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So, before I begin. Day[9] recently released a daily on this build but I figured that I'd create a text version as Day[9] doesn't exactly transcribe the build and it's much easier to comprehend in text form rather than trying to copy the video. At least in my opinion. Also, this is my first strategy post so be easy.
Overview: The overall idea of this build and why I find it to be so intriguing is that if it is performed well, your biggest fear only lies within the mirror. I.e. when your opponent also opens Stargate. In this case the person who was the most greedy with their Stargate timing usually obtains the offensive stance while the player with the later Stargate is placed into the defensive stance. All other early possibilities seem to be well accounted for with this build and I shall go into further detail about that below. This build seems to create a PvP that is, as coined by Day[9], "Not Bullshit!"
The Build Order: + Show Spoiler +9 Pylon 3x Chrono Boost on Probes when Pylon completes 13 Gateway After planting your Gateway is your queue to scout for proxies if it's a 2-player map. Don't bother scouting at all if it's a 4-player map. If you're not comfortable with that, you can still go scout your opponent now, just be out of his base by ~4:20. 15 2x Assimilator (Yes, TWO Assimilators) 17 Pylon Both Assimilators should be finishing around this time. Put only two probes in each. You're going to have a small probe cut here to get the cyber up on time. 17 Cybernetics Core 18 Zealot When you start this Zealot, that is your queue to fill both Assimilators up to 3 probes each. 22 Start Warpgate Tech(2x Chrono Boost) 22 Sentry** 25 Pylon 27 Zealot 29 Stargate 30 Gateway 31 Sentry 32 Pylon 34 Phoenix (Chrono Boost) 36 Robotics Facility If you've got your gas timings correct. You should be able to immediately begin the second Phoenix after dropping the Robotics Facility.
**When your first sentry completes, this is your queue to send a probe out to be at your opponent's base at 5:00. Around when this sentry completes, your opponent should be just leaving his base with his first stalker so evade the direct attack path. (If they went for a 12gate and chrono boosted their stalker, they could only at best be half-way across the map at this point)
Move out when your second Phoenix completes. You should be able to scout their entire base, as well as kill 2 probes.
Chrono Boost out a total of 3 Phoenix. Your Robotics Facility should finish around the same time that your 3rd Phoenix completes. Build an Immortal and continue on with the game as if it's a standard 2gate Robo. All you needed from your Stargate was those 3 phoenix. Don't build any more than these 3 phoenix, you can do all that you'll ever need to with just 3. You can kill probes in 1 volley and sentries in 2.
Defending in the Early-Game: + Show Spoiler +The beauty of opening with a Zealot -> Sentry -> Zealot -> Sentry is that when you're on defense, you've got a GREAT position to trap units and block units from going up your ramp. The key to defending in the early-game is to use these units as a wall. A barrier of sorts that will disallow any units from going up your ramp. You can snag 3 Stalker rushes oh so beautifully with this build for some satisfying free kills.If you desire to use Force Field to trap a unit(s) in, you MUST have your sentries and zealots positioned so that the now trapped unit cannot escape up onto the high-ground. No reason to give that stalker you're trying to kill a free pass to just run past your units and scout all inside your base or snag a few probe kills. Your biggest fear will be if your opponent ever warps in on your high-ground. Using this build, if a 4gating player ever gets a warp-in round on your high-ground, unless you're MC... Consider the game already lost.
How to React...: + Show Spoiler +How to React to 4gate/3gate All-ins/Pressure:+ Show Spoiler +The best possible manner which I have found to deal with this sort of extremely early gateway pressure is to definitively scout it coming before it ever happens. This can be done in a way which Day9 points out in his daily... If your opponent is going to 4gate/3gate you, he's going to have his units out on the map at 5:00 as he must plant his pylon on your side of the map by 5:20 in order to have it up when Warpgate completes at 5:45. If you go up his ramp at 5:00 you'll get there at a time where his first zealot/stalker are on your side of the map defending his probe and his 2nd stalker won't complete until like ~5:05 so you should have free reign over his entire base if he's being aggressive. In short... If he's being aggressive with warpgates really early in the game, he will have no units at his base at 5:00. If he DOES have units at the top of his ramp, he's NOT 4gating. (They can have a stalker out at 5:00 back at home if they're 3gating you but it'll only be 1 stalker) If he is 4gating you, you'll know before the Stargate completes... Cancel it, drop 3rd and/or 4th gate (You can likely just match your opponent's #). Get ready to FF anything that's gonna try to come up your ramp. Chrono UNITS from your 2 standing gateways and DON'T GET SUPPLY BLOCKED! It's harder than it sounds to not get supply blocked here, pay