|
*Note: I originally posted this to my blog here on TeamLiquid because I felt it wasn't very in-depth and I didn't want to commit to updating it. However, I have gotten strong feedback that I should post it over here, so that is what I am doing now! Onto the guide:
I frequently hear people complaining about how PvP is a coinflip, or a build-order dependant matchup. I could not disagree with this statement more - I think PvP is a fairly stable matchup where a smarter and better player will dominate a lesser-skilled opponent. Let's look at MVPTAiLS' phoenix play in PvP as an example of how to not flip coins and use an intelligent, well-rounded build to come out even or ahead vs other openers. Special thanks to Grandmaster Protoss CCalms for showing me this build and helping me with the various responses - you can check out his stream here to learn more cool builds from him.
Build order skeleton:
+ Show Spoiler +*Constant Probe production unless explicitly told to cut probes*
9 Pylon
Chrono probes twice
13 Gateway
14 Gas (scout the inside of your base and your natural with the probe that makes your assimilator on 2-player maps to prevent proxies, or start scouting bases on 4-player maps)
15 @25 Energy Chrono probes again
16 Pylon
18 Cybernetics core
18 Cut probes briefly
18 Gas
18 Zealot
20 Resume probe production
*Note: this probe cut is to be safe against 10-gate all-ins or 12-gate 4-gates on smaller maps like Ohana. On bigger maps, you can safely go 18 gas 19 Zealot without cutting probes.
21/22 Pylon before Cybercore finishes
@Cybercore 100% complete: start and Chrono warptech
@100 gas: queue up Sentry and chronoboost gateway.
Send Zealot to the top of your ramp. Optional: on 2-player maps, you can send this Zealot to the watchtower to spot for early pressure farther in advance.
@150 gas: build Stargate
@100% Sentry: start Zealot
30 Cut probes briefly
30 Add 2x Gateways
30 Pylon
30 Resume probe production
@100% Zealot: start second Sentry. This Sentry is not needed if you scout your opponent not being aggressive early on - otherwise, you will want it to defend against gateway pressures / all-ins. If you're not sure what your opponent is doing, or just like being as safe as possible, just make this Sentry every time.
@100% Stargate: start and Chrono a Phoenix - send it to your opponents base while dodging watch towers to scout his tech. Constantly produce and Chrono Phoenixes until you scout something causing you to do otherwise.
@100% Warptech: start +1 Air Armor upgrade (you can only do this if you didn't build the 2nd Sentry). There's a few reasons why we get +1 Air Armor blind: first, we can cancel it without any drawback if we scout something like Robo or Twilight play. Second, it gives us a good advantage in any Phoenix mirror by having a huge jump start on the air upgrades. Third, sometimes in a Phoenix mirror, players hide their phoenix - this is risky play because they aren't scouting but it gives them an advantage if they intercept your first Phoenix. Having a headstart on your air upgrades negates the advantage of a player who does this. Note: don't bother with this if you're in a lower league (Plat or below, let's say). It will probably stress you out and distract you from more important things, so you should only do this if you have the APM and attention span to remember to cancel it if necessary.
That covers the early game of this build order - now, we're going to look at how to react based on what we have scouted. Keep in mind, these reactions are basic guidelines, not absolute rules. There might be a few situations that are really weird and aren't covered here, or that require special consideration. You will have to learn to identify those on your own and discover responses that work for you.
Mid-game Reactions:
+ Show Spoiler +Scout Stargate: keep making and Chronoing Phoenix constantly, and let your +1 Air Armor upgrade finish. Phoenix mirror is all about maintaining the air advantage. Don't be too aggressive with your phoenix - if they have an extra Phoenix than you and intercept your fleet, you'll quickly discover that Phoenix cannot retreat from Phoenix once tagged. Your decision tree for this scenario is pretty straightforward: if he tries to expand, add a 4th Gateway and kill him when your +1 Armor is done with constant Phoenix production up till your attack. If he stays on 1-base, you can expand when your +1 Armor upgrade is 30 seconds away from finishing (the rush distance on most maps) and add a 4th Gateway after expanding. Note: Grandmaster Protoss Pezz brings up a good point about the dangers of delaying your attack too long against someone who expands in a Phoenix mirror: On November 23 2012 22:17 Protossking wrote: I would recommend from experience in stargate mirror that you should just go and kill him straight away if he's going for a nexus, he shouldn't be able to hold, it doesn't matter that you're +1 armour hasn't finished.
The reason for this is that some people go into forge and defensive cannons at their expansion, and if they do you have to hit before the cannons get up. If you scout a forge, definitely focus on attacking sooner rather than later - if they get cannons up, you'll have a tough time breaking their defense. After expanding, he will either all-in you (which you should be able to hold by outproducing him on 4-gates and with a superior armor upgrade on your Phoenix) or expand himself behind you. If he expands, you want to start mining at least 1 Gas at your natural quickly, and take the second geyser once you have the mineral income to support it as well. Add a 2nd Stargate, continue making Phoenix, and start +1 Air Attack. After your second Stargate has kicked in for a minute, you can start to get much more aggressive with your Phoenix (you should have numbers and / or upgrades on him) and start to take map control and dictate the pace of the game. Scout Robotics Bay: produce Phoenix constantly with Chrono and don't bother investing in immortals or a Robotics Facility. The benefit of skipping Robo is that you can invest some more resources in units and less in tech, and have a higher Phoenix count than you would have otherwise. He won't have the gas to produce both lots of Colossus and a high stalker count, so just focusing on Phoenix production gives you a very powerful and mobile fleet that he will never have an answer for. If he 1-bases, you should be able to hold with a Phoenix + gateway unit composition and better economy - try to use your Phoenix to kill probes in his main (prioritize probes on Gas) and then bring the Phoenix home to defend. If he expands, you can do the same and start teching to Robotics Facility and then Colossus yourself. At this point, the game becomes a standard Colossus vs Colossus PvP midgame except you have a handful of Phoenix and more map control, huzzah! Scout Twilight with Research, 3-4 gates, and no Robotics (aka Blink All-in): start a Robotics Facility and warp in 2 or more sentries immediately (you need them to start accumulating extra energy for forcefielding your ramp). After the robo is done, chronoboost Immortals constantly and forcefield your ramp when he is trying to attack you so that he never gets vision of the highground. Use your Phoenix to lift and kill probes while he is attacking to make his attack 100% committed. You can also use your Phoenix to snipe his probe that he sends on the map to build proxy pylons if he's not careful. Note: there is a variant of this build that gets a single Sentry early on and then researches Hallucination to make a Phoenix for high-ground vision. You can identify this build by spotting his Cybernetics core still researching after Warp tech is done. Against this variant, you should snipe the Sentry with your Phoenix and then use the same defense as before. It's fine to lose Phoenix to get the Sentry as long as he only has 1 - without that Sentry, his attack is delayed by over a minute (new Sentry needs to get 50 energy for Hallucinate) and is 2 stalkers weaker (replacement Sentry = 100 gas = 2 less Stalkers). One alternative defense against the hallucination variant is to make stalker zealot + phoenix constantly without making a robo, and use your phoenix to lift his stalkers and negate their ability to blink. If you go for this defense, make sure your phoenix are at home and positioned carefully to grab his stalkers. Scout Dark Shrine / a suspiciously Gas-free main base: start your Robotics facility immediately (ideally, build it in a corner or against other buildings so that you can wall it off with more buildings in an emergency), and position your units to make a wall at the ramp with Zealots in front and Sentries behind. It doesn't hurt to start making Pylons at the top of your ramp to create a partial wall as well (leave a Probe there so that you can complete the wall in an emergency). Keep making Phoenixes, and scout for hidden bases or anything else weird - if he attacks, make sure to park your Phoenix above his probe line and keep lifting them while he is defenseless. Your units out of the Robotics Facility should be Observer, Immortal, Immortal, to be safest against an Archon bust followup. Sometimes, people will go for an archon bust immediately with 4-gates and their first warp-in of DTs. Against that, you should make a tight wall off and warp in stalkers, and use your stalkers to focus the Archon down. Once the Archon is down, you can just forcefield your ramp against his zealots and stalkers. If he expands, use the Phoenix for harass while expanding and teching to Colossus and prepare to play against a Chargelot - Archon composition. If he doesn't expand, you can expand cautiously and simcity your natural with a wall of buildings to reduce the effectiveness of Chargelot - Archon. Don't tech to Colossus until you know it is safe to do so - if he attacks while your Robotics Bay is building, that's 200/200 less resources in your defense. Scout 4-gate: instead of starting a Phoenix when your Stargate finishes, start and Chronobost a 3rd Sentry out of your gateway. If he tries to send a probe up your ramp, use your 2 Zealots and 1st Sentry to snipe it. Before warp tech finishes, it is alright to let a single unit up your ramp at a time. Your Zealots, if positioned correctly, will form a wall that prevents him from running by into your main with whatever unit you let up, so you should be getting free kills. If you're not as confident in your micro / positioning and crisis control, just forcefield everything out to be safe. Your first Sentry has a forcefield when it pops, then your second Sentry will have a forcefield when it pops, and by the time the second Sentry's forcefield dissipates, your first Sentry will have another 50 energy ready to forcefield. When that 3rd forcefield expires, your 3rd Sentry will be out and warp tech is done. When the 4th Forcefield expires, you wil have completed a warp-in of 2 Zealots and a Sentry, giving you yet another forcefield (and after this FF, Sentry #2 has energy for another FF - at this point, you have basically infinite time and can warp-in more Sentries as needed or go into Phoenix production). You'll probably start floating minerals towards the end of this as you're making so many Sentries - you can offset this by adding a 4th Gateway (useful for making a counter-push with Phoenix and 4-gates on your opponent) or a Forge (useful for securing your natural expansion and getting upgrades in a macro game). Scout 2-gate Robo FE: add a 4th Gateway, make Phoenix up to 4, and go kill him. It's incredibly difficult to hold a proper Phoenix push with that build, especially on maps that don't have tiny ramps at the natural. On maps like Ohana / Shakuras that do have such ramps, be creative with your attack - start a lowground Pylon on the cliff next to their main base, fly your Phoenix by to give vision, and warp in 4 Zealots and send them to their mineral line. If they respond by sending in Zealots, just use your Phoenix to defend your own Zealots and keep wrecking havoc. If he sends his Stalkers too, then just fly to his natural, lift his Sentries, and attack with the rest of your army. Alright, that covers the reactions to all of the most common builds; let's wrap this post up by talking about a few tips and tricks that can help you out with this build.
