EPT[G] PvP HerO's Safe Stargate Opener - Page 5
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azuRe_
United States8 Posts
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DarkblueRH
United States144 Posts
On July 31 2012 11:19 azuRe_ wrote: There are definitely styles in which you want to get more than 3 phoenixes. Really it's better to use your own judgement from what you scout rather than to limit yourself to the frame of mind that you can never ever build more than 3. On occasion I go up to like 7 if, for example, somebody is doing some silly 1 base colossus stuff and I know I can do a ton of damage with more than 3, or if they're doing a 1 base allin I find more phoenixes to be sueful because their unit numbers will be smaller making lifts exponentially powerful. Interesting point you make here. Could you possibly provide replays of these situations please? I'd love to learn more about the situations where continuing phoenix production beyond an opener into a legitimate mid-game composition can be beneficial. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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althaz
Australia1001 Posts
IMO, the only really dangerous thing this build has to face is a quick 1-gate expand into a zealot-archon timing, everything else can be dealt with if you play the rest of the game well enough (not saying nothing else is hard, but nothing else scares the crap out of me). When spotting an expand, I would recommend expanding right after, unless your opponent is playing extremely greedily, then obviously you can just kill him, but I prefer expanding and being a little bit behind, econmically, but teching slightly faster. The thing with phoenixes is either your opponent can build excess stalkers (horrible units at fighting) or canons or let you scout every single move that he makes immediately. Unless your opponent has particularly good multi tasking, it's normally pretty simple to get a probe kill with almost every 50 energy you get. You will be totally safe vs warp prisms, blink-obs is relatively easy to deal with (even if you can't snipe his obs he'll have to blink right onto zealot-immortal, which is not good for him) and have the ability to get fantasic reads on your opponent. A 30 second later expansion can be overcome with superior scouting and decision making in any matchup, but especially PvP which is a fairly tricky matchup. | ||
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ThePianoDentist
United Kingdom698 Posts
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ZeromuS
Canada13379 Posts
On July 31 2012 10:01 DarkblueRH wrote: I love you <3 @ZeromuS - This actually seems to be the best way to expand vs a Phoenix player. Sets you ahead for the encroaching macro-game and gives you an absolute defense given that zealots are your only fear. Walling off is genius, going for the attack with 6gate blink at a nice timing is also genius. However, I don't believe going for the mass blink stalker push should be thought of as a "free win" as Alej had stated and a back-up plan should be thought of because if you don't outright win the game with the blink stalkers you'll lose the colossus war. Assuming worst case scenario, your opponent just masses immortals off two robotics facilities with sentries and zealots AND you were forced to blink forward on top of his immortals... You should just immediately lose the game to a counter attack or to a 3rd base because of the exponential decay in the strength of blink stalkers as numbers diminish and time goes on. I do the 6 gate blink as a response to holding the pheonix all in. I already will have 5 gates up and a robo. If they dont leave and decide to try and turtle I push with the 6 gates if he didnt do a robo variant, tech to collossus while pressuring if it was a robo variant with immortals to try and all in. | ||
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StarscreamG1
Portugal1652 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On August 01 2012 05:00 ThePianoDentist wrote: what do you suggest if your probe at 5 mins sees a building stargate? i tried double stargate but found i didnt have the gas, should i deviate my tech path at all, say throw down a twilight for blink? you can't do double stargate off of one base, but double stargate off of 2 base can work if they do expand. make sure the nexus finishes tho.. | ||
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ChoboDane
Denmark98 Posts
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Yokoblue
Canada594 Posts
On August 01 2012 06:35 ChoboDane wrote: There is no such thing as a safe build. All builds have weaknesses and can be exploited. Not when the only weakness is proxy and something really not standard like 2 gates masszealot or something..Then we can say it's "Safe". It's called Safe becasue its safe against everything we know, and everything logic if its not known you will be doing that build.. | ||
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skorched
United States81 Posts
On August 02 2012 00:31 Yokoblue wrote: Not when the only weakness is proxy and something really not standard like 2 gates masszealot or something..Then we can say it's "Safe". It's called Safe becasue its safe against everything we know, and everything logic if its not known you will be doing that build.. And 10 gate pressure builds can really give this trouble as stated earlier. I also wonder how this does vs a quick dt expand ( not the dts themselves) But the inevitable Zarchon followup. Just seems like it would do well against this opening, but then again you have phoenix so you should see it well b4 the push comes. | ||
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CTangent
United States125 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Game 1 of HerO vs Elfi was really interesting. Elfi basically did this build (with some small differences but the main idea was the same, stargate + fast robo). Elfi did ZERO damage with his 3 phoenix, so he decided to mass immortals and pheonix and transitioned into a brutal 1 base all in that absolutely crushed HerO's blink robo expansion response. He had enough phoenix to remove 6-7 stalkers from a fight at any time (and in fact caught 7 of HerO's stalkers on the map and lifted them so they couldn't escape). HerO warped in a bunch of sentries to hold but Elfi simply lifted and killed them. Elfi's all in looked absolutely brutal and I was wondering, what was the appropriate response for HerO? If he overmakes stalkers, he gets wrecked by the immortals. If he doesn't make enough stalkers, he gets wrecked by phoenix. Also interesting is how Elfi turned this safe opening into a brutal all in. Hopefully the VOD will be up soon because I, for sure, will be studying this game. | ||
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Shikada
Serbia976 Posts
Any advice here? | ||
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Kentisc
Belgium9 Posts
Only gold though, but I was able to get a 100% win rate thus far. | ||
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SidewinderSC2
United States236 Posts
The comment I'll add onto this thread is that I don't understand when it's best to expand instead of stay on 1 base and attack. It seems like Stargate all-ins are way too strong for expanding to actually be worthwhile. From what I can tell, the typical tree of responses is: DT Expand > 4gate + Phoenix all-in Gateway Expand or Blink Expand > 4gate + Phoenix all-in, or 3 Immortal + Phoenix all-in depending on timing of expo Blink Obs > ~3 Immortals, kill obs, push his army around, all-in with 1 rangeless Colossus Stargate > More and more Phoenix, 4gate Gateway (mostly Stalker) all-in when he expands Whenever I have expanded with this opener, it just puts me into a pretty lame circumstance where I'm either on equal footing or behind in economy. Whereas whenever I stay on 1 base and just attack and micro well, I crush them really hard. Mid-Masters NA by the way, roughly 1150 point MMR. | ||
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Coyote420
United States8 Posts
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Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
On July 07 2012 19:13 Makuly wrote: This build is great HOWEVER as in pvp the coin flip does take its toll. going 1gate stargate will most definitely die to a 4gate/3gate pressure, if you survive it's because the aggressor is bad. if he goes blind DTs you're screwed as well, going 1gate stargate THEN robo you wont have anything for detection until later on, it's just not possible. Other than that this build is good! But keep in mind, there is no safe pvp build order im sorry to say 1 gate into star then robo is actually just fine to hold a DT rush. DTs can't hit the field until like 7:30. More than enough time to get that detection. | ||
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See.Blue
United States2673 Posts
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Rad
United States935 Posts
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See.Blue
United States2673 Posts
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