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On January 02 2013 11:50 althaz wrote:
It's certainly interesting, but I don't feel like it's anywhere near as good as the Parting build, because it's a 1-gate expansion which leaves you either blind and/or vulnerable. Possibly good for a tournament (especially if you know your opponent won't drone-scout), but as Zerg, I'm going to see no FFE, take gas immediately and tech to speed as fast as is humanly possible and build a few extra lings to hide my infestor or mutalisk tech on 2 bases. I'm going to kill your 4-sentry/1-zealot moveout and then I'm going to attempt a run-by. FFE is safer and you will normally be able to scout the third as it's much earlier.
If Zerg play blind this is obviously better, but if they play correctly I fell they'll have Mutas (and a spine wall) when you attack and they'll always have the spine wall because you don't build a stalker so you won't realistically be able to stop Zerg scouting you.
Where I really like this build though is in HotS. It'll be frickin' sweet! It'll be safer, stronger and it'll also be easier to scout.
Any protoss who gateway core expands will not do an allin unless he knows the z tries to take an early third base. That's what this build punishes.
If you go 2 base tech, I'm going to transition into a twilight council from this build. I will not execute this build unless you go for an early 3rd. If, for some reason, I am unable to scout the third (has never happened to me) then I will transition.
Furthermore, you're trying to metagame this build in your post. There are several gateway core builds out there, most popular of which is stargate. If you take the risk of going 2 base tech against phoenix play, you may as well type gg.
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On January 02 2013 11:50 althaz wrote:
It's certainly interesting, but I don't feel like it's anywhere near as good as the Parting build, because it's a 1-gate expansion which leaves you either blind and/or vulnerable. Possibly good for a tournament (especially if you know your opponent won't drone-scout), but as Zerg, I'm going to see no FFE, take gas immediately and tech to speed as fast as is humanly possible and build a few extra lings to hide my infestor or mutalisk tech on 2 bases. I'm going to kill your 4-sentry/1-zealot moveout and then I'm going to attempt a run-by. FFE is safer and you will normally be able to scout the third as it's much earlier.
If Zerg play blind this is obviously better, but if they play correctly I fell they'll have Mutas (and a spine wall) when you attack and they'll always have the spine wall because you don't build a stalker so you won't realistically be able to stop Zerg scouting you.
Where I really like this build though is in HotS. It'll be frickin' sweet! It'll be safer, stronger and it'll also be easier to scout.
The 1gate expand robo is probably more safe in hots but unfortunately swarm hosts kind of shut down the immortal all in pretty hard
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I kind of like this, especially since it avoids FFE, which puts the economies in unfavorable positions for P imo.
I know that the point of this build is to get gases sooner, but I'd be curious to see if an even more efficient version could come from a Forge-less FE. The minerals spent on Forge/Cannon at the front could lead to earlier gas/tech and the FE would mean faster probe production and earlier access to the 2 extra geysers.
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On January 02 2013 10:36 bertu wrote:
Ok, I played a bit with it today. If I follow the build and opp is going fast mutas, I can't win. He will defend the attack too easily. Getting the obs after the second immortal after scouting a late third didn't help much, as at that point I am not prepared to defend mutas anyway. Than I tried obs before the first immortal. This allowed be to abort the attack earlier and try to defend mutas, but I couldn't do it successfully. Might be fault though, my execution wasn't that great. I didn't test the impact of having a late obs on the efficiency of the build against non-muta play though.
I am currently leaning towards just not doing the all-in when there is no third or late third (scouting with the zealot/sentry poke), and proceed to get obs, twilight and gases, playing a standard game.
Please take this with a grain of salt, I am not a pro or even half-good, someone with better execution might have very different results.
The immortal sentry all-in is mainly designed to kill zergs who go fast three hatch before they can get proper saturation/tech to fend it off. If a zerg rushes for lair (i.e gets it before 7 minutes) it's fairly hard for an immortal sentry push to kill either a player with a decent amount infestors (your sentries go bye bye) or mutas (a lair before 7 minutes means the mutas can run to your base while you move out). That being said, I've tried this a couple times and it honestly works out kind of similar to opening FFE in my opinion, it is probably slightly weaker to fast 3 base mutalisk builds as well, as I'd imagine it's harder to get a huge amount of stalkers with only 2 gas even if you have 8 gateways.
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On January 02 2013 12:35 MateShade wrote:
The 1gate expand robo is probably more safe in hots but unfortunately swarm hosts kind of shut down the immortal all in pretty hard
Not true, they need infestation pit up to get swarm hosts, and swarm hosts are really expensive. I can't imagine how they would have enough swarm hosts to hold a huge all-in from protoss at 10 minutes. Of course if they 2 base it and just rush for lair and swarm hosts because they assume that the protoss will immortal sentry all-in, then they should be able to hold it.
On January 02 2013 11:50 althaz wrote:
It's certainly interesting, but I don't feel like it's anywhere near as good as the Parting build, because it's a 1-gate expansion which leaves you either blind and/or vulnerable. Possibly good for a tournament (especially if you know your opponent won't drone-scout), but as Zerg, I'm going to see no FFE, take gas immediately and tech to speed as fast as is humanly possible and build a few extra lings to hide my infestor or mutalisk tech on 2 bases. I'm going to kill your 4-sentry/1-zealot moveout and then I'm going to attempt a run-by. FFE is safer and you will normally be able to scout the third as it's much earlier.
