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On November 13 2012 17:10 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
The +1 air is actually a really awesome Idea, the only reason I stopped going stargate was because of phoenix mirror, but I should have an advantage now. Thanks RemarK!
Are you kidding me? -_-'
Also RemarK you forgot to change the +1 wep in BO skeleton to +1 def, while in the mid-game reaction it is changed.
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On November 13 2012 17:24 moskonia wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 17:10 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
The +1 air is actually a really awesome Idea, the only reason I stopped going stargate was because of phoenix mirror, but I should have an advantage now. Thanks RemarK! Are you kidding me? -_-' Also RemarK you forgot to change the +1 wep in BO skeleton to +1 def, while in the mid-game reaction it is changed.
Good catch - fixed. I also added this discussion in a condensed form into the top of the tips section of the guide. Basically, Phoenix numbers are the greatest priority in a mirror, and an upgrade won't make as huge of a difference as having an extra Phoenix.
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This is alot like the build I am using atm, although I've never come to think about +1 armor. Great tip! Also, for all saying this is hard countered by blink obs, it isn't : ). Forcefield the ramp and he is forced to blink into your main if he wants to get something done. Stalkers are sooo bad in straight up combat vs zealots and sentries. Also, this means he cannot jump foreward to snipe your immortals as he normally can.
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On November 13 2012 17:24 moskonia wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 17:10 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
The +1 air is actually a really awesome Idea, the only reason I stopped going stargate was because of phoenix mirror, but I should have an advantage now. Thanks RemarK! Are you kidding me? -_-' Also RemarK you forgot to change the +1 wep in BO skeleton to +1 def, while in the mid-game reaction it is changed.
What?
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On November 13 2012 18:56 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 17:24 moskonia wrote:On November 13 2012 17:10 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
The +1 air is actually a really awesome Idea, the only reason I stopped going stargate was because of phoenix mirror, but I should have an advantage now. Thanks RemarK! Are you kidding me? -_-' Also RemarK you forgot to change the +1 wep in BO skeleton to +1 def, while in the mid-game reaction it is changed. What?
He's pointing out that beyond the OP you didn't read the discussion at all lol.
Particularly the parts where we discuss how completely useless +1 wep is(unless you have a rather massive amount of phoenix) because you won't kill your opponent's phoenix fleet in any less hits.
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Why air armor and not attack vs other stargate openings?
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On November 13 2012 19:55 ShatterZer0 wrote:
Why air armor and not attack vs other stargate openings?
=.=; Come on, read the thread guys. It's because, as pointed out by moskonia, +1 attack makes no difference in phoenix vs phoenix battles(at least below large numbers such as 10+) Where +1 armor gives a slight difference.
His post on the matter: + Show Spoiler +On November 13 2012 13:34 moskonia wrote:
Haven't read the full guide yet, but just glad i have a place to bring out a fact I tested and seems to pass by you and a LOT of people, +1 air wep upgrade does NOT help in phoenix mirror, it does not make it any less shots to kill one, unlike the +1 armor which increases shots taken by 1 (wep is of course useful if opponent got def).
Math: the phoenix has 120/60 hp and 0 base armor, it does 5(+5 to light)x2, +1 wep makes it 6(+5 vs light)x2. A 0/0 phoenix kills another one with 9 strikes doing exactly 180 damage, a 1/0 phoenix does 176 damage with 8 shots, thus requiring 9 shots to actually kill another phoenix = upgrade is useless in phoenix mirror. (upgrade is very useful in phoenix vs other stuff though, so when going for many pheonixs it is good to get it, it makes killing colossuses and stalkers much faster).
Edit: grammer and spelling.
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On November 13 2012 16:34 RemarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 15:51 Kaitokid wrote:
While this build is safe against early pressure its bad vs early non robo expands and vs greedier phoenix builds. Which means its not "safe" in general. It's actually fine against any non-robo expand - you just expand yourself, your expo will be delayed but you're ahead in tech so it evens out. He'll have trouble defending two mineral lines with a FE until blink is done, and he can't move out to attack you until he can leave 3 stalkers at both mineral lines. And about greedier phoenix builds, the only way to have a greedier phoenix build is skipping the sentry and going for an immediate Stargate after the core finishes - which, if you read the guide fully, you'd see is mentioned as an option when you scout double gas by your opponent.
