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Hi im a grandmaster zerg that plays for complexity academy, I am currently living in the Complexity teamhouse in Houston texas and streaming everyday with Commentary. I will be doing guides for each matchup that consist of builds and how to play reactivly to what you scout in each matchup. Info: www.twitch.tv/fuzzysc2 www.twitter.com/fuzzysc2 https://twitter.com/compLexityLive http://www.complexitygaming.com/ I will be covering ZvP in this post ^_^ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Table of contents: 1. Openings 2. Warren + evo timing 3. Extra gass timings 4. Macro hatch timing 5. Overlord placements 6. Scouting and reactions 7. Midgame transitions 8. Dealing with cheese Opening + Show Spoiler +There are a number of openings you can use in certain situations vs protoss. These openings require you to send out 2 drones out if he is camping your natural with his probe, one to your natural and one to your 3rd build your hatchery at whichever base isnt blocked, if you build your 2nd base at your 3rd make sure to send your 2nd ovy from the natural to your 3rd to prevent cannon rush. If he starts making pylons at the 3rd to cannon rush it make 4 lings before queen and it should time out fast enough to stop the cannon rush. If it doesnt seem like it will make it in time wait for 1 cannon to come up and cancel the hatch and just take your natural. (he invests a lot more in cannoning + pylon than you do canceling hatch and rebuilding it)
My prefered opening: 9ovy - 15p - 16 hatch - 16ovy - 16queen - 4lings - 21ovy - queue 2nd queen - (start 3rd queen when natural pops) drone to 36 - ovy - 3rd hatch - drone to 40 - double gass - ovy on 42. Queen inject rotation - first queen injects main then walks to your 2nd base, 2nd queen that pops out of main stays in main to inject for rest of game - 3rd queen that pops out of natural lays 2 creep tumors then walks to the 3rd and injects it for the rest of the game.
This build takes the 3rd a lot slower but it ends up working out a lot better eco wise because the fast 3rd doesnt actually give you an economic boost, you get more drones out faster with the slower 3rd and since youre not going to be saturated on 2 base by the time the 3rd is done anyways youre not losing mining time. This build also lets all timings be about 10s faster than normal builds which is extremly good for something like a roach max timing. With this build you should be taking gass at about 5:45-5:50 which is 40-44 supply which with the fast 3rd build would be at 6:00. This build is also very safe vs the MC allin (7gates 1 gass) if you throw down your roach warren right when you throw down double gass, you will have a much easier time defending vs the push. This opening also alows your 3rd queen that you start at your natural right when it pops to lay down 2 creep tumors letting you push out your creep helping you with any 2 base timings that the toss might be hitting you with.
Fast 3rd build: 9ovy - 15p - 16 hatch - 16ovy - 16queen - 4lings -queue 2nd queen - drone to 25 - throw down 3rd base (make sure drone arrives right when you hit 300min) - 24ovy - 30ovy - 34 queen - double gass at 44 - 42ovy Queen inject rotation: 1st queen injects main then walks to 2nd base, 2nd queen pops stays in main rest of game to inject main hatchery. 1st queen injects natural one time then walks to 3rd (by the time the inject pops from your 2nd base your 3rd queen will spawn at the same time and be ready to inject that base and your 2nd queen can inject your 3rd so you dont miss any inject timing).
I beleive that this build is worse eco wise than the first build because you will get less drones and dont benefit from having the hatch up super quickly. That being said some people feel a lot more comfy taking their 3rd a lot quicker so it can simply be a preferance. This build will be able to stop allins but it is slightly harder to do, the only benefit i see from this is they opened gateway first into taking their natural and pumped out 3-5 zealots and sent them to your 3rd which you would have creep and a queen there already to be able to defend with slow lings while the slower 3rd you would have to cancel it.
Roach warren + evo chamber: + Show Spoiler +This doesn't change in either game you have to scout and be reactive with these timings. When you scout the toss with your overlord you have to position it at their natural and check for their additional gass timings, If toss has not taken their 3rd or 4th gass by 6min you have to throw down your roach warren and delay your evo chamber, if they have taken their 3rd + 4th gass you can delay your warren and evo chamber to 7min ingame time. If only a 3rd gass is taken throw down evo chamber and roach warren at around the 6:30 mark. Extra gass timings: + Show Spoiler +Take your 3rd gass when you start speed Take your 4th gass when you start lair your 5th and 6th gass SHOULDN't be taken until after you have established that the protoss is taking a 3rd base. This is because any 2 base timing has to be dealt with roach + ling, if you take your 5th+6th gass too early your mineral / gass deposit will be uneven and you will end up not having enough roaches because you will be floating 600 gass and have 0 minerals. These gass are only to be taken if you plan to go higher in tech and invest in late game play, if you plan on going for the roach max then you should stay on 4 gass because that is all that is needed to support mass roach + lings. Macro hatch timing: + Show Spoiler +You have to build your macro hatch based upon drone count, assuming that you only built the 4 lings and 3 queens you should be dropping the macro hatch at around 60-70 supply which is 52-62 drones, if you are bad with injects then drop a macro hatch each time you hit 1000minerals. Make sure that youre doing this by drone count and not supply if you have had to make units to defend vs an allin from the protoss. Overlord placements: + Show Spoiler +First overlord flys to the natural of the toss, if a 4 player map like antiga fly your overlord to the closest enemy natural to your main base. 2nd overlord goes over your natural and 3rd overlord goes to their 3rd base. Make sure to always position your overlords close to dead space or ledges so that if he send a stalker over you can move your overlord and prevent it from dying. After the first 3 overlords you should send overlords over ledges that have a possibility of a probe building a pylon or hiding, always keep your overlords safe and dont spread out too many incase they go pheonix.
Scouting and the proper reactions: + Show Spoiler +Your first overlord goes to the protoss natural to see if it is a forge first or a nexus first or gateway first. Gateway first into nexus: With this opening you should send your overlord to his main and see which gass he took, if the gass that is left empty that he did not take has good air space behind it put your overlord behind it and check for his 2nd gass timing. When you see this opening from the protoss you have to change your gass timing and 3rd timing, you will double gass at 32 for faster ling speed and throw down your roach warren at around 40 supply. The benefit protoss gets from going gate first is the speed of the first gateway timing but if you manage to crush it then he is behind because if you crush a toss push you can freedrone up to fully saturated on 3 base and then do a max roach timing on 4gass.
Gateway + cyber into nexus: This opening has 2 transitions, an allin from 1 base and taking their nexus, when you see that they are putting down their cyber before nexus stick your overlord over their natural and see if theyre throwing down a nexus. If they do not throw down a nexus by 5min then it is an allin (use your lings to sit outside his base after searching for the probe) if the toss does not build a sentry but instead goes for a stalker 2nd throw down the 1st spine at your natural and wait to see if he makes a sentry as his 3rd unit or throws down his nexus. When youre going vs this you need to throw down a evo chamber at 6 min if he does not take his natural in case of DTs. If he is 4 gating you the key is to throw down mass spines and defend with spine ling queen untill your speed finishes (single gass as soon as you find out that he is allining and not taking his nexus). If he throws down his nexus then treat it the same way you do gateway into nexus.
Nexus first + Forge first: When you scout that he went forge first or nexus first send your overlord straight into their main and then sit it there untill you see his gass timing, if he takes 1 gass instead of 2 sit it there for another 10s, if he doesnt take his gass move your overlord to the natural if he is still on 1 gass he is going the gateway allin and you need to make a roach warren asap, if you opened with the first build listed then you should take double gass at 36 supply just in case and a roach warren at the same time, get speed as soon as you get 100 gass and start making lings, try to deny his forward pylon and then put all gass into roach and all minerals into lings. This push will be held off if you keep your money low and constantly larva inject. If he takes both gass when you scout his main then move to his natural and sit over his gasses. 4 gasses means immortall allin on 2 base or a fast 3rd, 3 gasses means blink stalker allin / dt / air so put down a spore at important locations and make sure youre active with your lings to see if he is going to move out with his units. If a protoss is on 2 gass and is doing pressure with 1 stalker and mass zealot there is a possibility of him going DTs from 2 gass, make roachs to defend vs the zealots and throw down spores at all your bases to make sure you dont die.
Mid game transitions: + Show Spoiler +Roach/ling max: If the toss is still on 2 base you should do the roach ling max make a retention of roachs (about 30-40) then mass speedlings, this allows you to put down a tech like muta or infestor while keeping them trapped on 2 base (this is something you do when you beat a 2 base allin and the toss wont leave) This requires you to be constant with your injects and not lose your roachs and constantly replace your lings. If he took a fast 3rd you can roach ling max and kill the toss, using the 1st or 2nd build it can lead into a roach max (you should be at or near 200/200 by 11min if youre not at that supply at this time then youre either messing up the build or missing injects.
Muta: If the toss is taking a fast 3rd you can throw down your 5+6th gass and take your 4th super quick and throw down double spire when lair pops, when you saturate 3 base start making waves of lings to get map control, be active with these lings and if the toss is turtling in his base you can make a wave of 10-15 drones to your 4th and take 7+8th gass. Double up your mutas and melee + ground armor and start massing mutas. For this style to work you have to not miss injects and be very active on the map with mutas and lings and to trade as much as possible, when you have a chance to jump on his sentrys with lings + mutas try to kill them all off, at this point it is your tell to start making banelings because he will not have enough gass to constantly make stalkers + replace sentry + tech to templar. This build requires you to hit and kill them in a window of time if youre too inactive with this the toss will power on 3 base and simply over run you.
