EPT[G] short guide on easy wins in PvZ - Page 15
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RiSkysc2
696 Posts
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Eifer
United States138 Posts
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
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DeathToSquid
United States20 Posts
For a long time, a FFE was considered a gimmick because people thought there was no way you could survive a range of openings with so few early units. Now it is the most popular opening in PvZ. To prove this is build a gimmick, figure out how to reliably counter it in a game. If, however, it can reliably be pulled off and adapted to deal with anything the Zerg can throw at it, what makes it a gimmick? To me that just makes a solid, original build. | ||
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Primal666
Slovenia418 Posts
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Yokoblue
Canada594 Posts
On July 31 2012 07:01 Primal666 wrote: to any one having truble, upgraded roach hydra are good against this, tried it twice on ladder, but i'm only diamond:S I really really dont think its good against that... mass roach lose to it and Hydras die to both Archons and Zealot charge... And no protoss is going to let your snipe the mothership with hydras... | ||
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Tolazytobecreative
Germany17 Posts
this strat is utter bullshit and the only reason why it works is because zergs on OP's level dont know wtf they just scouted and will then be confused and just do random things wich will actually make them lose. Why is it bullshit? because you could never hold your third with this. you could just drop some roaches in the main and while the army moves into the main you could simply snipe the ms with corrupters you could also simply bust the third and dont stack all your units in a circle to for the toss to get a cortex that catches 20+ units. You could also turtle up play macro game and yet aigan dont stack your units up (zerg from op's replay... putting all your bl's at one place and the infestor under them so you get everything vortexed like an idiot... what is this low master? but the easiest way would be to simply deny/snipe third (wich you cant possibly hold with this if done correctly) or drop. also you posted this before. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=271126 it's the exact same thing (but hey two threads get more attention right?) your shittalking during games hasn't improved either and yes i am fairly pissed since this thread is pure attention whoring(and maybe ment to piss people like me off?). the tactic is bad and solely relies on the zerg reacting wrong also this is coming from top 100 eu gm. so dont tell me i dont know wtf im talking about. i know it. | ||
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DeathToSquid
United States20 Posts
I don't really care about the personal stuff, but thanks for your input on this build! That's what i'm interested in. you could just drop some roaches in the main and while the army moves into the main you could simply snipe the ms with corrupters That sounds like a great plan! I'll get my practice partner to try this. Do you know what the approximate timing is on getting 6 or so corrupters, pneumatic carapace, and ventral sacs as well as a roach army is on 3 bases? Knowing the timing would help me plan and I would appreciate it :D Just based on the upgrades it would be a minimum of 3:10 mins after lair, but It seems like gas might be a problem given that you still have to crank out a ton of workers/roaches. Before moving out you would have to have gotten a spire, produced corrupters, and used them to kill the phoenix and deny scouting, cause the drop won't work if P still has map control. This would reveal your corrupter tech and make P careful with their momma. If you timed it right you might be able to have your roaches close by air to the main right as ventral sacs finishes. SC2 is updating right now so I can't look at the replays, but it sounds like this might hit around14-15 minutes, due to the gas cost, or else you would have a relatively small, un-upgraded roach army from going straight for a ton of gas early game. One advantage of this push is that P might mis-read it as mutalisk play (given all the gas and spire), and get some useless pheonix. On the downside, if P thinks its mutalisk play they may already have cannons / stalkers in positions that are vulnerable to air, which would incidentally mitigate some of the drop threat. If I am interpreting you right, the Z build / gas cost would be around: Lair - 100 Spire - 200 Corruptor x 6 - 600 (Note: this is about the minimum it will take to finish off a momma. Keep in mind that the vortex will probably be used to remove 2/3 corrupters from the battle for a while, and motherships have 700 hp. With 