attention! You want to force his first warp-in on the low-ground. By the time the 2nd warp-in comes you should still have a 3rd FF or a 3rd sentry out for your 4th FF. *Only do this if you're a bonafide pro gamer* + Show Spoiler +If you know that he JUST! warped in units, you have 32 seconds (~20 seconds if chrono boost is used) that you can use to allow 1-2 units from your opponent up your ramp, then kill them before warp-gates are back up so that he won't have vision when his warp gates are back up. Alternative if you didn't manage to scout his base at 5:00+ Show Spoiler +The 4gate will come while you're in the midst of building your 1st phoenix and around when you're wanting to drop your Robotics Facility. At this time you have 2 zealots, 2 sentries, 2 gateways and your Warp Gate about 20 seconds from completion. Force Field lasts 15 in-game seconds. You have 3 of them... If he's building a pylon on the low-ground, you must stop him from gaining vision of your high-ground at all costs. You should have plenty of time with your 3 Force Fields to still build the Robotics Facility, complete your first phoenix, drop a 3rd gateway and warp in as many sentries as you can afford. Do NOT build the 2nd phoenix, you need the gas for a 3rd sentry. Use your first phoenix to scout his base to be sure he's not just faking you out with a 1gate expand. Keep the ramp Force Fielded... Build units. When you've stabilized, get colossus because he's likely camping the bottom of your ramp with a sentry. Once you're out, expand and continue as normal. How to React to a FAKE 4gate/3gate All-ins/Pressure that happens to be a 1gate Expand:+ Show Spoiler +To be honest, this much is a bit un-explored for me as it doesn't happen all too much. The problem with opening with 2 Zealots and 2 Sentries is that it's very difficult to be on the offensive with them; so if your opponent knows your style they could very well just Nexus first. You should be able to scout and see that what you're facing is an expansion and not a 4gate with your Phoenix or with that probe at 5:00 early enough to react accordingly though.
This reaction could be either expanding yourself if you saw their expansion early enough. Or you could gear up for an immortal/zealot/sentry/phoenix bust. This bust is very powerful because a fast expanding player will be relying on sentries for defense. But you've got Phoenix which do quite well vs sentries.
You'd essentially boil down the fight to your sentry/zealot/immortal army vs his stalker/zealot army. And with your own Force Fields that he cannot break nor prevent from occurring; your army becomes vastly more powerful than his. How to React vs 1base Blink:+ Show Spoiler +You should be able to easily identify if your opponent is going to be heavily aggressive vs you with blink stalkers due to the fact that you've got phoenix in his base! Build a 3rd gateway, Build the 3rd Phoenix, Chrono Boost out as many Immortals as you possibly can and react to your opponent's movements. Your primary target is catching their observer with your phoenix. If they poise to set up a contain at the bottom of your ramp. Stay calm, get colossus. And then expand as soon as you're able to. Even if you can't scout it, he must have an expansion or he's already lost the game. How to React vs Stargate:+ Show Spoiler +Again, I feel this is very un-explored within the match-up. With this build, you're getting a decently early Stargate. However, if your opponent probe scouts and reacts to your double gas with a quick Stargate, he can have phoenix out earlier than you will because he just won't build units because he saw that you went zealot -> sentry and cannot be on the offensive. Phoenix battles snowball pretty quickly in favor of the player with even just 1 extra Phoenix.
My preferred response is to play defense and expand. Feel out what your opponent's response is to that and react accordingly. Keep in mind that he has Phoenix of his own so he'll know what you're doing. If you know he's definitely going to all-in you in response to your expansion, building a few cannons is a good idea if you feel you've got the time. They can't be lifted.
If you're the one with the earlier Stargate, be sure you get the first phoenix kill. If you're up on phoenix, you can be aggressive and deter your opponent from making any more Phoenix. Scout what he's doing, and react from here. I still advise to not build more than 3 Phoenix and use them to pick up free damage and keep tabs on his army. The great strength in Phoenix is their scouting, their ability to snag free damage, and their ability to fly over Force Fields. Having more of them doesn't make any of the previously mentioned strengths any stronger in my opinion. How to React vs Early Robo Builds:+ Show Spoiler +This is likely your most desired match-up. Because you've opened phoenix, you've eliminated the possibility of Warp Prisms being scary. So if he opens Robo he's in a bit of a rough spot because you should be able to expand quite safely. If he tries to 1base Colossus you, use your phoenix to soften the colossus during it's trip to your base. If he doesn't have range yet, use Force Field to force the colossus into range of your immortals. And then use your immortals and stalkers to focus fire the colossus.