Drops: Start drop + ovy speed as soon as you hit lair and throw down your 4th base + all gass on 3 base as well as an infestation pit (double evo for melee + ground armor and baneling nest) make about 20-30 roachs and then start making mass speedling. You should be about 160 supply by the time drops is finished time it out so all your units and ovys meet outside his main base and load them all up. Fly an empty ovy in first to check if he has stalkers there, if he does not then drop into his main and focus down anything you can; nexus, probes, tech, pylons. If you cant drop his main then continue to make lings and then make a mass amount of banelings and attack any area with roach ling + bane drop. Youre doing this all while transitioning into infestors, making nothing but lings for a 1-2min means you will pool up 1000+ gass and you can make a buttload of infestors right after. Your 2nd push will be infestors + mass lings and any roaches you maintained at his 3rd base to continue to apply pressure while you tech into hive. If you manage to do alot of damage make an ultralisk cavern and go ultra ling bane infestors and crush him as he trys to take his 4th, other wise start broodlord tech and taking bases around the map.
Turtle: This is my least favorite style, when you spine up and make mass infestor + spine crawler while teching into hive for brood lords. My concept for any matchup is if you make units you have to be active with them because otherwise its money that could of been saved up and used later on for something more usefull. But some toss dont know how to react to this style so you can get a mass amount of broodlord infestor and then do a 200/200 timing and fight the toss army straight up Roach hydra corruptor: I dont recommend doing this style as it requires you to be 100% of the time active on the map with your units constantly picking engagements and not missing injects. The key to this style is having your roach as buffer - 10 corruptors and about 10-15 hydras, you constantly have to replenish the number of units you lose (hydra corruptor) to maintain that count the whole entire time and constantly pick fights to pick off collosus/stalker and waste FF energy.
Dealing with cheese: + Show Spoiler +Proxy gateways: dont throw down your 2nd base, as soon as your pool pops make a spine in your mineral line, the more the better. Make mass lings and a queen, you will have to use drones to fight the zealots along with your lings and it comes down to micro. If you constantly have problems with it then you need to scout with a drone at 10 supply the areas where a proxy gates will most likely be built
Cannon rush: when you go to drop your natural down you should take a drone to patrol at the ramp to prevent the 3 pylon block. If he manages to get the 3 pylon block down take your gass right away and start a roach warren, start making mass roachs push down your ramp and kill off the cannons, take your natural and send your roachs over to his natural (ignore pylons that dont need to be killed right then) and make a wave of lings (4 lings) to kill the remaining pylons. The investment he made into making the pylongs + cannon and the extra cannons he has to make to make sure you dont kill him with the roachs actually evens out the game, play the game reactive from that point on using what i wrote in this guide and you should be fine. These games do turn gimicky and its not 100% possible to give you every situation so just try to scout him as much as possible and always focus on making drones at every point that you can.
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O_O
Just gonna say thanks really fast cause I have a lot of reading and watching to do now !!!!
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After switching to zerg this helps thanks Fuzzy :D
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Seems like a good guide, will definitly read it. However I think this belongs in the SC2 Strategy section.
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should be on strategy forum
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On September 13 2012 04:39 MrMedic wrote: After switching to zerg this helps thanks Fuzzy :D np ^_^
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On September 13 2012 04:38 BongChambers wrote: O_O
Just gonna say thanks really fast cause I have a lot of reading and watching to do now !!!! enjoy 
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About time you start streaming!!! I look forward to seeing you tear up all the big tourneys soon!
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Fuzzy has some spectacular ZvP from everything that I've seen of his. Definitely a worthy player to check out a guide from.
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good shit from my fellow canadian zerg.
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nice, but unless you morph this post into sonething more substantial, it may be moved into the strategy section, I've heard you talk about doing more, so just make this thread your central hub
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United States8476 Posts
Silly fuzzy wuzzy ^^. moving to strategy forum.
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On September 13 2012 05:34 Holcan wrote: and....its dead yuuuuup
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United States8476 Posts
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i hate playing vs. fuzzy... 
read his guide
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On September 13 2012 04:36 FuzzySc2 wrote: Turtle: This is my least favorite style, when you spine up and make mass infestor + spine crawler while teching into hive for brood lords. My concept for any matchup is if you make units you have to be active with them because otherwise its money that could of been saved up and used later on for something more usefull. But some toss dont know how to react to this style so you can get a mass amount of broodlord infestor and then do a 200/200 timing and fight the toss army straight up
Could you also help out Toss a bit ? I wonder how to deal perfectly with the Zerg Turtling after i took my Third and going for Spine/infestor defense and 12min Hive into Mass BL's.
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nice guide fuzzy. This definately helped me out with some ZvP timings I couldn't figure out myself
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On September 13 2012 06:18 CrystaX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 04:36 FuzzySc2 wrote: Turtle: This is my least favorite style, when you spine up and make mass infestor + spine crawler while teching into hive for brood lords. My concept for any matchup is if you make units you have to be active with them because otherwise its money that could of been saved up and used later on for something more usefull. But some toss dont know how to react to this style so you can get a mass amount of broodlord infestor and then do a 200/200 timing and fight the toss army straight up
Could you also help out Toss a bit  ? I wonder how to deal perfectly with the Zerg Turtling after i took my Third and going for Spine/infestor defense and 12min Hive into Mass BL's. If the zerg is doing nothing but putting down spines and teching, all you have to do is not do the stalker rotation you usually do and get all your tech out before investing into units that can be massed later on, basically what this means is you can get all your heavy gass units + upgrades right off the bat instead of having to invest money into stalkers where in a normal game they would be required to "stay alive". Youre of course going to make stalkers but its just a different timing. That and take a 4th base ^_^. When you maxx out at around 14 min with archon stalker collosus mothership you can push out kill the Z army and be able to replace w/e you lost while the Z cant remake his army because of how much he invested into spines and ect. If you miss this timing you might lose though ^_^
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On September 13 2012 04:36 FuzzySc2 wrote: If the zerg is doing nothing but putting down spines and teching, all you have to do is not do the stalker rotation you usually do and get all your tech out before investing into units that can be massed later on, basically what this means is you can get all your heavy gass units + upgrades right off the bat instead of having to invest money into stalkers where in a normal game they would be required to "stay alive". Youre of course going to make stalkers but its just a different timing. That and take a 4th base ^_^. When you maxx out at around 14 min with archon stalker collosus mothership you can push out kill the Z army and be able to replace w/e you lost while the Z cant remake his army because of how much he invested into spines and ect. If you miss this timing you might lose though ^_^ At most part i try do this except the part with Pushing at min 14? I can get fast Colossi and Fleat beacon but Mothership needs 4min+ for the vortex to be ready from the moment on i decide to make fleat beacon ( and i can be 100% sure what Z does at around min 12 ). So i usually have 4th base with fast 7/8th Gas, Double Ups and Colossi starting at min 12 which leads in a push Timing around min 16(robodock 60 seconds, 2 Colossi 120 secs, moveing out) vs Mass Spine/BL/Infestor ._.
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fuzzy very good steal his builds and brain if you want to be op )
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On September 13 2012 06:52 CrystaX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 04:36 FuzzySc2 wrote: If the zerg is doing nothing but putting down spines and teching, all you have to do is not do the stalker rotation you usually do and get all your tech out before investing into units that can be massed later on, basically what this means is you can get all your heavy gass units + upgrades right off the bat instead of having to invest money into stalkers where in a normal game they would be required to "stay alive". Youre of course going to make stalkers but its just a different timing. That and take a 4th base ^_^. When you maxx out at around 14 min with archon stalker collosus mothership you can push out kill the Z army and be able to replace w/e you lost while the Z cant remake his army because of how much he invested into spines and ect. If you miss this timing you might lose though ^_^ At most part i try do this except the part with Pushing at min 14? I can get fast Colossi and Fleat beacon but Mothership needs 4min+ for the vortex to be ready from the moment on i decide to make fleat beacon ( and i can be 100% sure what Z does at around min 12 ). So i usually have 4th base with fast 7/8th Gas, Double Ups and Colossi starting at min 12 which leads in a push Timing around min 16(robodock 60 seconds, 2 Colossi 120 secs, moveing out) vs Mass Spine/BL/Infestor ._. youre pushing way too late, try fixing some timings on your tech and ect
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On September 13 2012 07:05 viPro- wrote:fuzzy very good steal his builds and brain if you want to be op  ) not sure how i feel about people stealing my brain but they are free to copy the builds :D
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This guide's pretty awesome and I like it, but I don't think it covers much that isn't covered in belial's guide. :/ It's interesting to have a new perspective and opening, but it seems like a less-comprehensive version of those guides. I still like it, and I love it when the best players in the world post guides! Always interesting to read, but again i feel like its already been covered 
Reps will be awesome to watch though :D thanks for the writeup also! It's a lot of work writing guides
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On September 13 2012 08:17 Mavvie wrote:This guide's pretty awesome and I like it, but I don't think it covers much that isn't covered in belial's guide. :/ It's interesting to have a new perspective and opening, but it seems like a less-comprehensive version of those guides. I still like it, and I love it when the best players in the world post guides! Always interesting to read, but again i feel like its already been covered  Reps will be awesome to watch though :D thanks for the writeup also! It's a lot of work writing guides ill work on upping the content, and replays :D
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FUZZY! you FINALLY made a guide! Thank you so much! It was great seeing you kick ass at MLG
(This is EndOfLine btw)
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On September 13 2012 09:12 BuiBui wrote: FUZZY! you FINALLY made a guide! Thank you so much! It was great seeing you kick ass at MLG
(This is EndOfLine btw) haha np ^_^ ill be making more if this one gets good reception xD
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On September 13 2012 09:19 FuzzySc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 09:12 BuiBui wrote: FUZZY! you FINALLY made a guide! Thank you so much! It was great seeing you kick ass at MLG
(This is EndOfLine btw) haha np ^_^ ill be making more if this one gets good reception xD
Will be trying out you stuff!
