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My experiences with this build at Mid-Masters level...
- Its great if they are going with a fast 4th more passive macro style play with the late-game Infestor-Broodlord comp in mind. I can win games nearly 80-90% of the time. The 10-20% left out are the games where I will make a mistake and lose as result.
- Its terrible if they're going with a 3-base aggressive build revolving around Stephanos 12 Minute roach max. Like if they just slam into your front at like 11-11:30 with all the roaches they have... Its pretty much instant loss.
So this build has its ups and downs.
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On August 29 2012 07:36 DeathToSquid wrote:Show nested quote + I'm only Diamond but if you can't find anyone else to spar against with the ability to bust out a decent Stephano roach max, I'm willing to give it a shot. Are you on North America? If so, send me your infoto loove_fish@hotmail.com and lets play! I'm only plat so you will probably stomp me but it should be fun :D
Unfortunately not, I've only got access to EU.
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On August 29 2012 15:20 Enzymatic wrote:
My experiences with this build at Mid-Masters level...
- Its great if they are going with a fast 4th more passive macro style play with the late-game Infestor-Broodlord comp in mind. I can win games nearly 80-90% of the time. The 10-20% left out are the games where I will make a mistake and lose as result.
- Its terrible if they're going with a 3-base aggressive build revolving around Stephanos 12 Minute roach max. Like if they just slam into your front at like 11-11:30 with all the roaches they have... Its pretty much instant loss.
So this build has its ups and downs.
High-Masters/GM level here.
Never lost to any kind of 3 Base aggression (where i haven't fucked up my first vortex). I'm thinking you haven't ironed out the build order. You have to quite crisp in everything.
Need a replay to see what you're doing wrong though. The most trouble you should have with this build is muta or spine turtle. NOT 3 base aggression lul.
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The thing with 3base aggression vs ANY air opening from Toss is, IMO, that you as a Zerg should attack way before you are maxed out. There is just no reason to wait that long when you can rally everything you got and crush the Toss between 10:00-10:30.
This is before the MS is out and from the replay OP provided vs. the Toss has a single cannon, a single phoenix and a single voidray at 10:00, with just a single warpgate ready for a warp-in. 7 additional gateways are done at 10:40 and the MS pops at 10:50. That's a huge timing window for the zerg to simply walk into the Toss base and kill everything. A 'well' executed Stephano roach max should easily be able to have 20+ roaches and 20+ lings along with reinforcement breaking down the Toss' natural at 10:20, then give these zerg forces 30 seconds of free reign before you can hope to do much about it, please prove me wrong if you feel I am, but I just don't see it working out so well for the Toss.
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On August 29 2012 17:17 FataLe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 15:20 Enzymatic wrote:
My experiences with this build at Mid-Masters level...
- Its great if they are going with a fast 4th more passive macro style play with the late-game Infestor-Broodlord comp in mind. I can win games nearly 80-90% of the time. The 10-20% left out are the games where I will make a mistake and lose as result.
- Its terrible if they're going with a 3-base aggressive build revolving around Stephanos 12 Minute roach max. Like if they just slam into your front at like 11-11:30 with all the roaches they have... Its pretty much instant loss.
So this build has its ups and downs. High-Masters/GM level here. Never lost to any kind of 3 Base aggression (where i haven't fucked up my first vortex). I'm thinking you haven't ironed out the build order. You have to quite crisp in everything. Need a replay to see what you're doing wrong though. The most trouble you should have with this build is muta or spine turtle. NOT 3 base aggression lul.
I have a few questions.
1. How many sentries do you typically have by the time you take your third?
2. At what game time roughly do you drop the Templar archives?
3. At what game time do you typically start to make your first archon?
Thanks for the help 
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On August 29 2012 20:53 Enzymatic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 17:17 FataLe wrote:On August 29 2012 15:20 Enzymatic wrote:
My experiences with this build at Mid-Masters level...
- Its great if they are going with a fast 4th more passive macro style play with the late-game Infestor-Broodlord comp in mind. I can win games nearly 80-90% of the time. The 10-20% left out are the games where I will make a mistake and lose as result.
- Its terrible if they're going with a 3-base aggressive build revolving around Stephanos 12 Minute roach max. Like if they just slam into your front at like 11-11:30 with all the roaches they have... Its pretty much instant loss.