3/4 corrupters doing 22 damage per hit (base 20 + 20% from corruption -2 from armor) every 1.9 seconds, it will take an absolute minimum of 21/15 seconds to kill the mothership. If it takes any longer than that there is no way you won't be able to get under some anti air, and even in that time i would expect 1-2 of the corrupters to fall just to the mothership and VR, even if the rest of the army is busy) Glial Reconstitution - 100 Roach x 60/40/20 - 1,500 / 1000 /500 Pneumatic Carapace: - 100 Ventral sacs - 200 4 overseers - 200 Total: 3,000 / 2,500 / 2,000 The earliest timing I could possibly see this happening is 13 minutes, unless I am not getting something. If you could do this attack before 13 minutes, I think you would have P by the balls. By 13 minutes, In my last game I had 4 archons (2 were still morphing, but close enough), a few zealots, charge, +1, a mothership with 101 energy, an established, mining third with 3 cannons, and 8 warp gates. By 14 mins I had 6 archons, 12 warp gates and +2 13 secs from completion and a handful chargelots (this was after an attack, but I think I lost mostly chargelots, so without interruption this number would be higher). By 15 mins I had 8 archons, about 20 chargelots, +3 attack on the way, and about 16 warp gates. Please keep in mind that all of there timings are based on my level of play and that of opponents I see in game, if you are gosu you might be able to shave some off the timings for both Z and P. The only problem with this attack is that it seems like if it doesn't work, Zerg is in big, big trouble as they just wasted so much gas and tech that their upgrades and army composition are going to suck late game. All my opponents that have tried the other tactics you mentioned failed, probably because they aren't as experienced as you, so I'm not as worried about the other stuff you talked about. Thanks in advance for more advice on how this would work (and a replay? :D) | ||
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Yokoblue
Canada594 Posts
On July 31 2012 23:09 DeathToSquid wrote: Dear Tolazytobecreative I don't really care about the personal stuff, but thanks for your input on this build! That's what i'm interested in. That sounds like a great plan! I'll get my practice partner to try this. Do you know what the approximate timing is on getting 6 or so corrupters, pneumatic carapace, and ventral sacs as well as a roach army is on 3 bases? Knowing the timing would help me plan and I would appreciate it :D Just based on the upgrades it would be a minimum of 3:10 mins after lair, but It seems like gas might be a problem given that you still have to crank out a ton of workers/roaches. Before moving out you would have to have gotten a spire, produced corrupters, and used them to kill the phoenix and deny scouting, cause the drop won't work if P still has map control. This would reveal your corrupter tech and make P careful with their momma. If you timed it right you might be able to have your roaches close by air to the main right as ventral sacs finishes. SC2 is updating right now so I can't look at the replays, but it sounds like this might hit around14-15 minutes, due to the gas cost, or else you would have a relatively small, un-upgraded roach army from going straight for a ton of gas early game. One advantage of this push is that P might mis-read it as mutalisk play (given all the gas and spire), and get some useless pheonix. On the downside, if P thinks its mutalisk play they may already have cannons / stalkers in positions that are vulnerable to air, which would incidentally mitigate some of the drop threat. If I am interpreting you right, the Z build / gas cost would be around: Lair - 100 Spire - 200 Corruptor x 6 - 600 (Note: this is about the minimum it will take to finish off a momma. Keep in mind that the vortex will probably be used to remove 2/3 corrupters from the battle for a while, and motherships have 700 hp. With 3/4 corrupters doing 22 damage per hit (base 20 + 20% from corruption -2 from armor) every 1.9 seconds, it will take an absolute minimum of 21/15 seconds to kill the mothership. If it takes any longer than that there is no way you won't be able to get under some anti air, and even in that time i would expect 1-2 of the corrupters to fall just to the mothership and VR, even if the rest of the army is busy) Glial Reconstitution - 100 Roach x 60/40/20 - 1,500 / 1000 /500 Pneumatic Carapace: - 100 Ventral sacs - 200 4 overseers - 200 Total: 3,000 / 2,500 / 2,000 The earliest timing I could possibly see this happening is 13 minutes, unless I am not getting something. If you could do this attack before 13 minutes, I think you would have P by the balls. By 13 minutes, In my last game I had 4 archons (2 were still morphing, but close enough), a few zealots, charge, +1, a mothership with 101 energy, an established, mining third with 3 