EDIT: This guide is amazing! Looking forward to the zvz and zvt!!!
EDIT EDIT: with your open, played 2 protoss and 1 terran, ruined them both!!
Question: how much supply should I have by 8min? 65? 70? 75? 80?
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I'm too bitter to read this guide, Fuzzy has beat me in ZvZ too many times! haha <3
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On September 13 2012 09:20 BuiBui wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 09:19 FuzzySc2 wrote:On September 13 2012 09:12 BuiBui wrote: FUZZY! you FINALLY made a guide! Thank you so much! It was great seeing you kick ass at MLG
(This is EndOfLine btw) haha np ^_^ ill be making more if this one gets good reception xD Will be trying out you stuff! EDIT: This guide is amazing! Looking forward to the zvz and zvt!!! EDIT EDIT: with your open, played 2 protoss and 1 terran, ruined them both!! Question: how much supply should I have by 8min? 65? 70? 75? 80? depends a lot on the game but 75-80 if you made nothing but drones and 3 queens
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On September 13 2012 22:55 TangSC wrote: I'm too bitter to read this guide, Fuzzy has beat me in ZvZ too many times! haha <3 its okay as long as youre not protoss ^_^
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On September 13 2012 23:28 FuzzySc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 09:20 BuiBui wrote:On September 13 2012 09:19 FuzzySc2 wrote:On September 13 2012 09:12 BuiBui wrote: FUZZY! you FINALLY made a guide! Thank you so much! It was great seeing you kick ass at MLG
(This is EndOfLine btw) haha np ^_^ ill be making more if this one gets good reception xD Will be trying out you stuff! EDIT: This guide is amazing! Looking forward to the zvz and zvt!!! EDIT EDIT: with your open, played 2 protoss and 1 terran, ruined them both!! Question: how much supply should I have by 8min? 65? 70? 75? 80? depends a lot on the game but 75-80 if you made nothing but drones and 3 queens
excellent. So far This build feels really really strong! Won every zvp game so far :D
What are your OL timings after 42?
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I think your playstyle is very intelligent. Its something i will be copying .
I was wondering if you could post some macro benchmarks or replays? It would really help me determine what i need to work on.
Thanks for the guide, will hope to see some on ZvT and ZvZ ^^
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Just wondering, is such a late third actually beneficial? I can't believe it is, and I see no reason not to as you're safe until 8:00, and each extra supply of unit you can get out by then helps tremendously.
I'll compare the two once I get home, but i don't see the benefits.
Edit: you say that it better to go slow third? O.o I trust you, but I won't believe it until I see it
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On September 14 2012 07:44 Mavvie wrote:Just wondering, is such a late third actually beneficial? I can't believe it is, and I see no reason not to as you're safe until 8:00, and each extra supply of unit you can get out by then helps tremendously. I'll compare the two once I get home, but i don't see the benefits. Edit: you say that it better to go slow third? O.o I trust you, but I won't believe it until I see it 
Im pretty sure he explained it in the opening. You get a third slower but in exchange you get drones faster, so you get more mining time. The third doesn't boost your economy just boosts your larva. With a fast 3rd you don't actually get 2 bases fully saturated. But with this build you get 2 bases fully saturated by the time the third is done.
I've tried it out and it seems better to me. But i could be wrong.
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On September 14 2012 08:56 TobinYJ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 07:44 Mavvie wrote:Just wondering, is such a late third actually beneficial? I can't believe it is, and I see no reason not to as you're safe until 8:00, and each extra supply of unit you can get out by then helps tremendously. I'll compare the two once I get home, but i don't see the benefits. Edit: you say that it better to go slow third? O.o I trust you, but I won't believe it until I see it  Im pretty sure he explained it in the opening. You get a third slower but in exchange you get drones faster, so you get more mining time. The third doesn't boost your economy just boosts your larva. With a fast 3rd you don't actually get 2 bases fully saturated. But with this build you get 2 bases fully saturated by the time the third is done. I've tried it out and it seems better to me. But i could be wrong.
Agreed.
Seems very larve effiicient
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This is such a great post, thanks for taking the time to lay it out for us - really makes some of the decision making paths very clear.
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Great guide! One question though:
If he goes for the Gateway into Nexus push: At what point should I stop droning and start unit production?
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Curious what your take on holding immortal/sentry all-in is. There seems to be a few pros doing various things all of which seem to work half of the time or work consistently but without any commentary/replays available.
I feel like the build is entirely execution dependent, so one slip-up can basically kill you, but do you feel there's a fool-proof way to hold it like you can with 6-7 gate all-ins?
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one of the best zvp guides i have ever read, and i personally have seen and read many guides.
Please if i may ask continue this for all match ups, including zvz. I want more of these awesome guides.
and also when you say protoss takes his third early, when will that be? In game time wise of course.
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On September 14 2012 11:15 shadowboxer wrote: Curious what your take on holding immortal/sentry all-in is. There seems to be a few pros doing various things all of which seem to work half of the time or work consistently but without any commentary/replays available.
I feel like the build is entirely execution dependent, so one slip-up can basically kill you, but do you feel there's a fool-proof way to hold it like you can with 6-7 gate all-ins?
I deal with sentry immortal allin using roach ling, there are technically ways to hard counter it but you have to anticipate it before you can actually scout. The hard counter is just doing roach ling but throwing down like 2-3 spines at each choke (meaning make a couple extra drones and change gass timings slightly) and then fight with the spines + roach ling. As far as hard countering it while playing reactive for me i found the best way is to go roach ling and try to bait as many forcefeilds early on and keep the toss from gaining an advantageous positioning, for example going up the ramp to your 3rd on antiga.
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Fuzzy, have any replays of defending this on Cloud Kingdom? I actually think it's unstoppable if you don't have 4+ spines at your third; Protoss can abuse the terrain that honestly I think that if he gets to your third with his army, you've already lost.
I'd love to see some replays of roach/ling against this on cloud! :D
I really don't like the map, Zerg doesn't really have many options in the midgame except infestor/spine turtle -- roaches suck because of the easily-defended third and mutas suck because he's 1 blink away from his third to his main. And you can't get to his main except through his third.
Yeah just more more more replays replays replays please :D :D
Edit: You mention using spines at the chokes...do you always do that or is it map dependant?
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On September 14 2012 11:33 j.k.l wrote: one of the best zvp guides i have ever read, and i personally have seen and read many guides.
Please if i may ask continue this for all match ups, including zvz. I want more of these awesome guides.
and also when you say protoss takes his third early, when will that be? In game time wise of course. Basically any build that involves making a 3rd is "early third" when you see a toss going 4 gass it means; immortal sentry allin or taking a 3rd w/ immortal. Other ways to take a third is opening SG then putting down a robo for immortals as you take a 3rd. These timings are are 7:30-9 min. There are some toss ive played that take only 2 gass than drop 3rd down at like 6:30 which is easier to deal with imo because you know that he cant do anything at all and youre free to take 4th super quick and gass up / tech.
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On September 14 2012 12:27 FuzzySc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 11:15 shadowboxer wrote: Curious what your take on holding immortal/sentry all-in is. There seems to be a few pros doing various things all of which seem to work half of the time or work consistently but without any commentary/replays available.
I feel like the build is entirely execution dependent, so one slip-up can basically kill you, but do you feel there's a fool-proof way to hold it like you can with 6-7 gate all-ins? I deal with sentry immortal allin using roach ling, there are technically ways to hard counter it but you have to anticipate it before you can actually scout. The hard counter is just doing roach ling but throwing down like 2-3 spines at each choke (meaning make a couple extra drones and change gass timings slightly) and then fight with the spines + roach ling. As far as hard countering it while playing reactive for me i found the best way is to go roach ling and try to bait as many forcefeilds early on and keep the toss from gaining an advantageous positioning, for example going up the ramp to your 3rd on antiga.
Thanks man, very informative.
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On September 14 2012 12:31 shadowboxer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 12:27 FuzzySc2 wrote:On September 14 2012 11:15 shadowboxer wrote: Curious what your take on holding immortal/sentry all-in is. There seems to be a few pros doing various things all of which seem to work half of the time or work consistently but without any commentary/replays available.
I feel like the build is entirely execution dependent, so one slip-up can basically kill you, but do you feel there's a fool-proof way to hold it like you can with 6-7 gate all-ins? I deal with sentry immortal allin using roach ling, there are technically ways to hard counter it but you have to anticipate it before you can actually scout. The hard counter is just doing roach ling but throwing down like 2-3 spines at each choke (meaning make a couple extra drones and change gass timings slightly) and then fight with the spines + roach ling. As far as hard countering it while playing reactive for me i found the best way is to go roach ling and try to bait as many forcefeilds early on and keep the toss from gaining an advantageous positioning, for example going up the ramp to your 3rd on antiga. Thanks man, very informative. np
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United States8476 Posts
On September 14 2012 12:31 shadowboxer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 12:27 FuzzySc2 wrote:On September 14 2012 11:15 shadowboxer wrote: Curious what your take on holding immortal/sentry all-in is. There seems to be a few pros doing various things all of which seem to work half of the time or work consistently but without any commentary/replays available.
