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On December 31 2012 12:12 Defenestrator wrote:
Looks solid if you can get a 1gate FE off without harass. Maybe this is a dumb question though, but vs 1gate FE as a Z player I will usually try to pressure with lings since I consider it to be a pretty greedy build with insufficient defense. Do you struggle vs this at all?
Only if the zerg gets his gas before the overlord scouted my base, either blindly or reactively if he drone scouts.
On December 31 2012 15:42 Complete wrote:
You can probably get away with it because most zerg's probably don't practice against gateway openers very much.
Back when gateway openings were popular, you'd never get away with a gate->nexus->robo build. Waay too greedy.
Not a stable build, but certainly situationally strong!
This is definitly true and I completely agree. This could play out well for protosses in general if zergs tend to scout more in the early game.
On December 31 2012 16:28 Ryuhou)aS( wrote:
A couple things...
As a zerg, ive been taught that we need to scout 3rd/4th gas timings to tell if it's possible sentry/immortal or stargate or if its an attempt at a late game. So i feel w/o getting 3rd/4th gas this really messes up the zergs scouting, forcing kamikaze Overlord scouts. Which may or may not see this in time.
the other thing is how does this work vs ling/bling or baneling drops?
That tech would be way too late. The zerg's build would have to look similair to 2base muta/infestor, so lots of spines. Banelings on the ground force protoss to be more careful with forcefields though.
On December 31 2012 17:54 Leafboy wrote:
The problem is that i feel your move out is too much of a gamble, you can't scout at all because you forced ling speed and you have no idea if he is droning or getting roaches or 20+ lings. 1 gate expand is not that safe as moving down the ramp to get the nexus can be incredibly hard if the zerg commits to some pressure.
The fact you are moving out with 1 zealot and 4 sentries blindly feels really unnatural to me ^^ , as losing those units kills your push entirely and puts you in an awful spot.
Another thing is the absence of the third and fourth gas. Past a certain timing, the zerg has to know it can only be a gateway based aggression and prepare accordingly. It gives your plan away really easily for a player that has a basic idea of timings.
I would say your build is indeed interesting, but unreliable as it has too many small holes that make it exploitable.
I wouldn't say gamble since it's based on logic. The zerg shouldn't have 20 speedlings out if he sees you going for such a heavy sentry expand with a forge in the wall. You can get away from slow roaches quite easily with forcfields honestly.
Also you don't move down the ramp until you have 1 zealot/3 sentries and can form a full wall with those units at your natural.
I don't think the build is unriliable in the current meta-game. Most openers/builds that counter this build would need the zerg to blind-counter it and would be extremely bad vs any other build from the protoss. This is why I recommend having openers that look the same but play out differenly so it discourages the zerg for doing those things you mentioned.
On December 31 2012 21:20 ChoboDane wrote:
Three questions.
1) You dont mention Probe scouting, so I assume you dont. Wouldnt your opening be vulnerable to a hatch first into quick third, let alone a hatch hatch pool gas?
2) Wouldnt you be in trouble in case of early speedling pressure?
3) How does this fare against a Hatch block of your natural?
1. No I don't probe scout. I feel confident vs a zerg that goes for 3 hatches so that wouldn't be a problem. Even if the zerg goes hatch hatch pool gas, his gas would be too late to form any kind of threat and he still would be on 3hatch.
2. Dependant on the timing of the gas. In the current meta-game: no, vs 14/14: yes.
3. I never had that, so I wouldn't know. I guess 3gate expo or tech to something else. I'm really not sure.
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On December 31 2012 21:29 neptunusfisk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2012 20:39 SC2ShoWTimE wrote:
nevertheless nice build, but i just dont think it is better than the original one. Just so you know, OP claimed that the push itself was better - and it is, considering the extra sentry energy - not the whole build. :p
And like showtime just explained, the push isn't necessarily better either. It's very situational. You have more energy for the first engagement, but in the long run you will have less. A good zerg will never straight up attack the protoss as soon as he arrives on their side of the map. They will dance around and try buy as much time as possible. This is going to put a lot of pressure to try kill the zerg as soon as possible, perhaps forcing an unfavorable engagement. Another example of the build\push being weaker would be against a zerg that is playing ling\bling. You want to warp as many sentries as possible, as well as a few stalkers for DPS. Zealots are pretty useless in this situation. On two gas this simply won't be possible.
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So far only lost once with this build, to jookto going mutas. I wind up making mostly zealot sentry off my 8-gates unless they're going muta, so I never run out of FF really
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On January 01 2013 03:32 JayPower wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2012 21:20 ChoboDane wrote:
Three questions.
