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On August 15 2012 10:01 Spec wrote:
I feel like, in some conspiracy, p00n is the only honest Protoss in this thread. The rest of people post here with "sorry to burst your bubble..." just try to cover up the power of this gracefully powerful strategy of simplicity..
pretty much. he doesn't hide the fact that he sits back on 3 bases and then a moves. he encourages it. which is what attracted me in the first place. what's awesome is that it's working on high masters + mid tier GM zergs over on SEA. That is, i've made a few alterations to the build to suit my style.
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Okay, so after a month and playing dozens and dozens of games, here's my feedback on the build and how I adapted it:
- I lost a lot to 200/200 timing push, often mixed with hydras. 90% of the time Zerg will scout the stargate, and if you're unlucky, he may even scout the fleet beacon. When Zerg realizes you're not overly agressive, he goes for a 200 timing push, between 12' and 13'. I kept having trouble surviving that.
- so I skipped the initial voidray/phoenix to prefer a robo and an obs for scouting early. Also helps to determine if he's going for mutas. If I see roaches, I chrono immortals. Here's the thing: immortals only cost 100 gas, so it doesn't really delay the rest of the build that much, you'll have a few less zealots due to the 250 minerals cost, but as far as tech and archons go, it makes almost no difference. When Zerg pushes, you have 3-4 immortals, and I find those invaluable to hold the push.
- I totally changed my way to play the end game. I actually encourage Zerg to sit on their ass, take 5+ bases and tech to infestors/brood lords. While they're doing that, I get up to 20 gates and 2 warp prisms. Around the 15-16' mark, as they start morphing their first brood lords, I start multi pronged harass with 10 zealots on a side and 10 zealots on another side. My goal is to snippe tech buildings and hatcheries, and I pretty much ignore any defense. As Zerg is pulling back to defend one side, I keep warping pure zealots on the other side. Meanwhile I'm securing my fourth expo. I reproduce prisms as soon as I lose one.
- I keep using multi pronged zealots attacks during many minutes. I do not warp additional units, or spend any gas at all, on my main army. I even sacrifice my main army's zealots on a triple frontal attack when I see his army off pos. As minutes elapse, I keep my minerals low, and I accumule a shitton of gas.
- eventually Zerg's eco is getting bad and he goes for an all-in, big final attack. With my 20 gates I instantly warp mass archons. I position my mothership and my army strategically, with a few canons behind ( he'll typically attack at an expo ). Land two vortexes, put archons in it, reprod with 20 gates of blink stalkers..
- game ends here in rage and insults ( some Zergs even say I'm abusing the game mechanics.. all good ! ).
- using this strat I have a 90% winrate when it comes to the late game PvZ. I did lose a few times to base trading, stupid mistakes like having the MS alone in the center of the map ( bad hotkey ), or getting my MS neural-parasited. I'm thinking of adding 3-4 colossi to the army compo while I'm harassing with mass chargelots, this should make NP become a non-issue.
Here's a game as a demonstration:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-269735.jpg)
It's interesting to see how fast the game goes out of control for Zerg. At the 20' mark, I bet everybody would agree he's ahead. He's taking his fifth, he has 11 infestors, 17 corruptors and is going to start to morph BLs, and I have a pretty small army with only 6 archons, 4 immortals, 2 voidrays, the rest is zealots. Yet 2 minutes later he'll rage quit after losing his fourth, fifth, and with zealots in his main and soon to be snipped third.
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Thanks for that Nyast. A game worth studying.
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After watching the game in detail, and thinking about it, I have a few things to say.
Don't you think that if zerg was more aggressive you would have difficulty in holding the attack? If instead of going into passive macro mode he decided to make a few corruptors and overseers and just attacked could you have held? At the very least he could deny your third by a lot. I think such aggressiveness would be a proper response for someone teching so hard.
Even in the late game, had he decided to attack after losing those hatcheries I think without a pretty lucky vortex zerg would win that fight.
TLDR; If nothing else this game really displays how effective mass harass can be against a zerg when they go all out macro mode, but I think this style leaves your main army too thin, and the aggressive teching weak in the early game.
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Here's another one that shows harass in end game, with another rage-quit as he loses all his bases except his natural:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-269776.jpg)
In that game, I can easily defend his pushes, however I forget to research charge before I start the harass, normally I get it much faster.
The mid game can sometimes indeed be tricky. You're investing a lot in that mothership ( Stargate, Fleet beacon, MS ) and you won't really produce that many air units. I stay with a single voidray and phoenix for a long time. The voidray is mostly to hunt overseers if he tries to attack with roaches only. The phoenix is to hunt overlords on the map and scout. Pure roaches push isn't scary, but the one with hydras can be. Fortunately it's a bit later, so you can have archons and charge ready ( plus a ton of gates ) at that time.
Also, mutas can be troublesome, and usually end up in a base trade that I win 50% of the time ( that's why my late game PvZ is "only" 80-90% wins, mutas base trade low it down ).
