EPTI feel like the build is entirely execution dependent, so one slip-up can basically kill you, but do you feel there's a fool-proof way to hold it like you can with 6-7 gate all-ins?
[G] GM zerg from Complexity academy ZvP guide - Page 3
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shadowboxer
United States224 Posts
I feel like the build is entirely execution dependent, so one slip-up can basically kill you, but do you feel there's a fool-proof way to hold it like you can with 6-7 gate all-ins? | ||
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j.k.l
112 Posts
Please if i may ask continue this for all match ups, including zvz. I want more of these awesome guides. and also when you say protoss takes his third early, when will that be? In game time wise of course. | ||
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FuzzySc2
Canada140 Posts
On September 14 2012 11:15 shadowboxer wrote: Curious what your take on holding immortal/sentry all-in is. There seems to be a few pros doing various things all of which seem to work half of the time or work consistently but without any commentary/replays available. I feel like the build is entirely execution dependent, so one slip-up can basically kill you, but do you feel there's a fool-proof way to hold it like you can with 6-7 gate all-ins? I deal with sentry immortal allin using roach ling, there are technically ways to hard counter it but you have to anticipate it before you can actually scout. The hard counter is just doing roach ling but throwing down like 2-3 spines at each choke (meaning make a couple extra drones and change gass timings slightly) and then fight with the spines + roach ling. As far as hard countering it while playing reactive for me i found the best way is to go roach ling and try to bait as many forcefeilds early on and keep the toss from gaining an advantageous positioning, for example going up the ramp to your 3rd on antiga. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
I'd love to see some replays of roach/ling against this on cloud! :D I really don't like the map, Zerg doesn't really have many options in the midgame except infestor/spine turtle -- roaches suck because of the easily-defended third and mutas suck because he's 1 blink away from his third to his main. And you can't get to his main except through his third. Yeah just more more more replays replays replays please :D :D Edit: You mention using spines at the chokes...do you always do that or is it map dependant? | ||
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FuzzySc2
Canada140 Posts
On September 14 2012 11:33 j.k.l wrote: one of the best zvp guides i have ever read, and i personally have seen and read many guides. Please if i may ask continue this for all match ups, including zvz. I want more of these awesome guides. and also when you say protoss takes his third early, when will that be? In game time wise of course. Basically any build that involves making a 3rd is "early third" when you see a toss going 4 gass it means; immortal sentry allin or taking a 3rd w/ immortal. Other ways to take a third is opening SG then putting down a robo for immortals as you take a 3rd. These timings are are 7:30-9 min. There are some toss ive played that take only 2 gass than drop 3rd down at like 6:30 which is easier to deal with imo because you know that he cant do anything at all and youre free to take 4th super quick and gass up / tech. | ||
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shadowboxer
United States224 Posts
On September 14 2012 12:27 FuzzySc2 wrote: I deal with sentry immortal allin using roach ling, there are technically ways to hard counter it but you have to anticipate it before you can actually scout. The hard counter is just doing roach ling but throwing down like 2-3 spines at each choke (meaning make a couple extra drones and change gass timings slightly) and then fight with the spines + roach ling. As far as hard countering it while playing reactive for me i found the best way is to go roach ling and try to bait as many forcefeilds early on and keep the toss from gaining an advantageous positioning, for example going up the ramp to your 3rd on antiga. Thanks man, very informative. | ||
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FuzzySc2
Canada140 Posts
np | ||
monk
United States8477 Posts
Can I add that I feel creep spread is very important? On different maps, you have to be really adamant in spreading your creep in specific ways. For example, on Daybreak, you have to spread it really far from your third. On Antiga, you have to both spread it past your rocks and connect your natural/third. | ||
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Aelendis
Belgium892 Posts
On September 14 2012 12:31 Mavvie wrote: Fuzzy, have any replays of defending this on Cloud Kingdom? I actually think it's unstoppable if you don't have 4+ spines at your third; Protoss can abuse the terrain that honestly I think that if he gets to your third with his army, you've already lost. I'd love to see some replays of roach/ling against this on cloud! :D I really don't like the map, Zerg doesn't really have many options in the midgame except infestor/spine turtle -- roaches suck because of the easily-defended third and mutas suck because he's 1 blink away from his third to his main. And you can't get to his main except through his third. Yeah just more more more replays replays replays please :D :D Edit: You mention using spines at the chokes...do you always do that or is it map dependant? In the Feast vs viOlet series from the recent IEM, there's a game in which viOlet defends an imo-sentry push with roach-lings on cloud kingdom. Feast is at the third of viOlet with a warp prism but still viOlet manages to take him down. As they're recent and avalaible, you might want to check those replays. Edit: Here's the link of the replays of that group :: http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season7/cologne/sc2/groupstage/download/26347049/ | ||