1) You dont mention Probe scouting, so I assume you dont. Wouldnt your opening be vulnerable to a hatch first into quick third, let alone a hatch hatch pool gas?
2) Wouldnt you be in trouble in case of early speedling pressure?
3) How does this fare against a Hatch block of your natural? 1. No I don't probe scout. I feel confident vs a zerg that goes for 3 hatches so that wouldn't be a problem. Even if the zerg goes hatch hatch pool gas, his gas would be too late to form any kind of threat and he still would be on 3hatch. 2. Dependant on the timing of the gas. In the current meta-game: no, vs 14/14: yes. 3. I never had that, so I wouldn't know. I guess 3gate expo or tech to something else. I'm really not sure.
1) Im pretty sure any decent Zerg would destroy you if they get to Hatch Hatch Pool against your opening, maybe you havent met one?
2) So you are in trouble vs 14/14?
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On January 01 2013 06:24 ChoboDane wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2013 03:32 JayPower wrote:On December 31 2012 21:20 ChoboDane wrote:
Three questions.
1) You dont mention Probe scouting, so I assume you dont. Wouldnt your opening be vulnerable to a hatch first into quick third, let alone a hatch hatch pool gas?
2) Wouldnt you be in trouble in case of early speedling pressure?
3) How does this fare against a Hatch block of your natural? 1. No I don't probe scout. I feel confident vs a zerg that goes for 3 hatches so that wouldn't be a problem. Even if the zerg goes hatch hatch pool gas, his gas would be too late to form any kind of threat and he still would be on 3hatch. 2. Dependant on the timing of the gas. In the current meta-game: no, vs 14/14: yes. 3. I never had that, so I wouldn't know. I guess 3gate expo or tech to something else. I'm really not sure. 1) Im pretty sure any decent Zerg would destroy you if they get to Hatch Hatch Pool against your opening, maybe you havent met one? 2) So you are in trouble vs 14/14?
Who on earth would go hatch/hatch/pool vs a 1base toss? =/ That's just asking to be 4gated/some other random 1base allin; counting on them not probe-scouting is far too risky for Z.
And yea vs any speedling opening it seems this would definitely get owned (the expansion part anyway), and I still think that this is unsafe vs a Z who goes for some ling aggression even with delayed speed if they're sitting in your nat.
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On January 01 2013 06:30 Defenestrator wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2013 06:24 ChoboDane wrote:On January 01 2013 03:32 JayPower wrote:On December 31 2012 21:20 ChoboDane wrote:
Three questions.
1) You dont mention Probe scouting, so I assume you dont. Wouldnt your opening be vulnerable to a hatch first into quick third, let alone a hatch hatch pool gas?
2) Wouldnt you be in trouble in case of early speedling pressure?
3) How does this fare against a Hatch block of your natural? 1. No I don't probe scout. I feel confident vs a zerg that goes for 3 hatches so that wouldn't be a problem. Even if the zerg goes hatch hatch pool gas, his gas would be too late to form any kind of threat and he still would be on 3hatch. 2. Dependant on the timing of the gas. In the current meta-game: no, vs 14/14: yes. 3. I never had that, so I wouldn't know. I guess 3gate expo or tech to something else. I'm really not sure. 1) Im pretty sure any decent Zerg would destroy you if they get to Hatch Hatch Pool against your opening, maybe you havent met one? 2) So you are in trouble vs 14/14? Who on earth would go hatch/hatch/pool vs a 1base toss? =/ That's just asking to be 4gated/some other random 1base allin; counting on them not probe-scouting is far too risky for Z. And yea vs any speedling opening it seems this would definitely get owned (the expansion part anyway), and I still think that this is unsafe vs a Z who goes for some ling aggression even with delayed speed if they're sitting in your nat.
Oh, just because Hatch Hatch Pool isnt common means it can be disregarded when discussing this build? Makes sense to me!
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United States248 Posts
Chobo, if a protoss scouts you going hatch hatch pool he can just reactively all in and win. Defenestrator isn't saying "it's uncommon so we don't need to discuss it", he's saying it's unreliable/unsafe to do that.
Going hatch hatch pool loses to FFE openings and gateway openings so I'm really not sure under what circumstances you would do this.
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On January 01 2013 08:02 Jowj wrote:
Chobo, if a protoss scouts you going hatch hatch pool he can just reactively all in and win. Defenestrator isn't saying "it's uncommon so we don't need to discuss it", he's saying it's unreliable/unsafe to do that.
Going hatch hatch pool loses to FFE openings and gateway openings so I'm really not sure under what circumstances you would do this.
