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On September 16 2012 07:48 enykie wrote:Cool Guide, but i miss some timings or the correct reaction if your natural got pylon blocked or even naturl + 3rd are blocked? I allways wonderd about the real good timing of the third, finally someone who got deeper into this econ wise 
:D np ^_^ ill make more guides in the future
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first of all thank you for the awesome guide.
Are there replays of this style ? if they are on the guide I don't know how i missed them.
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On September 18 2012 02:43 Karpfen wrote:
first of all thank you for the awesome guide.
Are there replays of this style ? if they are on the guide I don't know how i missed them.
I might release a replay pack sometime in the near future ^_^
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Gateway first into nexus: With this opening you should send your overlord to his main and see which gass he took, if the gass that is left empty that he did not take has good air space behind it put your overlord behind it and check for his 2nd gass timing. When you see this opening from the protoss you have to change your gass timing and 3rd timing, you will double gass at 32 for faster ling speed and throw down your roach warren at around 40 supply. The benefit protoss gets from going gate first is the speed of the first gateway timing but if you manage to crush it then he is behind because if you crush a toss push you can freedrone up to fully saturated on 3 base and then do a max roach timing on 4gass.
So when you to take third? what's the right timing?
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Absolutely awesome stuff you've posted - can't wait to read your thoughts on ZvZ and ZvT!
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On September 18 2012 20:58 Asolmanx wrote:Show nested quote +Gateway first into nexus: With this opening you should send your overlord to his main and see which gass he took, if the gass that is left empty that he did not take has good air space behind it put your overlord behind it and check for his 2nd gass timing. When you see this opening from the protoss you have to change your gass timing and 3rd timing, you will double gass at 32 for faster ling speed and throw down your roach warren at around 40 supply. The benefit protoss gets from going gate first is the speed of the first gateway timing but if you manage to crush it then he is behind because if you crush a toss push you can freedrone up to fully saturated on 3 base and then do a max roach timing on 4gass.
So when you to take third? what's the right timing?
It depends a lot on the game but you simply delay it to around 40 supply before taking it, You basically want to make sure that youre stable enough to be able to take the 3rd. This will also let you push out your creep so that your natural + 3rd is connected in case he does a mass zealot aggression ^_^
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On September 19 2012 08:20 FuzzySc2 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 18 2012 20:58 Asolmanx wrote:Show nested quote +Gateway first into nexus: With this opening you should send your overlord to his main and see which gass he took, if the gass that is left empty that he did not take has good air space behind it put your overlord behind it and check for his 2nd gass timing. When you see this opening from the protoss you have to change your gass timing and 3rd timing, you will double gass at 32 for faster ling speed and throw down your roach warren at around 40 supply. The benefit protoss gets from going gate first is the speed of the first gateway timing but if you manage to crush it then he is behind because if you crush a toss push you can freedrone up to fully saturated on 3 base and then do a max roach timing on 4gass.
So when you to take third? what's the right timing? It depends a lot on the game but you simply delay it to around 40 supply before taking it, You basically want to make sure that youre stable enough to be able to take the 3rd. This will also let you push out your creep so that your natural + 3rd is connected in case he does a mass zealot aggression ^_^
I see. Thanks.
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In the mid-game section, one of the options you state is the roach/ling max. That's what I usually do.
But I've heard that this is an all-in? Is this true? I HAVE had a hard time getting back into the game when it fails.
Can you only do it against early 3rd? What about normal 3rd, what do you do then?
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FuzzySc2,
Any chance you or one of your pals at Col will do a Terran guide? zerg is already so good... :D
cheers and great guide
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On September 19 2012 21:56 djack0666 wrote:
FuzzySc2,
Any chance you or one of your pals at Col will do a Terran guide? zerg is already so good... :D
cheers and great guide
I dont think any of them are going to release a guide sorry 
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On September 19 2012 21:49 gronnelg wrote:
In the mid-game section, one of the options you state is the roach/ling max. That's what I usually do.
But I've heard that this is an all-in? Is this true? I HAVE had a hard time getting back into the game when it fails.
Can you only do it against early 3rd? What about normal 3rd, what do you do then?
Yes the roach ling max is an allin, if it doesnt do damage you cannot transition. This is because of the amount of gass youre investing into roachs + staying on 3 base. If this push fails you dont got the gass or the tech paths to transition. If the toss is doing something weird like turtling on 2 base then taking a 3rd i wouldnt do this push otherwise it has a chance to work vs any type of 3rd. Good protoss will not lose to this because it is easy to defend vs now, but if they mess up with FF or have bad macro then it will still work ^_^
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On September 20 2012 08:02 FuzzySc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 21:49 gronnelg wrote:
In the mid-game section, one of the options you state is the roach/ling max. That's what I usually do.
But I've heard that this is an all-in? Is this true? I HAVE had a hard time getting back into the game when it fails.