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j.k.l
112 Posts
EDIT: Also which maps should i veto for this new season, especially considering protoss favoured maps? | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
On September 14 2012 14:56 Aelendis wrote: In the Feast vs viOlet series from the recent IEM, there's a game in which viOlet defends an imo-sentry push with roach-lings on cloud kingdom. Feast is at the third of viOlet with a warp prism but still viOlet manages to take him down. As they're recent and avalaible, you might want to check those replays. Edit: Here's the link of the replays of that group :: http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season7/cologne/sc2/groupstage/download/26347049/ For what it's worth, violet only barely held by the skin of his teeth, despite feast stockpiling money, and apparently executing the build in a less than optimal manner (but I guess that lets him hide it better). | ||
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PhanCast
United States6 Posts
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Babru
196 Posts
I feel that the practise i get in ladder should 100% be relevant to tournaments, but now more then ever protosses and terrans abuse the ramp block and those games simply are irrelevant when it comes to preparing for tournaments. | ||
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j.k.l
112 Posts
On September 15 2012 11:22 Babru wrote: Fuzzy. Do you think neutral depots should be implemented in ladder? I feel that the practise i get in ladder should 100% be relevant to tournaments, but now more then ever protosses and terrans abuse the ramp block and those games simply are irrelevant when it comes to preparing for tournaments. blizz said that it isn't noob friendly so they refuse to add it. typical blizz | ||
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734pot
Australia294 Posts
On September 15 2012 11:58 j.k.l wrote: blizz said that it isn't noob friendly so they refuse to add it. typical blizz Nothing improves my ladder experience more than being pylon blocked at my ramp, it just really makes my day. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On September 15 2012 12:18 734pot wrote: Nothing improves my ladder experience more than being pylon blocked at my ramp, it just really makes my day. Switch to Protoss :D 70% of games are pvz :D Agreed they need to add those stupid depots, it's pretty broken not to have them. Why not make it a burrowed critter? It'd be less confusing than a depot in pvz. | ||
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j.k.l
112 Posts
EDIT: Also which maps should i veto for this new season, especially considering protoss favoured maps? | ||
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enykie
Germany64 Posts
I allways wonderd about the real good timing of the third, finally someone who got deeper into this econ wise  | ||
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FuzzySc2
Canada140 Posts
On September 15 2012 06:35 j.k.l wrote: if he blocks the natural with a pylon, and then you build your second base at the third, can you specify on how queen inject rotation changes? And how saturating bases adjusts to these situations? EDIT: Also which maps should i veto for this new season, especially considering protoss favoured maps? Injects dont change, your first queen injects main then walks to 3rd you start 2nd queen right when first finishes and 3rd queen when your base pops, you just change the saturation to fully saturate main + 3rd first before main + natural and then you treat natural as if its your 3rd base. This includes taking 3rd 4th gass at your 3rd instead of natural because thats what is getting saturated faster EDIT: i veto the new map i dont remember name, tald and entombed. Tald is just a personal pref that i veto, entombed because the spawn locations make the map really shit to play on and the new map because there is no tournament using it in their map pool | ||
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FuzzySc2
Canada140 Posts
On September 15 2012 11:22 Babru wrote: Fuzzy. Do you think neutral depots should be implemented in ladder? I feel that the practise i get in ladder should 100% be relevant to tournaments, but now more then ever protosses and terrans abuse the ramp block and those games simply are irrelevant when it comes to preparing for tournaments. yes they should be but its blizzard, i mean we still have shitty positions on antiga so i dont see them implementing supply depots. i just send a drone to patrol at my ramp if i scout 2 rax or proxy, and vs toss i usually do it if i see super fast forge or weird probe movement as well as players that are more prone to cheese. If youre under gm level though just patrol your ramp vs toss each time and you should be okay ^^ | ||
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