I feel like the build is entirely execution dependent, so one slip-up can basically kill you, but do you feel there's a fool-proof way to hold it like you can with 6-7 gate all-ins? I deal with sentry immortal allin using roach ling, there are technically ways to hard counter it but you have to anticipate it before you can actually scout. The hard counter is just doing roach ling but throwing down like 2-3 spines at each choke (meaning make a couple extra drones and change gass timings slightly) and then fight with the spines + roach ling. As far as hard countering it while playing reactive for me i found the best way is to go roach ling and try to bait as many forcefeilds early on and keep the toss from gaining an advantageous positioning, for example going up the ramp to your 3rd on antiga. Thanks man, very informative. Can I add that I feel creep spread is very important? On different maps, you have to be really adamant in spreading your creep in specific ways. For example, on Daybreak, you have to spread it really far from your third. On Antiga, you have to both spread it past your rocks and connect your natural/third.
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On September 14 2012 12:31 Mavvie wrote: Fuzzy, have any replays of defending this on Cloud Kingdom? I actually think it's unstoppable if you don't have 4+ spines at your third; Protoss can abuse the terrain that honestly I think that if he gets to your third with his army, you've already lost.
I'd love to see some replays of roach/ling against this on cloud! :D
I really don't like the map, Zerg doesn't really have many options in the midgame except infestor/spine turtle -- roaches suck because of the easily-defended third and mutas suck because he's 1 blink away from his third to his main. And you can't get to his main except through his third.
Yeah just more more more replays replays replays please :D :D
Edit: You mention using spines at the chokes...do you always do that or is it map dependant?
In the Feast vs viOlet series from the recent IEM, there's a game in which viOlet defends an imo-sentry push with roach-lings on cloud kingdom. Feast is at the third of viOlet with a warp prism but still viOlet manages to take him down. As they're recent and avalaible, you might want to check those replays.
Edit: Here's the link of the replays of that group :: http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season7/cologne/sc2/groupstage/download/26347049/
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if he blocks the natural with a pylon, and then you build your second base at the third, can you specify on how queen inject rotation changes? And how saturating bases adjusts to these situations?
EDIT: Also which maps should i veto for this new season, especially considering protoss favoured maps?
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On September 14 2012 14:56 Aelendis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 12:31 Mavvie wrote: Fuzzy, have any replays of defending this on Cloud Kingdom? I actually think it's unstoppable if you don't have 4+ spines at your third; Protoss can abuse the terrain that honestly I think that if he gets to your third with his army, you've already lost.
I'd love to see some replays of roach/ling against this on cloud! :D
I really don't like the map, Zerg doesn't really have many options in the midgame except infestor/spine turtle -- roaches suck because of the easily-defended third and mutas suck because he's 1 blink away from his third to his main. And you can't get to his main except through his third.
Yeah just more more more replays replays replays please :D :D
Edit: You mention using spines at the chokes...do you always do that or is it map dependant? In the Feast vs viOlet series from the recent IEM, there's a game in which viOlet defends an imo-sentry push with roach-lings on cloud kingdom. Feast is at the third of viOlet with a warp prism but still viOlet manages to take him down. As they're recent and avalaible, you might want to check those replays. Edit: Here's the link of the replays of that group :: http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season7/cologne/sc2/groupstage/download/26347049/
For what it's worth, violet only barely held by the skin of his teeth, despite feast stockpiling money, and apparently executing the build in a less than optimal manner (but I guess that lets him hide it better).
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Fuzzy. Do you think neutral depots should be implemented in ladder?
I feel that the practise i get in ladder should 100% be relevant to tournaments, but now more then ever protosses and terrans abuse the ramp block and those games simply are irrelevant when it comes to preparing for tournaments.
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On September 15 2012 11:22 Babru wrote: Fuzzy. Do you think neutral depots should be implemented in ladder?
I feel that the practise i get in ladder should 100% be relevant to tournaments, but now more then ever protosses and terrans abuse the ramp block and those games simply are irrelevant when it comes to preparing for tournaments. blizz said that it isn't noob friendly so they refuse to add it. typical blizz
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On September 15 2012 11:58 j.k.l wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 11:22 Babru wrote: Fuzzy. Do you think neutral depots should be implemented in ladder?
I feel that the practise i get in ladder should 100% be relevant to tournaments, but now more then ever protosses and terrans abuse the ramp block and those games simply are irrelevant when it comes to preparing for tournaments. blizz said that it isn't noob friendly so they refuse to add it. typical blizz
Nothing improves my ladder experience more than being pylon blocked at my ramp, it just really makes my day.
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On September 15 2012 12:18 734pot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 11:58 j.k.l wrote:On September 15 2012 11:22 Babru wrote: Fuzzy. Do you think neutral depots should be implemented in ladder?
I feel that the practise i get in ladder should 100% be relevant to tournaments, but now more then ever protosses and terrans abuse the ramp block and those games simply are irrelevant when it comes to preparing for tournaments. blizz said that it isn't noob friendly so they refuse to add it. typical blizz Nothing improves my ladder experience more than being pylon blocked at my ramp, it just really makes my day. Switch to Protoss :D 70% of games are pvz :D
Agreed they need to add those stupid depots, it's pretty broken not to have them.
Why not make it a burrowed critter? It'd be less confusing than a depot in pvz.
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if he blocks the natural with a pylon, and then you build your second base at the third, can you specify on how queen inject rotation changes? And how saturating bases adjusts to these situations?
EDIT: Also which maps should i veto for this new season, especially considering protoss favoured maps?
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Cool Guide, but i miss some timings or the correct reaction if your natural got pylon blocked or even naturl + 3rd are blocked?
I allways wonderd about the real good timing of the third, finally someone who got deeper into this econ wise
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On September 15 2012 06:35 j.k.l wrote: if he blocks the natural with a pylon, and then you build your second base at the third, can you specify on how queen inject rotation changes? And how saturating bases adjusts to these situations?
EDIT: Also which maps should i veto for this new season, especially considering protoss favoured maps? Injects dont change, your first queen injects main then walks to 3rd you start 2nd queen right when first finishes and 3rd queen when your base pops, you just change the saturation to fully saturate main + 3rd first before main + natural and then you treat natural as if its your 3rd base. This includes taking 3rd 4th gass at your 3rd instead of natural because thats what is getting saturated faster
EDIT: i veto the new map i dont remember name, tald and entombed. Tald is just a personal pref that i veto, entombed because the spawn locations make the map really shit to play on and the new map because there is no tournament using it in their map pool
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On September 15 2012 11:22 Babru wrote: Fuzzy. Do you think neutral depots should be implemented in ladder?
I feel that the practise i get in ladder should 100% be relevant to tournaments, but now more then ever protosses and terrans abuse the ramp block and those games simply are irrelevant when it comes to preparing for tournaments. yes they should be but its blizzard, i mean we still have shitty positions on antiga so i dont see them implementing supply depots. i just send a drone to patrol at my ramp if i scout 2 rax or proxy, and vs toss i usually do it if i see super fast forge or weird probe movement as well as players that are more prone to cheese. If youre under gm level though just patrol your ramp vs toss each time and you should be okay ^^
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On September 16 2012 07:48 enykie wrote:Cool Guide, but i miss some timings or the correct reaction if your natural got pylon blocked or even naturl + 3rd are blocked? I allways wonderd about the real good timing of the third, finally someone who got deeper into this econ wise  :D np ^_^ ill make more guides in the future
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first of all thank you for the awesome guide. Are there replays of this style ? if they are on the guide I don't know how i missed them.
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On September 18 2012 02:43 Karpfen wrote: first of all thank you for the awesome guide. Are there replays of this style ? if they are on the guide I don't know how i missed them. I might release a replay pack sometime in the near future ^_^
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Gateway first into nexus: With this opening you should send your overlord to his main and see which gass he took, if the gass that is left empty that he did not take has good air space behind it put your overlord behind it and check for his 2nd gass timing. When you see this opening from the protoss you have to change your gass timing and 3rd timing, you will double gass at 32 for faster ling speed and throw down your roach warren at around 40 supply. The benefit protoss gets from going gate first is the speed of the first gateway timing but if you manage to crush it then he is behind because if you crush a toss push you can freedrone up to fully saturated on 3 base and then do a max roach timing on 4gass.
So when you to take third? what's the right timing?
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Absolutely awesome stuff you've posted - can't wait to read your thoughts on ZvZ and ZvT!
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On September 18 2012 20:58 Asolmanx wrote:Show nested quote +Gateway first into nexus: With this opening you should send your overlord to his main and see which gass he took, if the gass that is left empty that he did not take has good air space behind it put your overlord behind it and check for his 2nd gass timing. When you see this opening from the protoss you have to change your gass timing and 3rd timing, you will double gass at 32 for faster ling speed and throw down your roach warren at around 40 supply. The benefit protoss gets from going gate first is the speed of the first gateway timing but if you manage to crush it then he is behind because if you crush a toss push you can freedrone up to fully saturated on 3 base and then do a max roach timing on 4gass.
So when you to take third? what's the right timing? It depends a lot on the game but you simply delay it to around 40 supply before taking it, You basically want to make sure that youre stable enough to be able to take the 3rd. This will also let you push out your creep so that your natural + 3rd is connected in case he does a mass zealot aggression ^_^
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On September 19 2012 08:20 FuzzySc2 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 18 2012 20:58 Asolmanx wrote:Show nested quote +Gateway first into nexus: With this opening you should send your overlord to his main and see which gass he took, if the gass that is left empty that he did not take has good air space behind it put your overlord behind it and check for his 2nd gass timing. When you see this opening from the protoss you have to change your gass timing and 3rd timing, you will double gass at 32 for faster ling speed and throw down your roach warren at around 40 supply. The benefit protoss gets from going gate first is the speed of the first gateway timing but if you manage to crush it then he is behind because if you crush a toss push you can freedrone up to fully saturated on 3 base and then do a max roach timing on 4gass.
