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On July 23 2013 08:47 Zaal wrote:Hi ! It seems to be a great way of improvement and I want to try it out myself, but I have a question about step 1, does it mean that you can only build worker ? Or can we build given units too ? Thanks 
Jak's answer below is better. If someone sees this post that can delete it, please do
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Step 1 is minerals only, attack move only (don't look at battles).
that means ANYTHING you can do with only minerals, you can do on step 1, that is all. This is different from Step 2 because you can get gas in step 2 in order to get observers or overseers as well as any other given units. Also, in Step 2 you are encouraged to micro to the max! :D
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All right ! Thanks for your answers
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Hi!
So great I stumbled over the Staircase, it is such a great concept, and together with GGtracker such an awesome way to improve and to really monitor your progress.
Play SC2 since half a year now, and next to the Staircase, the tutorial videos from filterstarcraft (filtersc, is also recommended by teamliquid, see this TL-Forum thread or a lot of videos on youtube, channel "filtersc" or search "HoTS Bronze to Masters") helped me to a huge amount.
Why I think this can be a good addition ...
+ Show Spoiler + He also has a major focus on "macro and mechanics first", builds up from step by step with benchmarks (mostly worker count by a several time), how to constantly make workers and safely expand / defend. He shows the "How" to get a good Saturation and Spending, and with the Staircase and GGtracker you can monitor your progress and be more flexible with different approaches. The basic videos / theory is good for all races, he hast a distinguished "Bronze to Masters" series for Terran, where he is an expert, after that he made one for Zerg and just started the first episode for Protoss
--> Maybe - if others agree - you could name it as a great addition to the Staircase for players who struggle with the mechanics on how to actually get to a good saturation (and spending).
--> And if there is interest and I find the time, I might come up with steps (especially for new players) on how one could integrate those two methods.
I wanted to have a reference sheet on one page to print out as a quick overview, and based upon the spreadsheet - you can download the one I created here. Feel free to use it, I shortened some sentences in order for it to fit on one page.
"Training games" and "Staircase Games":
In order to train my skills (I play Zerg and very often have Master Saturation or higher, but very often only Bronze Spending Quotient), I found it helpful to divide each step on the Staircase in different "phases", and think, that might be helpful to make it even more effective.
Whenever I get bad results, feel uncomfortable or just feel like I do not know exactly, what to do, I switch to "Training modus". Play on maps I am comfortable with, maybe games without AI (if anyone knows good arcade maps for this, might be helpful - there is one Arcade map from filtersc for Terrans, based on "Cloud Kingdom" where you can train his benchmarks without an AI-opponent. Would be great to have that for "The Staircase" - where it shows you while playing you actual SQ and starts a timer for base saturation when you start a new base. You could enter the level, you want to achieve, and it gives you feedback, how good you are hitting those benchmarks right at the moment.
Back to the main point - I especially find it helpful to reduce the speed when I try to improve at a specific area, have just added new elements etc. Even pause at certain moments, think, where am I at now, what are good next steps. When it works, I slowly increase speed, add an AI that gets stronger and stronger, play other maps. Those games I surely do not count towards the "80% success for next step".
This happens in the second phase, where I play "Staircase Games". They must be on "Faster", against an AI (or ladder, for sure), on ladder maps and at least some variety - not only one map, no pause (except when sth. interrupts or technical problems).
When on a new step or trying out a new BO / strategy, I play a test game and then decide, if I need training games or can play staircase games right away. And - by the way - it is helpful to reserve some games regularly to focus on your mechanics and hitting your benchmarks, to keep a good foundation for all the other (ladder) games.
To wrap it up - find it helpful especially for newer players, to make this idea more explicit a part of the Staircase. Best would be, to expand the "How to ..." section after point 4:
Point 4 (old): Follow the constrictions for each step.
Point 5: Feel free to play several training games with reduced speed, no or weak A.I. on maps you like and even pause the game.
Point 6: When you are comfortable, test your skills, playing games on ladder or against A.I. on ladder maps with speed "Faster".
Point 7: Check if you meet or exceed all benchmarks. When you pass 4 out if 5 games, advance to next step (and back to point 4 of this "How to ..." instruction).
Can be formulated a little smoother, I guess, but I am interested, what you think about this.
Keep it up!
:o) Quonzoran
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fuck off with this, been seeing it form 2years noone any good uses it, stop bumping ur own posts
User was warned for this post
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... as my post was a little longer, wanted to highlight an idea, I find interested that might get lost ...
Filtersc created an arcade map for his training method. I like the idea of creating a training arcade map for "The Staircase" to train your skills.
Basic features:
- optionally no A.I. to focus on your mechanics
- set the benchmarks at the beginning (and maybe the matchup, because benchmarks differ)
- show your actual Spending Quotient and maybe overall SQ, indicating (with color or warning message) if you hit your benchmark or are way behind
- when you make a new mining base, a timer for saturation starts and warnings if close or if you miss your timing
Advanced features:
- select the step on "TheStaircase" you are at, and if necessary the units you want to use. Only that units are available when you play it (and maybe on Step 1 no gas).