Can you only do it against early 3rd? What about normal 3rd, what do you do then? Yes the roach ling max is an allin, if it doesnt do damage you cannot transition. This is because of the amount of gass youre investing into roachs + staying on 3 base. If this push fails you dont got the gass or the tech paths to transition. If the toss is doing something weird like turtling on 2 base then taking a 3rd i wouldnt do this push otherwise it has a chance to work vs any type of 3rd. Good protoss will not lose to this because it is easy to defend vs now, but if they mess up with FF or have bad macro then it will still work ^_^
Yeah, Fuzzy is completely right! :D
I smile when Zergs do it, because I know that I will hit a HUGE timing with 3 +3 colossi, and a maxed army of gateway/immortal/colo with like, 8 full energy sentries. Huge 3 base pushes, you basically have to kill Protoss's third or else you lose. It's also really easy to scout lol, just chrono out immortals and it's an easy hold.
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This guide is really weak, IMO. Seems more of a blatant social media plug than a guide. What have you shared that a gold leaguer couldn't?
User was temp banned for this post.
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On September 20 2012 09:27 sanddbox_sc2 wrote:
This guide is really weak, IMO. Seems more of a blatant social media plug than a guide. What have you shared that a gold leaguer couldn't?
Looking at the reception it got i think that it did provide information that a gold leaguer couldnt IMO
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So a roach ling max is an all-in. That makes me a sad panda.
What is the typical mid-game flow then? Camping until deathball? I really like that mid-game push, because it gives an additional stage to zvp, instead of camping til deathball -> gg :/
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On September 20 2012 20:02 gronnelg wrote:
So a roach ling max is an all-in. That makes me a sad panda.
What is the typical mid-game flow then? Camping until deathball? I really like that mid-game push, because it gives an additional stage to zvp, instead of camping til deathball -> gg :/
Zerg has 3 (arguably 4) ways to play ZvP midgame.
1) roach/ling max, yeah all in. Will work up until ~mid-top diamond. Keep in mind maxing roach/ling can be necessary to stop various 2 base all ins (mainly colossus all in)
2) mutas into 5 base hive. Just get mutas then take your fifth (take your fourth as soon as no gateway all in). Harass him a lot, counterattacks, if he moves out then basetrade and laugh
3) infestor/spine turtle. Just mass infestor/spine/ling on 4 bases and get a fast greater spire.
4) BANERAIN! Idk, speedbanes and bane bombs on mineral lines, yada yada.
Just remember that lings are free: I lost a game because 40 lings ran by and sniped ONE colossus and a few probes. I couldn't move out for another minute, which bought him time for broods.
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On September 20 2012 20:02 gronnelg wrote:
So a roach ling max is an all-in. That makes me a sad panda.
What is the typical mid-game flow then? Camping until deathball? I really like that mid-game push, because it gives an additional stage to zvp, instead of camping til deathball -> gg :/
yea. pretty much. If you fail to stop protoss third, all the gas you spend on roaches, you will not have enough tech to deal with colossus. Or anything else. Once they stablize and go mothership, your corruptor count would be very low, same with your infestors. Fuzzy points it out well in this guide that I've been following. After 30 roaches, you should stop and go lings instead to save gas for tech. If your initial forces deal damage like snipping sentries or they use too many forcefields, I would make another round (10-15 roaches) to replace some lost roaches and to put more pressure. Having lots of lings are good too, they can really distrupt the immortal AI into shooting the lings instead.
as for midgame flow. lets say you don't all in, put some pressure with roach/ling and force protoss to make units. You put your infestation pit down, take your 4th. continue to go 200/200 while saturating your 4th. You should have around 5-6 infestors with roach/ling 200/200. When you're on 4 base full saturation you go hive tech and throw down 10+ spines (replace drones).
They should be pushing you around this time so you need to land some good fungals in the heart of their death ball while getting a full surround. This requires you to split your forces as you see protoss moving towards you. Try to engage as he hits your spine wall. This means you need to place spine wall in right location. Once he's in range of spines, you fungal and don't let him go. If he retreats with the unfungaled part of the army then you get a free piece and for certain you can tech to broodlords safely. If he fights then you have advantage with surround and spine wall.
Hope that helps. Maybe fuzzy can touch up on it
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Edit: Nvm, I'm herp derping all over the place today. Can't read.
When do you usually take your 3rd if it is delayed vs FFE, I usually get it around the 30ish supply mark if it is delayed but when do you usually get it?
Great guide overall, very good reminder to all Zergs about their mechanics in the match-up.
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Great guide.
Nothing cool and new, just a specific detailed list of the little things people need to be paying more attention to with a very standard opener.
I personally had to hash these details out a few months ago with a friend. Took a few hours to do and I was frustrated with the lack of any decent guides on the most basic ZvP opener out there. This fills a hole that has been around for a while.
Thanks!
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Awesome guide! Could you talk about transitioning into the mid/late game a bit? I understand the early game well enough, but don't understand how to transition very well. It seems like once I tech to infestors, protoss has the initiative and can tech/expand/attack while I slog my way towards broodlords. I've seen some zerg players do midgame attacks once they get infestors and/or corruptors, but I don't really have a great grasp on these attacks. Could you speak to them?
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EPT