So when you to take third? what's the right timing? It depends a lot on the game but you simply delay it to around 40 supply before taking it, You basically want to make sure that youre stable enough to be able to take the 3rd. This will also let you push out your creep so that your natural + 3rd is connected in case he does a mass zealot aggression ^_^ I see. Thanks.
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In the mid-game section, one of the options you state is the roach/ling max. That's what I usually do. But I've heard that this is an all-in? Is this true? I HAVE had a hard time getting back into the game when it fails. Can you only do it against early 3rd? What about normal 3rd, what do you do then?
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FuzzySc2,
Any chance you or one of your pals at Col will do a Terran guide? zerg is already so good... :D
cheers and great guide
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On September 19 2012 21:56 djack0666 wrote: FuzzySc2,
Any chance you or one of your pals at Col will do a Terran guide? zerg is already so good... :D
cheers and great guide
I dont think any of them are going to release a guide sorry
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On September 19 2012 21:49 gronnelg wrote: In the mid-game section, one of the options you state is the roach/ling max. That's what I usually do. But I've heard that this is an all-in? Is this true? I HAVE had a hard time getting back into the game when it fails. Can you only do it against early 3rd? What about normal 3rd, what do you do then?
Yes the roach ling max is an allin, if it doesnt do damage you cannot transition. This is because of the amount of gass youre investing into roachs + staying on 3 base. If this push fails you dont got the gass or the tech paths to transition. If the toss is doing something weird like turtling on 2 base then taking a 3rd i wouldnt do this push otherwise it has a chance to work vs any type of 3rd. Good protoss will not lose to this because it is easy to defend vs now, but if they mess up with FF or have bad macro then it will still work ^_^
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On September 20 2012 08:02 FuzzySc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 21:49 gronnelg wrote: In the mid-game section, one of the options you state is the roach/ling max. That's what I usually do. But I've heard that this is an all-in? Is this true? I HAVE had a hard time getting back into the game when it fails. Can you only do it against early 3rd? What about normal 3rd, what do you do then? Yes the roach ling max is an allin, if it doesnt do damage you cannot transition. This is because of the amount of gass youre investing into roachs + staying on 3 base. If this push fails you dont got the gass or the tech paths to transition. If the toss is doing something weird like turtling on 2 base then taking a 3rd i wouldnt do this push otherwise it has a chance to work vs any type of 3rd. Good protoss will not lose to this because it is easy to defend vs now, but if they mess up with FF or have bad macro then it will still work ^_^ Yeah, Fuzzy is completely right! :D
I smile when Zergs do it, because I know that I will hit a HUGE timing with 3 +3 colossi, and a maxed army of gateway/immortal/colo with like, 8 full energy sentries. Huge 3 base pushes, you basically have to kill Protoss's third or else you lose. It's also really easy to scout lol, just chrono out immortals and it's an easy hold.
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This guide is really weak, IMO. Seems more of a blatant social media plug than a guide. What have you shared that a gold leaguer couldn't?
User was temp banned for this post.
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On September 20 2012 09:27 sanddbox_sc2 wrote: This guide is really weak, IMO. Seems more of a blatant social media plug than a guide. What have you shared that a gold leaguer couldn't? Looking at the reception it got i think that it did provide information that a gold leaguer couldnt IMO
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So a roach ling max is an all-in. That makes me a sad panda. What is the typical mid-game flow then? Camping until deathball? I really like that mid-game push, because it gives an additional stage to zvp, instead of camping til deathball -> gg :/
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On September 20 2012 20:02 gronnelg wrote: So a roach ling max is an all-in. That makes me a sad panda. What is the typical mid-game flow then? Camping until deathball? I really like that mid-game push, because it gives an additional stage to zvp, instead of camping til deathball -> gg :/ Zerg has 3 (arguably 4) ways to play ZvP midgame. 1) roach/ling max, yeah all in. Will work up until ~mid-top diamond. Keep in mind maxing roach/ling can be necessary to stop various 2 base all ins (mainly colossus all in) 2) mutas into 5 base hive. Just get mutas then take your fifth (take your fourth as soon as no gateway all in). Harass him a lot, counterattacks, if he moves out then basetrade and laugh  3) infestor/spine turtle. Just mass infestor/spine/ling on 4 bases and get a fast greater spire. 4) BANERAIN! Idk, speedbanes and bane bombs on mineral lines, yada yada.
Just remember that lings are free: I lost a game because 40 lings ran by and sniped ONE colossus and a few probes. I couldn't move out for another minute, which bought him time for broods.
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On September 20 2012 20:02 gronnelg wrote: So a roach ling max is an all-in. That makes me a sad panda. What is the typical mid-game flow then? Camping until deathball? I really like that mid-game push, because it gives an additional stage to zvp, instead of camping til deathball -> gg :/
yea. pretty much. If you fail to stop protoss third, all the gas you spend on roaches, you will not have enough tech to deal with colossus. Or anything else. Once they stablize and go mothership, your corruptor count would be very low, same with your infestors. Fuzzy points it out well in this guide that I've been following. After 30 roaches, you should stop and go lings instead to save gas for tech. If your initial forces deal damage like snipping sentries or they use too many forcefields, I would make another round (10-15 roaches) to replace some lost roaches and to put more pressure. Having lots of lings are good too, they can really distrupt the immortal AI into shooting the lings instead.
as for midgame flow. lets say you don't all in, put some pressure with roach/ling and force protoss to make units. You put your infestation pit down, take your 4th. continue to go 200/200 while saturating your 4th. You should have around 5-6 infestors with roach/ling 200/200. When you're on 4 base full saturation you go hive tech and throw down 10+ spines (replace drones). They should be pushing you around this time so you need to land some good fungals in the heart of their death ball while getting a full surround. This requires you to split your forces as you see protoss moving towards you. Try to engage as he hits your spine wall. This means you need to place spine wall in right location. Once he's in range of spines, you fungal and don't let him go. If he retreats with the unfungaled part of the army then you get a free piece and for certain you can tech to broodlords safely. If he fights then you have advantage with surround and spine wall.
Hope that helps. Maybe fuzzy can touch up on it
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Edit: Nvm, I'm herp derping all over the place today. Can't read.
When do you usually take your 3rd if it is delayed vs FFE, I usually get it around the 30ish supply mark if it is delayed but when do you usually get it?
Great guide overall, very good reminder to all Zergs about their mechanics in the match-up.
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Great guide.
Nothing cool and new, just a specific detailed list of the little things people need to be paying more attention to with a very standard opener.
I personally had to hash these details out a few months ago with a friend. Took a few hours to do and I was frustrated with the lack of any decent guides on the most basic ZvP opener out there. This fills a hole that has been around for a while.
Thanks!
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Awesome guide! Could you talk about transitioning into the mid/late game a bit? I understand the early game well enough, but don't understand how to transition very well. It seems like once I tech to infestors, protoss has the initiative and can tech/expand/attack while I slog my way towards broodlords. I've seen some zerg players do midgame attacks once they get infestors and/or corruptors, but I don't really have a great grasp on these attacks. Could you speak to them?
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Fuzzy don't ever forget your Stoic roots... stoicFuzzy fighting!
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On September 21 2012 02:17 Nooborghini wrote: Edit: Nvm, I'm herp derping all over the place today. Can't read.
When do you usually take your 3rd if it is delayed vs FFE, I usually get it around the 30ish supply mark if it is delayed but when do you usually get it?
Great guide overall, very good reminder to all Zergs about their mechanics in the match-up.
Umm i put the build into the guide, you block yourself at 36 then overlord then when you hit 100 minerals after the overlord you send a drone out to take your 3rd. The drone will get there exactly when you hit 300 minerals and lower your supply to 35 letting you do 1 more drone, then your ovy pops lining up with injects poping bumping you to 40-42 supply then you double gass and overlord on 40 again. The gass timings is 10s faster than the other build with this
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On September 21 2012 03:23 FuzzySc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 02:17 Nooborghini wrote: Edit: Nvm, I'm herp derping all over the place today. Can't read.
When do you usually take your 3rd if it is delayed vs FFE, I usually get it around the 30ish supply mark if it is delayed but when do you usually get it?
Great guide overall, very good reminder to all Zergs about their mechanics in the match-up. Umm i put the build into the guide, you block yourself at 36 then overlord then when you hit 100 minerals after the overlord you send a drone out to take your 3rd. The drone will get there exactly when you hit 300 minerals and lower your supply to 35 letting you do 1 more drone, then your ovy pops lining up with injects poping bumping you to 40-42 supply then you double gass and overlord on 40 again. The gass timings is 10s faster than the other build with this
Thank you very much Fuzzy <3 I couldn't find it in the OP, maybe I wasn't looking hard enough. ><" sry I'm at work and I'm SO bored.
