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On December 31 2012 10:50 Protossking wrote:
A big problem is that a lot of zergs when facing gate expands go for 2base tech, and any variation of 2base tech (muta, infestor) typically destroys an immortal sentry build. You will have mutas flying into your base before you're able to even move out. Also, Infestors only require 2 fungals to rid of the sentries where they can then flood lings.
In pvzs, I only open gateway expand
zergs do 2base tech less than 1 in 5 games vs me
/e.. then again, my gateway expand is different so maybe zergs respond differently
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You can probably get away with it because most zerg's probably don't practice against gateway openers very much.
Back when gateway openings were popular, you'd never get away with a gate->nexus->robo build. Waay too greedy.
Not a stable build, but certainly situationally strong!
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A couple things...
As a zerg, ive been taught that we need to scout 3rd/4th gas timings to tell if it's possible sentry/immortal or stargate or if its an attempt at a late game. So i feel w/o getting 3rd/4th gas this really messes up the zergs scouting, forcing kamikaze Overlord scouts. Which may or may not see this in time.
the other thing is how does this work vs ling/bling or baneling drops?
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Tried this a bunch of times.
Zergs tend to react to FFEs I do by just going for a roach all in. I can sim city with extra cannons and use FFs well and be fine, crank a couple immortals and usually push to win.
Against this, being unable to make cannons - or if I get the forge down, not having enough money/time to make them - and only having 1 gate just kills me. Even if they hit after my first immortal is out it's just not enough - I maybe have 6 FFs. Just died to that attack again and again.
When they don't pressure, however, even if they play greedy or safe, it tends to work, just like the regular one.
I did get molested by a roach/hydra/ling comp I didn't scout though, but that might just be a one off. It was like playing against Stephano's roach max, but with hydras. Just killed everything so fast.
Still, once I can refine it to be safer against roach all ins this should be better than the regular. I like having the extra energy for a GS if necessary.
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On December 31 2012 15:42 Complete wrote:
You can probably get away with it because most zerg's probably don't practice against gateway openers very much.
Back when gateway openings were popular, you'd never get away with a gate->nexus->robo build. Waay too greedy.
Not a stable build, but certainly situationally strong!
??
if you don't go gate-nexus robo ?
it's 35 nexus, not a 1 gate cybercore nexus or 1 gate nexus forge/cybercore
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i love people who think they can improve on the worlds bests' builds. Give me a break.
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On December 31 2012 17:30 Telsh wrote:
Give me a break.
User was banned for this post.
Careful what you wish for.
Also I commend you JayPower for your well done guide, specifically the great illustrative game-play pictures and graphs.
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Definitely an interesting build, love the earlier gas and the idea behind it. You obviously put a lot of time and research behind this , really nice.
The problem is that i feel your move out is too much of a gamble, you can't scout at all because you forced ling speed and you have no idea if he is droning or getting roaches or 20+ lings. 1 gate expand is not that safe as moving down the ramp to get the nexus can be incredibly hard if the zerg commits to some pressure.
The fact you are moving out with 1 zealot and 4 sentries blindly feels really unnatural to me ^^ , as losing those units kills your push entirely and puts you in an awful spot.
Another thing is the absence of the third and fourth gas. Past a certain timing, the zerg has to know it can only be a gateway based aggression and prepare accordingly. It gives your plan away really easily for a player that has a basic idea of timings.
I would say your build is indeed interesting, but unreliable as it has too many small holes that make it exploitable.
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Gj! Keep abusing protoss, faggot.
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On December 31 2012 13:28 mskaa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2012 12:12 Defenestrator wrote:
Looks solid if you can get a 1gate FE off without harass. Maybe this is a dumb question though, but vs 1gate FE as a Z player I will usually try to pressure with lings since I consider it to be a pretty greedy build with insufficient defense. Do you struggle vs this at all? Unless you go for gas before pool for super fast speedlings, i think a one gate expo is very safe. At least on all maps with a reasonable choke point at the natural. So if you dont go blindly for gas first against protoss, i would strongly recommend you just forget about ling pressure but focus on overlord scouting and ofc the standard 2-4 lings to see if he is poking with zealot stalker or going straight for sentries. If he goes sentry before he gets a stalker you should have a good 3 min window for massive droning. Stalker zealot poke you will probably need something like 8 lings + 1-2 queens to hold it away without any discomfort.