If he expands. Just expand yourself, harass with your phoenix and move along normally. How to React vs DT's:+ Show Spoiler +What's scary about the DT opener is not the lack of detection. You've got a well timed Robotics Facility, a bunch of sentries, and a phoenix showing you well in advance that DT's are on the way and if they canceled the tech. What's scary is the threat of an Archon bust up your ramp since you're spread so thin on units. Without the power of Force Field, and given that you only have 2 gates and Immortals aren't all that great vs Zealots... You could be in some REAL trouble just based upon the fact that you could be easily overwhelmed. Luckily we have a solution. A rather simple one. Zealots aren't ranged, Archons have very short range... What does this mean? If we just wall off our ramp, we auto-win. EZPZ Treat it like it's PvZ and you're defending a baneling bust. Strong Gateway/Cyber wall offs just like old-school PvZ 1 base sentry openers. If your opponent ops to expand as opposed to attempting to bust your ramp with the DT's, they must do so with an zealot/archon defense. You will NOT be able to punish this expansion as zealot/archon is amazing on defense because of the open space you must traverse and their ability to pre-position for a surround. Your best option is to expand yourself, while building the mentioned gateway wall off at your natural as opposed to the top of your main's ramp. Turtle up, continue to wall off all of your additional bases with anything stronger than a pylon and play defense until 200/200 with colossus. Again... Imagine you're playing PvZ and your opponent has Super Zerglings! If he gets a run-by you lose. If he gets a surround you lose. If he engages you when you're behind a tight wall of strong buildings, you get a free win without losing any units.
Pro/Con Ladder Maps and Why: + Show Spoiler +Good maps to perform this build on are going to be maps which: 1) Allow a lot of safe movement for your phoenix around the map. (Lots of cliffs/walls to fly over to run from stalkers or lots of dead air only space.) 2) Restrict the viability of blink stalker harass. (Because you want to follow-up with Robo tech. Robo tech can have a rough time with blink stalker harass. See Naniwa vs Genius on Cloud Kingdom during GSL Ro16) 3) Minimize the area for which a 4gater's pylon can exist below your ramp. (You ideally want to be in range to FF your ramp AND be attacking pylons on the low ground.) 4) Allows for a 3 building Sim City above a ramp with which to defend your natural expansion from charge/archon builds. (I.e. a PvZ style FFE wall with 3 gateways as opposed to gate/cyber/forge at the edge of a ramp) Pro:+ Show Spoiler +Daybreak LE 1, 2, 3 Ohana LE 1, 2, 3, 4 Condemned Ridge 1, 2, 3 Shakuras Plateau 1, 3, 4
*The #'s next to the maps correspond to the above mentioned features which have deemed this map good for this build. I.e. "1" means that this map allows safe movement for your phoenix.
Con:+ Show Spoiler +Cloud Kingdom LE 2, 3 Antiga Shipyard 2, 4 Tal'Darim Altar LE ... Because it's Tal'Darim
*The #'s next to the maps correspond to the opposite effect of the above mentioned pro features. I.e. "1" means that this map does NOT allow safe movement for your phoenix.
Resources: + Show Spoiler +
Weak Points in the build the posts below will be trying to solve with additional Replays/Theory: + Show Spoiler +Need a replay vs 4gate Need a replay vs aggressive 2gate pressure ( This.)
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I don't know PvP, but this is an amazing guide in terms of formatting quality and post clarity. Awesome. may need some more reps though (have a rep for each build order and how to react to it would be cool)
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United States8476 Posts
This is a really great build. One piece of constructive criticism I have is that the opening is a bit more unsafe than you're letting on in your guide, especially if you're doing it blindly. If you scout your opponent mining double gas, you shouldn't have problems with pressure, but gateway aggression can be a huge problem. Specifically any gateway aggression that does one or more of the following:
- Opens with 10 or 11 gate
- Chronoboosts one of his first 2 stalkers
- Brings 2 probes to proxy plyons
You will have an incredibly hard time fighting the first zealot + 2 stalker poke, and most likely will have to burn your first force field, thus causing you to lose the game, because you can no longer chain force fields.
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This build is great HOWEVER as in pvp the coin flip does take its toll. going 1gate stargate will most definitely die to a 4gate/3gate pressure, if you survive it's because the aggressor is bad. if he goes blind DTs you're screwed as well, going 1gate stargate THEN robo you wont have anything for detection until later on, it's just not possible.
Other than that this build is good! But keep in mind, there is no safe pvp build order im sorry to say
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On July 07 2012 19:13 Makuly wrote: This build is great HOWEVER as in pvp the coin flip does take its toll. going 1gate stargate will most definitely die to a 4gate/3gate pressure, if you survive it's because the aggressor is bad. if he goes blind DTs you're screwed as well, going 1gate stargate THEN robo you wont have anything for detection until later on, it's just not possible.
Other than that this build is good! But keep in mind, there is no safe pvp build order im sorry to say
Have you even read the OP ? He specifically adresses all of your points.
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Great build, been using this on ladder to excellent effect. I've been looking for something with a more non-standard midgame feel to it like this, for a long time. This really hits the pvp spot I've been needing to scratch forever. If you need replays of ~450 point (low) masters on NA doing this, I'd be more than happy to submit any that I have.
