EPT
[G] short guide on easy wins in PvZ - Page 19
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kmillz
United States1548 Posts
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On August 31 2012 02:54 GGzerG wrote: When you say mutalisks are very annoying , do you mean an auto loss? If Zerg hits timing properly / scouts 1stargate or a fleet beacon, good mutalisk control , proper macro will shut this build down 100%, even if u do just get pheonix off 1 stargate, the void ray is going to prove pointless vs the mutalisks, only will do good vs roaches. When the mothership pops, it will have to wait for 100 energy, so bassically it will be pointless untill then, and even then you will need archons to be able to kill the mutalisk's, and if he controls mutalisks properly, and you miss 1 vortex, you should also auto lose...I'm sorry but this is not a legit build, it is a build where you cross you're fingers and hope for the best...interesting though. I have been a fan of your stream for a while (though I haven't watched it for a couple months or so) and I like the way you think about the game; I respect your opinion because I've seen your play on both sides of the match-up. However, I think that you're oversimplifying the situation drastically. If the protoss is in stargate tech, he is responsible for using his air units to figure out what's coming his way. Even without seeing the spire, the protoss should be able to deduce a spire by seeing things like a lot of speedlings with double evo or no infestation pit or no roaches/warren or a full 6 gases taken; even spine crawlers can be a tell. And even if it's not deduced, he should be able to narrow down the timings and at least have preparation if mutas are suspected. If there's a suspicion of mutas, the proper response from stargate is to have an initial squad of 4-5 phoenixes on the map, to build a fleet beacon for range, and to go up to ~8 phoenixes to keep the mutas busy while you wait for range. That often means you cancel certain tech structures and upgrades in order to go straight for range. Fortunately, this build (fast mothership) already plans to get a fleet beacon, so you can get range even more quickly and not only solve the muta aggression, but even punish it because they can never move on the map again without some kind of help because one small active squad of phoenixes will tear them all to shreds. Probably the reason why this build is considered an 'autoloss' to mutas is that: 1. The protoss isn't scouting properly using his stargate, so he doesn't have enough information at hand to narrow down the zerg's tech to mutas and maybe one or two other heavy-ling compositions. 2. The protoss isn't adapting to the situation and directly teching to phoenix range to solve the problem. 3. Phoenix against Muta is a volatile, micro-based fight and it's really easy to screw that up. But eventually, this problem won't be that common anymore, just like how protosses in the GSL used to screw up forcefields on narrow ramps all the time and die to 2Raxes...how often do they mess that up anymore? And to compound the issue, in PvZ the industry standard has generally been to use blink stalkers as the major core unit of your army, and the dynamic of Mutas vs Blink Stalkers is completely different from that of Mutas vs Phoenixes. On August 31 2012 03:49 kmillz wrote: Still waiting for a replay of a competent zerg going 12 min roach max I'm ~1k masters on NA. Right now I'm pretty exhausted and therefore not capable of playing starcraft worth a damn, but in 12+ hours or so, after I've slept, I'm willing to play this against the 12 min roach max, just so we can have some actual replays of it in this thread. I'll have to warm up a little bit with this build since I play a much more pressure-based tempo style in general (a lot of 13 gate openings), but I'm very accustomed to chargelots in PvZ so I can probably do the build some justice. At worst, we'll have replays of me getting smashed by the 12 min max, so we can analyze something tangible instead of theoretical nonsense. If a zerg wants to do this, shoot me a PM or hit me up on NA server. I'm ineversmile.950. | ||
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phodacbiet
United States1739 Posts
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FataLe
New Zealand4481 Posts
On August 31 2012 05:00 phodacbiet wrote: How will this build deal with a zerg that just do ling infestor? You cant really expect to establish a third with zerglings trying to stop it and if you show your mothership too early zerg can mass corruptors to stop you. Also, 11:30 roach max is outdated and doesnt even work most of the time anymore so if any zerg still attempt to go for it ESPECIALLY after seeing a void ray is just asking to lose imo. Why can't I take a third? I have +1 zealots and a mothership with charge almost ready. No amount of multi pronged attacks with lings would prove cost efficient for you at that stage of the game. | ||
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FataLe
New Zealand4481 Posts