Tips / Tricks / Thoughts:
+ Show Spoiler +- About the importance of Air upgrades: +1 Attack Phoenix take the same number of shots as 0-0 Phoenix to kill a Phoenix. Therefore, we get the Armor upgrade first in a Phoenix mirror and get the attack upgrade later, if the game progresses to a macro game. +1 Air Attack does make your Phoenix much more effective against other units and when you have large numbers of Phoenixes (10+) in a mirror. Therefore, it's usually worth getting in a Phoenix mirror eventually, or versus a non-Phoenix build where you are making 6 or more Phoenixes. Note: in a Phoenix mirror, numbers are the most important thing! Your main priority should be constant Chronoboosted Phoenix production, with air upgrades being the next priority.- In the early game, positioning your Zealots and Sentries properly on the ramp is very important. Your positioning should look something like this: Pictured: PvP Roman Tortoise, TAiLS styleThis keeps your Zealots safely out of his vision from the lowground, and lets your Sentry cast a force field to trap any units that try to peak up. - If you probe scout and see your opponent taking a 2nd gas, Australian Grandmaster Protoss AVANT.Pezz suggests skipping the first sentry, getting a second Zealot immediately, and building an incredibly fast Stargate with your first 150 gas after your Core finishes. After the second Zealot pops, then you add on your first Sentry and can optionally add on another one after that if you feel pressured. - In a Phoenix vs Phoenix engagement, it's crucial to keep your Phoenix inside a Sentry's guardian shield bubble regardless of whether you're attacking or defending. - In a Phoenix vs Phoenix mirror, one way to position your Phoenix is by your watch tower, with a Zealot underneath. If your opponent sneaks around and attacks your probe line, you can come back and cut him off. With good positioning, you'll kill all or most of his Phoenix. This also lets you transition into aggression much quicker, and if you see him sending units or probes out on the map with your vision, you can snipe them safely. - This is a very tight, Korean-style build. It relies on good control, active scouting, and smart reactions to be successful. Don't be frustrated if you lose a lot as you are figuring things out. The most common things I see people lose to with this build are 4-gates and blink all-ins because they miss their forcefields on the ramp. Play carefully! - The second most common way to lose with this build is being too greedy after expanding. A basic rule of thumb is that you should never tech faster than your opponent. Your Phoenix are a huge advantage in terms of scouting and map control, so don't blitz to Colossus until you see your opponent's Robotics Bay. This is one of the few builds and playstyles in PvP where it pays off to be "behind" your opponent. - In a macro game, some people have trouble deciding when to stop making Phoenix. It's situational, but a good rule of thumb is 4-6 Phoenix depending on how active you are with them (if you're really active, 6 Phoenix is good, otherwise, stick to 4). That amount of Phoenix is enough to be a constant harassment threat without being an overcommitment.
Replays + Analysis:
+ Show Spoiler +I'm on a new computer so I don't have many replays of myself doing this yet. I'll add more once I get the chance to ladder in the coming days. http://drop.sc/274643 Phoenix vs Robo FE against Clarity Gaming's SaroVati Here are a bunch of recent replays from CCalms (Depression) executing the build to give you all a benchmark of good execution and scouting / reactions: http://drop.sc/274640 Phoenix vs Phoenix against keydCapoch. http://drop.sc/274639 Phoenix vs Blink Obs into Macro game against ROOToD. http://drop.sc/274638 Phoenix vs Blink Obs against NrSRaNgeD http://drop.sc/274641 Phoenix vs Robo FE against WWStarNaN http://drop.sc/274649 Phoenix vs FE against Clarity Gaming's Shew. http://drop.sc/258800 Yoshi (CCalms' Korean account) vs Sage.
Final Notes:
A friendly reminder: this build is just one of many options that minimize coinflipping in PvP. Hopefully, it will help people discover a sense of stability and enjoyment for the PvP matchup that is often lacking, and it's definitely a fun play style that rewards multitasking and good fundamentals. Let me know how this build works for you and any thoughts or questions you have. Good luck and have fun!
About me:
+ Show Spoiler +My name is Matthew "RemarK" Kramer, a Grandmaster Protoss player on the NA server. I come from a competitive Halo background and have been playing Starcraft II since 2010, starting out in bronze. If you want to learn more about me or support me, you can check out my hub thread here on teamliquid and comment! I am also a streamer (click here for my stream) - you can follow me on Twitter (@remarkiwa) for updates about when I will be going live or to further interact with me. Thank you so much for reading and I hope this guide was helpful!
|
Nice Guide, I would make a list of maps on how to play this on, as a blink stalker build with observers hard counter this pretty hard on maps like Cloud kingdom or maps where it is easy to blink into the main base. The observer/blink naniwi style is not really a all in to, if he can do enough dmg with harrasment, he can take his natural expo, pretty hard to deal with, whats your advise vs that?? someone with good blink micro can end the game quickly .
|
On November 13 2012 12:45 Melaine wrote: Nice Guide, I would make a list of maps on how to play this on, as a blink stalker build with observers hard counter this pretty hard on maps like Cloud kingdom or maps where it is easy to blink into the main base.
Actually, it doesn't hard counter it at all - check the replay of Depression vs NrSRanGeD on Antiga for an example of how to defend such an attack.
http://drop.sc/274638
|
On November 13 2012 12:47 RemarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 12:45 Melaine wrote: Nice Guide, I would make a list of maps on how to play this on, as a blink stalker build with observers hard counter this pretty hard on maps like Cloud kingdom or maps where it is easy to blink into the main base. Actually, it doesn't hard counter it at all - check the replay of Depression vs NrSRanGeD on Antiga for an example of how to defend such an attack. http://drop.sc/274638
any other games of someone who has better blink micro control?? I don't see this build working vs someone doing it blink obs naniwi style with great control
|
United States8476 Posts
Glad you decided to post this in strategy
|
On November 13 2012 12:49 Melaine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 12:47 RemarK wrote:On November 13 2012 12:45 Melaine wrote: Nice Guide, I would make a list of maps on how to play this on, as a blink stalker build with observers hard counter this pretty hard on maps like Cloud kingdom or maps where it is easy to blink into the main base. Actually, it doesn't hard counter it at all - check the replay of Depression vs NrSRanGeD on Antiga for an example of how to defend such an attack. http://drop.sc/274638 any other games of someone who has better blink micro control?? I don't see this build working vs someone doing it blink obs naniwi style with great control
The pheonix harass will keep the blink player at his base or his probes will be gone. By the time the blink player has enough stalkers to defend his base as well as attack your main, you should have immortals out to fend of the attack.
|
United States4883 Posts
Much like HerO's stargate opener that was posted a few months back...??