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I'm using almost only stargate builds in pvp and it's my best match up. Actually, my biggest problem have been proxy warp prism 4-gates. If you move out with your second phenix, they will be in your base about the time when you are at his base with your phoenix. Stargate builds in general and this build specificallly relies so heavily on force fields in order to combat early agression. warp prims are just really evil in that the don't give a shit about them.
The only times I don't die to stuff like that is when I scout the robo proxy(and even then it's kinda hard), which shouldn't really happend unless: 1.) He is stupid and proxies it in a bad place. 2.) You scout around your base, in which case you will maybe show your 1 phoenix and will be in a worse situation vs all other builds compared to if you wouldn't have scouted with your 2 phoenix.
Low/mid masters btw
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On July 07 2012 19:13 Makuly wrote: This build is great HOWEVER as in pvp the coin flip does take its toll. going 1gate stargate will most definitely die to a 4gate/3gate pressure, if you survive it's because the aggressor is bad. if he goes blind DTs you're screwed as well, going 1gate stargate THEN robo you wont have anything for detection until later on, it's just not possible.
Other than that this build is good! But keep in mind, there is no safe pvp build order im sorry to say
you are completely wrong, the only thing that counters this build is a 1 gate fe
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Cool guide! Check out Hero's TL replay pack. There is a game where he plays against Inori (I think) where they both open stargate. Hero's immediate response is to cancel his robo, drop a 2nd stargate and expand. It turns into a very interesting macro game.
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Very nice. I've been using a similar build, but i couldn't think of a way to hold the dt/archon ramp busts. Thanks for sharing!
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I've tried this a few times on the ladder, and with my experience... it doesn't work with the current 2gate robo 6:00-6:30 expand meta
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How does this build(or other phoenix openings) hold against 4 gate blink with hallucination? I only faced it once, but got pretty crushed. Is there a way to stop it with this, or is it hardcounter?
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I'm going to give credit where credit is due, this is actually MVPTails build, he' was using it on his stream like literally 5-6 months ago way before Hero.
I've been using this build like literally every game, and I've found a really powerful follow up upon entering a macro game is doing a timing attack with 3 Immortals, 3 Voidrays and 3 Colossus off of 7 Gates warping in only zealots until the actual attack in which you commit to pure stalkers, (I've literally never lost with this composition unless I've messed up severely) The phoenix can later be used to lift up any immortals in his composition and it's unbelievably disgusting how fast your army will roll over his.
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Just a minor comment about your vs Stargate section:
1gate Stargate isn't a risky build; it still gets enough FFs to hold a 4gate. Moreover, if your opponent scouts you opening double gas and zealot-sentry, there's no risk at all. Also, in a phoenix mirror, I really don't think you want to be cutting phoenixes. Even just three phoenixes represent 450 gas - enough for nine stalkers - and if you let your opponent get a higher phoenix count, they're almost entirely useless.
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On July 08 2012 01:46 Xujhan wrote: Just a minor comment about your vs Stargate section:
1gate Stargate isn't a risky build; it still gets enough FFs to hold a 4gate. Moreover, if your opponent scouts you opening double gas and zealot-sentry, there's no risk at all. Also, in a phoenix mirror, I really don't think you want to be cutting phoenixes. Even just three phoenixes represent 450 gas - enough for nine stalkers - and if you let your opponent get a higher phoenix count, they're almost entirely useless.
I actually personally feel like the only hard counter to this opening is really greedy phoenix openings, I'm not to sure how to overcome it yet but I've been toying around with taking a quick expansion while spamming phoenix and using hallucination to scout and later for a timing attack in which you mass hallucinated phoenix with your real phoenix to try and win the air battle.
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On July 07 2012 19:13 Makuly wrote: This build is great HOWEVER as in pvp the coin flip does take its toll. going 1gate stargate will most definitely die to a 4gate/3gate pressure, if you survive it's because the aggressor is bad. if he goes blind DTs you're screwed as well, going 1gate stargate THEN robo you wont have anything for detection until later on, it's just not possible.
Other than that this build is good! But keep in mind, there is no safe pvp build order im sorry to say
You don't know what you're talking about. This is a great build and you can survive a 4 gate with it quite easily. Because of the early sentry by the time your opponents warpgate is done, you will have 2 forcefields, and once your 2nd forcefield vanishes, you should have a 3rd. It's also really easy to stop DTs since not only are you scouting with the pheonix's, but you're getting an early robo too. And if you position your units well on your ramp, you should be able to forcefield the dts back to give yourself some time if you need it.
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This isn't really "HerO's" build. I've seen many koreans do this blindly every game of PvP for many months. You also have poor information in the vs DT section, as most players nowadays do a form of a DT expand, not a DT allin as you seem to have assumed.