Why would the 4 gate attack not work against non-robo expands?
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On November 13 2012 20:03 Chylith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 19:55 ShatterZer0 wrote:
Why air armor and not attack vs other stargate openings? =.=; Come on, read the thread guys. It's because, as pointed out by moskonia, +1 attack makes no difference in phoenix vs phoenix battles(at least below large numbers such as 10+) Where +1 armor gives a slight difference. His post on the matter: + Show Spoiler +On November 13 2012 13:34 moskonia wrote:
Haven't read the full guide yet, but just glad i have a place to bring out a fact I tested and seems to pass by you and a LOT of people, +1 air wep upgrade does NOT help in phoenix mirror, it does not make it any less shots to kill one, unlike the +1 armor which increases shots taken by 1 (wep is of course useful if opponent got def).
Math: the phoenix has 120/60 hp and 0 base armor, it does 5(+5 to light)x2, +1 wep makes it 6(+5 vs light)x2. A 0/0 phoenix kills another one with 9 strikes doing exactly 180 damage, a 1/0 phoenix does 176 damage with 8 shots, thus requiring 9 shots to actually kill another phoenix = upgrade is useless in phoenix mirror. (upgrade is very useful in phoenix vs other stuff though, so when going for many pheonixs it is good to get it, it makes killing colossuses and stalkers much faster).
Edit: grammer and spelling.
Actually the +1 weapon changes absolutely nothing until there is +1 armor or shield, while shield or armor helps your pheonixs by increasing their number of hits taken before death from 9 to 10. But even so if you are behind on 2 pheonixs the upgrade would not help to get the tide of battle to your favor. The OP said that with his build you have enough gas while building non-stop phoenix to get +1, in which case if you both have the same amount of the phoenixs, you will win due to the upgrade, and that is why it is good to get it, even though it only has a small affect.
Another cool thing to do if you ever reach a 2base vs 2base situation is to get the +2 range upgrade, that way you can actually kite him! (even though it takes exceptional micro), that could be a funny situation 
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On November 13 2012 20:03 Chylith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 19:55 ShatterZer0 wrote:
Why air armor and not attack vs other stargate openings? =.=; Come on, read the thread guys. It's because, as pointed out by moskonia, +1 attack makes no difference in phoenix vs phoenix battles(at least below large numbers such as 10+) Where +1 armor gives a slight difference. His post on the matter: + Show Spoiler +On November 13 2012 13:34 moskonia wrote:
Haven't read the full guide yet, but just glad i have a place to bring out a fact I tested and seems to pass by you and a LOT of people, +1 air wep upgrade does NOT help in phoenix mirror, it does not make it any less shots to kill one, unlike the +1 armor which increases shots taken by 1 (wep is of course useful if opponent got def).
Math: the phoenix has 120/60 hp and 0 base armor, it does 5(+5 to light)x2, +1 wep makes it 6(+5 vs light)x2. A 0/0 phoenix kills another one with 9 strikes doing exactly 180 damage, a 1/0 phoenix does 176 damage with 8 shots, thus requiring 9 shots to actually kill another phoenix = upgrade is useless in phoenix mirror. (upgrade is very useful in phoenix vs other stuff though, so when going for many pheonixs it is good to get it, it makes killing colossuses and stalkers much faster).
Edit: grammer and spelling.
The build never really mentions whether you were to be offensive or defensive with your phoenix, so I assumed the latter. +1 attack phoenixes under GS allow for better piecemeal engagements, which should be the normal scenario vs offensive phoenixes, as opposed to full on pitched battles. Also, +1 attack phoenixes allow you to take on +1 armor phoenixes under GS much more evenly than +1 armor vs +1 armor under GS.