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On September 20 2012 22:46 Northern_iight wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 20:02 gronnelg wrote: So a roach ling max is an all-in. That makes me a sad panda. What is the typical mid-game flow then? Camping until deathball? I really like that mid-game push, because it gives an additional stage to zvp, instead of camping til deathball -> gg :/ yea. pretty much. If you fail to stop protoss third, all the gas you spend on roaches, you will not have enough tech to deal with colossus. Or anything else. Once they stablize and go mothership, your corruptor count would be very low, same with your infestors. Fuzzy points it out well in this guide that I've been following. After 30 roaches, you should stop and go lings instead to save gas for tech. If your initial forces deal damage like snipping sentries or they use too many forcefields, I would make another round (10-15 roaches) to replace some lost roaches and to put more pressure. Having lots of lings are good too, they can really distrupt the immortal AI into shooting the lings instead. as for midgame flow. lets say you don't all in, put some pressure with roach/ling and force protoss to make units. You put your infestation pit down, take your 4th. continue to go 200/200 while saturating your 4th. You should have around 5-6 infestors with roach/ling 200/200. When you're on 4 base full saturation you go hive tech and throw down 10+ spines (replace drones). They should be pushing you around this time so you need to land some good fungals in the heart of their death ball while getting a full surround. This requires you to split your forces as you see protoss moving towards you. Try to engage as he hits your spine wall. This means you need to place spine wall in right location. Once he's in range of spines, you fungal and don't let him go. If he retreats with the unfungaled part of the army then you get a free piece and for certain you can tech to broodlords safely. If he fights then you have advantage with surround and spine wall. Hope that helps. Maybe fuzzy can touch up on it I think the idea of "turtle behind spines" is actually not very good. To me everything has to go in order in this matchup, so for example if you got a 160 supply army of 6-10 infestors and lings after you did your initial push which did damage you should just put down spines, you should use these units to do the next wave of pressure and behind this you throw down spines. If you have army units that you made they have to be active. The 4th timing should be before your pressure as well, you want to get the gasses mining asap + the a little bit of extra income because you will be going to 75-80 drones.
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On September 21 2012 03:18 jimbob615 wrote: Fuzzy don't ever forget your Stoic roots... stoicFuzzy fighting! haha ^_^
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On September 21 2012 02:51 Lobotomist wrote: Awesome guide! Could you talk about transitioning into the mid/late game a bit? I understand the early game well enough, but don't understand how to transition very well. It seems like once I tech to infestors, protoss has the initiative and can tech/expand/attack while I slog my way towards broodlords. I've seen some zerg players do midgame attacks once they get infestors and/or corruptors, but I don't really have a great grasp on these attacks. Could you speak to them?
A lot depends on the game but this Matchup is all about timings, if you see them taking a 3rd the first timing 11-12 min is trying to punish the fact that their army is small + immobile and has to cover the distance of 3 bases so an example of takign advantage of this is to drop the main with your whole army roachs + lings and as his army goes to defend you send the reinforcement units (all lings) to attack his 3rd or natural. This is happening while youre making infestors because the gass buildup. You should be at 8-10 infestors when the aggeression is done (also on 4 base with 8 gass mining 80 dones dont forget to drop your spire and start hive :D) Your next timing will be with the 8-10 infestors and mass lings into a non ramp location (ex:daybreak attack the 3rd base if you cant get up the ramp to natural) The infestors will use all energy on infested terrans and then pull back. If you manage to do massive damage with this prepare for a counter attack (make spines if you see yourself doing a shitload of damage) Dont rush to BL if you see that his army is small and you keep trading very well and have been keeping up on getting your upgrades ultras are actually a good choice before transitioning into BL
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On September 20 2012 22:26 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 20:02 gronnelg wrote: So a roach ling max is an all-in. That makes me a sad panda. What is the typical mid-game flow then? Camping until deathball? I really like that mid-game push, because it gives an additional stage to zvp, instead of camping til deathball -> gg :/ Zerg has 3 (arguably 4) ways to play ZvP midgame. 1) roach/ling max, yeah all in. Will work up until ~mid-top diamond. Keep in mind maxing roach/ling can be necessary to stop various 2 base all ins (mainly colossus all in) 2) mutas into 5 base hive. Just get mutas then take your fifth (take your fourth as soon as no gateway all in). Harass him a lot, counterattacks, if he moves out then basetrade and laugh  3) infestor/spine turtle. Just mass infestor/spine/ling on 4 bases and get a fast greater spire. 4) BANERAIN! Idk, speedbanes and bane bombs on mineral lines, yada yada. Just remember that lings are free: I lost a game because 40 lings ran by and sniped ONE colossus and a few probes. I couldn't move out for another minute, which bought him time for broods. I really want ot avoid number 3. With number 2: you take your 4th as soon as you see the toss 3rd go down then? What triggers do you go by, to know when to a) start spire? b) start 5th? c) start inf pit/hive? d) stop muta production?
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On September 21 2012 16:06 gronnelg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 22:26 Mavvie wrote:On September 20 2012 20:02 gronnelg wrote: So a roach ling max is an all-in. That makes me a sad panda. What is the typical mid-game flow then? Camping until deathball? I really like that mid-game push, because it gives an additional stage to zvp, instead of camping til deathball -> gg :/ Zerg has 3 (arguably 4) ways to play ZvP midgame. 1) roach/ling max, yeah all in. Will work up until ~mid-top diamond. Keep in mind maxing roach/ling can be necessary to stop various 2 base all ins (mainly colossus all in) 2) mutas into 5 base hive. Just get mutas then take your fifth (take your fourth as soon as no gateway all in). Harass him a lot, counterattacks, if he moves out then basetrade and laugh  3) infestor/spine turtle. Just mass infestor/spine/ling on 4 bases and get a fast greater spire. 4) BANERAIN! Idk, speedbanes and bane bombs on mineral lines, yada yada. Just remember that lings are free: I lost a game because 40 lings ran by and sniped ONE colossus and a few probes. I couldn't move out for another minute, which bought him time for broods. I really want ot avoid number 3. With number 2: you take your 4th as soon as you see the toss 3rd go down then? What triggers do you go by, to know when to a) start spire? b) start 5th? c) start inf pit/hive? d) stop muta production?
all the mid game transitions that i recommend are in the guide under mid game transition section xD
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On September 21 2012 16:06 gronnelg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 22:26 Mavvie wrote:On September 20 2012 20:02 gronnelg wrote: So a roach ling max is an all-in. That makes me a sad panda. What is the typical mid-game flow then? Camping until deathball? I really like that mid-game push, because it gives an additional stage to zvp, instead of camping til deathball -> gg :/ Zerg has 3 (arguably 4) ways to play ZvP midgame. 1) roach/ling max, yeah all in. Will work up until ~mid-top diamond. Keep in mind maxing roach/ling can be necessary to stop various 2 base all ins (mainly colossus all in) 2) mutas into 5 base hive. Just get mutas then take your fifth (take your fourth as soon as no gateway all in). Harass him a lot, counterattacks, if he moves out then basetrade and laugh  3) infestor/spine turtle. Just mass infestor/spine/ling on 4 bases and get a fast greater spire. 4) BANERAIN! Idk, speedbanes and bane bombs on mineral lines, yada yada. Just remember that lings are free: I lost a game because 40 lings ran by and sniped ONE colossus and a few probes. I couldn't move out for another minute, which bought him time for broods. I really want ot avoid number 3. With number 2: you take your 4th as soon as you see the toss 3rd go down then? What triggers do you go by, to know when to a) start spire? b) start 5th? c) start inf pit/hive? d) stop muta production? Why? It's the hardest style to play against as toss; you can't attack into infestor/spine/ling, and it's really hard to win lategame against broodlord/infestor
a) As soon as lair is done if I feel like going mutas; otherwise start it as you start your hive so they finish at the same time. I like to go a fast muta style, skipping roach warren if I can (ie no gateway all in), so you can get optimal drone count + mutas out by 11:00. But really, just throw it down when your lair is done, should be starting it 8:20 at the latest with standard gas timings b) Once I'm saturated on four bases You don't really need the 9th and 10th gases until hive tech, so it's not that big a deal. c) Transitioning is hard. Really hard. Day[9] did a daily on it, but I didn't find it helpful. Throw it down once you have like, 15 mutas. It's only 150 gas, and I'd rather get it early and not use it than get it too late and die. Hive ASAP, start it when you stop muta production: d) As soon as he can start to easily defend this. Be afraid of HT with storm or archons; until you see this, keep making mutas! I like to go past 30 mutas; you kill nexii so fast that if he's out of position for 5 seconds he loses a base. Also, if you have 5 bases and he has no HT, you should be able to max out on muta/ling and just attack and win. Try to snipe sentries with mutas, especially ones casting GS.
Yeah I think fuzzy covers the midgame options better than I do, but most of this is standard ZvP knowledge ^^
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very nice guide, i was actually looking for something like this
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Nice work, Fuzzy. Always good to see some upcoming players. Hopefully you can 'graduate' into Complexity too. NA scene needs new blood, so you have my support. Are you planning to compete in some tournaments where we can follow your games? I've asked Husky to cast some of your games to help increase your profile.
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On September 22 2012 07:24 revel8 wrote: Nice work, Fuzzy. Always good to see some upcoming players. Hopefully you can 'graduate' into Complexity too. NA scene needs new blood, so you have my support. Are you planning to compete in some tournaments where we can follow your games? I've asked Husky to cast some of your games to help increase your profile. I go to each mlg, esea is casted for col academy too. going to be playing in the col academy vs minigun showmatch at 8est today too ^_^
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On September 22 2012 07:48 FuzzySc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2012 07:24 revel8 wrote: Nice work, Fuzzy. Always good to see some upcoming players. Hopefully you can 'graduate' into Complexity too. NA scene needs new blood, so you have my support. Are you planning to compete in some tournaments where we can follow your games? I've asked Husky to cast some of your games to help increase your profile. I go to each mlg, esea is casted for col academy too. going to be playing in the col academy vs minigun showmatch at 8est today too ^_^
OK, cool. I've just been watching your VODs on twitch. Just saw you beat a Protoss called Placid on Daybreak using drop play. Any particular Zerg players who inspire you or that you base your game play on? Idra, Stephano, DRG, Dimaga?
