EPT[G] GM zerg from Complexity academy ZvP guide - Page 5
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jimbob615
Uruguay455 Posts
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FuzzySc2
Canada140 Posts
On September 21 2012 02:17 Nooborghini wrote: Edit: Nvm, I'm herp derping all over the place today. Can't read. When do you usually take your 3rd if it is delayed vs FFE, I usually get it around the 30ish supply mark if it is delayed but when do you usually get it? Great guide overall, very good reminder to all Zergs about their mechanics in the match-up. Umm i put the build into the guide, you block yourself at 36 then overlord then when you hit 100 minerals after the overlord you send a drone out to take your 3rd. The drone will get there exactly when you hit 300 minerals and lower your supply to 35 letting you do 1 more drone, then your ovy pops lining up with injects poping bumping you to 40-42 supply then you double gass and overlord on 40 again. The gass timings is 10s faster than the other build with this | ||
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Nooborghini
Canada136 Posts
On September 21 2012 03:23 FuzzySc2 wrote: Umm i put the build into the guide, you block yourself at 36 then overlord then when you hit 100 minerals after the overlord you send a drone out to take your 3rd. The drone will get there exactly when you hit 300 minerals and lower your supply to 35 letting you do 1 more drone, then your ovy pops lining up with injects poping bumping you to 40-42 supply then you double gass and overlord on 40 again. The gass timings is 10s faster than the other build with this Thank you very much Fuzzy <3 I couldn't find it in the OP, maybe I wasn't looking hard enough. ><" sry I'm at work and I'm SO bored. | ||
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FuzzySc2
Canada140 Posts
On September 20 2012 22:46 Northern_iight wrote: yea. pretty much. If you fail to stop protoss third, all the gas you spend on roaches, you will not have enough tech to deal with colossus. Or anything else. Once they stablize and go mothership, your corruptor count would be very low, same with your infestors. Fuzzy points it out well in this guide that I've been following. After 30 roaches, you should stop and go lings instead to save gas for tech. If your initial forces deal damage like snipping sentries or they use too many forcefields, I would make another round (10-15 roaches) to replace some lost roaches and to put more pressure. Having lots of lings are good too, they can really distrupt the immortal AI into shooting the lings instead. as for midgame flow. lets say you don't all in, put some pressure with roach/ling and force protoss to make units. You put your infestation pit down, take your 4th. continue to go 200/200 while saturating your 4th. You should have around 5-6 infestors with roach/ling 200/200. When you're on 4 base full saturation you go hive tech and throw down 10+ spines (replace drones). They should be pushing you around this time so you need to land some good fungals in the heart of their death ball while getting a full surround. This requires you to split your forces as you see protoss moving towards you. Try to engage as he hits your spine wall. This means you need to place spine wall in right location. Once he's in range of spines, you fungal and don't let him go. If he retreats with the unfungaled part of the army then you get a free piece and for certain you can tech to broodlords safely. If he fights then you have advantage with surround and spine wall. Hope that helps. Maybe fuzzy can touch up on it I think the idea of "turtle behind spines" is actually not very good. To me everything has to go in order in this matchup, so for example if you got a 160 supply army of 6-10 infestors and lings after you did your initial push which did damage you should just put down spines, you should use these units to do the next wave of pressure and behind this you throw down spines. If you have army units that you made they have to be active. The 4th timing should be before your pressure as well, you want to get the gasses mining asap + the a little bit of extra income because you will be going to 75-80 drones. | ||
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FuzzySc2
Canada140 Posts
On September 21 2012 03:18 jimbob615 wrote: Fuzzy don't ever forget your Stoic roots... stoicFuzzy fighting! haha ^_^ | ||
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FuzzySc2
Canada140 Posts