Have no experience in programming such a map, but I have heard, there are some people who like those challenges. If there is enough interest, I think we could find someone who would love to do that in order to have many users of that map.
I think, a lot of warnings etc. can be implemented by an intelligent usage of events.
What do you think?
:o) Quonzoran
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On July 26 2013 10:31 StatixEx wrote:
fuck off with this, been seeing it form 2years noone any good uses it, stop bumping ur own posts
You seem to be mostly trolling but anyway:
1. Jak didn't bump this, it is a new user of it showing his appreciation.
2. This is an improvement method, pros and other high level players are already good at all the mechanics it teaches you so of course they aren't as likely to use this (although I think some higher level players said it is nice to use after you've been on a break for a while and need to get your mechanics back).
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On July 26 2013 10:31 StatixEx wrote:
fuck off with this, been seeing it form 2years noone any good uses it, stop bumping ur own posts
Do not want to get too much into this ... As teuthida mentioned, I am a new user wanting to express my appreciation and trying to make a contribution / sharing some ideas.
I am open for feedback and to learn - if the ideas are not helpful, there is a mistake in it - fine, like to learn. If the way I posted somehow wasn't appropriate - tried it the way, I thought was good, and am happy to adjust, when another way is "common sense" here.
But in order for this to be fruitful, I would need to know, what you mean by "it" and "this" ("fuck off with this, been seeing it for 2 years") - do you talk about TheStaircase or the tutorials from filtersc, I mentioned? And in which way did I bump my own post?
If you just did not like my post, o.k., got that message, that's fine. If you want me sth. to learn and improve, it would be helpful to be more explicit.
Quonzoran
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Quonzoran, I haven't read all the way through your post but I think a training map would work really well for the Staircase. You can have it tell you outright if you 'passed' a step or not, maybe insta-restart to go again, and display a lot of info to help you out if you want.
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@Quonzoran
Sorry its taken me so long to get back to you. I'll be reading your posts on TheCore after this. Thanks so much for sharing your ideas with us :D
I incorporated your printable reference sheet into the OP, great idea! :D
Concerning making mechanics a more explict part of TheStaircase, I hope to accomplish that in the video series I am working on. I don't think making TheStaircase more complex is a good idea, there are people struggling to understand it as it is now. If anything it would be nice to make it more simple or user-friendly (which will be accomplished with GGTracker integration).
One of the things I like most about TheStaircase is that new players can use it right away and start winning games on the ranked ladder. (legit brand new to Sc2 players have done this). Doing a lot of prep work before getting into the game turns people away from Sc2 IMO. The idea is to make it as easy as possible to start having fun playing Sc2 from day 1.
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Hi JaKaTaK, I just wanted to thank you for posting this method, I've been using it for two days and I already feel my (terran) mechanics are improving Keep up the good work!
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You're very welcome Poulsen Glad you're enjoying it. If you think of any ideas to make it better, don't hesitate to contribute :D
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On July 27 2013 03:33 JaKaTaK wrote:
@Quonzoran
Sorry its taken me so long to get back to you. I'll be reading your posts on TheCore after this. Thanks so much for sharing your ideas with us :D
I incorporated your printable reference sheet into the OP, great idea! :D
Thanks, too - am happy, that it is helpful, and that I can contribute a little ... I think, that is what it's all about - being happy to share and profiting from other people's sharings ... And as I said on TheCore, too - fully understand that it sometimes takes time to reply, as we all have not only StarCraft in our lives ... same is true for me ...
Re: Encouraging new players to slow down, when they use the Staircase and feel stressed:
I don't think making TheStaircase more complex is a good idea, there are people struggling to understand it as it is now. If anything it would be nice to make it more simple or user-friendly (which will be accomplished with GGTracker integration).
Agree with you on that point. Two thoughts:
- At least for me, I can say (playing StarCraft for about 7 months more intensively), that at the beginning, I was fascinated by strategy, build orders and tried to implement it all at once. It was a big "enlightenment" for me, to focus on mechanics first, and also do it step-by-step, one thing at a time. And (maybe that's a no-brainer) simply reducing the speed, to be able to get out of pressure and "panic-clicking". For a long time I thought, to directly play at a high speed level would be the best way to improve.
"If you want to hurry your learning, slow down" - that is how you could summarize it. And simply opening up the mind of someone who uses the Staircase, especially if a beginner, that this is sth to consider (and in fact actually proven to be helpful in learning science) - would be good, I think.
So just a short sentence somewhere on "how to use it", that says - hey, when you feel stressed or it is too much, make it easier, slower speed, easy A.I. (or none), and usually you will improve quicker than banging your head against the wall at high-speed.
Whoever feels comfortable laddering directly - absolutely fine, it's just an option / a tool, you can use.
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I agree. I'll definitely make a note of it in the videos. For a long time I was against using slower speeds to learn Sc2, but I've been using it to learn builds and its been very effective for me. The argument is that if you train at slower speeds you won't get the internal clock for things like mules and injects. This makes a lot of sense for mid/late game, but for learning builds, or particular micro practice, I think the slower speeds can help
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I started out using FilterSC because that was all I knew about at the time. I recently came across this and almost instantly stepped up my game. I'm hitting masters benchmarks across all saturation 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. I'm only on step 3 though. My spending in long games is still only around high platinum though. Some shorter games it is all the way at GM level though! My old games (I uploaded a bunch onto GGtracker) I was low platinum in most games spending wise. 1st base saturation was masters level but 2nd and 3rd were almost always BRONZE.