I just feel like I've already read all of this.
|
On November 13 2012 13:01 SC2John wrote: Much like HerO's stargate opener that was posted a few months back...??
I just feel like I've already read all of this.
It's actually quite different - HerO's build goes into 2-gates, with a blind robo, a blind second Sentry, and a noticeably later Stargate. Someone asked me on my blog what I thought the difference between the two builds were, here was my answer:
"HerO's build feels and plays like a "robo build with phoenix" to me. With this build, the Phoenix are the emphasis and focal unit.
Pros of HerO build: has an easier time with DTs due to blind robo, is also slightly more forgiving against early pressure due to blindly making two sentries always as well.
Cons of HerO build: his build is REALLY safe - to the point where it can fall behind against greedy play or has a tough time against certain all-ins that cut corners.
As an example of the drawbacks of the build you are using, if it were to face this build, it would have a later Stargate, greatly delayed air upgrades, and have invested 200-100 in a useless robotics facility.
That said, both builds are good - the main advantage of this build is it's very refined and optimized for the fastest possible "safe" Stargate."
Don't get me wrong, they're definitely similar - but they're not the same, and they play out quite differently.
|
Seems like pvp is going to devolve again into a stale MU, where SG openers almost always needed. It might be time to give in and just play SG. This build seems like a good place to start.
|
Haven't read the full guide yet, but just glad i have a place to bring out a fact I tested and seems to pass by you and a LOT of people, +1 air wep upgrade does NOT help in phoenix mirror, it does not make it any less shots to kill one, unlike the +1 armor which increases shots taken by 1 (wep is of course useful if opponent got def).
Math: the phoenix has 120/60 hp and 0 base armor, it does 5(+5 to light)x2, +1 wep makes it 6(+5 vs light)x2. A 0/0 phoenix kills another one with 9 strikes doing exactly 180 damage, a 1/0 phoenix does 176 damage with 8 shots, thus requiring 9 shots to actually kill another phoenix = upgrade is useless in phoenix mirror. (upgrade is very useful in phoenix vs other stuff though, so when going for many pheonixs it is good to get it, it makes killing colossuses and stalkers much faster).
Edit: grammer and spelling.
|
On November 13 2012 13:34 moskonia wrote: Haven't read the full guide yet, but just glad i have a place to bring out a fact I tested and seems to pass by you and a LOT of people, +1 air upgrade does NOT help in phoenix mirror, it does not make it any less shots to kill one, unlike the +1 armor which increases shots taken by 1 (wep is of course useful if opponent got def).
Math: the phoenix has 120/60 hp and 0 base armor, it does 5(+5 to light)x2, +1 wep makes it 6(+5 vs light)x2. A 0/0 phoenix kills another one with 9 strikes doing exactly 180 damage, a 1/0 phoenix does 176 damage with 8 shots, thus requiring 9 shots to actually kill another phoenix - upgrade is useless in phoenix mirror. (upgrade is very useful in phoenix vs other stuff though, so when going for many pheonixs it is good to get it, it makers killing colossuses and stalkers much faster).
You can also consider guardian shield and if you continue to +2/3wep or not. edit: But you probably are right that you should start with armor
|
On November 13 2012 13:34 moskonia wrote: Haven't read the full guide yet, but just glad i have a place to bring out a fact I tested and seems to pass by you and a LOT of people, +1 air upgrade does NOT help in phoenix mirror, it does not make it any less shots to kill one, unlike the +1 armor which increases shots taken by 1 (wep is of course useful if opponent got def).
Math: the phoenix has 120/60 hp and 0 base armor, it does 5(+5 to light)x2, +1 wep makes it 6(+5 vs light)x2. A 0/0 phoenix kills another one with 9 strikes doing exactly 180 damage, a 1/0 phoenix does 176 damage with 8 shots, thus requiring 9 shots to actually kill another phoenix - upgrade is useless in phoenix mirror. (upgrade is very useful in phoenix vs other stuff though, so when going for many pheonixs it is good to get it, it makers killing colossuses and stalkers much faster).
Yeah, this came up in the previous discussion when I posted this - I was having trouble figuring out about Armor vs Attack vs nothing. Good to know that it doesn't make a difference in Phoenix vs Phoenix, as that is consistent with what my unit tester results were.
Do you know if the armor upgrade has any impact either? And what about +1 attack phoenix vs +1 armor phoenix? In the tests I ran, the +1 attack phoenixes beat +1 armor each time but I'm not sure how conclusive or meaningful that is.
|
Phoenix battles can be pretty random I think, since the whole attack while move thing, but if we talk purely on the stats (which should also be true for the game), 1/0 vs 0/1 are the same as 0/0 vs 0/0, and 1 def upgrade is stronger then 0/0.
Math: 1 atk vs 1 def upgrades, (note: if an attack hits both shield and armor, it is reduced by the combined armor of both), the atk phoenix deals 2 hits of 22 damage and then only 20 damage since the armor makes the upgrade go away, therefore dealing a total of 184 damage with 9 hits, the same as the 1 def phoenix. 0/0 phoenix attack 1 def phoenix, drains the shields in 3 hits and then deals 18 damage per shot to the armor. The non-upgraded phoenix does 168 damage with 9 total shots, needing a 10th one to finish the opponent.
Overall it does not matter a whole lot though, for example one game I had 1 armor vs 0/0, but he had more phoenixs, therefore he won. Upgrades are not worth it here until there are many many phoenixs on the map, and then a transition to HT's is much more favorable (theorycraft, I have not really tried one still )
|
On November 13 2012 14:15 moskonia wrote:Phoenix battles can be pretty random I think, since the whole attack while move thing, but if we talk purely on the stats (which should also be true for the game), 1/0 vs 0/1 are the same as 0/0 vs 0/0, and 1 def upgrade is stronger then 0/0. Math: 1 atk vs 1 def upgrades, (note: if an attack hits both shield and armor, it is reduced by the combined armor of both), the atk phoenix deals 2 hits of 22 damage and then only 20 damage since the armor makes the upgrade go away, therefore dealing a total of 184 damage with 9 hits, the same as the 1 def phoenix. 0/0 phoenix attack 1 def phoenix, drains the shields in 3 hits and then deals 18 damage per shot to the armor. The non-upgraded phoenix does 168 damage with 9 total shots, needing a 10th one to finish the opponent. Overall it does not matter a whole lot though, for example one game I had 1 armor vs 0/0, but he had more phoenixs, therefore he won. Upgrades are not worth it here until there are many many phoenixs on the map, and then a transition to HT's is much more favorable (theorycraft, I have not really tried one still ) They're not quite so random depending how(or if) you micro yours to target hurt ones and micro away your own hurt ones and if your opponent does the same. Ignoring micro though, yeah they can be kind of random. xD + Show Spoiler +Also, my understanding of upgrades in phoenix wars is more or less like what you just said: " he had more phoenixs, therefore he won." (+1 atk or armour is almost the cost of another phoenix and you're pretty strapped for resources, so even "if" upgrades were to help phoenix kill or survive better I don't think it would be worth it compared to having that one more phoenix)
|
On November 13 2012 14:38 Chylith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 14:15 moskonia wrote:Phoenix battles can be pretty random I think, since the whole attack while move thing, but if we talk purely on the stats (which should also be true for the game), 1/0 vs 0/1 are the same as 0/0 vs 0/0, and 1 def upgrade is stronger then 0/0. Math: 1 atk vs 1 def upgrades, (note: if an attack hits both shield and armor, it is reduced by the combined armor of both), the atk phoenix deals 2 hits of 22 damage and then only 20 damage since the armor makes the upgrade go away, therefore dealing a total of 184 damage with 9 hits, the same as the 1 def phoenix. 0/0 phoenix attack 1 def phoenix, drains the shields in 3 hits and then deals 18 damage per shot to the armor. The non-upgraded phoenix does 168 damage with 9 total shots, needing a 10th one to finish the opponent. Overall it does not matter a whole lot though, for example one game I had 1 armor vs 0/0, but he had more phoenixs, therefore he won. Upgrades are not worth it here until there are many many phoenixs on the map, and then a transition to HT's is much more favorable (theorycraft, I have not really tried one still ) They're not quite so random depending how(or if) you micro yours to target hurt ones and micro away your own hurt ones and if your opponent does the same. Ignoring micro though, yeah they can be kind of random. xD + Show Spoiler +Also, my understanding of upgrades in phoenix wars is more or less like what you just said: " he had more phoenixs, therefore he won." (+1 atk or armour is almost the cost of another phoenix and you're pretty strapped for resources, so even "if" upgrades were to help phoenix kill or survive better I don't think it would be worth it compared to having that one more phoenix)
Actually, you can make phoenix constantly with chrono while affording +1 attack. Otherwise, I agree with you thought, prioritizing phoenix numbers is the right mindset to have. It's rare, but sometimes the Phoenix vs Phoenix mirror gets to the point where both players have stabilized and taken expansions while making phoenix constantly, in which case adding on a second Stargate is the way to go I think. A templar transition, imo, leaves you vulnerable to timings where your opponent realizes what's going on before you have storm done or that many archons out. Also, if I see someone going into twilight tech in a macro Phoenix mirror, I would feel very comfortable just going into 2x robo Colossus.