1 zeal + 2 sentries is just not enough to even stop 12-20 slowlings, I don't think (with speed obviously being researched since he opened 1base). Maybe this is the incorrect response, but typically if I see 1-base openers I'll lay off on droning until they expand since I'm not sure if they're going 4gate anyway and opt for more lings. Usually I hit right as they're setting up their wall at the nat, and really without a cannon it's extremely tough to safely expand, at least against opponents I've faced. I'm not sure of the precise timings for 1gate expo but 1zeal-2sentry expand used to be super unsafe in the earlier days of SC2 for sure.
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On December 31 2012 18:15 Defenestrator wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 31 2012 13:28 mskaa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2012 12:12 Defenestrator wrote:
Looks solid if you can get a 1gate FE off without harass. Maybe this is a dumb question though, but vs 1gate FE as a Z player I will usually try to pressure with lings since I consider it to be a pretty greedy build with insufficient defense. Do you struggle vs this at all? Unless you go for gas before pool for super fast speedlings, i think a one gate expo is very safe. At least on all maps with a reasonable choke point at the natural. So if you dont go blindly for gas first against protoss, i would strongly recommend you just forget about ling pressure but focus on overlord scouting and ofc the standard 2-4 lings to see if he is poking with zealot stalker or going straight for sentries. If he goes sentry before he gets a stalker you should have a good 3 min window for massive droning. Stalker zealot poke you will probably need something like 8 lings + 1-2 queens to hold it away without any discomfort. 1 zeal + 2 sentries is just not enough to even stop 12-20 slowlings, I don't think (with speed obviously being researched since he opened 1base). Maybe this is the incorrect response, but typically if I see 1-base openers I'll lay off on droning until they expand since I'm not sure if they're going 4gate anyway and opt for more lings. Usually I hit right as they're setting up their wall at the nat, and really without a cannon it's extremely tough to safely expand, at least against opponents I've faced. I'm not sure of the precise timings for 1gate expo but 1zeal-2sentry expand used to be super unsafe in the earlier days of SC2 for sure.
When i scout gate first i immediatly drop gas and stop droning. As soon as pool finishes i make a queen and then only lings. As soon as i gather 100 gas i pull drones off of gas and keep making lings while researching speed. This allin is extremely hard to hold for protosses, because the protoss can't make more cannons, and i'd argue that it's nearly impossible to hold the natural.
But this is just my 2 cent from a zerg point of view.
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Lololol such a nice build order. Tried it out and it seems good. And you move out same as parting and if couple seconds later you for sure have more units.
What i would encourage you to do it to split more adding the gates maybe 58 * 2 62*2 64*20 65*1 it seems like the minerals arent overflowing so much.
I what i really like is that the zerg has issues with scouting and is on his toes. Hess like whoaaaa and cant get uber macro.
Fun fact .... works in PvT :D and if you skip 3rd immortal and add earlier gates you arrive right before stim on close positions :D and with +1
I will try to maybe do a blink all in version of this or stargate 7-8 gate all in. Seems like when done properly youll either have stronger timings or more units. Or more energy in your case
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it is different but calling it better is a bit of an exaggeration tbh. it depends so much on the way the zerg reacts to certain things.
the move out is nice, but like u mentioned it can also result in you being surrounded by lings. it is unlikely but sitll possible and thus a risk.
also the lack of the 3rd and 4th gas is problematic in my eyes. yes, you move out with 8 sentries that may have a bit more energy and to that point your build is similiar to the one parting does(although roughly 30s slower), but during the push you can mostly build zealots and some stalker what is usually not what you want(except the zerg goes very ling heavy of course).
if you watch some games of parting doing it, he will sometimes go up to 15 sentries or something ridiculous like that. 8 sentries run out of energie very quickly if the zerg attacks from several sides and then u wont be able to build a lot of sentries with only 2 gases.
nevertheless nice build, but i just dont think it is better than the original one.
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I think that this would fare pretty well against mutas. Mutas on three bases will be too slow as usual, and if you don't scout a third, you can perhaps panic up a few cannons or stalkers and not do the push. I think it would work. In short, if you really try, you could probably counter this build to get a small edge, but if you're in a best of something series, and P does this and similar gateway expands with e.g. mass blink stalkers, then it would be difficiult to know as zerg.
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Three questions.
1) You dont mention Probe scouting, so I assume you dont. Wouldnt your opening be vulnerable to a hatch first into quick third, let alone a hatch hatch pool gas?
2) Wouldnt you be in trouble in case of early speedling pressure?
3) How does this fare against a Hatch block of your natural?