There's also a few variations of early WG builds than can give the zealot/sentry/zealot/sentry a hard time, for instance a 2 zeal 2 stalker 2 gate, or other similar openings.
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On July 08 2012 02:16 CecilSunkure wrote: This isn't really "HerO's" build. I've seen many koreans do this blindly every game of PvP for many months. You also have poor information in the vs DT section, as most players nowadays do a form of a DT expand, not a DT allin as you seem to have assumed.
There's also a few variations of early WG builds than can give the zealot/sentry/zealot/sentry a hard time, for instance a 2 zeal 2 stalker 2 gate, or other similar openings.
Can just pull a few probes to deal with this, building a pylon at the top of ramp to partially wall also helps pretty greatly at denying any probes from getting up your ramp.
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On July 07 2012 18:44 Belial88 wrote: I don't know PvP, but this is an amazing guide in terms of formatting quality and post clarity. Awesome. may need some more reps though (have a rep for each build order and how to react to it would be cool)
Thank you ^^. I was actually writing this at 5am last night so I was worried that I'd possibly have come off sounding quite stupidly. Glad that is not the case. I need to update the post to create a more polished product through reading all of these responses and acquiring more replays.
@ThaReckoning - Yes, I would love some of your replays and any replays of anyone who can solve the problems which have been addressed in all of the response posts. Vs Aggressive 4gate and vs Agressive 2gate play is my prime priority at the moment. (Agressive 2gate meaning they're chrono-ing out 2 zealots and like 3-5 stalkers and trying to bust your ramp like THIS.)
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To combat the criticisms, I am not assuming that HerO is the originator of this build. I merely titled the build in the manner proposed because 1) more people will read this post specifically because a pro player's name is in the title. And 2) HerO was the first player I had personally seen use the SPECIFIC build order of snagging the 2gas before cyber while opening with Stargate. Not only that, Day[9] has a daily showing HerO's variation and the only replay I had available at the time of creating the post was of HerO. My apologies for not taking the time to research who could have possibly been the originator of the build but I had figured it was quite irrelevant. Which indeed it is quite irrelevant.
@Xujhan - 1 gate Stargate on maps without a secondary ramp at the natural or if your opponent just brings 2 probes to build pylons actually should just die to a well executed 4gate as your only real defense (if I'm thinking of the same build) is to deny pylons being built next to your ramp because you won't have enough FF to completely force them out of your base, you need to FF them in and kill units. The 1gate Stargate build I'm referring to is THIS.
@CecilSunkure - If they're expanding with DT's you should most definitely be able to scout that fact, and then expand yourself while creating the mentioned wall at your natural as opposed to on top of your main's ramp. - I've updated the original post with this.
@Braric & Ranged - Please help me provide replays. I believe the two of you are absolutely correct with your counter-arguments to criticisms. But I'd prefer to not simply tell someone, but SHOW them.
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On July 08 2012 02:35 Braric wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 02:16 CecilSunkure wrote: This isn't really "HerO's" build. I've seen many koreans do this blindly every game of PvP for many months. You also have poor information in the vs DT section, as most players nowadays do a form of a DT expand, not a DT allin as you seem to have assumed.
There's also a few variations of early WG builds than can give the zealot/sentry/zealot/sentry a hard time, for instance a 2 zeal 2 stalker 2 gate, or other similar openings. Can just pull a few probes to deal with this, building a pylon at the top of ramp to partially wall also helps pretty greatly at denying any probes from getting up your ramp. Probes don't need to get up the ramp. Also any time probes are pulled it means there's a great chance you'll fall behind. Pulling probes is not the "proper" reaction.
On July 08 2012 03:48 DarkblueRH wrote: @CecilSunkure - If they're expanding with DT's you should most definitely be able to scout that fact, and then expand yourself while creating the mentioned wall at your natural as opposed to on top of your main's ramp. - I've updated the original post with this. Ah thanks
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This is a very good build, the versatility is what make it great. As monk said, i feel (cose i never used this variation, just some regular gate-stargate play vs double gas) it may be hard to hold early gate all ins, so i will love to see some top level replay vs a 4gate to see the proper execution.
Thx for the guide.
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On July 08 2012 03:48 DarkblueRH wrote:@Xujhan - 1 gate Stargate on maps without a secondary ramp at the natural or if your opponent just brings 2 probes to build pylons actually should just die to a well executed 4gate as your only real defense (if I'm thinking of the same build) is to deny pylons being built next to your ramp because you won't have enough FF to completely force them out of your base, you need to FF them in and kill units. The 1gate Stargate build I'm referring to is THIS.
You say that 1gate Stargate can't hold a 4agte, and then link to a thread detailing how 1gate Stargate can hold a 4gate? I'm afraid I really don't understand what you're trying to argue. Even if you were right though, it's irrelevant; the opponent will scout double gas and no stalker before having to commit to the Stargate, so it's perfectly safe in any event.