|
While this build is safe against early pressure its bad vs early non robo expands and vs greedier phoenix builds. Which means its not "safe" in general.
|
On November 13 2012 15:07 RemarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 14:38 Chylith wrote:On November 13 2012 14:15 moskonia wrote:Phoenix battles can be pretty random I think, since the whole attack while move thing, but if we talk purely on the stats (which should also be true for the game), 1/0 vs 0/1 are the same as 0/0 vs 0/0, and 1 def upgrade is stronger then 0/0. Math: 1 atk vs 1 def upgrades, (note: if an attack hits both shield and armor, it is reduced by the combined armor of both), the atk phoenix deals 2 hits of 22 damage and then only 20 damage since the armor makes the upgrade go away, therefore dealing a total of 184 damage with 9 hits, the same as the 1 def phoenix. 0/0 phoenix attack 1 def phoenix, drains the shields in 3 hits and then deals 18 damage per shot to the armor. The non-upgraded phoenix does 168 damage with 9 total shots, needing a 10th one to finish the opponent. Overall it does not matter a whole lot though, for example one game I had 1 armor vs 0/0, but he had more phoenixs, therefore he won. Upgrades are not worth it here until there are many many phoenixs on the map, and then a transition to HT's is much more favorable (theorycraft, I have not really tried one still ) They're not quite so random depending how(or if) you micro yours to target hurt ones and micro away your own hurt ones and if your opponent does the same. Ignoring micro though, yeah they can be kind of random. xD + Show Spoiler +Also, my understanding of upgrades in phoenix wars is more or less like what you just said: " he had more phoenixs, therefore he won." (+1 atk or armour is almost the cost of another phoenix and you're pretty strapped for resources, so even "if" upgrades were to help phoenix kill or survive better I don't think it would be worth it compared to having that one more phoenix) Actually, you can make phoenix constantly with chrono while affording +1 attack. Otherwise, I agree with you thought, prioritizing phoenix numbers is the right mindset to have. It's rare, but sometimes the Phoenix vs Phoenix mirror gets to the point where both players have stabilized and taken expansions while making phoenix constantly, in which case adding on a second Stargate is the way to go I think. A templar transition, imo, leaves you vulnerable to timings where your opponent realizes what's going on before you have storm done or that many archons out. Also, if I see someone going into twilight tech in a macro Phoenix mirror, I would feel very comfortable just going into 2x robo Colossus. I think what he was suggesting with a templar transition was to get them for feedback on your opponents phoenix first since in a phoenix mirror it's a lot more likely for phoenix to build up a ton of energy, then turn them into archons after damaging or hopefully killing phoenix with feedback. That's just a guess, but I have seen it done once or twice before. That was with a blink opener vs phoenix opener though so take it for what you will I guess. lol
|
On November 13 2012 12:54 ian952 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 12:49 Melaine wrote:On November 13 2012 12:47 RemarK wrote:On November 13 2012 12:45 Melaine wrote: Nice Guide, I would make a list of maps on how to play this on, as a blink stalker build with observers hard counter this pretty hard on maps like Cloud kingdom or maps where it is easy to blink into the main base. Actually, it doesn't hard counter it at all - check the replay of Depression vs NrSRanGeD on Antiga for an example of how to defend such an attack. http://drop.sc/274638 any other games of someone who has better blink micro control?? I don't see this build working vs someone doing it blink obs naniwi style with great control The pheonix harass will keep the blink player at his base or his probes will be gone. By the time the blink player has enough stalkers to defend his base as well as attack your main, you should have immortals out to fend of the attack.
When i see phoenix i imediately cancel robo bay, use whatever stalkers i have to try and fend off phoenix until i can get forge and cannons up. In the meantime i put down a council and rush to DT tech. Once i have DTs i send 2 to harass oponent, if he has observer than i just pull them back start charge and +1 attack and do a zealot archon push when it feels confortable based on what i scout. If you invest all your gas into stalkers and blink you will get raped if your control is not impecable ( my 120-140 apm can't blink micro well enough while still macroing behind ).
|
On November 13 2012 15:51 Kaitokid wrote: While this build is safe against early pressure its bad vs early non robo expands and vs greedier phoenix builds. Which means its not "safe" in general.
It's actually fine against any non-robo expand - you just expand yourself, your expo will be delayed but you're ahead in tech so it evens out. He'll have trouble defending two mineral lines with a FE until blink is done, and he can't move out to attack you until he can leave 3 stalkers at both mineral lines.
And about greedier phoenix builds, the only way to have a greedier phoenix build is skipping the sentry and going for an immediate Stargate after the core finishes - which, if you read the guide fully, you'd see is mentioned as an option when you scout double gas by your opponent.
|
The +1 air is actually a really awesome Idea, the only reason I stopped going stargate was because of phoenix mirror, but I should have an advantage now. Thanks RemarK!
|
On November 13 2012 17:10 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: The +1 air is actually a really awesome Idea, the only reason I stopped going stargate was because of phoenix mirror, but I should have an advantage now. Thanks RemarK! Are you kidding me? -_-' Also RemarK you forgot to change the +1 wep in BO skeleton to +1 def, while in the mid-game reaction it is changed.
|
On November 13 2012 17:24 moskonia wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 17:10 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: The +1 air is actually a really awesome Idea, the only reason I stopped going stargate was because of phoenix mirror, but I should have an advantage now. Thanks RemarK! Are you kidding me? -_-' Also RemarK you forgot to change the +1 wep in BO skeleton to +1 def, while in the mid-game reaction it is changed.
Good catch - fixed. I also added this discussion in a condensed form into the top of the tips section of the guide. Basically, Phoenix numbers are the greatest priority in a mirror, and an upgrade won't make as huge of a difference as having an extra Phoenix.
|
This is alot like the build I am using atm, although I've never come to think about +1 armor. Great tip! Also, for all saying this is hard countered by blink obs, it isn't : ). Forcefield the ramp and he is forced to blink into your main if he wants to get something done. Stalkers are sooo bad in straight up combat vs zealots and sentries. Also, this means he cannot jump foreward to snipe your immortals as he normally can.
|
On November 13 2012 17:24 moskonia wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 17:10 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: The +1 air is actually a really awesome Idea, the only reason I stopped going stargate was because of phoenix mirror, but I should have an advantage now. Thanks RemarK! Are you kidding me? -_-' Also RemarK you forgot to change the +1 wep in BO skeleton to +1 def, while in the mid-game reaction it is changed. What?
|
On November 13 2012 18:56 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 17:24 moskonia wrote:On November 13 2012 17:10 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: The +1 air is actually a really awesome Idea, the only reason I stopped going stargate was because of phoenix mirror, but I should have an advantage now. Thanks RemarK! Are you kidding me? -_-' Also RemarK you forgot to change the +1 wep in BO skeleton to +1 def, while in the mid-game reaction it is changed. What? He's pointing out that beyond the OP you didn't read the discussion at all lol. Particularly the parts where we discuss how completely useless +1 wep is(unless you have a rather massive amount of phoenix) because you won't kill your opponent's phoenix fleet in any less hits.
|
Why air armor and not attack vs other stargate openings?
|
On November 13 2012 19:55 ShatterZer0 wrote: Why air armor and not attack vs other stargate openings? =.=; Come on, read the thread guys. It's because, as pointed out by moskonia, +1 attack makes no difference in phoenix vs phoenix battles(at least below large numbers such as 10+) Where +1 armor gives a slight difference. His post on the matter: + Show Spoiler +On November 13 2012 13:34 moskonia wrote: Haven't read the full guide yet, but just glad i have a place to bring out a fact I tested and seems to pass by you and a LOT of people, +1 air wep upgrade does NOT help in phoenix mirror, it does not make it any less shots to kill one, unlike the +1 armor which increases shots taken by 1 (wep is of course useful if opponent got def).