On August 31 2012 02:54 GGzerG wrote: When you say mutalisks are very annoying , do you mean an auto loss? If Zerg hits timing properly / scouts 1stargate or a fleet beacon, good mutalisk control , proper macro will shut this build down 100%, even if u do just get pheonix off 1 stargate, the void ray is going to prove pointless vs the mutalisks, only will do good vs roaches. When the mothership pops, it will have to wait for 100 energy, so bassically it will be pointless untill then, and even then you will need archons to be able to kill the mutalisk's, and if he controls mutalisks properly, and you miss 1 vortex, you should also auto lose...I'm sorry but this is not a legit build, it is a build where you cross you're fingers and hope for the best...interesting though. Nope, not really. With this build you'll more than likely scout muta 90% of the time. If I scout it I have archons, charge, pheonix. That means I have templar tech. I wait 'till storm and push to win. At least, that's from my experience facing muta. Most Zergs don't even want to stick with muta once they see such an early templar archives, but a one that does is signing his own death sentence imo. | ||
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FataLe
New Zealand4481 Posts
On August 30 2012 20:36 Nakranoth wrote: well, found a thread related to what protoss are trying lately I'm zerg btw, and when I see a gas greedy build like this the easy answer to it is just bane bust the wall for an easy win. I don't see how a toss can hold with just 1 gate and 1 or 2 air units, you need at least 3 sentries to stop it. Why I say gas greedy? well the protoss should play kind of safe adding some sentries or at least scouting first with zealot stalker ( this is also very risky versus a bane bust), this build skips this. ways of knowing something is being gas greedy?, no upgrade on forge nor chronobusts on the core, only one zealo, very fast third or fourth gas, you poke with an overlord at natural and no sentry or stalkers pushes you back for example. Do you have any replay where you stop a bane bust with this build? prefably the 7:20 min bane bust by Zenio Imo the build is as allinish as a bane bust since it cuts so many corners to tech heavily without units. let me check timings and i'll get back to you on this | ||
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FataLe
New Zealand4481 Posts
On August 31 2012 05:33 FataLe wrote: let me check timings and i'll get back to you on this only possible way to defend this i think is to go zealot sentry sentry. instead of zealot stalker sentry. but it would delay tech considerably. I suppose the only time i'd do that is if i scouted th gas as there is no other tell that they're being aggressive (aside from ling count if I get lucky scout). Or possibly drone count. | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
as long as you have the means to scout it, you can stop it. The OP already mentions it: I recommend chronoboosting a zealot or keeping your scouting probe alive to check for the zerg's 3rd base. Remember that some 2base all-ins can be quite difficult to hold if you don't scout them in time, and you don't wanna get caught with just one cannon and a sentry now do you? If you see him 2-basing you may wanna spend an extra chrono on your gateway, create an extra cannon, create an extra sentry... you know the drill, seeing as the FFE is a very dominant PvZ opening I assume you know these basics so I won't really get into them. zenio's bust is much harder to scout. you pretty much need to check the 3rd and sneak into the natural to get the drone count. If you see it, you chrono sentries, add cannons, and reinforce the wall. etc etc. it's not unique for this build at all. | ||
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phodacbiet
United States1739 Posts
On August 31 2012 03:49 kmillz wrote: Still waiting for a replay of a competent zerg going 12 min roach max Here are the replays of me testing it out with Ineversmile. We were testing it vs the 200 roach max build. (I think mutas will demolish this build or any sort of early agression since 1g sg is extremely greedy. Although I managed to beat him with it, I do not suggest doing the roach max vs this build, not because of the mothership, but because of the stargate. Anytime a toss 1 gate stargate means he will try to get fast third or do some sort of cute all in. With the stargate toss has ALL the map control since Zerg AA is pretty bad in the early/mid game. Behind the 1sg, toss usually can put down a robo to take the third (which is what a lot of them do vs me), meaning by the time your roach attack hits, FF + Immortals will demolish it. I also think the mother ship is not needed since Robo is cheaper and it serve the same function as the mother ship which is to protect the third. If anything, this build is a gimmicky build that is good in a BoX or vs random people on ladder because it might catches people off guard, but do not expect this to be a go to macro build that will win based on your own play. This build relies on your opponent fucking up, not you successfully executing. Expecting a vortex to hit clumped up broods relies on zerg not splitting. http://drop.sc/245031 In this first game, i think he just messed up and died. Nothing special. http://drop.sc/245032 He did better this game, but roaches can run around and abuse the immobility of this build. In my opinion, this build WILL work, but it is not a good go to macro build. I believe this is what the OP wanted people to see this build as, a good build to use in tourneys/ladder, but dont expect it to work more than once in a BoX. If anyone want to test this build more vs me just hit me up. | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