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This seems interesting. PvP has always been dominated by some sort of 2gate with a robo or twilight for me. I still feel abit icky about going stargate(mostly because I dont know how to properly execute it).
Might give it a shot after this guide..
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On July 08 2012 05:47 Xujhan wrote: You say that 1gate Stargate can't hold a 4agte, and then link to a thread detailing how 1gate Stargate can hold a 4gate? I'm afraid I really don't understand what you're trying to argue. Even if you were right though, it's irrelevant; the opponent will scout double gas and no stalker before having to commit to the Stargate, so it's perfectly safe in any event.
You're right. Looking back, what I had said was very stupid. What I was trying to articulate was that it was indeed a bit of a dice roll for your opponent to get an advantage over you by getting an earlier Stargate. But, if they probe scout early they can get a fast Stargate on reaction to your 2nd gas. I was wrong, and I apologize, can you forgive me? I've edited the main post to reflect this.
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Day[9] in his daily brings up a great point that I had not included in the initial guide. If you probe scout up your opponents ramp at ~5:00 and see that he has no units there, you can definitively scout if your opponent is 4gating or not before your Stargate completes. In which case I believe you could just cancel it, build a 3rd gateway and a Robo and abandon going Stargate. This is entirely just a theory of mine but it seems logical, I'm going to try playing around with this idea a bit before updating the original post.
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Pretty good build, i'm certainly going to train it in the next few days. Thks for sharing.
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NEVER expo in phoenix v phoenix unless you have the clear advantage. You can't defend if the other player just attacks you
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even with wall in you cant survive a archon timing from a DT push , 4 archons doubleshot 999999 pheonix stacked up .
3 archons triple shot , you make 3 archons and kill pretty much all pheonix then you can outrange stalkers and kill gateways with a hanful of stalkers or just let zealots kill it very fast .
i was doing this build for last 3 months : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=318673 , and you can easly kill stargate openings with it even if he walls off , just focus archon power on pheonix and then kill wall => gg .
p.s. that build goes for 3 stalker rush into very fast nexus . that means you have a huge economical advantage and even if you lose a lot of zealots trying to kill the wall you will still have bigger or equal army when the wall si down . archons + zealot > anything except colossi that are higher then 4 . 5-6 archons + zealot > 4 colossi + stalkers
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@Cecil
What I mean is the only way you can lose to this type of aggression is if a pylon is built on the top of the ramp or they have high ground vision to attack sentries, you have enough forcefields to buy enough time to have your gates to finish allowing you to permanently keep the ramp force fielded with warp ins if need be. The way I do it at least is open with Zealot Sentry Zealot Sentry and the 2 Zealots basically buy you enough time to ward off initial aggression and when an immediate threat occurs you can just simply begin your forcefield sequence. [/QUOTE]
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On July 08 2012 07:58 xsnac wrote:even with wall in you cant survive a archon timing from a DT push , 4 archons doubleshot 999999 pheonix stacked up . 3 archons triple shot , you make 3 archons and kill pretty much all pheonix then you can outrange stalkers and kill gateways with a hanful of stalkers or just let zealots kill it very fast . i was doing this build for last 3 months : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=318673 , and you can easly kill stargate openings with it even if he walls off , just focus archon power on pheonix and then kill wall => gg . p.s. that build goes for 3 stalker rush into very fast nexus . that means you have a huge economical advantage and even if you lose a lot of zealots trying to kill the wall you will still have bigger or equal army when the wall si down . archons + zealot > anything except colossi that are higher then 4 . 5-6 archons + zealot > 4 colossi + stalkers
You can easily hold off any sort of archon all ins with this build, you should be able to have a good amount of stalkers an Immortal or two out and combine that with a wall I just don't see them breaking up your ramp, as soon as the zealots target down the wall just forcefield it away forcing archons to come and break allowing you to pretty much focus fire them down individually.
Also the way I prefer to do this build is simply not scout at all and use my early phoenix to scout his base, the extra minerals are seriously a huge part in helping you to defend pushes that you otherwise would struggle against.
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Why would you chrono 3 times only to hit a probe cut? Cut a chrono of the nexus or delay it until after dropping the cybercore, there is no point using the third chrono earlier...
If you just use 2 chrono on nexus the build gets smoother as you don't get a probe cut. The extra chrono you have can be put into faster warpgate or just a faster second phoenix, either being really useful.
In fact I prefer the build opening with zealot - stalker(chrono'd) - sentry - sentry. You get the stargate slightly faster this way and you don't have the awkward sentry first opening. A stalker allowes some scouting around your base which is super useful against funky stuff like 10 or 11 gate pressure or just 4 gates in general. If you scout no signs of a 4 gate then you can cancel the second sentry and delay warpgate tech (chrono it less), if you do see signs you let the second sentry finish and put the extra chrono on the warpgate tech. It's just as safe but the stargate is faster and you don't give away information so much by going sentry first.
