catz is testing out a 5(?) or 6 queen build against Terran now. He does open gasless even against reapers, which makes the initial reapers a little more of a headache. However he takes gas at 5:00(i think), and still have ling speed in time for the hellion reaper push. I personally like it though, since using only lings to defend against hellion and reapers is risky without good control, and having the extra queen(s) does help in establishing creep spread.
He streams quite frequently so you could just go watch some of his games
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On November 19 2013 22:06 NoNonsense wrote:I think Catz is testing out a 5(?) or 6 queen build against Terran now. He does open gasless even against reapers, which makes the initial reapers a little more of a headache. However he takes gas at 5:00(i think), and still have ling speed in time for the hellion reaper push. I personally like it though, since using only lings to defend against hellion and reapers is risky without good control, and having the extra queen(s) does help in establishing creep spread. He streams quite frequently so you could just go watch some of his games
I always have delayed queen 4 in favor of Ling Speed if the opponent opens Reaper, so I guess I could still do that.
If I try getting 5/6 queens off of my regular opener, I have no money when the inject cycle pops, which delays either my expansion or my drone production....
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I think the best way to play with early speed is 3 queens and 2 more after your expand, you will be able to get lots of drones and have some creepspread as well as 5 queens at 7:30. It works out really nice since you can saturate 2 base minerals and a second gas after your expand. After you got your 2 extra queens, 2 evos and some defensive lings you can then rally to your 3rd base. Here is my zvt build for expample:
17 - Overlord
17 - Extractor
18 - 2 x Queen
2 x Zerglings
25 - Overlord
28 - Metabolic Boost
Queen
30 - Overlord
37 - Pneumatized Carapace
40 - Overlord
44 - Hatchery (6:00)
Extractor
48 - Overlord
2 x Queen
2 x Evolution Chamber
Overlord
50 - 60 Zerglings
+1/+1
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What's the best all in to beat terrans? No way I'm playing a 30 minute SH game every other ZvT
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On November 20 2013 02:32 Aocowns wrote:
What's the best all in to beat terrans? No way I'm playing a 30 minute SH game every other ZvT
SH? is he meching? If he isn't meching SH are just bad.. they sure can work but you put yourself at a disadvantage.
I'd say go for Life's 5 hatch mass ling bane attack. It is by no means an all-in and it should hit around 10:30 with many lings and base off 3 bases+2 macro hatcheries. In order to execute it you get double gas at 5:30 and stick with it until you saturated all your bases. After that you reserch 2-2, bane speed and attack while you get your fourth, you spread creep and tech to mutas. The goal is to delay his push and make him do it in worse conditions. Very often you will do totally crippling damage.
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On November 20 2013 03:48 Karpfen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 02:32 Aocowns wrote:
What's the best all in to beat terrans? No way I'm playing a 30 minute SH game every other ZvT SH? is he meching? If he isn't meching SH are just bad.. they sure can work but you put yourself at a disadvantage. I'd say go for Life's 5 hatch mass ling bane attack. It is by no means an all-in and it should hit around 10:30 with many lings and base off 3 bases+2 macro hatcheries. In order to execute it you get double gas at 5:30 and stick with it until you saturated all your bases. After that you reserch 2-2, bane speed and attack while you get your fourth, you spread creep and tech to mutas. The goal is to delay his push and make him do it in worse conditions. Very often you will do totally crippling damage.
Yeah, that's what I meant, assuming he is meching. Problem is, as far as I know there aren't any consistent all ins that can be done as a reaction to scouting mech. Sure I'll try this out though. Do you have any VODs I can use as reference? Have a hard time believing it's actually optimal to invest 600 mins in macro hatches that early, + taking 4th while going for that mineral heavy of an attack
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On November 20 2013 03:48 Karpfen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 02:32 Aocowns wrote:
What's the best all in to beat terrans? No way I'm playing a 30 minute SH game every other ZvT SH? is he meching? If he isn't meching SH are just bad.. they sure can work but you put yourself at a disadvantage. I'd say go for Life's 5 hatch mass ling bane attack. It is by no means an all-in and it should hit around 10:30 with many lings and base off 3 bases+2 macro hatcheries. In order to execute it you get double gas at 5:30 and stick with it until you saturated all your bases. After that you reserch 2-2, bane speed and attack while you get your fourth, you spread creep and tech to mutas. The goal is to delay his push and make him do it in worse conditions. Very often you will do totally crippling damage.
Wait. Is this vs mech or bio this strat?
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[ZvZ] What is the proper response to a 10 pool when going 14pool/16 hatch on a two player map?
