EPTThx for the guide.
[G] PvP HerO's Safe Stargate Opener - Page 2
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
Belha
Italy2850 Posts
Thx for the guide. | ||
|
Xujhan
Canada65 Posts
On July 08 2012 03:48 DarkblueRH wrote: @Xujhan - 1 gate Stargate on maps without a secondary ramp at the natural or if your opponent just brings 2 probes to build pylons actually should just die to a well executed 4gate as your only real defense (if I'm thinking of the same build) is to deny pylons being built next to your ramp because you won't have enough FF to completely force them out of your base, you need to FF them in and kill units. The 1gate Stargate build I'm referring to is THIS. You say that 1gate Stargate can't hold a 4agte, and then link to a thread detailing how 1gate Stargate can hold a 4gate? I'm afraid I really don't understand what you're trying to argue. Even if you were right though, it's irrelevant; the opponent will scout double gas and no stalker before having to commit to the Stargate, so it's perfectly safe in any event. | ||
|
Strumpsven
6 Posts
Might give it a shot after this guide.. | ||
|
DarkblueRH
United States144 Posts
On July 08 2012 05:47 Xujhan wrote: You say that 1gate Stargate can't hold a 4agte, and then link to a thread detailing how 1gate Stargate can hold a 4gate? I'm afraid I really don't understand what you're trying to argue. Even if you were right though, it's irrelevant; the opponent will scout double gas and no stalker before having to commit to the Stargate, so it's perfectly safe in any event. You're right. Looking back, what I had said was very stupid. What I was trying to articulate was that it was indeed a bit of a dice roll for your opponent to get an advantage over you by getting an earlier Stargate. But, if they probe scout early they can get a fast Stargate on reaction to your 2nd gas. I was wrong, and I apologize, can you forgive me? I've edited the main post to reflect this. --- Day[9] in his daily brings up a great point that I had not included in the initial guide. If you probe scout up your opponents ramp at ~5:00 and see that he has no units there, you can definitively scout if your opponent is 4gating or not before your Stargate completes. In which case I believe you could just cancel it, build a 3rd gateway and a Robo and abandon going Stargate. This is entirely just a theory of mine but it seems logical, I'm going to try playing around with this idea a bit before updating the original post. | ||
|
StraightEdge
France2 Posts
| ||
|
-MoOsE-
United States236 Posts
| ||
|
xsnac
Barbados1365 Posts
3 archons triple shot , you make 3 archons and kill pretty much all pheonix then you can outrange stalkers and kill gateways with a hanful of stalkers or just let zealots kill it very fast . i was doing this build for last 3 months : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=318673 , and you can easly kill stargate openings with it even if he walls off , just focus archon power on pheonix and then kill wall => gg . p.s. that build goes for 3 stalker rush into very fast nexus . that means you have a huge economical advantage and even if you lose a lot of zealots trying to kill the wall you will still have bigger or equal army when the wall si down . archons + zealot > anything except colossi that are higher then 4 . 5-6 archons + zealot > 4 colossi + stalkers | ||
|
Braric
Canada184 Posts
| ||
|
Braric
Canada184 Posts
What I mean is the only way you can lose to this type of aggression is if a pylon is built on the top of the ramp or they have high ground vision to attack sentries, you have enough forcefields to buy enough time to have your gates to finish allowing you to permanently keep the ramp force fielded with warp ins if need be. The way I do it at least is open with Zealot Sentry Zealot Sentry and the 2 Zealots basically buy you enough time to ward off initial aggression and when an immediate threat occurs you can just simply begin your forcefield sequence. [/QUOTE] | ||
|
Braric
Canada184 Posts
On July 08 2012 07:58 xsnac wrote: even with wall in you cant survive a archon timing from a DT push , 4 archons doubleshot 999999 pheonix stacked up . 3 archons triple shot , you make 3 archons and kill pretty much all pheonix then you can outrange stalkers and kill gateways with a hanful of stalkers or just let zealots kill it very fast . i was doing this build for last 3 months : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=318673 , and you can easly kill stargate openings with it even if he walls off , just focus archon power on pheonix and then kill wall => gg . p.s. that build goes for 3 stalker rush into very fast nexus . that means you have a huge economical advantage and even if you lose a lot of zealots trying to kill the wall you will still have bigger or equal army when the wall si down . archons + zealot > anything except colossi that are higher then 4 . 5-6 archons + zealot > 4 colossi + stalkers You can easily hold off any sort of archon all ins with this build, you should be able to have a good amount of stalkers an Immortal or two out and combine that with a wall I just don't see them breaking up your ramp, as soon as the zealots target down the wall just forcefield it away forcing archons to come and break allowing you to pretty much focus fire them down individually. Also the way I prefer to do this build is simply not scout at all and use my early phoenix to scout his base, the extra minerals are seriously a huge part in helping you to defend pushes that you otherwise would struggle against. | ||
|
Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Cut a chrono of the nexus or delay it until after dropping the cybercore, there is no point using the third chrono earlier... If you just use 2 chrono on nexus the build gets smoother as you don't get a probe cut. The extra chrono you have can be put into faster warpgate or just a faster second phoenix, either being really useful. In fact I prefer the build opening with zealot - stalker(chrono'd) - sentry - sentry. You get the stargate slightly faster this way and you don't have the awkward sentry first opening. A stalker allowes some scouting around your base which is super useful against funky stuff like 10 or 11 gate pressure or just 4 gates in general. If you scout no signs of a 4 gate then you can cancel the second sentry and delay warpgate tech (chrono it less), if you do see signs you let the second sentry finish and put the extra chrono on the warpgate tech. It's just as safe but the stargate is faster and you don't give away information so much by going sentry first. | ||
|
DarkblueRH
United States144 Posts
If you open with Zealot -> Stalker -> Sentry -> Sentry you will likely not have that precious 3rd Force Field that you'd need to defend early gateway pressure. | ||
|
WalkofLife
United States18 Posts
| ||
|
xsnac
Barbados1365 Posts
On July 08 2012 08:26 Braric wrote: You can easily hold off any sort of archon all ins with this build, you should be able to have a good amount of stalkers an Immortal or two out and combine that with a wall I just don't see them breaking up your ramp, as soon as the zealots target down the wall just forcefield it away forcing archons to come and break allowing you to pretty much focus fire them down individually. Also the way I prefer to do this build is simply not scout at all and use my early phoenix to scout his base, the extra minerals are seriously a huge part in helping you to defend pushes that you otherwise would struggle against. sorry but i think ur misinforming ppl , forcefields dosent work vs archons , and even with 3 immortals you wont scratch like 20 zealots . i broke walls for last 3 months with that build . you simply cant hold an expo vs zealot - dt if you invest in stargate and robo . you will simply wont have enough units . 7 gate allin from 2 base with pure zealot archons vs stargate that transition in robo just fails . btw if you wanna argue i suggest you to try the build i was doing atlast once vs stargate play and try to transition into 7 gate allin from 2 base and push , ul see how easy it is . p.s. i was doing only that build on pvp on master level - eu . | ||
|
Xujhan
Canada65 Posts
On July 08 2012 06:32 DarkblueRH wrote: You're right. Looking back, what I had said was very stupid. What I was trying to articulate was that it was indeed a bit of a dice roll for your opponent to get an advantage over you by getting an earlier Stargate. But, if they probe scout early they can get a fast Stargate on reaction to your 2nd gas. I was wrong, and I apologize, can you forgive me? I've edited the main post to reflect this. Hey man, no harm no foul. =) It's a really good guide. I use that 1gate Stargate as my go-to build in PvP, so I just wanted to make the one little contribution I had to offer. | ||
|
Smoodish
United States95 Posts
| ||
|
eugalp
United States203 Posts
I've been using a more traditional 1 gate phoenix build (basically Axslav's build). What would be the main pros and cons of the two builds? I suppose you are somewhat safer with the early second sentry but forgo early game map presence? | ||
|
Fenneth
Australia354 Posts
| ||
|
Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On July 08 2012 10:40 DarkblueRH wrote: The 3rd Chrono Boost will be spent entirely on probes being built if you throw it before the Cybernetics Core. There will be a slight probe cut after that Chrono Boost's duration has been expired but that very slightly effects the worth of that 3rd Chrono Boost. Yes... Part of what makes Chrono so good is that not only does probe 16 and 17 build faster, but probe 18 is allowed to begin building faster. Because of the probe cut this added benefit of probe 18 starting faster is removed from the benefit of the 3rd Chrono Boost with a probe cut afterwards. But probes 16 and 17 still built faster than they would have otherwise, allowing you to mine a few more minerals because of that. So in short... Yea you're right, it'd be better for your overall economy to wait until the cyber has been dropped to spend that 3rd Chrono Boost, but that's nowhere near a game altering decision. It's basically answering the question of, "Do I want slightly more minerals now, or an additional slightly more minerals later." I for one will always choose the "now" option. If you open with Zealot -> Stalker -> Sentry -> Sentry you will likely not have that precious 3rd Force Field that you'd need to defend early gateway pressure. Having probes 16 and 17 faster is worth practically nothing, each 10 secs earlier (not even the case) is 6 minerals each, ie 12 minerals total. Chrono is only worth it if you have constant production, ie every probe afterwards is also quicker in which case a third chrono sums to about 50-60 minerals for 1 base builds. So if you're going to chrono just before a cut it's just a complete waste and you are better off spending that chrono on the gateway or warpgate timing. If you just throw 2 extra chrono's on gate+warpgate you can go stalker first which I think is to be prefferred over sentry first a lot because you get some map awareness, you don't give away what you are doing and you can actually chase and kill probes near your base.. | ||
|
ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Isn't this the build that MC used in that epic HSC game against HasuObs where he used Phoenix to keep Hasu's units in his main and then chain FF'd the ramp and killed his natural Nexus with 2 Zealots and 2 Sentries? Seems like a solid build, and you might be able to pull that baller move off against 1Gate expand on the ladder a few times. | ||
| ||