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I'm curious, if you are pylon blocked at the natural and take the third instead as you suggest do you just play with a regular fast third and not your preferred delayed one? So basically if you get the hatch at the natural you go for your build and if you don't you go for the standard one?
Also do you normally prefer going lair or speed first? I tend to go speed when I scout no gas at their natural, chrono on forge etc and then lair when hes going for a build with some tech. Also I assume by gateway first into nexus you mean gateway before forge at natural? and the same for a cyber core.
Lastly what indicators do you see to decide which style to use? Or do you just go any of them or is their one you prefer etc.
Thanks for the guide
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On September 22 2012 08:46 aLtNXZ wrote:I'm curious, if you are pylon blocked at the natural and take the third instead as you suggest do you just play with a regular fast third and not your preferred delayed one? So basically if you get the hatch at the natural you go for your build and if you don't you go for the standard one? Also do you normally prefer going lair or speed first? I tend to go speed when I scout no gas at their natural, chrono on forge etc and then lair when hes going for a build with some tech. Also I assume by gateway first into nexus you mean gateway before forge at natural? and the same for a cyber core. Lastly what indicators do you see to decide which style to use? Or do you just go any of them or is their one you prefer etc. Thanks for the guide 
If he pylon blocks you at natural and you take 3rd instead you still delay the 3rd, the build itself is better in all situations. The only time i go to the other build is if he pylon blocks me at natural and instantly sends his probe to the 3rd to prevent me from getting my base down. I go speed before lair, helps with any type of allin :D. Yes i mean gateway before forge and they gate cyber opening is the very old metagame where the delay their natural and make a cyber before taking it.
I change the style depending on the map. For example ling roach push on shakuras is very powerfull because they cant sim city the area between their natural + 3rd. Mutas are effective on a map like tald where you can force a base trade when they push out, ect.
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I see thanks for the response! I've tried the build a couple times and seems to be very effective, it feels very clean and seems to work very well. Thank you very much for taking the time to write this guide.
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Fuzzy been asking you do to this for a while, finally I see it. Only months after it was done...
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On September 22 2012 14:03 CanadianSC wrote: Fuzzy been asking you do to this for a while, finally I see it. Only months after it was done...
it hasnt been a whole month yet :D
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On September 22 2012 11:29 aLtNXZ wrote: I see thanks for the response! I've tried the build a couple times and seems to be very effective, it feels very clean and seems to work very well. Thank you very much for taking the time to write this guide. np glad it helped ^_^
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You say you don't like doing Infestor+spine turtle and you point out in your guide that you like to go Mutas in your mid game transition if he goes for a quick 3rd.
Is there another way to put pressure on a Protoss who gets an early 3rd without going Mutas? This is what hurts me in ZvP the most right now.
Would banerain be good for mid game pressure or is it safer to just try and tech up to broodlord/infestor and hope you can shut down the 3 base toss in the late game?
Also for Warp Prism play what is the proper response to this? I'll sometimes run into Toss players who will push their main army to my 3rd but then threaten my nat or main with a Warp Prism and at any point they can just warp in a round of Zealots. It could be that I just need better control. However, sometimes they won't even have to warp in a round of zealots and they will just keep the Warp Prism nearby just so they can force me to leave 4-5 roaches in my main/nat and have a weaker main army to defend the push coming at my 3rd. Good guide.
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Nice guide this helped me a lot
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OP, i was wondering if you can also cover zvt and zvz?
thanks for the guide
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Great guide. Even from the protoss side of view, this was very helpful.
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On September 23 2012 05:47 sagefreke wrote: You say you don't like doing Infestor+spine turtle and you point out in your guide that you like to go Mutas in your mid game transition if he goes for a quick 3rd.
Is there another way to put pressure on a Protoss who gets an early 3rd without going Mutas? This is what hurts me in ZvP the most right now.
Would banerain be good for mid game pressure or is it safer to just try and tech up to broodlord/infestor and hope you can shut down the 3 base toss in the late game?
Also for Warp Prism play what is the proper response to this? I'll sometimes run into Toss players who will push their main army to my 3rd but then threaten my nat or main with a Warp Prism and at any point they can just warp in a round of Zealots. It could be that I just need better control. However, sometimes they won't even have to warp in a round of zealots and they will just keep the Warp Prism nearby just so they can force me to leave 4-5 roaches in my main/nat and have a weaker main army to defend the push coming at my 3rd. Good guide.
What type of push is coming to your 3rd? The way to apply pressure is doing drop play, or just being slightly aggressive with roach ling, keep moving the units around but dont engage if you see that you will do bad in the trade. I cant answer the warp prism question until you give me more detail. If he is doing this while doing a 2 base immortal sentry push then just send 4 roachs up there and then let one hatchery worth of larva rally there and it should be fine. If he is doing this while he has 3 base and youre still on 3 base it doesnt actually matter because youre too low econ so even if the push doesnt kill you, you will still lose. If its a macro game and both sides are equal you should be throwing up spines ^_^
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On September 23 2012 11:21 CodeskyE wrote: OP, i was wondering if you can also cover zvt and zvz?
thanks for the guide I will write one eventually for zvz and zvt :D
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On September 23 2012 15:54 FuzzySc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 11:21 CodeskyE wrote: OP, i was wondering if you can also cover zvt and zvz?
thanks for the guide I will write one eventually for zvz and zvt :D
can't wait man thanks!
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I have a question regarding taking a third as your natural. I generally feel uncomfortable doing this because my first queen takes too long to reach the 3rd for the inject. So your 2nd queen in your main injects 5-10 secs quicker which makes the build feel very off. Do you have any tips to avoiding this issue or is it unavoidable?
Also I have made a small modification on your opener which I feel might be slightly more effective. Your build currently takes a third at around 5:30. The reason your build comes out with more drones quicker is due to spending your 1st inject immediately. I tried delaying the 3rd queen and floating a few extra minerals but getting the hatch at 5 mins instead. The way this worked out was I was at an identical position except I had a faster hatch and one less creep tumour. I think this gains any benefits that your build does but gets the hatch quicker so it is less larva behind the standard build.
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On September 24 2012 10:29 aLtNXZ wrote: I have a question regarding taking a third as your natural. I generally feel uncomfortable doing this because my first queen takes too long to reach the 3rd for the inject. So your 2nd queen in your main injects 5-10 secs quicker which makes the build feel very off. Do you have any tips to avoiding this issue or is it unavoidable?
Also I have made a small modification on your opener which I feel might be slightly more effective. Your build currently takes a third at around 5:30. The reason your build comes out with more drones quicker is due to spending your 1st inject immediately. I tried delaying the 3rd queen and floating a few extra minerals but getting the hatch at 5 mins instead. The way this worked out was I was at an identical position except I had a faster hatch and one less creep tumour. I think this gains any benefits that your build does but gets the hatch quicker so it is less larva behind the standard build.
The only way to overcome feeling uncomfortable with taking the 3rd as the natural is to just mass games out with the build. I dont seem to have any problem with it because ive played it so many times. Even with having the queen walk all the way to the 3rd i still get better supply count per min with the build, the queen shouldnt be missing it by 10s though, make sure youre walking it straight when the first inject happens. Ill test out your variation but the reason why this build is better isnt because the first inject is so fast. The reason this build is good is because the faster hatch doesnt actually give you anything, the creep really denies any type of aggression early on and since youre getting your gasses so quick due to your supply being higher than normal you wont die to normal 2 base gateway pushes. The 3rd queen for me always lays down 2 creep tumors and right when it hits 25 energy again my 3rd base pops and i can inject it. I start 3rd queen right when my natural pops
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Thanks for the guide. I can use all the help i can get.
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On September 25 2012 03:03 Manch1ld wrote:Thanks for the guide. I can use all the help i can get.  np ^_^
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Great guide definitely help me out at starting zerg again, only thing i could possible add is talking about forge upgrades/chronos, in chanmanv's Ret session he seemed to talk more about the forge for timings than the gases themselves.
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On September 25 2012 04:30 Templar. wrote:Great guide  definitely help me out at starting zerg again, only thing i could possible add is talking about forge upgrades/chronos, in chanmanv's Ret session he seemed to talk more about the forge for timings than the gases themselves.
There are multiple ways to scout, i find gasses to be the best way and if needed to sac and overlord to see what timing is coming at you. The problem with scouting with forge upgrades or the chrono used on cyber core / gateway is that this can only work vs very high level protoss that have their build refined, and wont help people that are lower than mid-high gm since toss at that point just chrono at random
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Yeah, I think it might be to do with me having a slightly different 15 pool build but it has been more manageable recently. But yeah the thing is when your third is 1 min later you lose 4 larva. I was proposing a close to identical build just having 1 less tumour and 2 larva more from the third. This means in the shortrun you have 1 less tumour but 2 extra drones. Your build has very slick timings though so perhaps messing with it slightly will effect it. Also in response to more supply, your only advantage would be an extra drone mining for longer when compared to a regular fast third. So I think the bonus supply does come from spending more larva earlier .
Also do you have any reps of defending sentry immortal? And do you take ranged, melee or carapace as your first upgrade?
In context of the different 15 pool: do you send a drone to your third at 100 mins and another to your nat at 200? Or do you send the first drone to the natural and if you can't get it there send it to he third. Sorry for asking so many questions.