On September 21 2012 02:51 Lobotomist wrote: Awesome guide! Could you talk about transitioning into the mid/late game a bit? I understand the early game well enough, but don't understand how to transition very well. It seems like once I tech to infestors, protoss has the initiative and can tech/expand/attack while I slog my way towards broodlords. I've seen some zerg players do midgame attacks once they get infestors and/or corruptors, but I don't really have a great grasp on these attacks. Could you speak to them? A lot depends on the game but this Matchup is all about timings, if you see them taking a 3rd the first timing 11-12 min is trying to punish the fact that their army is small + immobile and has to cover the distance of 3 bases so an example of takign advantage of this is to drop the main with your whole army roachs + lings and as his army goes to defend you send the reinforcement units (all lings) to attack his 3rd or natural. This is happening while youre making infestors because the gass buildup. You should be at 8-10 infestors when the aggeression is done (also on 4 base with 8 gass mining 80 dones dont forget to drop your spire and start hive :D) Your next timing will be with the 8-10 infestors and mass lings into a non ramp location (ex:daybreak attack the 3rd base if you cant get up the ramp to natural) The infestors will use all energy on infested terrans and then pull back. If you manage to do massive damage with this prepare for a counter attack (make spines if you see yourself doing a shitload of damage) Dont rush to BL if you see that his army is small and you keep trading very well and have been keeping up on getting your upgrades ultras are actually a good choice before transitioning into BL | ||
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gronnelg
Norway354 Posts
On September 20 2012 22:26 Mavvie wrote: Zerg has 3 (arguably 4) ways to play ZvP midgame. 1) roach/ling max, yeah all in. Will work up until ~mid-top diamond. Keep in mind maxing roach/ling can be necessary to stop various 2 base all ins (mainly colossus all in) 2) mutas into 5 base hive. Just get mutas then take your fifth (take your fourth as soon as no gateway all in). Harass him a lot, counterattacks, if he moves out then basetrade and laugh  3) infestor/spine turtle. Just mass infestor/spine/ling on 4 bases and get a fast greater spire. 4) BANERAIN! Idk, speedbanes and bane bombs on mineral lines, yada yada. Just remember that lings are free: I lost a game because 40 lings ran by and sniped ONE colossus and a few probes. I couldn't move out for another minute, which bought him time for broods. I really want ot avoid number 3. With number 2: you take your 4th as soon as you see the toss 3rd go down then? What triggers do you go by, to know when to a) start spire? b) start 5th? c) start inf pit/hive? d) stop muta production? | ||
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FuzzySc2
Canada140 Posts
On September 21 2012 16:06 gronnelg wrote: I really want ot avoid number 3. With number 2: you take your 4th as soon as you see the toss 3rd go down then? What triggers do you go by, to know when to a) start spire? b) start 5th? c) start inf pit/hive? d) stop muta production? all the mid game transitions that i recommend are in the guide under mid game transition section xD | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On September 21 2012 16:06 gronnelg wrote: I really want ot avoid number 3. With number 2: you take your 4th as soon as you see the toss 3rd go down then? What triggers do you go by, to know when to a) start spire? b) start 5th? c) start inf pit/hive? d) stop muta production? Why? It's the hardest style to play against as toss; you can't attack into infestor/spine/ling, and it's really hard to win lategame against broodlord/infestor a) As soon as lair is done if I feel like going mutas; otherwise start it as you start your hive so they finish at the same time. I like to go a fast muta style, skipping roach warren if I can (ie no gateway all in), so you can get optimal drone count + mutas out by 11:00. But really, just throw it down when your lair is done, should be starting it 8:20 at the latest with standard gas timings b) Once I'm saturated on four bases You don't really need the 9th and 10th gases until hive tech, so it's not that big a deal.c) Transitioning is hard. Really hard. Day[9] did a daily on it, but I didn't find it helpful. Throw it down once you have like, 15 mutas. It's only 150 gas, and I'd rather get it early and not use it than get it too late and die. Hive ASAP, start it when you stop muta production: d) As soon as he can start to easily defend this. Be afraid of HT with storm or archons; until you see this, keep making mutas! I like to go past 30 mutas; you kill nexii so fast that if he's out of position for 5 seconds he loses a base. Also, if you have 5 bases and he has no HT, you should be able to max out on muta/ling and just attack and win. Try to snipe sentries with mutas, especially ones casting GS. Yeah I think fuzzy covers the midgame options better than I do, but most of this is standard ZvP knowledge ^^ | ||
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TsGBruzze
Sweden1190 Posts
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revel8
United Kingdom3022 Posts
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FuzzySc2