All openings can be abused one way or another. You say hatch hatch pool loses to FFE openings and gateway openings and therefore its not relevant to bring up? I say this build loses to hatch hatch pool so therefor this build is not relevant?
What kind of logic is that.
Edit: What circumstances you would open Hatch Hatch Pool? I would if I were playing against PartinG if he didnt 9Pylon-scout. Kid loves his blind Nexus-first.
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On January 01 2013 08:43 ChoboDane wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2013 08:02 Jowj wrote:
Chobo, if a protoss scouts you going hatch hatch pool he can just reactively all in and win. Defenestrator isn't saying "it's uncommon so we don't need to discuss it", he's saying it's unreliable/unsafe to do that.
Going hatch hatch pool loses to FFE openings and gateway openings so I'm really not sure under what circumstances you would do this. All openings can be abused one way or another. You say hatch hatch pool loses to FFE openings and gateway openings and therefore its not relevant to bring up? I say this build loses to hatch hatch pool so therefor this build is not relevant? What kind of logic is that
I believe you just made a solid argument for yourself there.
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On January 01 2013 08:45 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2013 08:43 ChoboDane wrote:On January 01 2013 08:02 Jowj wrote:
Chobo, if a protoss scouts you going hatch hatch pool he can just reactively all in and win. Defenestrator isn't saying "it's uncommon so we don't need to discuss it", he's saying it's unreliable/unsafe to do that.
Going hatch hatch pool loses to FFE openings and gateway openings so I'm really not sure under what circumstances you would do this. All openings can be abused one way or another. You say hatch hatch pool loses to FFE openings and gateway openings and therefore its not relevant to bring up? I say this build loses to hatch hatch pool so therefor this build is not relevant? What kind of logic is that I believe you just made a solid argument for yourself there.
I believe that was my intention. Glad it worked.
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On January 01 2013 08:43 ChoboDane wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2013 08:02 Jowj wrote:
Chobo, if a protoss scouts you going hatch hatch pool he can just reactively all in and win. Defenestrator isn't saying "it's uncommon so we don't need to discuss it", he's saying it's unreliable/unsafe to do that.
Going hatch hatch pool loses to FFE openings and gateway openings so I'm really not sure under what circumstances you would do this. All openings can be abused one way or another. You say hatch hatch pool loses to FFE openings and gateway openings and therefore its not relevant to bring up? I say this build loses to hatch hatch pool so therefor this build is not relevant? What kind of logic is that. Edit: What circumstances you would open Hatch Hatch Pool? I would if I were playing against PartinG if he didnt 9Pylon-scout. Kid loves his blind Nexus-first.
Its not rock paper scissors. Both sides can always do some dumb allin or extra greedy opening. As far as delaying the pool so much, protoss can do some really simple allins from gate expands that don't have much to fear vs delayed tech.
Also worth mentioning is that you gain a lot of minerals by not 9 scouting or by not blocking your wall with a probe.
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On January 01 2013 09:22 mewo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2013 08:43 ChoboDane wrote:On January 01 2013 08:02 Jowj wrote:
Chobo, if a protoss scouts you going hatch hatch pool he can just reactively all in and win. Defenestrator isn't saying "it's uncommon so we don't need to discuss it", he's saying it's unreliable/unsafe to do that.
Going hatch hatch pool loses to FFE openings and gateway openings so I'm really not sure under what circumstances you would do this. All openings can be abused one way or another. You say hatch hatch pool loses to FFE openings and gateway openings and therefore its not relevant to bring up? I say this build loses to hatch hatch pool so therefor this build is not relevant? What kind of logic is that. Edit: What circumstances you would open Hatch Hatch Pool? I would if I were playing against PartinG if he didnt 9Pylon-scout. Kid loves his blind Nexus-first. Its not rock paper scissors. Both sides can always do some dumb allin or extra greedy opening. As far as delaying the pool so much, protoss can do some really simple allins from gate expands that don't have much to fear vs delayed tech. Also worth mentioning is that you gain a lot of minerals by not 9 scouting or by not blocking your wall with a probe.
Starcraft is rock paper scissors.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Although I'm not a P/Z player so I can't test this directly, I'd like to see more people trying this and giving results. I'm particularly interested to see if there's a way to achieve the same outcome while making the build appear more similar to Parting's opening. I really like the way this guide is written and the build was conceived, nice job.