Thanks in advance
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hey fuzzy can you look over this replay for me? I'm doing the delayed hatch build and I can't hit the 11 min max out mark. I'm doing this without any opponent either, imagine if opponent had pressured me. I can usually hit 200/200 at 11:15 with 14p,16h,15overlord with fast 3rd at around 11:20. With the delayed hatch build I'm hitting it at 11:45
http://drop.sc/257698
If you can point out any mistakes in the build for me, that will be great. thanks for your time
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On September 25 2012 16:40 aLtNXZ wrote:Yeah, I think it might be to do with me having a slightly different 15 pool build but it has been more manageable recently. But yeah the thing is when your third is 1 min later you lose 4 larva. I was proposing a close to identical build just having 1 less tumour and 2 larva more from the third. This means in the shortrun you have 1 less tumour but 2 extra drones. Your build has very slick timings though so perhaps messing with it slightly will effect it. Also in response to more supply, your only advantage would be an extra drone mining for longer when compared to a regular fast third. Also do you have any reps of defending sentry immortal? And do you take ranges, melter or carapace as your diet upgrade? In context of the different 15 pool: do you send a drone to your third at 100 mind and another to your nat at 200? Or do you send the first drone to the natural and if you can't get it there send it to he third. Sorry for asking so many questions. Thanks in advance  np, ill post replays eventually xD you send out 2 drones because if youre playing a good toss and he throws down a pylon at the natural he will move his probe to the 3rd and then you cant get any hatch down ^_^
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On September 25 2012 23:39 Northern_iight wrote:hey fuzzy can you look over this replay for me? I'm doing the delayed hatch build and I can't hit the 11 min max out mark. I'm doing this without any opponent either, imagine if opponent had pressured me. I can usually hit 200/200 at 11:15 with 14p,16h,15overlord with fast 3rd at around 11:20. With the delayed hatch build I'm hitting it at 11:45 http://drop.sc/257698If you can point out any mistakes in the build for me, that will be great. thanks for your time Firstly, it needs to be a little refined there are times when you have larva + minerals and they dont turn to drones right away it takes 1-3s before theyre used. You should transfer drones to your natural dont rally point from main to natural. You got supply blocked at 52 supply and were floating around 300 minerals at that time. Macro hatch was way too early, main at 7:30 isnt saturated you need 2-3 more drones on it. when you started making mass roach you werent fully saturated, you needed 5 more drones. Injects need work your main queen was able to inject natural after main at 9:30 and your queen at the 3rd was sitting at 40+ energy at the same time. That being said your supply was 170ish by 11min which is technically good enough vs most toss that are under mid GM as long as you can continue to inject while doing the agression. Fix all those things and you can max out faster ^_^
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^_^ nice read fuzzy. Guide is definitely worth reading. Zergs who don't know Fuzzy should definitely read through this, hes a very high level zerg and has a pretty unique approach to the early/mid game, which (from first hand experience) I can say makes his zvp quite difficult to play versus ahah ^^
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Fuzzy.
What is your Ovie/roach approach/schedule when going for a max. Do you start making 2 ovies at once, or 3 at once at certain supply amounts? Do you make an ovie once one pops? What is your signal for making more ovies?
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When going mutas mid-game, what triggers you to start transitioning out of mutas? Edit: Also, you said double spire... Is it really worth spending that much gas on an extra spire and upgrades?
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Just wanted to say thanks. Especially scouting section and Toss gas timings.
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On September 27 2012 09:29 BuiBui wrote: Fuzzy.
What is your Ovie/roach approach/schedule when going for a max. Do you start making 2 ovies at once, or 3 at once at certain supply amounts? Do you make an ovie once one pops? What is your signal for making more ovies? Umm if you go for the roach max or any pressure i just make a shitload of overlords like 5-6 when im about to start mass production. Its a mineral dump and you dont need to go one a a time with them since due to larva you will be producing more units than you can supply wise when youre 100+
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On September 27 2012 21:36 gronnelg wrote: When going mutas mid-game, what triggers you to start transitioning out of mutas? Edit: Also, you said double spire... Is it really worth spending that much gas on an extra spire and upgrades? The build itself is allin, any muta build is. By this i mean that it has to do damage or else you will lose because you invested so much gass into it. The way i play this style is constant aggression with muta ling and trading as much as possible, when you get +2 +2 air + air armor it makes trading a lot easier esp if you have +2+2lings. As for transitioning out, if youre in a good position where you did damage and he is turtled up and unable to make a instant tech switch without dying you can start spining up w/e choke and tech into hive + BL + infestors. This is of course assuming that you have been active with taking bases with this style.
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Nice guide Fuzzy, thanks very much.
PS - "Gas" has only one "s".
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On September 28 2012 02:50 FuzzySc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 09:29 BuiBui wrote: Fuzzy.
What is your Ovie/roach approach/schedule when going for a max. Do you start making 2 ovies at once, or 3 at once at certain supply amounts? Do you make an ovie once one pops? What is your signal for making more ovies? Umm if you go for the roach max or any pressure i just make a shitload of overlords like 5-6 when im about to start mass production. Its a mineral dump and you dont need to go one a a time with them since due to larva you will be producing more units than you can supply wise when youre 100+
perfect! Thanks.
Does this mean you have your OL's timed in your Build order till 100?
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Btw gas has only one S. Nice work Fuzzy, I really like the first build :D!
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On September 28 2012 04:26 BuiBui wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 02:50 FuzzySc2 wrote:On September 27 2012 09:29 BuiBui wrote: Fuzzy.
What is your Ovie/roach approach/schedule when going for a max. Do you start making 2 ovies at once, or 3 at once at certain supply amounts? Do you make an ovie once one pops? What is your signal for making more ovies? Umm if you go for the roach max or any pressure i just make a shitload of overlords like 5-6 when im about to start mass production. Its a mineral dump and you dont need to go one a a time with them since due to larva you will be producing more units than you can supply wise when youre 100+ perfect! Thanks. Does this mean you have your OL's timed in your Build order till 100? yup ^_^
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On September 28 2012 06:54 NOOBALOPSE wrote: Btw gas has only one S. Nice work Fuzzy, I really like the first build :D! my gass is special glad you like it ^_^
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On September 28 2012 06:54 NOOBALOPSE wrote: Btw gas has only one S. Nice work Fuzzy, I really like the first build :D! np glad you like it :D
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Interesting opening. Will try out. Actually sounds better than current meta.
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thanks for the guide! I love it when so much info is all in one place.
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On September 28 2012 13:54 Sassback wrote: thanks for the guide! I love it when so much info is all in one place. np :D
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This will really help my ZvP :D
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On October 02 2012 12:16 DoggerStarcraft wrote: This will really help my ZvP :D glad it helps ^_^
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On September 28 2012 07:54 FuzzySc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 04:26 BuiBui wrote:On September 28 2012 02:50 FuzzySc2 wrote:On September 27 2012 09:29 BuiBui wrote: Fuzzy.
What is your Ovie/roach approach/schedule when going for a max. Do you start making 2 ovies at once, or 3 at once at certain supply amounts? Do you make an ovie once one pops? What is your signal for making more ovies? Umm if you go for the roach max or any pressure i just make a shitload of overlords like 5-6 when im about to start mass production. Its a mineral dump and you dont need to go one a a time with them since due to larva you will be producing more units than you can supply wise when youre 100+ perfect! Thanks. Does this mean you have your OL's timed in your Build order till 100? yup ^_^
Do you mind sharing you OL timings all the way up to 100 plz ^_^ This will save me hours of cross comparing ovies timings in 1vcomputer on ezmode.
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On October 04 2012 08:15 BuiBui wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 07:54 FuzzySc2 wrote:On September 28 2012 04:26 BuiBui wrote:On September 28 2012 02:50 FuzzySc2 wrote:On September 27 2012 09:29 BuiBui wrote: Fuzzy.
What is your Ovie/roach approach/schedule when going for a max. Do you start making 2 ovies at once, or 3 at once at certain supply amounts? Do you make an ovie once one pops? What is your signal for making more ovies? Umm if you go for the roach max or any pressure i just make a shitload of overlords like 5-6 when im about to start mass production. Its a mineral dump and you dont need to go one a a time with them since due to larva you will be producing more units than you can supply wise when youre 100+ perfect! Thanks. Does this mean you have your OL's timed in your Build order till 100? yup ^_^ Do you mind sharing you OL timings all the way up to 100 plz ^_^ This will save me hours of cross comparing ovies timings in 1vcomputer on ezmode.
Think i answered this for you over bnet but, after the 60 supply mark overlord timings change too much to be able to tell, if youre being pressured then you want to make more overlords 2-3 at a time so that you can make mass units. Normally after the 60 supply mark you just make an overlord each time one pops and when you are fully saturated on 3 base depending on what style youre going for you just want to mass overlords before you start making mass units, easier to manage. Or if you want to be tryhard make 3 overlords inbetween unit waves, just dont get supply blocked :D
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Thanks Fuz ^_^, and yes you did
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On September 20 2012 09:27 sanddbox_sc2 wrote: This guide is really weak, IMO. Seems more of a blatant social media plug than a guide. What have you shared that a gold leaguer couldn't?
User was temp banned for this post.
I think this guide is largely oriented towards sub-masters players, that's probably why it feels so weak to you :p seems like the sort of thing you would show a diamond player who couldn't get masters, rather than something that is intended to be used by high masters / GM players who already have all the rudimentary ideas in this guide down.
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Thank you Fuzzy! Great guide!
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Why did you spell gas like that haha
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Thx for the guide! Any special tips to beat sentry immortal allin on ohana? Are there any good places to place spines maybe?
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