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The 3rd Chrono Boost will be spent entirely on probes being built if you throw it before the Cybernetics Core. There will be a slight probe cut after that Chrono Boost's duration has been expired but that very slightly effects the worth of that 3rd Chrono Boost. Yes... Part of what makes Chrono so good is that not only does probe 16 and 17 build faster, but probe 18 is allowed to begin building faster. Because of the probe cut this added benefit of probe 18 starting faster is removed from the benefit of the 3rd Chrono Boost with a probe cut afterwards. But probes 16 and 17 still built faster than they would have otherwise, allowing you to mine a few more minerals because of that. So in short... Yea you're right, it'd be better for your overall economy to wait until the cyber has been dropped to spend that 3rd Chrono Boost, but that's nowhere near a game altering decision. It's basically answering the question of, "Do I want slightly more minerals now, or an additional slightly more minerals later." I for one will always choose the "now" option.
If you open with Zealot -> Stalker -> Sentry -> Sentry you will likely not have that precious 3rd Force Field that you'd need to defend early gateway pressure.
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Hey man! Thanks for the guide, this looks great. But do you think you could add some replays? They don't have to be against anything specific but it'd be nice to see more than one example of the execution.
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+ Show Spoiler +On July 08 2012 08:26 Braric wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 07:58 xsnac wrote:even with wall in you cant survive a archon timing from a DT push , 4 archons doubleshot 999999 pheonix stacked up . 3 archons triple shot , you make 3 archons and kill pretty much all pheonix then you can outrange stalkers and kill gateways with a hanful of stalkers or just let zealots kill it very fast . i was doing this build for last 3 months : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=318673 , and you can easly kill stargate openings with it even if he walls off , just focus archon power on pheonix and then kill wall => gg . p.s. that build goes for 3 stalker rush into very fast nexus . that means you have a huge economical advantage and even if you lose a lot of zealots trying to kill the wall you will still have bigger or equal army when the wall si down . archons + zealot > anything except colossi that are higher then 4 . 5-6 archons + zealot > 4 colossi + stalkers You can easily hold off any sort of archon all ins with this build, you should be able to have a good amount of stalkers an Immortal or two out and combine that with a wall I just don't see them breaking up your ramp, as soon as the zealots target down the wall just forcefield it away forcing archons to come and break allowing you to pretty much focus fire them down individually. Also the way I prefer to do this build is simply not scout at all and use my early phoenix to scout his base, the extra minerals are seriously a huge part in helping you to defend pushes that you otherwise would struggle against. sorry but i think ur misinforming ppl , forcefields dosent work vs archons , and even with 3 immortals you wont scratch like 20 zealots . i broke walls for last 3 months with that build . you simply cant hold an expo vs zealot - dt if you invest in stargate and robo . you will simply wont have enough units . 7 gate allin from 2 base with pure zealot archons vs stargate that transition in robo just fails . btw if you wanna argue i suggest you to try the build i was doing atlast once vs stargate play and try to transition into 7 gate allin from 2 base and push , ul see how easy it is .
p.s. i was doing only that build on pvp on master level - eu .
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On July 08 2012 06:32 DarkblueRH wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 05:47 Xujhan wrote: You say that 1gate Stargate can't hold a 4agte, and then link to a thread detailing how 1gate Stargate can hold a 4gate? I'm afraid I really don't understand what you're trying to argue. Even if you were right though, it's irrelevant; the opponent will scout double gas and no stalker before having to commit to the Stargate, so it's perfectly safe in any event.
You're right. Looking back, what I had said was very stupid. What I was trying to articulate was that it was indeed a bit of a dice roll for your opponent to get an advantage over you by getting an earlier Stargate. But, if they probe scout early they can get a fast Stargate on reaction to your 2nd gas. I was wrong, and I apologize, can you forgive me? I've edited the main post to reflect this.
Hey man, no harm no foul. =) It's a really good guide. I use that 1gate Stargate as my go-to build in PvP, so I just wanted to make the one little contribution I had to offer.
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Hmm very nice, thanks for the transcription. I've been doing a build very similar to this, but basically off touch (b/c thats how i do all my builds lol!), and im sure this is much better, as it is more than likely refined coming from HerO! Well written!
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Very well laid-out guide. I've been using a more traditional 1 gate phoenix build (basically Axslav's build). What would be the main pros and cons of the two builds? I suppose you are somewhat safer with the early second sentry but forgo early game map presence?