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On December 31 2012 18:15 Defenestrator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2012 13:28 mskaa wrote:On December 31 2012 12:12 Defenestrator wrote:
Looks solid if you can get a 1gate FE off without harass. Maybe this is a dumb question though, but vs 1gate FE as a Z player I will usually try to pressure with lings since I consider it to be a pretty greedy build with insufficient defense. Do you struggle vs this at all? Unless you go for gas before pool for super fast speedlings, i think a one gate expo is very safe. At least on all maps with a reasonable choke point at the natural. So if you dont go blindly for gas first against protoss, i would strongly recommend you just forget about ling pressure but focus on overlord scouting and ofc the standard 2-4 lings to see if he is poking with zealot stalker or going straight for sentries. If he goes sentry before he gets a stalker you should have a good 3 min window for massive droning. Stalker zealot poke you will probably need something like 8 lings + 1-2 queens to hold it away without any discomfort. 1 zeal + 2 sentries is just not enough to even stop 12-20 slowlings, I don't think (with speed obviously being researched since he opened 1base). Maybe this is the incorrect response, but typically if I see 1-base openers I'll lay off on droning until they expand since I'm not sure if they're going 4gate anyway and opt for more lings. Usually I hit right as they're setting up their wall at the nat, and really without a cannon it's extremely tough to safely expand, at least against opponents I've faced. I'm not sure of the precise timings for 1gate expo but 1zeal-2sentry expand used to be super unsafe in the earlier days of SC2 for sure.
Im not gonna say you cant win a few games doing this. But if the protoss plays well he should defend that sorta thing on all maps with a small choke at natural. Once you have wall with zealot choke, 1 or 2 sentries you can hold off a serious amount of lings.. especially with a forge on the way or already done..
Basically the mass of early zerglings is an all-in, and not a good one since every protoss player who plays gate-core-expo prepares for it (and sometimes even prays the zerg will do it coz they know they can hold).
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mass ling builds worked vs gateway expands on metalopolis. The new maps where every natural has a tight easy choke to FF makes those ling builds bad today.
the 3gate sentry would never have been popular if the maps werent like metalopolis / xelnaga with impossible naturals
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Ok, I played a bit with it today. If I follow the build and opp is going fast mutas, I can't win. He will defend the attack too easily. Getting the obs after the second immortal after scouting a late third didn't help much, as at that point I am not prepared to defend mutas anyway. Than I tried obs before the first immortal. This allowed be to abort the attack earlier and try to defend mutas, but I couldn't do it successfully. Might be fault though, my execution wasn't that great. I didn't test the impact of having a late obs on the efficiency of the build against non-muta play though.
I am currently leaning towards just not doing the all-in when there is no third or late third (scouting with the zealot/sentry poke), and proceed to get obs, twilight and gases, playing a standard game.
Please take this with a grain of salt, I am not a pro or even half-good, someone with better execution might have very different results.
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Firstly in the perspective of a bo3 I think this is a great build.
In terms of something you can play solidly on ladder I'm not sure. It feels a bit risky, maybe you could walk the expansion with a gate but then 6 pool is an issue, so it's hard to say
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How about getting the other two gas just before you move out and put 2 probes in each gas? I think this will get you more gas (= more sentry reinforcement) and the few mineral loss will not hurt you too much when you reinforce with mostly sentries.
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Since you have gas income sooner for the sentries and move out with more forcefields, maybe you can fit hallucination into this build for scouting 2 base muta?
You can then even add a little more and since you technically have more forcefields than a standard immortal/sentry all-in, if you're confident in your forcefielding you could hallucinate a warp prism to feint a 3 sentry free win ramp drop to possibly get Zerg to pull some units back, maybe letting you move further into the map or forcefield off their frontal choke also resulting in a "freewin." (i've done this before with success PvZ to get Zerg to change which ramp they're defending, then you just FF the opposite ramp and freewin, just haven't tried it with your opening).
Just an idea since you already have more sentry energy to use, you can probably allocate at least 100 energy to an extra hallucination.
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It's certainly interesting, but I don't feel like it's anywhere near as good as the Parting build, because it's a 1-gate expansion which leaves you either blind and/or vulnerable. Possibly good for a tournament (especially if you know your opponent won't drone-scout), but as Zerg, I'm going to see no FFE, take gas immediately and tech to speed as fast as is humanly possible and build a few extra lings to hide my infestor or mutalisk tech on 2 bases. I'm going to kill your 4-sentry/1-zealot moveout and then I'm going to attempt a run-by. FFE is safer and you will normally be able to scout the third as it's much earlier.
If Zerg play blind this is obviously better, but if they play correctly I fell they'll have Mutas (and a spine wall) when you attack and they'll always have the spine wall because you don't build a stalker so you won't realistically be able to stop Zerg scouting you.
Where I really like this build though is in HotS. It'll be frickin' sweet! It'll be safer, stronger and it'll also be easier to scout.
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EPT
