EPTIs it worth it to simply put down the Stargate at the normal time knowing they'll see it or delay it till the Probe leaves (as I've done) but putting yourself behind significantly it seems.
[G] MVPTAiLS' Safe Stargate Build (PvP) - Page 3
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Xaeldaren
Ireland588 Posts
Is it worth it to simply put down the Stargate at the normal time knowing they'll see it or delay it till the Probe leaves (as I've done) but putting yourself behind significantly it seems. | ||
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RemarK
United States452 Posts
On November 15 2012 10:14 Xaeldaren wrote: One of the most frustrating things I've encountered with this build (and HerO's) is a Protoss who simply scouts around your main constantly, looking for tech, since you can't deny it with a Zealot and even doing so with a Sentry takes longer than I'd like. Is it worth it to simply put down the Stargate at the normal time knowing they'll see it or delay it till the Probe leaves (as I've done) but putting yourself behind significantly it seems. Generally, people leave your base shortly after seeing you Chrono your gateway as a Stalker could be coming out to chase your probes. A really good player will know the time difference for a Stalker / Sentry and stick around until they see your Sentry pop but regardless, your Sentry will pop about 20-30 gas sooner than you have the 150 gas needed to put down the Stargate. You should be able to chase his probe out fast enough with the Sentry to put the Stargate down, if he's really annoying he might sacrifice the probe in which case it's better to delay the Stargate until it's dead. I would just practice your micro with Zealot / Sentry to chase away probes - he shouldn't have an easy time going in circles in your base and as you get better at catching probes, you'll find it easier to get the Stargate down immediately without his scout being in your base. | ||
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brofestor
Singapore101 Posts
On November 15 2012 11:30 RemarK wrote: Generally, people leave your base shortly after seeing you Chrono your gateway as a Stalker could be coming out to chase your probes. A really good player will know the time difference for a Stalker / Sentry and stick around until they see your Sentry pop but regardless, your Sentry will pop about 20-30 gas sooner than you have the 150 gas needed to put down the Stargate. You should be able to chase his probe out fast enough with the Sentry to put the Stargate down, if he's really annoying he might sacrifice the probe in which case it's better to delay the Stargate until it's dead. I would just practice your micro with Zealot / Sentry to chase away probes - he shouldn't have an easy time going in circles in your base and as you get better at catching probes, you'll find it easier to get the Stargate down immediately without his scout being in your base. usual thing that they shld see coming out is a stalker but they may know you are going for this style of play (esp. if they are familar with this build as well) when they see a sentry instead...and its not that hard to micro your probe away from zealot until the sentry pops | ||
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RemarK
United States452 Posts
On November 15 2012 15:07 brofestor wrote: usual thing that they shld see coming out is a stalker but they may know you are going for this style of play (esp. if they are familar with this build as well) when they see a sentry instead...and its not that hard to micro your probe away from zealot until the sentry pops the good thing about that is zealot sentry zealot can go into DT expand, 4-gate DT bust, or turtle-y Robo play just as easily as it can go into stargate  they shouldn't be able to pin you on a Stargate build unless they either have outside information on you (i.e. have played you enough times to know that you like going Stargate) or they see the Stargate itself. | ||
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city42
1656 Posts
On November 14 2012 17:29 RemarK wrote: It can work - however, it's a little bit tougher. Because they aren't investing resources in a robo, they have faster 3rd / 4th gateways, more units, and sometimes even get a forge / cannons. I think going for that all-in against a non-robo expand wouldn't be the best choice just because you can enter a macro game very comfortably behind Phoenix harass (which is also more fun than all-in'ing). 4-gate blink obs and 4-gate DT busts are the hardest thing to hold off with this build. A standard 12-gate 4-gate is actually really easy to hold off, assuming you don't mess up forcefielding your ramp. The whole point of going zealot --> sentry --> zealot --> sentry is that it makes you 100% safe against 4-gate all-in and 3-gate pressures. Do you have replays of this build holding off the 5:20 warpin 3 gate? I'm having a hard time understanding how it's 100% safe. | ||
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bertu
Brazil871 Posts
On November 13 2012 20:14 moskonia wrote: Another cool thing to do if you ever reach a 2base vs 2base situation is to get the +2 range upgrade, that way you can actually kite him! (even though it takes exceptional micro), that could be a funny situation  This just happened at BWC : ) + Show Spoiler + | ||
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Mozzery
United States140 Posts
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thejamster
Canada71 Posts
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deadmau
960 Posts
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RemarK
United States452 Posts