Later on, if a transition back to air with VR's vs colossi ever comes up I would think having +1 air attack would be much stronger than +1 air armor.
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On November 13 2012 20:50 ShatterZer0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 20:03 Chylith wrote:On November 13 2012 19:55 ShatterZer0 wrote:
Why air armor and not attack vs other stargate openings? =.=; Come on, read the thread guys. It's because, as pointed out by moskonia, +1 attack makes no difference in phoenix vs phoenix battles(at least below large numbers such as 10+) Where +1 armor gives a slight difference. His post on the matter: + Show Spoiler +On November 13 2012 13:34 moskonia wrote:
Haven't read the full guide yet, but just glad i have a place to bring out a fact I tested and seems to pass by you and a LOT of people, +1 air wep upgrade does NOT help in phoenix mirror, it does not make it any less shots to kill one, unlike the +1 armor which increases shots taken by 1 (wep is of course useful if opponent got def).
Math: the phoenix has 120/60 hp and 0 base armor, it does 5(+5 to light)x2, +1 wep makes it 6(+5 vs light)x2. A 0/0 phoenix kills another one with 9 strikes doing exactly 180 damage, a 1/0 phoenix does 176 damage with 8 shots, thus requiring 9 shots to actually kill another phoenix = upgrade is useless in phoenix mirror. (upgrade is very useful in phoenix vs other stuff though, so when going for many pheonixs it is good to get it, it makes killing colossuses and stalkers much faster).
Edit: grammer and spelling. The build never really mentions whether you were to be offensive or defensive with your phoenix, so I assumed the latter. +1 attack phoenixes under GS allow for better piecemeal engagements, which should be the normal scenario vs offensive phoenixes, as opposed to full on pitched battles. Also, +1 attack phoenixes allow you to take on +1 armor phoenixes under GS much more evenly than +1 armor vs +1 armor under GS. Later on, if a transition back to air with VR's vs colossi ever comes up I would think having +1 air attack would be much stronger than +1 air armor.
I think most of the time you will not fight with any side having a GS up, since if you and your opponent are smart you will never attack the opponent's phoenixs when they have GS and neither will he to you, therefore the normal fighting will occur at the edge of the base or in mid map, with no GS up.
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On November 13 2012 20:56 moskonia wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 20:50 ShatterZer0 wrote:On November 13 2012 20:03 Chylith wrote:On November 13 2012 19:55 ShatterZer0 wrote:
Why air armor and not attack vs other stargate openings? =.=; Come on, read the thread guys. It's because, as pointed out by moskonia, +1 attack makes no difference in phoenix vs phoenix battles(at least below large numbers such as 10+) Where +1 armor gives a slight difference. His post on the matter: + Show Spoiler +On November 13 2012 13:34 moskonia wrote:
Haven't read the full guide yet, but just glad i have a place to bring out a fact I tested and seems to pass by you and a LOT of people, +1 air wep upgrade does NOT help in phoenix mirror, it does not make it any less shots to kill one, unlike the +1 armor which increases shots taken by 1 (wep is of course useful if opponent got def).
Math: the phoenix has 120/60 hp and 0 base armor, it does 5(+5 to light)x2, +1 wep makes it 6(+5 vs light)x2. A 0/0 phoenix kills another one with 9 strikes doing exactly 180 damage, a 1/0 phoenix does 176 damage with 8 shots, thus requiring 9 shots to actually kill another phoenix = upgrade is useless in phoenix mirror. (upgrade is very useful in phoenix vs other stuff though, so when going for many pheonixs it is good to get it, it makes killing colossuses and stalkers much faster).