Math: the phoenix has 120/60 hp and 0 base armor, it does 5(+5 to light)x2, +1 wep makes it 6(+5 vs light)x2. A 0/0 phoenix kills another one with 9 strikes doing exactly 180 damage, a 1/0 phoenix does 176 damage with 8 shots, thus requiring 9 shots to actually kill another phoenix = upgrade is useless in phoenix mirror. (upgrade is very useful in phoenix vs other stuff though, so when going for many pheonixs it is good to get it, it makes killing colossuses and stalkers much faster).
Edit: grammer and spelling.
|
On November 13 2012 16:34 RemarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 15:51 Kaitokid wrote: While this build is safe against early pressure its bad vs early non robo expands and vs greedier phoenix builds. Which means its not "safe" in general. It's actually fine against any non-robo expand - you just expand yourself, your expo will be delayed but you're ahead in tech so it evens out. He'll have trouble defending two mineral lines with a FE until blink is done, and he can't move out to attack you until he can leave 3 stalkers at both mineral lines. And about greedier phoenix builds, the only way to have a greedier phoenix build is skipping the sentry and going for an immediate Stargate after the core finishes - which, if you read the guide fully, you'd see is mentioned as an option when you scout double gas by your opponent.
Why would the 4 gate attack not work against non-robo expands?
|
On November 13 2012 20:03 Chylith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 19:55 ShatterZer0 wrote: Why air armor and not attack vs other stargate openings? =.=; Come on, read the thread guys. It's because, as pointed out by moskonia, +1 attack makes no difference in phoenix vs phoenix battles(at least below large numbers such as 10+) Where +1 armor gives a slight difference. His post on the matter: + Show Spoiler +On November 13 2012 13:34 moskonia wrote: Haven't read the full guide yet, but just glad i have a place to bring out a fact I tested and seems to pass by you and a LOT of people, +1 air wep upgrade does NOT help in phoenix mirror, it does not make it any less shots to kill one, unlike the +1 armor which increases shots taken by 1 (wep is of course useful if opponent got def).
Math: the phoenix has 120/60 hp and 0 base armor, it does 5(+5 to light)x2, +1 wep makes it 6(+5 vs light)x2. A 0/0 phoenix kills another one with 9 strikes doing exactly 180 damage, a 1/0 phoenix does 176 damage with 8 shots, thus requiring 9 shots to actually kill another phoenix = upgrade is useless in phoenix mirror. (upgrade is very useful in phoenix vs other stuff though, so when going for many pheonixs it is good to get it, it makes killing colossuses and stalkers much faster).
Edit: grammer and spelling. Actually the +1 weapon changes absolutely nothing until there is +1 armor or shield, while shield or armor helps your pheonixs by increasing their number of hits taken before death from 9 to 10. But even so if you are behind on 2 pheonixs the upgrade would not help to get the tide of battle to your favor. The OP said that with his build you have enough gas while building non-stop phoenix to get +1, in which case if you both have the same amount of the phoenixs, you will win due to the upgrade, and that is why it is good to get it, even though it only has a small affect.
Another cool thing to do if you ever reach a 2base vs 2base situation is to get the +2 range upgrade, that way you can actually kite him! (even though it takes exceptional micro), that could be a funny situation
|
On November 13 2012 20:03 Chylith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 19:55 ShatterZer0 wrote: Why air armor and not attack vs other stargate openings? =.=; Come on, read the thread guys. It's because, as pointed out by moskonia, +1 attack makes no difference in phoenix vs phoenix battles(at least below large numbers such as 10+) Where +1 armor gives a slight difference. His post on the matter: + Show Spoiler +On November 13 2012 13:34 moskonia wrote: Haven't read the full guide yet, but just glad i have a place to bring out a fact I tested and seems to pass by you and a LOT of people, +1 air wep upgrade does NOT help in phoenix mirror, it does not make it any less shots to kill one, unlike the +1 armor which increases shots taken by 1 (wep is of course useful if opponent got def).
Math: the phoenix has 120/60 hp and 0 base armor, it does 5(+5 to light)x2, +1 wep makes it 6(+5 vs light)x2. A 0/0 phoenix kills another one with 9 strikes doing exactly 180 damage, a 1/0 phoenix does 176 damage with 8 shots, thus requiring 9 shots to actually kill another phoenix = upgrade is useless in phoenix mirror. (upgrade is very useful in phoenix vs other stuff though, so when going for many pheonixs it is good to get it, it makes killing colossuses and stalkers much faster).
Edit: grammer and spelling.
The build never really mentions whether you were to be offensive or defensive with your phoenix, so I assumed the latter. +1 attack phoenixes under GS allow for better piecemeal engagements, which should be the normal scenario vs offensive phoenixes, as opposed to full on pitched battles. Also, +1 attack phoenixes allow you to take on +1 armor phoenixes under GS much more evenly than +1 armor vs +1 armor under GS.
Later on, if a transition back to air with VR's vs colossi ever comes up I would think having +1 air attack would be much stronger than +1 air armor.
|
On November 13 2012 20:50 ShatterZer0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 20:03 Chylith wrote:On November 13 2012 19:55 ShatterZer0 wrote: Why air armor and not attack vs other stargate openings? =.=; Come on, read the thread guys. It's because, as pointed out by moskonia, +1 attack makes no difference in phoenix vs phoenix battles(at least below large numbers such as 10+) Where +1 armor gives a slight difference. His post on the matter: + Show Spoiler +On November 13 2012 13:34 moskonia wrote: Haven't read the full guide yet, but just glad i have a place to bring out a fact I tested and seems to pass by you and a LOT of people, +1 air wep upgrade does NOT help in phoenix mirror, it does not make it any less shots to kill one, unlike the +1 armor which increases shots taken by 1 (wep is of course useful if opponent got def).
Math: the phoenix has 120/60 hp and 0 base armor, it does 5(+5 to light)x2, +1 wep makes it 6(+5 vs light)x2. A 0/0 phoenix kills another one with 9 strikes doing exactly 180 damage, a 1/0 phoenix does 176 damage with 8 shots, thus requiring 9 shots to actually kill another phoenix = upgrade is useless in phoenix mirror. (upgrade is very useful in phoenix vs other stuff though, so when going for many pheonixs it is good to get it, it makes killing colossuses and stalkers much faster).
Edit: grammer and spelling. The build never really mentions whether you were to be offensive or defensive with your phoenix, so I assumed the latter. +1 attack phoenixes under GS allow for better piecemeal engagements, which should be the normal scenario vs offensive phoenixes, as opposed to full on pitched battles. Also, +1 attack phoenixes allow you to take on +1 armor phoenixes under GS much more evenly than +1 armor vs +1 armor under GS. Later on, if a transition back to air with VR's vs colossi ever comes up I would think having +1 air attack would be much stronger than +1 air armor. I think most of the time you will not fight with any side having a GS up, since if you and your opponent are smart you will never attack the opponent's phoenixs when they have GS and neither will he to you, therefore the normal fighting will occur at the edge of the base or in mid map, with no GS up.
|
On November 13 2012 20:56 moskonia wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 20:50 ShatterZer0 wrote:On November 13 2012 20:03 Chylith wrote:On November 13 2012 19:55 ShatterZer0 wrote: Why air armor and not attack vs other stargate openings? =.=; Come on, read the thread guys. It's because, as pointed out by moskonia, +1 attack makes no difference in phoenix vs phoenix battles(at least below large numbers such as 10+) Where +1 armor gives a slight difference. His post on the matter: + Show Spoiler +On November 13 2012 13:34 moskonia wrote: Haven't read the full guide yet, but just glad i have a place to bring out a fact I tested and seems to pass by you and a LOT of people, +1 air wep upgrade does NOT help in phoenix mirror, it does not make it any less shots to kill one, unlike the +1 armor which increases shots taken by 1 (wep is of course useful if opponent got def).