He started the templar archives when you started attacking, but he could have started it much earlier (floated gas for a while) and having archons in the fight would of course make a difference. Twilight finished at 9:15, but he started the archives at 11:30. Also he didn't consistently chronoboost the mothership, and one of the nexus was sitting at 100 energy. I counted two chronoboosts on the mothership instead of ... six or seven? I don't know exactly how many, but he had more available. An earlier vortex would have made things better for him. In the first game he comments that his 3rd was too far behind, but in reality he couldn't take it earlier because of those zerglings. In the second game he gets the 3rd base, but 1 void ray, 1 zelaot and 1 sentry can't hold a nexus against zerglings, especially on one gate, before warpgate even finishes. I think the 7:30 third relies too much on luck if you don't have any gateways. At worst, we'll have replays of me getting smashed by the 12 min max, so we can analyze something tangible instead of theoretical nonsense This is definitely more tangible  | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On September 01 2012 03:45 Oboeman wrote: Was the second game clean execution of the build? He started the templar archives when you started attacking, but he could have started it much earlier (floated gas for a while) and having archons in the fight would of course make a difference. Twilight finished at 9:15, but he started the archives at 11:30. Also he didn't consistently chronoboost the mothership, and one of the nexus was sitting at 100 energy. I counted two chronoboosts on the mothership instead of ... six or seven? I don't know exactly how many, but he had more available. An earlier vortex would have made things better for him. No, it wasn't clean at all. I'm too accustomed to opening 13 gate pressure into Nexus and having an actual army to take down the rocks, so reverting to FFE meant I botched a couple practice games (there was one or two more than the replays posted) because of rust. It's not that I don't know how to do a bunch of different FFE variants; I'm just used to different timings and I'm not used to needing to leave a gap in my wall-off so I can take my third without killing rocks (which takes forever). There was a game where I straight-up thought I built a twilight council in time to start +2 when it finished, and then when I went to upgrade +2, apparantly I had no council and we had to remake. It's not like I have bad macro, but I just haven't used the build in a few months because I want to be out on the map applying pressure and not turtling my face off. That's why I announced how much I hate this build at the end of the game; I'm not a fan of opening FFE and playing defensive because it's completely unnatural to my playstyle and to my understanding of how to fight against zerg (as any race). I did, however, want to show that you could hold the third against a Roach max, if you just play a dozen practice games. That second game was maybe the 4th game we played last night, and I'm pretty sure that if I had built a different sim-city at my third and had an earlier mothership, I would have held that, gone to 200 food and 15 gates, and just killed the zerg. I botched the defense and let lings in everywhere, but that wasn't the build order...that was me being unomfortable because I'm used to having about 20ish 2-2 chargelots and a couple of immortals at that point, instead of the mothership. In the first game he comments that his 3rd was too far behind, but in reality he couldn't take it earlier because of those zerglings. In the second game he gets the 3rd base, but 1 void ray, 1 zelaot and 1 sentry can't hold a nexus against zerglings, especially on one gate, before warpgate even finishes. I think the 7:30 third relies too much on luck if you don't have any gateways. You can take a fast third and then cancel it if a bunch of speedlings get made and show up at your third. If it's only 10 or less lings, though, a couple zealots and a void ray can handle the problem just fine. If a bigger commitment shows up, you're only out 100 minerals and you can dump the 300 refund right into 2 gateways and have a transition. It's not that you're banking on the third completing; it's more like you ask the zerg to stop it, and if he does, the commitment is greater than your commitment a majority of the time. Good. I'm glad there's some kind of replay to this thread. Now maybe someone who cares about this build can show a prettier execution and hold the third in a replay...I just can't stand playing this defensively, and I think the army composition can be relevant without a gimmicky fast mothership. But the gimmick opening holds a blind 12minute roach max; it's just stupid for a zerg to do that attack in the first place because if the protoss isn't ultra-rusty with the build, he's going to demolish the roaches. The key here is that you can trade all day long with Zealots, unlike with Stalkers. That's the power of the unit. | ||
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phodacbiet
United States1739 Posts