cannons, and 8 warp gates. By 14 mins I had 6 archons, 12 warp gates and +2 13 secs from completion and a handful chargelots (this was after an attack, but I think I lost mostly chargelots, so without interruption this number would be higher). By 15 mins I had 8 archons, about 20 chargelots, +3 attack on the way, and about 16 warp gates. Please keep in mind that all of there timings are based on my level of play and that of opponents I see in game, if you are gosu you might be able to shave some off the timings for both Z and P. The only problem with this attack is that it seems like if it doesn't work, Zerg is in big, big trouble as they just wasted so much gas and tech that their upgrades and army composition are going to suck late game. All my opponents that have tried the other tactics you mentioned failed, probably because they aren't as experienced as you, so I'm not as worried about the other stuff you talked about. Thanks in advance for more advice on how this would work (and a replay? :D) I like your post... And its true that the build seems easy to counter... buts its not... What I dont like though is if the zerg spot you doing that... and rush to broodlord... I mean almost pure brood or pure air... I would we be able to kill corruptor - brood with only archons... I used the build and I always find that there is only a small follow up (Voidrays) Any help on that matter ? | ||
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AceLight
New Zealand220 Posts
On August 01 2012 05:54 Yokoblue wrote: I like your post... And its true that the build seems easy to counter... buts its not... What I dont like though is if the zerg spot you doing that... and rush to broodlord... I mean almost pure brood or pure air... I would we be able to kill corruptor - brood with only archons... I used the build and I always find that there is only a small follow up (Voidrays) Any help on that matter ? Vortex pretty good. | ||
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Avicularia
540 Posts
On July 31 2012 07:12 Tolazytobecreative wrote: So to all the people who haven't tested it out and still wondering if they should because it seems so easy: don't. People don't realize that most of us, read this forum and we're not top players and just want to have some fun with game. I used to play in gold/plat and this build is just great for me. Before I couldn't win PvZ unless zerg was really lame, and now I have much more fun about the game and also my winrate is higher. There are many build on TL. For example planetary cheese as a terran. I wouldn't call it GM build, but I used it in silver, it worked and was really great. So what's the point of all these posts? If you don't like it- don't use it. | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
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DeathToSquid
United States20 Posts
What I dont like though is if the zerg spot you doing that... and rush to broodlord... I mean almost pure brood or pure air... I would we be able to kill corruptor - brood with only archons... In my experience this absolutely destroys pure brood lord. You can stutter step the archons underneath, and broodlings die in one hit. Since most of the damage from broodlords is from the broodlings staying alive, this really cuts into their damage, and you kill brood lords really fast. Also, they arn't fast enough to run away. The only problem is if there are infestors in the mix and you don't have a vortex, then they can fungal your army and you take damage without being able to hit back. | ||
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DeathToSquid
United States20 Posts
'm pretty sure you beat this easily by just splitting your army in half and attacking both the third and the natural at the same time. The mothership can't be in both places at once and there's no way to defend that without sentries. This is somewhat true, 2 pronged attacks are annoying and can do some damage, dependent on the map. On a map like cloud kingdom, you basically have to rely on a wall off and 1 sentry to hold of 1 prong while you deal with the other prong. You do take damage, but doing this basically gauruntees you will kill his entire force. I suck so I usually get lings in my probe line when they do this. As long as you can stay on 3 bases, though, things work out just fine. This isn't a problem on maps like Ohana and condemned ridge, where you can position your army to cover both with ease, these are probably the best maps for this build. The worst thing about this build for me is that it is messing with my ranking and making me play Terrans and Toss that are way better than me. I haven't lost a game to zerg since I became somewhat practiced with this build. | ||
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TankseL
United States4 Posts