Math: the phoenix has 120/60 hp and 0 base armor, it does 5(+5 to light)x2, +1 wep makes it 6(+5 vs light)x2. A 0/0 phoenix kills another one with 9 strikes doing exactly 180 damage, a 1/0 phoenix does 176 damage with 8 shots, thus requiring 9 shots to actually kill another phoenix = upgrade is useless in phoenix mirror. (upgrade is very useful in phoenix vs other stuff though, so when going for many pheonixs it is good to get it, it makes killing colossuses and stalkers much faster).
Edit: grammer and spelling. The build never really mentions whether you were to be offensive or defensive with your phoenix, so I assumed the latter. +1 attack phoenixes under GS allow for better piecemeal engagements, which should be the normal scenario vs offensive phoenixes, as opposed to full on pitched battles. Also, +1 attack phoenixes allow you to take on +1 armor phoenixes under GS much more evenly than +1 armor vs +1 armor under GS. Later on, if a transition back to air with VR's vs colossi ever comes up I would think having +1 air attack would be much stronger than +1 air armor. I think most of the time you will not fight with any side having a GS up, since if you and your opponent are smart you will never attack the opponent's phoenixs when they have GS and neither will he to you, therefore the normal fighting will occur at the edge of the base or in mid map, with no GS up.
The rule of thumb in Phoenix vs Phoenix is to never really engage unless you have a distinct advantage... which is basically never unless you have GS up. At the edge of your/your opponent's base you and your opponent should pop GS if an engagement really seems likely.
Moreover, attack and armor eventually scales towards attack in both main battles and utility later on. I can see why you would want +1 armor in the short term, but in the defensive long run? I'd want attack hands down.
|
On November 13 2012 21:11 ShatterZer0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 20:56 moskonia wrote:On November 13 2012 20:50 ShatterZer0 wrote:On November 13 2012 20:03 Chylith wrote:On November 13 2012 19:55 ShatterZer0 wrote: Why air armor and not attack vs other stargate openings? =.=; Come on, read the thread guys. It's because, as pointed out by moskonia, +1 attack makes no difference in phoenix vs phoenix battles(at least below large numbers such as 10+) Where +1 armor gives a slight difference. His post on the matter: + Show Spoiler +On November 13 2012 13:34 moskonia wrote: Haven't read the full guide yet, but just glad i have a place to bring out a fact I tested and seems to pass by you and a LOT of people, +1 air wep upgrade does NOT help in phoenix mirror, it does not make it any less shots to kill one, unlike the +1 armor which increases shots taken by 1 (wep is of course useful if opponent got def).
Math: the phoenix has 120/60 hp and 0 base armor, it does 5(+5 to light)x2, +1 wep makes it 6(+5 vs light)x2. A 0/0 phoenix kills another one with 9 strikes doing exactly 180 damage, a 1/0 phoenix does 176 damage with 8 shots, thus requiring 9 shots to actually kill another phoenix = upgrade is useless in phoenix mirror. (upgrade is very useful in phoenix vs other stuff though, so when going for many pheonixs it is good to get it, it makes killing colossuses and stalkers much faster).
Edit: grammer and spelling. The build never really mentions whether you were to be offensive or defensive with your phoenix, so I assumed the latter. +1 attack phoenixes under GS allow for better piecemeal engagements, which should be the normal scenario vs offensive phoenixes, as opposed to full on pitched battles. Also, +1 attack phoenixes allow you to take on +1 armor phoenixes under GS much more evenly than +1 armor vs +1 armor under GS. Later on, if a transition back to air with VR's vs colossi ever comes up I would think having +1 air attack would be much stronger than +1 air armor. I think most of the time you will not fight with any side having a GS up, since if you and your opponent are smart you will never attack the opponent's phoenixs when they have GS and neither will he to you, therefore the normal fighting will occur at the edge of the base or in mid map, with no GS up. The rule of thumb in Phoenix vs Phoenix is to never really engage unless you have a distinct advantage... which is basically never unless you have GS up. At the edge of your/your opponent's base you and your opponent should pop GS if an engagement really seems likely. Moreover, attack and armor eventually scales towards attack in both main battles and utility later on. I can see why you would want +1 armor in the short term, but in the defensive long run? I'd want attack hands down. I do admit to not have too much experience with phoenix wars (I prefer robo openings), only played it a few times in a relevant time, so I cannot really say about engaging, but I do not think you want to have more upgrades then the 1st +1 armor, since continuing with phoenix past the earlygame is pretty bad imo.
As soon as you can afford to have HT's the switch to it will be brutal, since if you are fast enough you can kill phoenixs with feedback and before they lift the HT's they become archons that can not be lifted. Who cares that you have 3/3 air vs my 0/1 air when half your army dies in a flash of feedbacks.
The only reason to get +1 wep is for macro, since unless they have +1 armor it is useless and you have to wait for +2 atk (which needs fleet beacon -> will happen much later in the game), which imo is just not worth it since you have better things to spend your money on right now (like +1 armor).
|
Italy12246 Posts
In phoenix mirrors you are kinda forced into massing phoenixes actually. If you cut them you open up a huge timing window where your next tech hasn't paid off yet and the other guy can just come in, kill all your phoenixes and then lift everthing else and finish you off.
Phoenix mirrors are wierd as shit though, it's like bw zvz in a way.
|
Russian Federation216 Posts
Tails? I tho this is Squirtle BO
|
I guess the hardest thing with this build would be to hold proper 4 gate or blink obs all in. Especially the 4 gate where sentry count timings are strict.
|
Remark for blue soon? Also, more stream with commentary please, gogo
|
Another great guide. Yay for remark!
-Cross
|
United States4883 Posts
On November 13 2012 13:07 RemarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 13:01 SC2John wrote: Much like HerO's stargate opener that was posted a few months back...??
I just feel like I've already read all of this. It's actually quite different - HerO's build goes into 2-gates, with a blind robo, a blind second Sentry, and a noticeably later Stargate. Someone asked me on my blog what I thought the difference between the two builds were, here was my answer: "HerO's build feels and plays like a "robo build with phoenix" to me. With this build, the Phoenix are the emphasis and focal unit. Pros of HerO build: has an easier time with DTs due to blind robo, is also slightly more forgiving against early pressure due to blindly making two sentries always as well. Cons of HerO build: his build is REALLY safe - to the point where it can fall behind against greedy play or has a tough time against certain all-ins that cut corners. As an example of the drawbacks of the build you are using, if it were to face this build, it would have a later Stargate, greatly delayed air upgrades, and have invested 200-100 in a useless robotics facility. That said, both builds are good - the main advantage of this build is it's very refined and optimized for the fastest possible "safe" Stargate." Don't get me wrong, they're definitely similar - but they're not the same, and they play out quite differently.
After looking over this post, I understand what you mean now. Looking at this build, I feel like it's a little more unstable and dangerous, but transitions into a really stable defensive midgame whereas HerO's build is very solid and can also be weaponized into a 1-base (or 2-base) phoenix/immortal/zealot allin, which is nice.
Overall, I can see the use in both builds. I like them both, but I would probably stick with this one.
|
On November 13 2012 20:07 Bahamuth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 16:34 RemarK wrote:On November 13 2012 15:51 Kaitokid wrote: While this build is safe against early pressure its bad vs early non robo expands and vs greedier phoenix builds. Which means its not "safe" in general. It's actually fine against any non-robo expand - you just expand yourself, your expo will be delayed but you're ahead in tech so it evens out. He'll have trouble defending two mineral lines with a FE until blink is done, and he can't move out to attack you until he can leave 3 stalkers at both mineral lines. And about greedier phoenix builds, the only way to have a greedier phoenix build is skipping the sentry and going for an immediate Stargate after the core finishes - which, if you read the guide fully, you'd see is mentioned as an option when you scout double gas by your opponent. Why would the 4 gate attack not work against non-robo expands?
It can work - however, it's a little bit tougher. Because they aren't investing resources in a robo, they have faster 3rd / 4th gateways, more units, and sometimes even get a forge / cannons. I think going for that all-in against a non-robo expand wouldn't be the best choice just because you can enter a macro game very comfortably behind Phoenix harass (which is also more fun than all-in'ing).
On November 13 2012 23:41 Aelfric wrote: I guess the hardest thing with this build would be to hold proper 4 gate or blink obs all in. Especially the 4 gate where sentry count timings are strict.