On September 01 2012 03:45 Oboeman wrote: Was the second game clean execution of the build? He started the templar archives when you started attacking, but he could have started it much earlier (floated gas for a while) and having archons in the fight would of course make a difference. Twilight finished at 9:15, but he started the archives at 11:30. Also he didn't consistently chronoboost the mothership, and one of the nexus was sitting at 100 energy. I counted two chronoboosts on the mothership instead of ... six or seven? I don't know exactly how many, but he had more available. An earlier vortex would have made things better for him. I do not think it was a clean execution and there are tiny things he could have done better. I do believe that it is possible to hold with this build because a cloaked third with cannons/zealots would be hard to bust with roaches especially on maps where nat and third are close to each other (ohana, antiga, etc). However, I am just testing out the 200 roach build vs. the mothership because people wanted to see if you can bust down the toss. It is doable, just VERY hard if the toss execute his build order correctly. Also, like i mentioned in my other post earlier, going roach max vs a Stargate opening is also quite dumb because if toss put down a robo and take fast third, roach max will lose. | ||
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FataLe
New Zealand4481 Posts
On August 31 2012 19:47 phodacbiet wrote: Here are the replays of me testing it out with Ineversmile. We were testing it vs the 200 roach max build. (I think mutas will demolish this build or any sort of early agression since 1g sg is extremely greedy. Although I managed to beat him with it, I do not suggest doing the roach max vs this build, not because of the mothership, but because of the stargate. Anytime a toss 1 gate stargate means he will try to get fast third or do some sort of cute all in. With the stargate toss has ALL the map control since Zerg AA is pretty bad in the early/mid game. Behind the 1sg, toss usually can put down a robo to take the third (which is what a lot of them do vs me), meaning by the time your roach attack hits, FF + Immortals will demolish it. I also think the mother ship is not needed since Robo is cheaper and it serve the same function as the mother ship which is to protect the third. If anything, this build is a gimmicky build that is good in a BoX or vs random people on ladder because it might catches people off guard, but do not expect this to be a go to macro build that will win based on your own play. This build relies on your opponent fucking up, not you successfully executing. Expecting a vortex to hit clumped up broods relies on zerg not splitting. http://drop.sc/245031 In this first game, i think he just messed up and died. Nothing special. http://drop.sc/245032 He did better this game, but roaches can run around and abuse the immobility of this build. In my opinion, this build WILL work, but it is not a good go to macro build. I believe this is what the OP wanted people to see this build as, a good build to use in tourneys/ladder, but dont expect it to work more than once in a BoX. If anyone want to test this build more vs me just hit me up. Hit the nail on the fucking head. People keep coming into this thread and yelling nonsense, 'oh this loses to X' or 'this isn't a real build' or 'this wouldn't work at the pro level' This is a guide to easy wins on ladder in PvZ. OP boasts a 92% winrate, as ludicrous as it sounds mine is closer to 95%. This was never about will this work over and over again, or pro level competition. This was about EZ fucking wins, and this does just that - Giving you an absurd win-rate with little effort applied at all. Sure, the build as flaws what build doesn't? But up until around tip top Masters you'll enjoy a 90% winrate. Who doesn't want that? Oh, and for the record, most Zergs I face over and over don't manage to compete with it until about the 4th try. So it is re-usable, albeit until you face better players. | ||
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Hetz
196 Posts
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etherealfall
Australia476 Posts
On September 02 2012 16:29 Hetz wrote: If this build is so God-like, why don't we ever see it used by the pro's at MLG or GSL? Did you read the post above yours? | ||
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FortMonty
United States63 Posts
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
But up until around tip top Masters you'll enjoy a 90% winrate. Who doesn't want that? Well, if that's all that matter you can just 3 pylon block the guy and enjoy your 90% winrate with a lot less longer game. ^^ | ||
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Avicularia
540 Posts
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DeathToSquid
United States20 Posts
If he never transitions out of mutas, build cannons and get storm before you move out. 90% of the time he will just end up trading his mutas inefficiently after trying to harass for a bit in order to open up supply (or due to making a mistake and getting fried by archons). Edit: The warp prism usually makes his mutas leave and kill it, giving you breathing room, and warping in zealots often lets you snipe a 4th hatch if he is trying to take one. The prism will probably die. Don't carry units in it, just warp in when you get there because it may get sniped while moving out if you lose track of the mutas - so in the worst case you will lose 200 mins. | ||
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SpooN04
Canada106 Posts
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