You'll notice that at the very end I'm floating 4K gas. That's not a mistake. I'm accumulating gas until Zerg decides to attack. I can insta warp a shitton of archons as I have 25 gates. In that game I also forgot to research blink and to get a few colossi, but it doesn't matter, there's no way he could have won even if he decided to counter.
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Tip top masters/GM level play on SEA here.
okay I've been using the build for 3 days straight laddering. I can confirm a 92% winrate vs zerg. Like the OP states, pretty much my only losses are to funky muta transitions which i've failed to scout. Or an early (12 minute - 14 minute) miss vortex (don't play when you're tired). Otherwise, decision making, and patient play carries you to a sure win. I do however, add lategame harass because my apm allows it and i have an excess of minerals. Great guide, great build.
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FataLe, do you think you could post up some replays for us?
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Just encountered this in ladder, it is very effective, and quite difficult to deal with it head on, infestors/curropter is just too much gas invested >><<
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On August 20 2012 09:34 ineversmile wrote:
FataLe, do you think you could post up some replays for us?
Sure.
Vs Fenner rank 26 GM Zerg (last week rank 8)
Goes for some form of medium econ, speed roach pressure once scouting my Mothership. Pretty standard - Cannon your 3rd.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-269872.jpg)
Vs Dipstick rank 56 GM Zerg
How a miss vortex that early in the game can prove to be Fatal. Also the importance of cannoning your 3rd.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-269873.jpg)
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how to win as protoss? easy just FF every chance u get against a zerg in early game since we cant do anything about it. And make sure u just stay next to a wall and have global stalkers so u can win with 2 units. 10 min games. EZ PZ
User was warned for this post
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On August 20 2012 13:33 Trollandknights wrote:
how to win as protoss? easy just FF every chance u get against a zerg in early game since we cant do anything about it. And make sure u just stay next to a wall and have global stalkers so u can win with 2 units. 10 min games. EZ PZ
it's funny you should say that. This build requires neither.
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Q: Mass cracklings?
A: gooby pls
Ahahaha that was good!
I'm politely refraining from critique as I'm not masters, but I just couldn't resist pointing that out!
I will say that if you can own top level players, though, then this build definitely has promise, unlike some other builds I've seen on these forums that tried to use mothership.
Still, can this build beat the best? All due respect to the masters and GMs of the world, but the better pros are orders of magnitude above them, capable of adapting to wonky strategies mid-series to take the win. The only way to know if the build is fool-proof is if it faces the ultimate test: the pro level.
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On August 20 2012 14:02 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:Ahahaha that was good! I'm politely refraining from critique as I'm not masters, but I just couldn't resist pointing that out! I will say that if you can own top level players, though, then this build definitely has promise, unlike some other builds I've seen on these forums that tried to use mothership. Still, can this build beat the best? All due respect to the masters and GMs of the world, but the better pros are orders of magnitude above them, capable of adapting to wonky strategies mid-series to take the win. The only way to know if the build is fool-proof is if it faces the ultimate test: the pro level.
Earlier on in this thread it had a Protoss vs Ostijiy or however his name is spelled. I don't think it would work in a pro level consistently, but it's definitely a build pros could use in a bo x series.
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Thanks for posting the replay.
i have try this build it's great but i do lose to roach max + infestors
The problems in this game have very little to do with his army, but a lot to do with your build and resource management. I would recommend practicing the build, almost all of your problems come from your beginning not being very polished.
Your mothership and archon tech were both delayed quite a bit, and after about 8:40 it seemed that you were floating a lot of minerals and gas. Your mothership came out at 12:40 and you still had no archons, so your 3rd was undefended and everything fell behind. I will try to give a step by step analysis of how this happened.
At first, I really liked your build, and I thought it was ballsy to get the cyber before cannon :D
1) You scout with a zealot, despite having a forward probe. You need to scout for a 3rd earlier because if he is 2 basing you need to change your build, get cannons, etc. Use a probe, as you are so low on units in this build that you want to save them all in case he attacks
2) All of your tech started to fall behind because you got +1, which is not necessary right away. @5:35 you could have gotten a stargate, because of the +1 you didn't start it until 6:40. That means your mamma ship was delayed by a whole minute. You want to delay the +1 and get out the mothership faster.
3)@ 8:00 you could get a fleet beacon. Instead, you get a 2nd void ray, which is relatively useless. The VR is there to take map control and deal with really early roaches, one VR can do this almost as well as 2. Because of this 2nd void ray, your fleet beacon was delayed until 8:40.
4)@9:40 your fleet beacon is done. The mama ship wasn't started until 10:10.
5) Only 2 chrono boosts were used on the mothership. You can use 5 chronos on it, which will drop the build time by 30 additional secs (beyond the 20 secs you sped it up with the 2 chrono boosts)
6) All in all, comments 2-5 delayed your mothership by about 2 and a half minutes. Your mothership came out at 12:30. Assuming you were able to cut into this even a little bit, you should be able to have your mothership at the natural by 11:30 (This is where I am in my games, and I'm in plat not diamond and I usually get cannon before cyber). If you had, then it would have been out in time to defend your 3rd and your late game economy would have been much, much better.