4-gate blink obs and 4-gate DT busts are the hardest thing to hold off with this build. A standard 12-gate 4-gate is actually really easy to hold off, assuming you don't mess up forcefielding your ramp. The whole point of going zealot --> sentry --> zealot --> sentry is that it makes you 100% safe against 4-gate all-in and 3-gate pressures.
|
One of the most frustrating things I've encountered with this build (and HerO's) is a Protoss who simply scouts around your main constantly, looking for tech, since you can't deny it with a Zealot and even doing so with a Sentry takes longer than I'd like.
Is it worth it to simply put down the Stargate at the normal time knowing they'll see it or delay it till the Probe leaves (as I've done) but putting yourself behind significantly it seems.
|
On November 15 2012 10:14 Xaeldaren wrote: One of the most frustrating things I've encountered with this build (and HerO's) is a Protoss who simply scouts around your main constantly, looking for tech, since you can't deny it with a Zealot and even doing so with a Sentry takes longer than I'd like.
Is it worth it to simply put down the Stargate at the normal time knowing they'll see it or delay it till the Probe leaves (as I've done) but putting yourself behind significantly it seems.
Generally, people leave your base shortly after seeing you Chrono your gateway as a Stalker could be coming out to chase your probes. A really good player will know the time difference for a Stalker / Sentry and stick around until they see your Sentry pop but regardless, your Sentry will pop about 20-30 gas sooner than you have the 150 gas needed to put down the Stargate. You should be able to chase his probe out fast enough with the Sentry to put the Stargate down, if he's really annoying he might sacrifice the probe in which case it's better to delay the Stargate until it's dead.
I would just practice your micro with Zealot / Sentry to chase away probes - he shouldn't have an easy time going in circles in your base and as you get better at catching probes, you'll find it easier to get the Stargate down immediately without his scout being in your base.
|
On November 15 2012 11:30 RemarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 10:14 Xaeldaren wrote: One of the most frustrating things I've encountered with this build (and HerO's) is a Protoss who simply scouts around your main constantly, looking for tech, since you can't deny it with a Zealot and even doing so with a Sentry takes longer than I'd like.
Is it worth it to simply put down the Stargate at the normal time knowing they'll see it or delay it till the Probe leaves (as I've done) but putting yourself behind significantly it seems. Generally, people leave your base shortly after seeing you Chrono your gateway as a Stalker could be coming out to chase your probes. A really good player will know the time difference for a Stalker / Sentry and stick around until they see your Sentry pop but regardless, your Sentry will pop about 20-30 gas sooner than you have the 150 gas needed to put down the Stargate. You should be able to chase his probe out fast enough with the Sentry to put the Stargate down, if he's really annoying he might sacrifice the probe in which case it's better to delay the Stargate until it's dead. I would just practice your micro with Zealot / Sentry to chase away probes - he shouldn't have an easy time going in circles in your base and as you get better at catching probes, you'll find it easier to get the Stargate down immediately without his scout being in your base.
usual thing that they shld see coming out is a stalker but they may know you are going for this style of play (esp. if they are familar with this build as well) when they see a sentry instead...and its not that hard to micro your probe away from zealot until the sentry pops
|
On November 15 2012 15:07 brofestor wrote: usual thing that they shld see coming out is a stalker but they may know you are going for this style of play (esp. if they are familar with this build as well) when they see a sentry instead...and its not that hard to micro your probe away from zealot until the sentry pops
the good thing about that is zealot sentry zealot can go into DT expand, 4-gate DT bust, or turtle-y Robo play just as easily as it can go into stargate they shouldn't be able to pin you on a Stargate build unless they either have outside information on you (i.e. have played you enough times to know that you like going Stargate) or they see the Stargate itself.
|
On November 14 2012 17:29 RemarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 20:07 Bahamuth wrote:On November 13 2012 16:34 RemarK wrote:On November 13 2012 15:51 Kaitokid wrote: While this build is safe against early pressure its bad vs early non robo expands and vs greedier phoenix builds. Which means its not "safe" in general. It's actually fine against any non-robo expand - you just expand yourself, your expo will be delayed but you're ahead in tech so it evens out. He'll have trouble defending two mineral lines with a FE until blink is done, and he can't move out to attack you until he can leave 3 stalkers at both mineral lines. And about greedier phoenix builds, the only way to have a greedier phoenix build is skipping the sentry and going for an immediate Stargate after the core finishes - which, if you read the guide fully, you'd see is mentioned as an option when you scout double gas by your opponent. Why would the 4 gate attack not work against non-robo expands? It can work - however, it's a little bit tougher. Because they aren't investing resources in a robo, they have faster 3rd / 4th gateways, more units, and sometimes even get a forge / cannons. I think going for that all-in against a non-robo expand wouldn't be the best choice just because you can enter a macro game very comfortably behind Phoenix harass (which is also more fun than all-in'ing). Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 23:41 Aelfric wrote: I guess the hardest thing with this build would be to hold proper 4 gate or blink obs all in. Especially the 4 gate where sentry count timings are strict. 4-gate blink obs and 4-gate DT busts are the hardest thing to hold off with this build. A standard 12-gate 4-gate is actually really easy to hold off, assuming you don't mess up forcefielding your ramp. The whole point of going zealot --> sentry --> zealot --> sentry is that it makes you 100% safe against 4-gate all-in and 3-gate pressures. Do you have replays of this build holding off the 5:20 warpin 3 gate? I'm having a hard time understanding how it's 100% safe.
|
On November 13 2012 20:14 moskonia wrote:Another cool thing to do if you ever reach a 2base vs 2base situation is to get the +2 range upgrade, that way you can actually kite him! (even though it takes exceptional micro), that could be a funny situation
This just happened at BWC : )
+ Show Spoiler +
|
What would you do if your opponent did a 4 gate stargate attack all in? Seems like they'd lift your sentries and just have more stuff to attack with. I just watched Elfi use a 4 gate stargate against a different stargate opening, (could've been this) against Welmu on ladder and he just had more stuff and won with it. Would you change the build up if you suspected something crazy like that?
|
Nice, I've been looking for a stargate build for quite a while now. Thanks a bunch :D
|
I may be wrong, but I think Naniwa used this in Nasl, stomping OZ blink build. Anyone know for sure?
|
On November 22 2012 16:41 deadmau wrote: I may be wrong, but I think Naniwa used this in Nasl, stomping OZ blink build. Anyone know for sure?
I didn't see the games, but based on what I heard and the game description, he might have been using HerO's build - it's very similar but goes into 2 gates with a fast robotics behind the stargate.
|
I would recommend from experience in stargate mirror that you should just go and kill him straight away if he's going for a nexus, he shouldn't be able to hold, it doesn't matter that you're +1 armour hasnt finished.
The reason for this is that some people go into forge and defensive cannons at their expansion, and if they do you have to hit before the cannons get up. Anyways you might want to edit this into your OP (or not) or at least include how scouting a forge can change the situation.
-Pezz
|
So if +1 armor is better than +1 weapons, then why is everyone at Dreamhack and IEM getting +1 weapons all the time?
|
On November 24 2012 20:40 Bahamuth wrote: So if +1 armor is better than +1 weapons, then why is everyone at Dreamhack and IEM getting +1 weapons all the time?
Probably a combination of it being cheaper and them not knowing any better. Alternatively, if it's getting to the stage where +2 upgrades come into play, then obviously you need to get +1 just to unlock that next tier.
I'm running a test right now, again, to indicate how little an impact it has in phoenix battles of any scale.
25 Phoenix vs 25 Phoenix, arranged identically and a-moved:
Round 1: +1 attack phoenix wins against 0-0 phoenix with 1 phoenix, 9hp surviving (one shot away from death)
Round 2: +1 attack wins with 4 phoenix left over
Round 3: 0-0 phoenix win with 5 left over.
Round 4: 0-0 phoenix win with 2 left over.
Round 5: +1 attack phoenix win with 4 left over.
As you can see, it's fairly random who wins, and by what margin.
Mathematically, there is no advantage to having +1 air attack versus unupgraded phoenix. It takes the exact same number of shots to kill a Phoenix with or without +1 air attack.
+1 armor will give you an edge against an un-upgraded Phoenix. Hence, why I recommend getting it first in this guide as it's the only thing that makes an immediate difference. +1 attack is nice to have against someone who has the armor upgrade, once you have your own armor upgrade done though (I think anyways).
|
As an expansion on my previous post, 25 +1 armor Phoenixes consistently beat 25 unupgraded phoenixes with 4-5 leftover each time.
On November 23 2012 22:17 Protossking wrote: I would recommend from experience in stargate mirror that you should just go and kill him straight away if he's going for a nexus, he shouldn't be able to hold, it doesn't matter that you're +1 armour hasnt finished.