So this build has its ups and downs. High-Masters/GM level here. Never lost to any kind of 3 Base aggression (where i haven't fucked up my first vortex). I'm thinking you haven't ironed out the build order. You have to quite crisp in everything. Need a replay to see what you're doing wrong though. The most trouble you should have with this build is muta or spine turtle. NOT 3 base aggression lul. I have a few questions. 1. How many sentries do you typically have by the time you take your third? 2. At what game time roughly do you drop the Templar archives? 3. At what game time do you typically start to make your first archon? Thanks for the help
1. Only one, if you make sentries that aren't necessary you delay tech.
2. Archives get dropped at 10 minutes.
3. First archon comes at 11 minutes.
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On August 29 2012 18:56 Gyoza wrote:
The thing with 3base aggression vs ANY air opening from Toss is, IMO, that you as a Zerg should attack way before you are maxed out. There is just no reason to wait that long when you can rally everything you got and crush the Toss between 10:00-10:30.
This is before the MS is out and from the replay OP provided vs. the Toss has a single cannon, a single phoenix and a single voidray at 10:00, with just a single warpgate ready for a warp-in. 7 additional gateways are done at 10:40 and the MS pops at 10:50. That's a huge timing window for the zerg to simply walk into the Toss base and kill everything. A 'well' executed Stephano roach max should easily be able to have 20+ roaches and 20+ lings along with reinforcement breaking down the Toss' natural at 10:20, then give these zerg forces 30 seconds of free reign before you can hope to do much about it, please prove me wrong if you feel I am, but I just don't see it working out so well for the Toss.
The problem with that is, the Z isn't supposed to know you're going charge/archon. For all he knows once he reaches your base you could have 4 gates worth of sentry stalker + more stargate units on the way. I mean, if Z wants to roll the dice and commit to an attack that he's not sure is going to do damage then that's okay. But it's definitely not the standard response to seeing a Stargate/Star units.
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Going for the Stephano Roach max style, you will have the units either way. There is absolutely nothing wrong with walking cross map with your amy and Stephano does so quite often. He mainly wants to check for a third base, if there is one he wants to deny it.. If there isn't, he simply backs off and takes a forth while droning up and teching.
Replay pack 6: http://www.mediafire.com/?otf7hl2bpplz3w9
Stephano vs MC on Cloud Kingdom -> MC opens stargate 1 void + a handfull phoenixes with 4gates to back it up, Stephano counter attacks (forgets roach speed) scouts third base and a bunch of stalker sentry to defend it, no biggie; Stephano backs off and takes a fourth while droning up.
Stephano vs MC on Entomed Valley -> MC opens stargate 1 void + handfull of phoenix with 4gates, Stephano defends the oncoming protoss army with ling/roach and spore/queen, when attack is held off he counter attacks, sees no third, sees plenty of units. Backs off and takes a fourth while droning up.
Stephano vs Parting on Antiga Shipyard -> Parting opens double stargate voidray, Stephano counter attacks with everything that can't shoot up, defends with spore+queen while smashing the front.
Now picture Stephano vs. this 2 base MS rush into zealot archon, he sees a void and a phoenix, defends accordingly.. Walks cross the map, sees nothing, no third base, no units other than the voidray trying to do something futile.. Sends a ling up the ramp, sees nothing but a cannon. GG
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On August 30 2012 07:04 Gyoza wrote:Going for the Stephano Roach max style, you will have the units either way. There is absolutely nothing wrong with walking cross map with your amy and Stephano does so quite often. He mainly wants to check for a third base, if there is one he wants to deny it.. If there isn't, he simply backs off and takes a forth while droning up and teching. Replay pack 6: http://www.mediafire.com/?otf7hl2bpplz3w9Stephano vs MC on Cloud Kingdom -> MC opens stargate 1 void + a handfull phoenixes with 4gates to back it up, Stephano counter attacks (forgets roach speed) scouts third base and a bunch of stalker sentry to defend it, no biggie; Stephano backs off and takes a fourth while droning up. Stephano vs MC on Entomed Valley -> MC opens stargate 1 void + handfull of phoenix with 4gates, Stephano defends the oncoming protoss army with ling/roach and spore/queen, when attack is held off he counter attacks, sees no third, sees plenty of units. Backs off and takes a fourth while droning up. Stephano vs Parting on Antiga Shipyard -> Parting opens double stargate voidray, Stephano counter attacks with everything that can't shoot up, defends with spore+queen while smashing the front. Now picture Stephano vs. this 2 base MS rush into zealot archon, he sees a void and a phoenix, defends accordingly.. Walks cross the map, sees nothing, no third base, no units other than the voidray trying to do something futile.. Sends a ling up the ramp, sees nothing but a cannon. GG
I don't understand how any of this is relevant to the thread because none of these games involve a fast defensive mothership into a delayed third with a chargelot/archon composition. And who cares what Stephano would do? He doesn't scout much anyways; almost all of his plays are based upon direct reads on the opponent at LAN events.