Canada140 Posts
On September 22 2012 07:24 revel8 wrote: Nice work, Fuzzy. Always good to see some upcoming players. Hopefully you can 'graduate' into Complexity too. NA scene needs new blood, so you have my support. Are you planning to compete in some tournaments where we can follow your games? I've asked Husky to cast some of your games to help increase your profile. I go to each mlg, esea is casted for col academy too. going to be playing in the col academy vs minigun showmatch at 8est today too ^_^ | ||
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revel8
United Kingdom3022 Posts
On September 22 2012 07:48 FuzzySc2 wrote: I go to each mlg, esea is casted for col academy too. going to be playing in the col academy vs minigun showmatch at 8est today too ^_^ OK, cool. I've just been watching your VODs on twitch. Just saw you beat a Protoss called Placid on Daybreak using drop play. Any particular Zerg players who inspire you or that you base your game play on? Idra, Stephano, DRG, Dimaga? | ||
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aLtNXZ
Australia36 Posts
Also do you normally prefer going lair or speed first? I tend to go speed when I scout no gas at their natural, chrono on forge etc and then lair when hes going for a build with some tech. Also I assume by gateway first into nexus you mean gateway before forge at natural? and the same for a cyber core. Lastly what indicators do you see to decide which style to use? Or do you just go any of them or is their one you prefer etc. Thanks for the guide | ||
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FuzzySc2
Canada140 Posts
On September 22 2012 08:46 aLtNXZ wrote: I'm curious, if you are pylon blocked at the natural and take the third instead as you suggest do you just play with a regular fast third and not your preferred delayed one? So basically if you get the hatch at the natural you go for your build and if you don't you go for the standard one? Also do you normally prefer going lair or speed first? I tend to go speed when I scout no gas at their natural, chrono on forge etc and then lair when hes going for a build with some tech. Also I assume by gateway first into nexus you mean gateway before forge at natural? and the same for a cyber core. Lastly what indicators do you see to decide which style to use? Or do you just go any of them or is their one you prefer etc. Thanks for the guide If he pylon blocks you at natural and you take 3rd instead you still delay the 3rd, the build itself is better in all situations. The only time i go to the other build is if he pylon blocks me at natural and instantly sends his probe to the 3rd to prevent me from getting my base down. I go speed before lair, helps with any type of allin :D. Yes i mean gateway before forge and they gate cyber opening is the very old metagame where the delay their natural and make a cyber before taking it. I change the style depending on the map. For example ling roach push on shakuras is very powerfull because they cant sim city the area between their natural + 3rd. Mutas are effective on a map like tald where you can force a base trade when they push out, ect. | ||
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aLtNXZ
Australia36 Posts
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CanadianSC
Canada53 Posts
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FuzzySc2
Canada140 Posts
On September 22 2012 14:03 CanadianSC wrote: Fuzzy been asking you do to this for a while, finally I see it. Only months after it was done... it hasnt been a whole month yet :D | ||
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FuzzySc2
Canada140 Posts
On September 22 2012 11:29 aLtNXZ wrote: I see thanks for the response! I've tried the build a couple times and seems to be very effective, it feels very clean and seems to work very well. Thank you very much for taking the time to write this guide. np glad it helped ^_^ | ||
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sagefreke
United States241 Posts
Is there another way to put pressure on a Protoss who gets an early 3rd without going Mutas? This is what hurts me in ZvP the most right now. Would banerain be good for mid game pressure or is it safer to just try and tech up to broodlord/infestor and hope you can shut down the 3 base toss in the late game? Also for Warp Prism play what is the proper response to this? I'll sometimes run into Toss players who will push their main army to my 3rd but then threaten my nat or main with a Warp Prism and at any point they can just warp in a round of Zealots. It could be that I just need better control. However, sometimes they won't even have to warp in a round of zealots and they will just keep the Warp Prism nearby just so they can force me to leave 4-5 roaches in my main/nat and have a weaker main army to defend the push coming at my 3rd. Good guide. | ||
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