The reason for this is that some people go into forge and defensive cannons at their expansion, and if they do you have to hit before the cannons get up. Anyways you might want to edit this into your OP (or not) or at least include how scouting a forge can change the situation.
-Pezz
Good point, I'll add a warning that you need to watch out for forge / cannons to defend a natural expansion and that it can be better to hit faster.
|
But following the fight between phoenixes, +1 air attack phoenixes would fare much better against the ground units remaining? But then if you get +1 air attack you might not win the air battle as convincingly so you'd have less phoenixes to attack the ground units with. Tricky call
|
On November 25 2012 11:24 Eifer wrote: But following the fight between phoenixes, +1 air attack phoenixes would fare much better against the ground units remaining? But then if you get +1 air attack you might not win the air battle as convincingly so you'd have less phoenixes to attack the ground units with. Tricky call I don't think that's much of a factor, honestly, getting a bit more damage on the units you are lifting isn't very relevant. The advantages of +1 attack is that it leads to +2 and nullifies +1 armor by costing less money (according to math provided somewhere in this thread, I haven't checked), but if I were to guess why pros always get it is just that this haven't been explored enough since phoenix battles are so weird. Another hypothesis is that +1 attack makes a difference when guardian shield in involved, and pros just assume that this will likely be the case in a game.
|
How should I react if my first Phoenix sees 3 gates and a Robo with no expansion?
|
On November 27 2012 14:14 MysteryHours wrote: How should I react if my first Phoenix sees 3 gates and a Robo with no expansion?
I think you can just pump Phoenix constantly, and play reactively. If he eventually expands with lots of stalker sentry, you can just expand yourself and start teching to robo and enter a standard game. If he stays on 1-base for a really long time, you can expand and start adding on more sentries and either a forge + 4th gateway or robo + 4th gateway to secure your expansion. You want to keep tabs on what units he's making, but if you make Phoenix constantly, he won't be able to defend his main base without leaving lots of stalkers behind, so you either kill all his probes and defend his all-in or you crush his army because he has lots of stalkers in his main base.
|
Question, if you find proxy gate with gas scout what is correct response?
|
On December 02 2012 06:25 coldSnaH wrote: Question, if you find proxy gate with gas scout what is correct response?
Different people have different strategies - its usually either add 2nd gateway and pull some probes to make up for his slightly faster Zealots or get a Forge and use cannons to secure yourself while teching to core. The first can be risky against people with competent micro, the second is risky against people who transition into a 2-gate stalker rush if there are any holes in your cannon coverage.
|
Question, how do you hold 4 gate warp prism all in? As this is the main reason I don't go pheonix.
|
how does attack upgrades work for the phoenix? I mean it has 2 attacks so would every upgrade be +2?
|
On December 02 2012 10:43 coldSnaH wrote: Question, how do you hold 4 gate warp prism all in? As this is the main reason I don't go pheonix.
probably pick off warp prism with phoenix, preferably before it hits ur base but otherwise to stop reinforcements and if necessary sac a few probes to win time and get more units out
|
probably pick off warp prism with phoenix, preferably before it hits ur base but otherwise to stop reinforcements and if necessary sac a few probes to win time and get more units out
hmmm I probably already thought of that if it was possible....
|
On December 02 2012 10:43 coldSnaH wrote: Question, how do you hold 4 gate warp prism all in? As this is the main reason I don't go pheonix.
Phoenix is basically a straight-up counter to WP 4gate. Just attack the Warp Prism, take solace that he will eventually not be able to reinforce where the battle is going on, and you will be ahead in tech and economy assuming you don't lose probes to the attack.
Just rally Phoenix to the most likely WP entry point in your base and put them on patrol if you are worried. Phoenix + Zealot is really strong in small battles. WP 4gates are also quite awkward, timing-wise, so they don't hit nearly as early as a regular 4gate.
|
On December 02 2012 10:43 coldSnaH wrote: Question, how do you hold 4 gate warp prism all in? As this is the main reason I don't go pheonix.
If you are not confident in holding the 4 gate warp prism with the BO in this topic, you could try going phoenix with this opening: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=302117
Anyways, post a replay and we can give you more specific advice.
|
On December 02 2012 14:39 coldSnaH wrote:Show nested quote +probably pick off warp prism with phoenix, preferably before it hits ur base but otherwise to stop reinforcements and if necessary sac a few probes to win time and get more units out hmmm I probably already thought of that if it was possible....
why isn't it possible? pick off warp prism, use phoenix and new warpins and if necessary a few probes to kill off his 4gate?
then u can pressure him and force him to warp in sentries and stalkers to fend off phoenix/gateway aggression and expand behind it
|
On December 02 2012 23:59 sharpz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 14:39 coldSnaH wrote:probably pick off warp prism with phoenix, preferably before it hits ur base but otherwise to stop reinforcements and if necessary sac a few probes to win time and get more units out hmmm I probably already thought of that if it was possible.... why isn't it possible? pick off warp prism, use phoenix and new warpins and if necessary a few probes to kill off his 4gate? then u can pressure him and force him to warp in sentries and stalkers to fend off phoenix/gateway aggression and expand behind it
Saw naniwa do this on his stream without even scouting it at all. Had like 10 gateway units in his base very early and just used probes + gateway units to clean it up while using the pheonix to kill the prism. I think 4 gate warp prism is only good vs greedy builds like dt expand or zealot sentry sentry robo.
|
Do you really not Probescout on 2 player maps?
I tried to avoid that too, turns out that a smart opponent will fake a 4Gate and force you into making additional Sentries while expanding/teching. Just saying that because in the build order skeleton you mentioned an early scout on 4 player maps but no scout on 2player maps except for proxies.
Anyway I am still not fully convinced that this build is superior to a blind Robo Phoenix.
Blind Robo means earlier detection/Immortals against DTs/Blink. Blind Robo also means that you do not have to scout with your first Phoenix, instead you can save up to 3 and immediatelly deal damage, you will still arive before the dark shrine finishes I believe. Also against someone going Phoenix and scouting with the first one you will be able to kill it. By the time his first Phoenix reaches your base you have 2 waiting there already. Killing one Phoenix makes up for the cost of the Robo.
Yes, it will make a Phoenix bust against Immortal expand weaker but that is the only scenario I feel you get a disadvantage. And against Immortal/Sentry expand Phoenixes will do so much damage you can win a macro game easily. ( I usually get 20-30 Probe kills over the course of the game)
I don't mean to say this build is bad or anything (Pros don't use bad builds anymore...) but I think it is more likely to lose you a game without perfect game sense and the reward is very, very little.
|
On December 13 2012 18:44 rEalGuapo wrote: Do you really not Probescout on 2 player maps?
I tried to avoid that too, turns out that a smart opponent will fake a 4Gate and force you into making additional Sentries while expanding/teching. Just saying that because in the build order skeleton you mentioned an early scout on 4 player maps but no scout on 2player maps except for proxies.
Anyway I am still not fully convinced that this build is superior to a blind Robo Phoenix.
Blind Robo means earlier detection/Immortals against DTs/Blink. Blind Robo also means that you do not have to scout with your first Phoenix, instead you can save up to 3 and immediatelly deal damage, you will still arive before the dark shrine finishes I believe. Also against someone going Phoenix and scouting with the first one you will be able to kill it. By the time his first Phoenix reaches your base you have 2 waiting there already. Killing one Phoenix makes up for the cost of the Robo.
Yes, it will make a Phoenix bust against Immortal expand weaker but that is the only scenario I feel you get a disadvantage. And against Immortal/Sentry expand Phoenixes will do so much damage you can win a macro game easily. ( I usually get 20-30 Probe kills over the course of the game)
I don't mean to say this build is bad or anything (Pros don't use bad builds anymore...) but I think it is more likely to lose you a game without perfect game sense and the reward is very, very little.
These are actually all very valid points, and your analysis is spot on in most cases. The biggest advantages of a Phoenix build like this are the flexibility in getting air upgrades and potential to play a little bit greedier as a reaction to what your zealot on the watch tower sees.
The phoenix + blind robo build does have it's own set of advantages though, and as long as you are able to keep making phoenixes constantly, it might even be a superior build, as you no longer lose to YOLO phoenixes (when someone hides their first phoenixes in their base to surprise you - this autoloses to DTs if they don't have a robo) and the faster robo does help out against blink all-ins and just standard blink+obs play.
|
|
|
|