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On November 20 2013 04:34 b0ub0u wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 03:48 Karpfen wrote:On November 20 2013 02:32 Aocowns wrote:
What's the best all in to beat terrans? No way I'm playing a 30 minute SH game every other ZvT SH? is he meching? If he isn't meching SH are just bad.. they sure can work but you put yourself at a disadvantage. I'd say go for Life's 5 hatch mass ling bane attack. It is by no means an all-in and it should hit around 10:30 with many lings and base off 3 bases+2 macro hatcheries. In order to execute it you get double gas at 5:30 and stick with it until you saturated all your bases. After that you reserch 2-2, bane speed and attack while you get your fourth, you spread creep and tech to mutas. The goal is to delay his push and make him do it in worse conditions. Very often you will do totally crippling damage. Wait. Is this vs mech or bio this strat?
Because it wasn't specified, I thought you were using SH vs bio (thank god you are not). This works vs bio and it's probably bad vs mech.
Against mech I strongly suggest roach drops. Standard opening only with ranged upgrades. Usual banshee defense (meching players love their banshees usually). You poke the third with some roaches while dropping the main with the overlords. Even if he isn't very tank heavy it will be hard for him to defend properly. Mixing in nydus and tunneling claws is also very good. Killing the production is the important thing, that's why you aim the third before going in with the ovies.
Another option, which is still very good, is to go 2 base very fast muta into swarm hosts. Look for strelok vs TLO replays in WCS S1 (or 2?).
To scout if he is going mech fly in at 6 min or something like that.
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On November 20 2013 03:57 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 03:48 Karpfen wrote:On November 20 2013 02:32 Aocowns wrote:
What's the best all in to beat terrans? No way I'm playing a 30 minute SH game every other ZvT SH? is he meching? If he isn't meching SH are just bad.. they sure can work but you put yourself at a disadvantage. I'd say go for Life's 5 hatch mass ling bane attack. It is by no means an all-in and it should hit around 10:30 with many lings and base off 3 bases+2 macro hatcheries. In order to execute it you get double gas at 5:30 and stick with it until you saturated all your bases. After that you reserch 2-2, bane speed and attack while you get your fourth, you spread creep and tech to mutas. The goal is to delay his push and make him do it in worse conditions. Very often you will do totally crippling damage. Yeah, that's what I meant, assuming he is meching. Problem is, as far as I know there aren't any consistent all ins that can be done as a reaction to scouting mech. Sure I'll try this out though. Do you have any VODs I can use as reference? Have a hard time believing it's actually optimal to invest 600 mins in macro hatches that early, + taking 4th while going for that mineral heavy of an attack
Day9 did a daily about it. Google jjakji vs life or something like that and you'll be able to see it. macro hatcheries are absolutely needed because you'll just build lings and banes off 2 gases (adding 3-4 and 5-6 very late compared to standard). The fourth is taken around 10:30-11:00 when you push out. See it as a way to ensure you have creep spread against the usual timing push aswell as facing a delayed one.
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When a unit is being abducted, does it get hit before it lands or does it need to land/stand still?
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A unit being abducted behaves exactly the same as if it were standing still. Compare it to a Phoenix. It still attacks and moves at a really high speed to where it will 'land'.
Attack target as soon as it gets into range and hit as soon as they can.
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United States248 Posts
On November 20 2013 15:54 Carbonyl wrote:
[ZvZ] What is the proper response to a 10 pool when going 14pool/16 hatch on a two player map?
1) Identify what variation of 10p (gasless or gassed)
--Scout his natural and see when he places hatch (if its standard 6-8 ling > hatch then it will be started before 3 minutes)
--Count number of lings made (he can hide them after the initial 6-8 lings move out)
2) fashion correct response to his build variant
--if gasless defend with ling/drone and enjoy your eco lead
--if gas and you are unable to determine if baneling vs speedlings you may need to cancel hatchery and place spines in your main
Mostly it comes down to micro, although the 14p does have a nice advantage over 10p when microed correctly.
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cant seem to hold the mass zealot warp ins which seem to be reallyf requent over the last week, has somethign happened on some tourney stream which i havent seen?
check out these 2 replays for me to see what i mean, one of the games i was just way ahead in workers, army . .pretty much a head the whole game and lost? rep 2 it is. My only thoughts may be upgrades but i had i think more army to make it either null or barely anythign . . but i dont know, im playing on a low account im plat on my main.
rep1 - http://sc2replaystats.com/replay/153925
rep2 - http://sc2replaystats.com/replay/153902
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I havent played in months, what does standard Zvz look like nowadays
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On November 20 2013 15:54 Carbonyl wrote:
[ZvZ] What is the proper response to a 10 pool when going 14pool/16 hatch on a two player map?
I'd say banes before speed + massing queens when scouted, if unscouted, try to block your hatchery with 2 queens and.. go for masslings+speed?
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On November 26 2013 08:22 TheSubtleArt wrote:
I havent played in months, what does standard Zvz look like nowadays
Recently I've seen lots of ling bane muta.
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How the hell are you supposed to beat turtle mech now?
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EPT