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On August 30 2012 04:30 FataLe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 20:53 Enzymatic wrote:On August 29 2012 17:17 FataLe wrote:On August 29 2012 15:20 Enzymatic wrote:
My experiences with this build at Mid-Masters level...
- Its great if they are going with a fast 4th more passive macro style play with the late-game Infestor-Broodlord comp in mind. I can win games nearly 80-90% of the time. The 10-20% left out are the games where I will make a mistake and lose as result.
- Its terrible if they're going with a 3-base aggressive build revolving around Stephanos 12 Minute roach max. Like if they just slam into your front at like 11-11:30 with all the roaches they have... Its pretty much instant loss.
So this build has its ups and downs. High-Masters/GM level here. Never lost to any kind of 3 Base aggression (where i haven't fucked up my first vortex). I'm thinking you haven't ironed out the build order. You have to quite crisp in everything. Need a replay to see what you're doing wrong though. The most trouble you should have with this build is muta or spine turtle. NOT 3 base aggression lul. I have a few questions. 1. How many sentries do you typically have by the time you take your third? 2. At what game time roughly do you drop the Templar archives? 3. At what game time do you typically start to make your first archon? Thanks for the help 1. Only one, if you make sentries that aren't necessary you delay tech. 2. Archives get dropped at 10 minutes. 3. First archon comes at 11 minutes.
I've figured out my problem now.. I was making too many sentries which was delaying my mothership a lot because I would be 200 gas short always.
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On August 30 2012 13:29 ineversmile wrote:
I don't understand how any of this is relevant to the thread because none of these games involve a fast defensive mothership into a delayed third with a chargelot/archon composition. And who cares what Stephano would do? He doesn't scout much anyways; almost all of his plays are based upon direct reads on the opponent at LAN events.
It is relevant in the discussion regarding how the 2 base MS rush into zealot archon would fare against a Stephano roach max style of play.
p00n was asked to include a replay to his guide of his opponent going for the Stephano roach max style:
+ Show Spoiler +On July 18 2012 00:23 kcdc wrote:
p00n, I think that if you're going to claim that you can hold a third against Stephano style roaches, you should post a few replays of you doing so. Right now, your guide has none which is a big problem for its credibility. Requirements for a qualifying replay:
-Zerg has at least 160 supply by 11:00 (with nearly perfect macro, this can be 200, but we'll give it some slack and require that they're merely macroing well).
-Zerg begins to attack by 11:30 or earlier.
-Zerg doesn't do anything clearly awful in terms of control like getting his whole army in a single vortex or standing his units still or not splitting his forces at all. Ideally, we'd want to see a game where Zerg controls well, including splitting forces threatening both the third and the natural, getting as few units caught in vortex as possible, and kiting effectively while continuing to produce reinforcements, but we'll lower our replay standards to just competent control.
If Zerg gets an infestation pit, a hydra den, a spire, or drops before attacking, don't pick that replay. That 3-base roach timing was watered down by extra tech.
p00n provided this replay in response to that:
+ Show Spoiler +On July 20 2012 11:41 the p00n wrote:http://replayfu.com/download/CQdv5dGuy has 55 drones and 4 hatches at 8 mins and floods lings/roaches at me. I mess up dearly, but it is still fairly onesided.
Everyone who checked that replay, myself included, stood in unison that the Zerg player didn't live up to the criterias of what is known as the Stephano roach max style of play, as such I continued the theory crafting and put forward my view on the matter:
vs. air play from toss while doing the Stephano roach style, you will find yourself in a situation where you have a growing army of roach/ling that can't do anything particularly useful in defending the air assault, so you might as well walk across the map checking out what the Toss is up to.
FataLe then told me, counter attacking isn't a standard response when seeing airplay, and the zerg isn't supposed to know what you are up to, so the fact that you don't have an army to defend vs 3 base aggresion isn't an issue with the 2base MS rush build.
+ Show Spoiler +On August 30 2012 04:34 FataLe wrote:
The problem with that is, the Z isn't supposed to know you're going charge/archon. For all he knows once he reaches your base you could have 4 gates worth of sentry stalker + more stargate units on the way. I mean, if Z wants to roll the dice and commit to an attack that he's not sure is going to do damage then that's okay. But it's definitely not the standard response to seeing a Stargate/Star units.
