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United States4883 Posts
On October 06 2012 08:39 See.Blue wrote:
If I'm playing against a robo player, and I expand then he expands, can I usually just go kill him? I should have close immortal counts but can lift all of his... I'm just a little unsure of my decisionmaking out of this.
In many cases, you can forgo the nexus for extra gateways and just do a push with 2 immortals, 3-4 phoenix, and 4 gateways. This is an incredibly difficult rush to stop, especially for someone who opens robo, as immortals are actually useless against the phoenixes. The best way to deal with this as the defender is to just insta-tech switch to blink stalkers and just get a TON of blinker stalkers/zealots.
If you want to go ahead and do the expansion, keep making phoenixes and harassing the worker line until your opponent puts a twilight council up. In the meanwhile, you can push your map control advantage by chronoboosting workers and starting on either colossus production or zealot/archon sooner than your opponent. In the case of colossus production, just make a push at 3 colossus for a fairly easy win.
All in all, stargate opening is kind of considered a "build order win" against robo, which is why many players will INSTANTLY go into blink stalkers or zealot/archon.
Hope this helps!
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On October 06 2012 08:49 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 08:39 See.Blue wrote:
If I'm playing against a robo player, and I expand then he expands, can I usually just go kill him? I should have close immortal counts but can lift all of his... I'm just a little unsure of my decisionmaking out of this. In many cases, you can forgo the nexus for extra gateways and just do a push with 2 immortals, 3-4 phoenix, and 4 gateways. This is an incredibly difficult rush to stop, especially for someone who opens robo, as immortals are actually useless against the phoenixes. The best way to deal with this as the defender is to just insta-tech switch to blink stalkers and just get a TON of blinker stalkers/zealots. If you want to go ahead and do the expansion, keep making phoenixes and harassing the worker line until your opponent puts a twilight council up. In the meanwhile, you can push your map control advantage by chronoboosting workers and starting on either colossus production or zealot/archon sooner than your opponent. In the case of colossus production, just make a push at 3 colossus for a fairly easy win. All in all, stargate opening is kind of considered a "build order win" against robo, which is why many players will INSTANTLY go into blink stalkers or zealot/archon. Hope this helps!
Ah that makes a lot of sense. Thanks a lot!
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Are you supposed to proxy the stargate? It seems like building it so early leaves it to be scouted.
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No, there is no need to proxy it. It can't be scouted, by the time you need to place the stargate you will have a zealot and a sentry with another zealot nearly done. No way for a probe to get past that, just place your units near the top of your ramp. If he scouts early with an observer, he went robo. Rejoice!
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On July 31 2012 12:12 Alejandrisha wrote:
vs 1 base colossus all-in ( 1 colossus no range backed with 4 gateways ), the best move from that position is actually make void rays and 1 immortal to go with your ffs. they have to only make stalkers to deal with your void to ensure the colo can do enough damage before the void ray(s) focus them down
Any other thoughts on this? I've never found this to be the case. While its true that all their forward warp in will be stalkers, there will be very few in the original move out as the collosus+few sentries eat up tons of gas. With VRs you get to choose exactly one fight because if you don't kill him a 4 stalker warp in ends the game. If you're active like you should be with your phoenixes you can harass the collossus Alllllll the way from his robo to your base. There is no way you he has the stalker count to prevent it.
I never ever lose to 1 base collosus if I open Phoenix. The left over energy can then be used to scoop up zealots and or stalkers. Just make sure to not burn it on probes if he's on 1 base.
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IMO the best way to defend all-ins is to park your pheonixes near his choke as often as possible ( when you're not harassing his mineral line ) and scout when he's sending out a probe to build his proxy pylon. Kill the probe and delay his push. This will force him to bring a probe or two along with his entire army, but against a robo build, it may be more effective to kill these probes than sacrifice phoenixes to stalkers shots just to kill a colossus.
Basically, lift the proxy probe to delay the push as much as possible.
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On October 11 2012 03:08 Nyast wrote:
IMO the best way to defend all-ins is to park your pheonixes near his choke as often as possible ( when you're not harassing his mineral line ) and scout when he's sending out a probe to build his proxy pylon. Kill the probe and delay his push. This will force him to bring a probe or two along with his entire army, but against a robo build, it may be more effective to kill these probes than sacrifice phoenixes to stalkers shots just to kill a colossus.
Basically, lift the proxy probe to delay the push as much as possible.
This... I cannot stress more how amazing doing this is.
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On October 11 2012 00:53 Shikada wrote:
No, there is no need to proxy it. It can't be scouted, by the time you need to place the stargate you will have a zealot and a sentry with another zealot nearly done. No way for a probe to get past that, just place your units near the top of your ramp. If he scouts early with an observer, he went robo. Rejoice!
I guess the game I played that made me think of this is one where he pylon scouted and was in my base before my units were out. The sentry was huffing and puffing after the little guy but I had to delay my stargate.