Edit: grammer and spelling. The build never really mentions whether you were to be offensive or defensive with your phoenix, so I assumed the latter. +1 attack phoenixes under GS allow for better piecemeal engagements, which should be the normal scenario vs offensive phoenixes, as opposed to full on pitched battles. Also, +1 attack phoenixes allow you to take on +1 armor phoenixes under GS much more evenly than +1 armor vs +1 armor under GS. Later on, if a transition back to air with VR's vs colossi ever comes up I would think having +1 air attack would be much stronger than +1 air armor. I think most of the time you will not fight with any side having a GS up, since if you and your opponent are smart you will never attack the opponent's phoenixs when they have GS and neither will he to you, therefore the normal fighting will occur at the edge of the base or in mid map, with no GS up.
The rule of thumb in Phoenix vs Phoenix is to never really engage unless you have a distinct advantage... which is basically never unless you have GS up. At the edge of your/your opponent's base you and your opponent should pop GS if an engagement really seems likely.
Moreover, attack and armor eventually scales towards attack in both main battles and utility later on. I can see why you would want +1 armor in the short term, but in the defensive long run? I'd want attack hands down.
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On November 13 2012 21:11 ShatterZer0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 20:56 moskonia wrote:On November 13 2012 20:50 ShatterZer0 wrote:On November 13 2012 20:03 Chylith wrote:On November 13 2012 19:55 ShatterZer0 wrote:
Why air armor and not attack vs other stargate openings? =.=; Come on, read the thread guys. It's because, as pointed out by moskonia, +1 attack makes no difference in phoenix vs phoenix battles(at least below large numbers such as 10+) Where +1 armor gives a slight difference. His post on the matter: + Show Spoiler +On November 13 2012 13:34 moskonia wrote:
Haven't read the full guide yet, but just glad i have a place to bring out a fact I tested and seems to pass by you and a LOT of people, +1 air wep upgrade does NOT help in phoenix mirror, it does not make it any less shots to kill one, unlike the +1 armor which increases shots taken by 1 (wep is of course useful if opponent got def).
Math: the phoenix has 120/60 hp and 0 base armor, it does 5(+5 to light)x2, +1 wep makes it 6(+5 vs light)x2. A 0/0 phoenix kills another one with 9 strikes doing exactly 180 damage, a 1/0 phoenix does 176 damage with 8 shots, thus requiring 9 shots to actually kill another phoenix = upgrade is useless in phoenix mirror. (upgrade is very useful in phoenix vs other stuff though, so when going for many pheonixs it is good to get it, it makes killing colossuses and stalkers much faster).
Edit: grammer and spelling. The build never really mentions whether you were to be offensive or defensive with your phoenix, so I assumed the latter. +1 attack phoenixes under GS allow for better piecemeal engagements, which should be the normal scenario vs offensive phoenixes, as opposed to full on pitched battles. Also, +1 attack phoenixes allow you to take on +1 armor phoenixes under GS much more evenly than +1 armor vs +1 armor under GS. Later on, if a transition back to air with VR's vs colossi ever comes up I would think having +1 air attack would be much stronger than +1 air armor. I think most of the time you will not fight with any side having a GS up, since if you and your opponent are smart you will never attack the opponent's phoenixs when they have GS and neither will he to you, therefore the normal fighting will occur at the edge of the base or in mid map, with no GS up. The rule of thumb in Phoenix vs Phoenix is to never really engage unless you have a distinct advantage... which is basically never unless you have GS up. At the edge of your/your opponent's base you and your opponent should pop GS if an engagement really seems likely. Moreover, attack and armor eventually scales towards attack in both main battles and utility later on. I can see why you would want +1 armor in the short term, but in the defensive long run? I'd want attack hands down.
I do admit to not have too much experience with phoenix wars (I prefer robo openings), only played it a few times in a relevant time, so I cannot really say about engaging, but I do not think you want to have more upgrades then the 1st +1 armor, since continuing with phoenix past the earlygame is pretty bad imo.
As soon as you can afford to have HT's the switch to it will be brutal, since if you are fast enough you can kill phoenixs with feedback and before they lift the HT's they become archons that can not be lifted. Who cares that you have 3/3 air vs my 0/1 air when half your army dies in a flash of feedbacks.