I go back and watch the replays and see myself 50 supply ahead of my opponents frequently during the 12 minutes mark.
This is really a cool idea and philosophy to improving.
P.S. That video on motivation is golden. I believe everyone who sees this post should go to page 1 and WATCH THAT FRIGGIN VIDEO.
How exactly is saturation speed determined?
Does it factor in Mules? Does it factor in lost mining time? Does getting gas geysers before I fully saturate the mineral patches cause my score to go down?
I find that my saturation speed on my 3rd is frequently either Masters or Bronze. Never any in between. It is a similar case with my 2nd base. Why could that be? I ALWAYS have between 46-50 workers by the 10 minute mark. Which should be fine for saturation on two bases right?
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@ RamboJesus:
Did like the motivaition video, have not seen it before, thanks for potining that out!
Concerning saturation speed - you might want to look it up on GGTracker: http://ggtracker.com/saturation_speed
As far as I can summarize it:
+ Show Spoiler +- it measures the time, when you put down your first and second base until first time saturation of thtat base (640 mineral income = 16 workers on mineral), it measures NOT if you put down your 2nd early or late (because could depend stronger on game circumstances)
- it is a median benchmark, created by analyzing a lot of replays. So say, if 1.000 platinum games were analyzed, in order to hit platinum saturation, you need to be as good as player 500. MULES are not integrated, but as you take the median, you kind of assume an approprate usage of that at that level
- in addition to that, the values differ according to the matchup - TvP has other benchmarks than TvZ. So that could be one reason, why it differs.
Having 46 workers at 10 minutes does not guarantue a good saturation mark, it depends on when you built your second, and how fast it is mining with 16 workers. So - if you always continously add workers up to 10 minutes, and in one case, you have an early 2nd - this means, low saturation rating. If you build workers at the same speed, but have a comparibly late 2nd, you get a good saturation.
Saturation speed is not a measure for everything. You should decide depending on your game plan or how it unfolds, when it is the right time to build a second or third. Saturation measures, when you made this decision, is your mechanics up to date to saturate it quickly, which I find is a pretty useful and intelligent tool.
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On July 27 2013 15:56 RamboJesus wrote:
I started out using FilterSC because that was all I knew about at the time. I recently came across this and almost instantly stepped up my game. I'm hitting masters benchmarks across all saturation 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. I'm only on step 3 though. My spending in long games is still only around high platinum though. Some shorter games it is all the way at GM level though! My old games (I uploaded a bunch onto GGtracker) I was low platinum in most games spending wise. 1st base saturation was masters level but 2nd and 3rd were almost always BRONZE.
I go back and watch the replays and see myself 50 supply ahead of my opponents frequently during the 12 minutes mark.
This is really a cool idea and philosophy to improving.
P.S. That video on motivation is golden. I believe everyone who sees this post should go to page 1 and WATCH THAT FRIGGIN VIDEO.
How exactly is saturation speed determined?
Does it factor in Mules? Does it factor in lost mining time? Does getting gas geysers before I fully saturate the mineral patches cause my score to go down?
I find that my saturation speed on my 3rd is frequently either Masters or Bronze. Never any in between. It is a similar case with my 2nd base. Why could that be? I ALWAYS have between 46-50 workers by the 10 minute mark. Which should be fine for saturation on two bases right?
GGTracker does not take into account early pressure that causes you mining time, it ONLY tracks the mineral income value against bases in mining position when calculated saturation speed. So yes, putting workers in geysers before you hit the mineral patches will cause your score to go down. I'm not sure about the mule question, but I doubt it. A big thing too is that you should have 2 base saturation in minerals long before 10 min mark if you have 46-50 workers, considering 2 base mineral saturation only requires 32 workers.
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We're working on Saturation Speed right now. The biggest flaw that it has is that it is based on mineral income only. We thought that this would work well, but have found that it does not. Its going to take some time, but it will be much better once we've finished
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First of all, thank you.
Started playing few days ago (Bronze League) and am enjoying the steps thoroughly. Got my spending up to consistent Master-Grandmaster and Saturation up to Platinum-Master on level 2 so far. It's amazing to win a lot of games by overwhelming my opponent with +3+3 zealots+mothership on 4-5 bases.
For people who are on the same path as me, the 'big jump' is from 1st to 2nd steps, so I say - do not rush everything at once with new opportunities - Gas up a bit and get your upgrades, then stop gasing and push for gg. Another game, upgrades+drops/warp prism/nydus, third game add something more.
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hi Guys, sorry for sounding a bit noobish but I have created a ggtracker account and authenticated my bnet id on it. Where I am lost is where the instructions say to click on staircase view under name and select league goal. I do see my name on the top right but once I select staircase view I do not see any option to select league goal or to choose race.
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EPT