If Zerg play blind this is obviously better, but if they play correctly I fell they'll have Mutas (and a spine wall) when you attack and they'll always have the spine wall because you don't build a stalker so you won't realistically be able to stop Zerg scouting you.
Where I really like this build though is in HotS. It'll be frickin' sweet! It'll be safer, stronger and it'll also be easier to scout.
Your zerg response is, I think, taking into account too much how much you know about the protoss. Taking gas and getting speed is reasonable, but think about it, you've scouted a protoss going gate core, you're not sure what he's doing yet, would you really be comfortable just mining 4 gas super early and teching with no information other than he's gone gate gore? And then you see the expand, you see him putting up a wall off, would you immediately think "MASS ZERGLING!" when he already has a wall and an expansion, which means that in all likelihood, if he just sits home, your zerglings are useless?
And as for killing the move out, that's also way too optimistic, why would you have 20 speedlings out for no reason prior to the moveout? It's much more likely that you make units AFTER he moves out because it looks like he's attacking, in which case, those units are wasted because he can hide behind a walled off natural with FFs and roach/ling will have a tough time breaking it down.
I agree about the part with HotS though, mothership core is so nice for scouting, and you can always send it out a little bit ahead of your immortal sentry moveout to make sure there's not like 30 speedlings waiting to surround you before you get a warp in cycle. And with it, the immortal sentry all-in will actually be less all-in too, because if you see yourself losing, rather than losing all your immortal and sentries because they're slow as shit, you can just mass recall, and still have a really good sentry count and expand completely safe against any roach-ling aggression since you have 3 immortals, high sentry count, and 8 gateways.
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i've been going 2 gate FE (nony's bo) into immo/sentry allin and its strikingly similar to this, dedicated early roach ling all-ins make it hard for 1 gate, no? on bigger maps i can see it working though.
its pretty much a very similar build, ill post reps. i add 5 gates to 7 before i push out, robo makes obs->3 immos, i move out with third immo almost done and 2 extra high energy sentries to your picture due to the earlier 2nd gate. i probe to 16+16+6 (plus a couple extra for pylons) so its very allin. i do chrono a wp as im moving out but still bring probes out so i can setup pylons earlier and get my first warp-in fast (since otherwise the mins pile up)
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The strenght of parting build is to overwhelm the zerg with constant forcefields. He uses zealots as a wall to defend his sentries and has gas income out of 4 geysers warp in sentries. Plus he can follow it up with another all in if he fails the first one.
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Pure zealot immortal can be kind of crappy unless you FF the entire Zerg first wave and he loses his momentum right then and there.
When the Toss reaches critical mass of stalkers its gg for Zerg if he doesn't wear you down, as your DPS behind forcefields is simply to great.
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On January 02 2013 15:37 ProfessionalNoob wrote:
Your zerg response is, I think, taking into account too much how much you know about the protoss. Taking gas and getting speed is reasonable, but think about it, you've scouted a protoss going gate core, you're not sure what he's doing yet, would you really be comfortable just mining 4 gas super early and teching with no information other than he's gone gate gore? And then you see the expand, you see him putting up a wall off, would you immediately think "MASS ZERGLING!" when he already has a wall and an expansion, which means that in all likelihood, if he just sits home, your zerglings are useless?
And as for killing the move out, that's also way too optimistic, why would you have 20 speedlings out for no reason prior to the moveout? It's much more likely that you make units AFTER he moves out because it looks like he's attacking, in which case, those units are wasted because he can hide behind a walled off natural with FFs and roach/ling will have a tough time breaking it down.
Thanks a lot for this part. It seems like a lot of people that don't know a lot about zerg tend to theorycraft with unrealistic scenarios which are only possible if the zerg knows what you're doing from the start and metagames you. This can be prevented by being capable of doing alternative builds that look the same.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
On January 02 2013 23:25 DarKcS wrote:
Pure zealot immortal can be kind of crappy unless you FF the entire Zerg first wave and he loses his momentum right then and there.
When the Toss reaches critical mass of stalkers its gg for Zerg if he doesn't wear you down, as your DPS behind forcefields is simply to great.
I disagree some, ~17.5 +1 zealots > 10 stalkers fighting pretty much anything, they are much better against lings, unthinkably better at breaking spine walls and more cost efficient against pure roach if you can get them into melee range (moving out with standard sentry immortal all in, 8 sentries and then going to 10-15 you can easily do this). They are also much better meatshields for your immortals and you can prism micro to make the zealot>stalker difference even greater because zerg cant hope to kill most of your ranged units or any of your immortals without running straight at you and face tanking your entire army of zealots.
PartinG goes very zealot heavy and it definitely seems a lot stronger to me with the correct timings.
If you dont warp any stalkers in the first couple of waves as well, you can approach and attack the zerg much more aggressively - you will fare much better in small trades or against any lings or flanks he could make, you dont need to blow nearly as many forcefields to protect your units crossing the map, etc.
I cant say specifically for this version of the all in (i personally believe the FFE one to be better overall for a lot of small reasons and dont want to write a few thousand word essay right now) but in my experience, leaving base before 9 minutes and warping pure sentry/zeal for the first 1 or 2 warpgate waves allows for a much stronger and faster push, allowing you to hit the zerg before 10:00 with room to spare on ohana, which are timings most people dont even come close to. The focus on zealots helps to push those timings down a lot.
Unless i make a mistake, im undefeated vs low-mid master zergs with it.
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Thanks for good guide 
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Thank you OP, this will help me get to master with random. I hate PvZ.
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sick guide jaypower, really nice to read
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EPT