The only reason to get +1 wep is for macro, since unless they have +1 armor it is useless and you have to wait for +2 atk (which needs fleet beacon -> will happen much later in the game), which imo is just not worth it since you have better things to spend your money on right now (like +1 armor).
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Italy12246 Posts
In phoenix mirrors you are kinda forced into massing phoenixes actually. If you cut them you open up a huge timing window where your next tech hasn't paid off yet and the other guy can just come in, kill all your phoenixes and then lift everthing else and finish you off.
Phoenix mirrors are wierd as shit though, it's like bw zvz in a way.
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Russian Federation216 Posts
Tails? I tho this is Squirtle BO
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I guess the hardest thing with this build would be to hold proper 4 gate or blink obs all in. Especially the 4 gate where sentry count timings are strict.
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Remark for blue soon? Also, more stream with commentary please, gogo
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Another great guide. Yay for remark!
-Cross
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United States4883 Posts
On November 13 2012 13:07 RemarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 13:01 SC2John wrote:
Much like HerO's stargate opener that was posted a few months back...??
I just feel like I've already read all of this. It's actually quite different - HerO's build goes into 2-gates, with a blind robo, a blind second Sentry, and a noticeably later Stargate. Someone asked me on my blog what I thought the difference between the two builds were, here was my answer: "HerO's build feels and plays like a "robo build with phoenix" to me. With this build, the Phoenix are the emphasis and focal unit. Pros of HerO build: has an easier time with DTs due to blind robo, is also slightly more forgiving against early pressure due to blindly making two sentries always as well. Cons of HerO build: his build is REALLY safe - to the point where it can fall behind against greedy play or has a tough time against certain all-ins that cut corners. As an example of the drawbacks of the build you are using, if it were to face this build, it would have a later Stargate, greatly delayed air upgrades, and have invested 200-100 in a useless robotics facility. That said, both builds are good - the main advantage of this build is it's very refined and optimized for the fastest possible "safe" Stargate." Don't get me wrong, they're definitely similar - but they're not the same, and they play out quite differently.
After looking over this post, I understand what you mean now. Looking at this build, I feel like it's a little more unstable and dangerous, but transitions into a really stable defensive midgame whereas HerO's build is very solid and can also be weaponized into a 1-base (or 2-base) phoenix/immortal/zealot allin, which is nice.
Overall, I can see the use in both builds. I like them both, but I would probably stick with this one.
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On November 13 2012 20:07 Bahamuth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 16:34 RemarK wrote:On November 13 2012 15:51 Kaitokid wrote:
While this build is safe against early pressure its bad vs early non robo expands and vs greedier phoenix builds. Which means its not "safe" in general. It's actually fine against any non-robo expand - you just expand yourself, your expo will be delayed but you're ahead in tech so it evens out. He'll have trouble defending two mineral lines with a FE until blink is done, and he can't move out to attack you until he can leave 3 stalkers at both mineral lines. And about greedier phoenix builds, the only way to have a greedier phoenix build is skipping the sentry and going for an immediate Stargate after the core finishes - which, if you read the guide fully, you'd see is mentioned as an option when you scout double gas by your opponent. Why would the 4 gate attack not work against non-robo expands?
It can work - however, it's a little bit tougher. Because they aren't investing resources in a robo, they have faster 3rd / 4th gateways, more units, and sometimes even get a forge / cannons. I think going for that all-in against a non-robo expand wouldn't be the best choice just because you can enter a macro game very comfortably behind Phoenix harass (which is also more fun than all-in'ing).
On November 13 2012 23:41 Aelfric wrote:
I guess the hardest thing with this build would be to hold proper 4 gate or blink obs all in. Especially the 4 gate where sentry count timings are strict.
4-gate blink obs and 4-gate DT busts are the hardest thing to hold off with this build. A standard 12-gate 4-gate is actually really easy to hold off, assuming you don't mess up forcefielding your ramp. The whole point of going zealot --> sentry --> zealot --> sentry is that it makes you 100% safe against 4-gate all-in and 3-gate pressures.
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EPT