To back my claims up I checked Stephano's response (because it is his very strategy that we are dicussing vs OP's build) to airplay from Toss. In all those games I mentioned, Stephano went for the counter play to either deny a third, kill his opponent and just get general scouting information.
I claim that any such move from the zerg, vs OP's build would kill the Toss there and then.
That's why it is relevant.
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Let me rephrase this: none of your evidence is relevant because they aren't replays of this style being used. The only thing that could possibly be relevant to this discussion is seeing a ~12 minute Roach Max attack against a fast mothership build. Without the mothership on the map, the game is 100% different. You can't simulate that kind of third defense; the only thing that acts that way is a mothership.
And if anything, the triple hatch Roach Max strategy belongs to DongRaeGu, not Stephano. He went further in more relevant tournaments than Stephano did, and both players used that style from about the same point in time.
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well, found a thread related to what protoss are trying lately
I'm zerg btw, and when I see a gas greedy build like this the easy answer to it is just bane bust the wall for an easy win.
I don't see how a toss can hold with just 1 gate and 1 or 2 air units, you need at least 3 sentries to stop it. Why I say gas greedy? well the protoss should play kind of safe adding some sentries or at least scouting first with zealot stalker ( this is also very risky versus a bane bust), this build skips this.
ways of knowing something is being gas greedy?, no upgrade on forge nor chronobusts on the core, only one zealo, very fast third or fourth gas, you poke with an overlord at natural and no sentry or stalkers pushes you back for example.
Do you have any replay where you stop a bane bust with this build?
prefably the 7:20 min bane bust by Zenio
Imo the build is as allinish as a bane bust since it cuts so many corners to tech heavily without units.
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Protos should scout no third base and change his build a bit for more defensive one.
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On August 30 2012 18:55 ineversmile wrote:
Let me rephrase this: none of your evidence is relevant because they aren't replays of this style being used. The only thing that could possibly be relevant to this discussion is seeing a ~12 minute Roach Max attack against a fast mothership build. Without the mothership on the map, the game is 100% different. You can't simulate that kind of third defense; the only thing that acts that way is a mothership.
And if anything, the triple hatch Roach Max strategy belongs to DongRaeGu, not Stephano. He went further in more relevant tournaments than Stephano did, and both players used that style from about the same point in time.
My point being, in the scenario where we have a Stephano Roach max vs. 2 Base MS rush (where the Mothership pops out between 10:40 and 11:10 (from the replays OP provided))
Having scouted airplay and goes for an attack between the 10:00 and the 10:30, the Zerg should in theory, with next to no issues at all, be able to bust the front and do insurmountable damage before the MS even comes into play.
No I don't have concrete evidence of this claim in terms of a replay, and neither does OP as of yet.
If OP can't find a practice partner at his skill level, I've already offered my help previously in this thread.
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wanna see u defend a decently executed drop agression build. ull just die on all fronts with ur build
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On August 30 2012 22:02 Avicularia wrote:
Protos should scout no third base and change his build a bit for more defensive one.
If I do remember correctly, Zenio banneling bust is off 3 bases.
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If there's a problem with bust timings, those specific timings can be adressed by rearranging the build order and figuring out what to scout for to see that coming. It doesn't matter if it's a Zenio-eque baneling bust off of 3 hatches or it's 2 base muta or a 12 minute Roach/Ling max-out; all aggression can be thwarted eventually with the right arrangements.
The way I see it? If you use Warp Prisms and proxy pylons around the edge of the map, you can get that same awesome surface area without a fast mothership by warping in chargelot flanks and getting surrounds. You don't need to bend over backwards to handle a roach max-out; you can do it with just chargelots, positioning, and a handful of ranged units.
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When you say mutalisks are very annoying , do you mean an auto loss? If Zerg hits timing properly / scouts 1stargate or a fleet beacon, good mutalisk control , proper macro will shut this build down 100%, even if u do just get pheonix off 1 stargate, the void ray is going to prove pointless vs the mutalisks, only will do good vs roaches. When the mothership pops, it will have to wait for 100 energy, so bassically it will be pointless untill then, and even then you will need archons to be able to kill the mutalisk's, and if he controls mutalisks properly, and you miss 1 vortex, you should also auto lose...I'm sorry but this is not a legit build, it is a build where you cross you're fingers and hope for the best...interesting though.
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EPT