6 gas gives you about 775 gas a minute so 300 gas for an HT archon you could get about 5 Archons in 2 minutes. With DT Archons you could get around 6 in 2 minutes. This means less zealots/cannons if you spend all the minerals but i would rather have more archons. Edit: made it easier to read. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
He had 5 corruptors, and they shot down the mothership super fast after they corrupted it. Then, they simple moved back the broodlords when the mothership tried to get close, and they threw down just a moderate amount of infested terrans, and FG, to keep the mothership at bay. 5 corruptors actually takes down a mothership so damn fast, and since it's AA only (corruptors), none of the units in the Toss army will bother to attack those 5 corruptors, since all the broodlings and infested terrans will be target fired first. Go up to like, 6-8 corruptors, and omg, vortex is so easily dealt with, and worst case scenario you lose 8 corruptors. | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
On August 10 2012 15:06 Belial88 wrote: You know I was frustrated with vortex for a really, really long time, but I was inspired recently by a game between CreatorPrime and some zerg on WCS, I think it was, on daybreak (could be some other toss, it was wcs korea on daybreak though and it got to the vortex endgame). He had 5 corruptors, and they shot down the mothership super fast after they corrupted it. Then, they simple moved back the broodlords when the mothership tried to get close, and they threw down just a moderate amount of infested terrans, and FG, to keep the mothership at bay. 5 corruptors actually takes down a mothership so damn fast, and since it's AA only (corruptors), none of the units in the Toss army will bother to attack those 5 corruptors, since all the broodlings and infested terrans will be target fired first. Go up to like, 6-8 corruptors, and omg, vortex is so easily dealt with, and worst case scenario you lose 8 corruptors. This is basically how I deal with vortex in almost all of my games with a very high success rate. Lay down a million infested terrans in front of me so that he has to fly over them to vortex me. Spread out corruptors and target the mothership, and it just takes damage very quickly, and he has to rush his vortex out before the mothership dies, and it's usually not a very good one. Then again, on ladder, players are consistently willing to fly their mothership above infested terrans and let it die instead of pushing slowly with colossus/storm. Granted, a slow push lets my broodlords and spines do their work. Usually they fly over the infested terrans and die or they back away and are forced to vortex corruptors before losing the mothership, because they don't focus fire the corruptors with their stalkers. However I never face a mothership max +3 push as fast as the one described in this thread. I don't know if I'd have enough energy banked, as well as enough support units or spines (or enough broodlords). Seems like it'd be pretty painful. | ||
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Talvish
United States1 Post
On July 14 2012 02:03 9-BiT wrote: Interesting....... I guess? The build looks fun, and yes, it will probably get a lot of cheap wins, but I don't think this is a legitimate build.... A build is never cheap or not legitimate. | ||
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kaokentake
383 Posts
On July 31 2012 06:51 DeathToSquid wrote: What makes something a "gimmick"? To me it is a strategy that only works due to a surprise factor. OP states this is not the case; despite knowing what is coming it works. For a long time, a FFE was considered a gimmick because people thought there was no way you could survive a range of openings with so few early units. Now it is the most popular opening in PvZ. To prove this is build a gimmick, figure out how to reliably counter it in a game. If, however, it can reliably be pulled off and adapted to deal with anything the Zerg can throw at it, what makes it a gimmick? To me that just makes a solid, original build. ffe was never really a gimmick people were doing ffe on steppes of war, while complaining that ffe was impossible on metal and XNC otherwise agree with you. just ffe was bad example | ||
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skyyan
United States74 Posts
On August 10 2012 18:05 kaokentake wrote: ffe was never really a gimmick people were doing ffe on steppes of war, while complaining that ffe was impossible on metal and XNC otherwise agree with you. just ffe was bad example I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that he meant that FFE was considered a gimmick in BW when it was first being popularized as a legitimate strategy by Bisu (also famous for his "gimmick" turned full strategy the dt-corsair). All in all, still good points from both of you. | ||
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