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On October 11 2012 03:44 Carmine wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 00:53 Shikada wrote:
No, there is no need to proxy it. It can't be scouted, by the time you need to place the stargate you will have a zealot and a sentry with another zealot nearly done. No way for a probe to get past that, just place your units near the top of your ramp. If he scouts early with an observer, he went robo. Rejoice! I guess the game I played that made me think of this is one where he pylon scouted and was in my base before my units were out. The sentry was huffing and puffing after the little guy but I had to delay my stargate.
If this is a safe build as the OP claims, there is no reason to delay it. Just put it down while he/she's in the base with his probe.
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I'm not sure how often this build is used, but I've been doing nothing but the FXOz 3gate pressure in PvP with 3 proxy pylons and it completely busts this build. The scouting probe I send at 14 can get in and really never die, usually leaving the sentries out of position, and any probe pulls make the stargate useless. Any guide for users of this build against the aggressive 3 gate would be fitting.
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On October 11 2012 02:17 Dubsy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 12:12 Alejandrisha wrote:
vs 1 base colossus all-in ( 1 colossus no range backed with 4 gateways ), the best move from that position is actually make void rays and 1 immortal to go with your ffs. they have to only make stalkers to deal with your void to ensure the colo can do enough damage before the void ray(s) focus them down Any other thoughts on this? I've never found this to be the case. While its true that all their forward warp in will be stalkers, there will be very few in the original move out as the collosus+few sentries eat up tons of gas. With VRs you get to choose exactly one fight because if you don't kill him a 4 stalker warp in ends the game. If you're active like you should be with your phoenixes you can harass the collossus Alllllll the way from his robo to your base. There is no way you he has the stalker count to prevent it. I never ever lose to 1 base collosus if I open Phoenix. The left over energy can then be used to scoop up zealots and or stalkers. Just make sure to not burn it on probes if he's on 1 base. I'm not really an expert on phoenix vs collosus because most players simply cancel collosus once they scout phoenix... But if he for some reason did not do that (either because he just didn't or because you hide your phoenix) then I don't think robo is a very good response. Immortals aren't very useful vs the massive amount of zealots that comes along with this push. And while voidrays might be quite strong vs collosus they still take more dmg vs stalkers and are also far slower. I really think you can get along well with getting only phoenix.
I don't really agree with saving lifts tho.. The push is quite late and your prio is basically to snipe the few sentries + kill his collosus so you don't really need THAT many lifts in the end.
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On October 11 2012 02:17 Dubsy wrote:
Hide nested quote -
On July 31 2012 12:12 Alejandrisha wrote:
vs 1 base colossus all-in ( 1 colossus no range backed with 4 gateways ), the best move from that position is actually make void rays and 1 immortal to go with your ffs. they have to only make stalkers to deal with your void to ensure the colo can do enough damage before the void ray(s) focus them down
Any other thoughts on this? I've never found this to be the case. While its true that all their forward warp in will be stalkers, there will be very few in the original move out as the collosus+few sentries eat up tons of gas. With VRs you get to choose exactly one fight because if you don't kill him a 4 stalker warp in ends the game. If you're active like you should be with your phoenixes you can harass the collossus Alllllll the way from his robo to your base. There is no way you he has the stalker count to prevent it.
I never ever lose to 1 base collosus if I open Phoenix. The left over energy can then be used to scoop up zealots and or stalkers. Just make sure to not burn it on probes if he's on 1 base.
I'm not really an expert on phoenix vs collosus because most players simply cancel collosus once they scout phoenix... But if he for some reason did not do that (either because he just didn't or because you hide your phoenix) then I don't think robo is a very good response. Immortals aren't very useful vs the massive amount of zealots that comes along with this push. And while voidrays might be quite strong vs collosus they still take more dmg vs stalkers and are also far slower. I really think you can get along well with getting only phoenix.
I don't really agree with saving lifts tho.. The push is quite late and your prio is basically to snipe the few sentries + kill his collosus so you don't really need THAT many lifts in the end.
From personnal experience 1 base colossus is very week against 1 base phx,robo and 2 gates, it'S just a worst army composition then what you have, wich is phx,imo,stalker(few of them) and zlots army. Why ?? Because with your phx, if you are active enough with them, you should alway poke around is base, if the guys was greedy and didn't get enough stalker you can right off the bat snipe the first colossus that comes out wich is gg already  But in the best case scenario for them it forces stalkers out wich are very week against your zlot imo comp, usually the colossus player will try to warp in a few zlot right before attaking(moving up your ramp) and from there, you lift is zlot with your phx(one by one, you should hav about 5 or 6 phx by then) Is zlot will melt, wich leaves him with stalker colossu, if he didn't get range you probably will be able to snipe is colossu with your imo, and even ig yo u can't the simple dps of your army is stronger if all is zlot disapear quick enough.
The only way i have lost that fight in the past was at a choke, were the colossus were just doing so much dmg, and 2 FF could trap my army, so basicly just go meet him half way, and try to spread your zlots a little so they dont take extra dmg from those colossus, and it should be a super easy win for you 
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EPT