On November 22 2012 16:41 deadmau wrote: I may be wrong, but I think Naniwa used this in Nasl, stomping OZ blink build. Anyone know for sure? I didn't see the games, but based on what I heard and the game description, he might have been using HerO's build - it's very similar but goes into 2 gates with a fast robotics behind the stargate. | ||
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Protossking
Australia103 Posts
The reason for this is that some people go into forge and defensive cannons at their expansion, and if they do you have to hit before the cannons get up. Anyways you might want to edit this into your OP (or not) or at least include how scouting a forge can change the situation. -Pezz | ||
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Bahamuth
134 Posts
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RemarK
United States452 Posts
On November 24 2012 20:40 Bahamuth wrote: So if +1 armor is better than +1 weapons, then why is everyone at Dreamhack and IEM getting +1 weapons all the time? Probably a combination of it being cheaper and them not knowing any better. Alternatively, if it's getting to the stage where +2 upgrades come into play, then obviously you need to get +1 just to unlock that next tier. I'm running a test right now, again, to indicate how little an impact it has in phoenix battles of any scale. 25 Phoenix vs 25 Phoenix, arranged identically and a-moved: Round 1: +1 attack phoenix wins against 0-0 phoenix with 1 phoenix, 9hp surviving (one shot away from death) Round 2: +1 attack wins with 4 phoenix left over Round 3: 0-0 phoenix win with 5 left over. Round 4: 0-0 phoenix win with 2 left over. Round 5: +1 attack phoenix win with 4 left over. As you can see, it's fairly random who wins, and by what margin. Mathematically, there is no advantage to having +1 air attack versus unupgraded phoenix. It takes the exact same number of shots to kill a Phoenix with or without +1 air attack. +1 armor will give you an edge against an un-upgraded Phoenix. Hence, why I recommend getting it first in this guide as it's the only thing that makes an immediate difference. +1 attack is nice to have against someone who has the armor upgrade, once you have your own armor upgrade done though (I think anyways). | ||
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RemarK
United States452 Posts
On November 23 2012 22:17 Protossking wrote: I would recommend from experience in stargate mirror that you should just go and kill him straight away if he's going for a nexus, he shouldn't be able to hold, it doesn't matter that you're +1 armour hasnt finished. The reason for this is that some people go into forge and defensive cannons at their expansion, and if they do you have to hit before the cannons get up. Anyways you might want to edit this into your OP (or not) or at least include how scouting a forge can change the situation. -Pezz Good point, I'll add a warning that you need to watch out for forge / cannons to defend a natural expansion and that it can be better to hit faster. | ||
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Eifer
United States138 Posts
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bertu
Brazil871 Posts
On November 25 2012 11:24 Eifer wrote: But following the fight between phoenixes, +1 air attack phoenixes would fare much better against the ground units remaining? But then if you get +1 air attack you might not win the air battle as convincingly so you'd have less phoenixes to attack the ground units with. Tricky call I don't think that's much of a factor, honestly, getting a bit more damage on the units you are lifting isn't very relevant. The advantages of +1 attack is that it leads to +2 and nullifies +1 armor by costing less money (according to math provided somewhere in this thread, I haven't checked), but if I were to guess why pros always get it is just that this haven't been explored enough since phoenix battles are so weird. Another hypothesis is that +1 attack makes a difference when guardian shield in involved, and pros just assume that this will likely be the case in a game. | ||
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MysteryHours
United States168 Posts
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RemarK
United States452 Posts
On November 27 2012 14:14 MysteryHours wrote: How should I react if my first Phoenix sees 3 gates and a Robo with no expansion? I think you can just pump Phoenix constantly, and play reactively. If he eventually expands with lots of stalker sentry, you can just expand yourself and start teching to robo and enter a standard game. If he stays on 1-base for a really long time, you can expand and start adding on more sentries and either a forge + 4th gateway or robo + 4th gateway to secure your expansion. You want to keep tabs on what units he's making, but if you make Phoenix constantly, he won't be able to defend his main base without leaving lots of stalkers behind, so you either kill all his probes and defend his all-in or you crush his army because he has lots of stalkers in his main base. | ||
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coldSnaH
50 Posts
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RemarK
United States452 Posts
On December 02 2012 06:25 coldSnaH wrote: Question, if you find proxy gate with gas scout what is correct response? Different people have different strategies - its usually either add 2nd gateway and pull some probes to make up for his slightly faster Zealots or get a Forge and use cannons to secure yourself while teching to core. The first can be risky against people with competent micro, the second is risky against people who transition into a 2-gate stalker rush if there are any holes in your cannon coverage. | ||
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