7) You delay the archon tech way too much. Delay the +1, and don't get the second VR, use that gas to get archons out at 11 or so (for me it is usually shortly before the mothership). As soon as you have gas, be putting it into archon tech.
8) At about 7:20 you money starts going crazy, it only momentarily goes down because you have 2 VR and 1 pheonix cued. This problem is never fixed, and is one of the biggest holes in your play.
9)At 8:40 you have money for an expand and cannons, but you don't get an expand (edit: If you are getting tech and producing properly you should not have that much money this early, so my following comment is moot). If you had used the money then you would have had the cannons up in time for the lings, instead they were still morphing. You can even get the pylon and cannons out before the nexus if you are worried about defense.
After losing the 3rd, you are put way behind so I'm not sure how useful further commentary is - the key is not making that early mistake. I'll comment anyways though, just for fun.
10) Your building and army position was off. DO NOT create a narrow choke at the third 3rd, your army is good in the open, not in small chokes (vortex can be great in large chokes, but not tiny ones). The way your army was positioned, if he had attacked the 3rd your zealots would not have been able to engage. Just build cannons hugging your 3rd and leave space so your melee units can attack.
11) Scout! You have no vision once you get into the mid game, so you don't even know he has an army or where it is. Try keeping the pheonix alive and patrol around the map with it as long as possible (I usually don't lost it until he gets out a lot of corruptors).
12) at 14:00 you have 900 gas, and it has been high for a long time!!!!!!! Your gas is never low, try to not let it get above 300 (enough for an archon). Prioritize archons over zealots.
13) During the final fight, your angle was terrible. The fight went so bad that essentially no archons got into the vortex. Because of moving through the choke, all of your units were in in a drawn out line, trickling into his arc. With this build you have to position like a zerg and surround him!! Also, you moved your archons in first. The archons need to be in the back, the zealots are there to tank for the archons. As it was, your main damage dealers all died and you were left with just zealots, which is terrible. Keep the archons alive!!! Mostly I think this was a scouting problem, and you got messed up by the choke you built at your 3rd.
14) During the last fight you had 1300 gas and 800 minerals. This would have been a lot different with 4 more archons and 4 more zealots, esecially if the archons had been in back / gotten in the toilet and your army hadn't been trickling in one by one. Even better, if you had vortexed your ramp while he was moving up you probably would have won the fight despite being way behind where you should have been (due to the early game hit to your economy from losing the 3rd).
15) Later on I don't think you had enough gates for a 3 base zealot archon economy. You want a bare minimum of 12-15 gates on 3 base, as zealots and templar are relatively cheap units (and thus more taxing on your production) 20-25 gates in the later mid game is not unreasonable, with more as you approach maxed. Also, mid game the +2 was delayed.
tl;dr Practice against the comp until you can get out a 3rd, archon tech and a mothership by about 11:30 (alternatively, have more gates/army at 11:30, but no 3rd). Polish your build and stop floating so much money, and you will destroy those pesky zerg!
Take a look at the first replay of FataLe to get a build to practice: I he has a mothership, templar archives, 8 gates, and +1 with +2 on the way at 11:30, with a third on the way.
Good luck.
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Your name really inspires confidence in your validity xD
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thank you sir
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how often does this work vs basetrade scenarios?
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On July 20 2012 11:41 the p00n wrote:http://replayfu.com/download/CQdv5dGuy has 55 drones and 4 hatches at 8 mins and floods lings/roaches at me. I mess up dearly, but it is still fairly onesided.
That wasn't a very refined Stephano style roach max... He never went over 150 supply and this peak was reached at 15:40 =S
In my eyes he actually could have won that game had he reacted properly (even despite the lackluster macro, not saturating his third being the biggest flaw), as soon as Stephano is being attacked by a FFE Toss who went air, he simply box everything he's got and attacks the front between 10:00-10:30,and at 10:20 your Zerg opponent had 24 speedlings just chilling outside a base defended by a single cannon and a gaping hole in the wall the size of a pylon with only one gateway free to warp in = not enough to hold. But he waited 25 seconds instead, without even checking the ramp, and lets your extra gates finish and gives the mothership time to come out.
A well executed Stephano roach style would also be able to back those 24 lings up with about the same number in roaches.
I can't really see your build holding that off.
I'm only Diamond but if you can't find anyone else to spar against with the ability to bust out a decent Stephano roach max, I'm willing to give it a shot.
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how often does this work vs basetrade scenarios?
I don't really know what you mean - why would you want to do a base trade? Just... don't lose your base. Really base trades are more about getting out workers, map awareness, scouting, etc. than your army composition in my opinion, but this build should not end in a base trade very often.
I'm only Diamond but if you can't find anyone else to spar against with the ability to bust out a decent Stephano roach max, I'm willing to give it a shot.
Are you on North America? If so, send me your infoto loove_fish@hotmail.com and lets play! I'm only plat so you will probably stomp me but it should be fun :D
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EPT