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On December 31 2012 20:39 SC2ShoWTimE wrote:
nevertheless nice build, but i just dont think it is better than the original one.
Just so you know, OP claimed that the push itself was better - and it is, considering the extra sentry energy - not the whole build. :p
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On December 31 2012 16:52 ThePlayer33 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2012 15:42 Complete wrote:
You can probably get away with it because most zerg's probably don't practice against gateway openers very much.
Back when gateway openings were popular, you'd never get away with a gate->nexus->robo build. Waay too greedy.
Not a stable build, but certainly situationally strong! ?? if you don't go gate-nexus robo ? it's 35 nexus, not a 1 gate cybercore nexus or 1 gate nexus forge/cybercore
Yes...the build is in the opening post that I responded to
O_o.
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On December 31 2012 18:15 Defenestrator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2012 13:28 mskaa wrote:On December 31 2012 12:12 Defenestrator wrote:
Looks solid if you can get a 1gate FE off without harass. Maybe this is a dumb question though, but vs 1gate FE as a Z player I will usually try to pressure with lings since I consider it to be a pretty greedy build with insufficient defense. Do you struggle vs this at all? Unless you go for gas before pool for super fast speedlings, i think a one gate expo is very safe. At least on all maps with a reasonable choke point at the natural. So if you dont go blindly for gas first against protoss, i would strongly recommend you just forget about ling pressure but focus on overlord scouting and ofc the standard 2-4 lings to see if he is poking with zealot stalker or going straight for sentries. If he goes sentry before he gets a stalker you should have a good 3 min window for massive droning. Stalker zealot poke you will probably need something like 8 lings + 1-2 queens to hold it away without any discomfort. 1 zeal + 2 sentries is just not enough to even stop 12-20 slowlings, I don't think (with speed obviously being researched since he opened 1base). Maybe this is the incorrect response, but typically if I see 1-base openers I'll lay off on droning until they expand since I'm not sure if they're going 4gate anyway and opt for more lings. Usually I hit right as they're setting up their wall at the nat, and really without a cannon it's extremely tough to safely expand, at least against opponents I've faced. I'm not sure of the precise timings for 1gate expo but 1zeal-2sentry expand used to be super unsafe in the earlier days of SC2 for sure.
I'm inclined to agree with defenestrator here. The old style of gateway expands had to choose gate-heavy (3 gate sentry expand) in order to survive vs the zerg 2 base tech onslaughts. Perhaps a current GM could chime in on this, but I'm pretty sure that gate-core openings would result in a completely different zerg reaction involving a speedling into speedroach attack if the Z is familiar with how to properly deal with 1 base opening instead of FE.
This is how I deal with it and I usually shut down Ps completely for trying to expand on just 1 gate. It was the greatest fear of P in the old style days and I think the same concepts should still apply. The only way you'll really get to survive even as long as getting your natural up is if you somehow have enough sentries. P started dropping gate-core opening for a reason. It really only works because a lot of Zs are either too new to remember it when it was popular and thusly the reactions for its variations, or they just build blindly the 3 hatch macro and mess up trying to transition.
Either that or perhaps the OP could provide replays where his Z opponent used the old aggression strategies and he holds with 1 zealot 2 sentry.
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Well done, Jaypower  interesting alterations
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[B]On January 01 2013 01:06 sCCrooked wrote:[/B
I'm inclined to agree with defenestrator here. The old style of gateway expands had to choose gate-heavy (3 gate sentry expand) in order to survive vs the zerg 2 base tech onslaughts. Perhaps a current GM could chime in on this, but I'm pretty sure that gate-core openings would result in a completely different zerg reaction involving a speedling into speedroach attack if the Z is familiar with how to properly deal with 1 base opening instead of FE.
This is how I deal with it and I usually shut down Ps completely for trying to expand on just 1 gate. It was the greatest fear of P in the old style days and I think the same concepts should still apply. The only way you'll really get to survive even as long as getting your natural up is if you somehow have enough sentries. P started dropping gate-core opening for a reason. It really only works because a lot of Zs are either too new to remember it when it was popular and thusly the reactions for its variations, or they just build blindly the 3 hatch macro and mess up trying to transition.
Either that or perhaps the OP could provide replays where his Z opponent used the old aggression strategies and he holds with 1 zealot 2 sentry.
The maps use to be much smaller (xel naga caverns, metalopolis). Any allin should be able to be scouted easily in the current map pool. You can throw down a sg, cannon up, add more gates, etc. Defense will be much easier than the old gateway expands because the maps are different.
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EPT