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How do you get their scout probe out of your base? If they have good micro, they can keep a probe in our base much later than the intended Stargate timing. Unless I'm missing something :/
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On July 08 2012 10:40 DarkblueRH wrote: The 3rd Chrono Boost will be spent entirely on probes being built if you throw it before the Cybernetics Core. There will be a slight probe cut after that Chrono Boost's duration has been expired but that very slightly effects the worth of that 3rd Chrono Boost. Yes... Part of what makes Chrono so good is that not only does probe 16 and 17 build faster, but probe 18 is allowed to begin building faster. Because of the probe cut this added benefit of probe 18 starting faster is removed from the benefit of the 3rd Chrono Boost with a probe cut afterwards. But probes 16 and 17 still built faster than they would have otherwise, allowing you to mine a few more minerals because of that. So in short... Yea you're right, it'd be better for your overall economy to wait until the cyber has been dropped to spend that 3rd Chrono Boost, but that's nowhere near a game altering decision. It's basically answering the question of, "Do I want slightly more minerals now, or an additional slightly more minerals later." I for one will always choose the "now" option.
If you open with Zealot -> Stalker -> Sentry -> Sentry you will likely not have that precious 3rd Force Field that you'd need to defend early gateway pressure.
Having probes 16 and 17 faster is worth practically nothing, each 10 secs earlier (not even the case) is 6 minerals each, ie 12 minerals total. Chrono is only worth it if you have constant production, ie every probe afterwards is also quicker in which case a third chrono sums to about 50-60 minerals for 1 base builds. So if you're going to chrono just before a cut it's just a complete waste and you are better off spending that chrono on the gateway or warpgate timing. If you just throw 2 extra chrono's on gate+warpgate you can go stalker first which I think is to be prefferred over sentry first a lot because you get some map awareness, you don't give away what you are doing and you can actually chase and kill probes near your base..
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HSCV Spoilers:
+ Show Spoiler +Isn't this the build that MC used in that epic HSC game against HasuObs where he used Phoenix to keep Hasu's units in his main and then chain FF'd the ramp and killed his natural Nexus with 2 Zealots and 2 Sentries?
Seems like a solid build, and you might be able to pull that baller move off against 1Gate expand on the ladder a few times.
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Solid first strategy post; I think you'll do well around here DarkblueRH.
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hi! i tried testing this build against 4g with a friend and i couldn't seem to hold it. here's the replay: http://drop.sc/217476 he plants 2 pylons on the low ground early at around 4:20ish, waits for his stalker then pushes up with 2 probes, zealot and stalker. he mineral walks the probes so my zealots don't kill them and then just splits the probes. and builds pylons.
i was thinking maybe i should have forcefielded him before he got up the ramp? i would've been able to delay him so he'd have to warp in the low ground and get my 2nd sentry in time to forcefield. but then would i have been able to keep the ramp FF'd until warp gate finishes?
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I have played passive Stargate-Openers for a long time now and it was really frustrating against players who expanded straight away with blink and/or some fake agression and especially against Phoenix-Mirror where the other player simply went greedier, skipped sentries or the robo against potential DT-Rushes altogether and therefore always had more Phoenix than me. Therefore I recently switched to the 2 Gas, 2 Gate - 1 Zealot / 5 Stalker opening. I get a lot of relyable scouting information early on through aggressive poking and although my Phoenix-Production is a bit delayed a Mirror-Oponent with an Opening like the one presented here has to build a lot of sentries to not outright die, which overcompensates my delayed Stargate.
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On July 09 2012 22:36 Pobbes wrote:hi! i tried testing this build against 4g with a friend and i couldn't seem to hold it. here's the replay: http://drop.sc/217476he plants 2 pylons on the low ground early at around 4:20ish, waits for his stalker then pushes up with 2 probes, zealot and stalker. he mineral walks the probes so my zealots don't kill them and then just splits the probes. and builds pylons. i was thinking maybe i should have forcefielded him before he got up the ramp? i would've been able to delay him so he'd have to warp in the low ground and get my 2nd sentry in time to forcefield. but then would i have been able to keep the ramp FF'd until warp gate finishes?
Hey, add DarkblueRH.749 I'd like to work this out with you if you've got the opportunity. To be honest, I don't have a definitive answer. But I think if you spend Chrono on your gateway, and go zealot->stalker->sentry->sentry like Markwerf suggested you can fight for map presence with your zealot+stalker and hopefully snag a probe or two. But I don't have anyone to practice with and no one has 4gated me on ladder yet in a few days. Also, sending a probe to your opponents base so that you go up the ramp at 5:00 is a definitive scout of a 4gate before the Stargate finishes. You should be able to cancel the Stargate, and go like 3gate-Robo or a defensive 4gate in response to it. But your warpgate will be much later so I'm thinking Robo is the better option for the immortals.
The trick is gonna be figuring out how to deal with both probes at that timing and I think the stalker might just be it. I just don't know how going zealot->stalker->sentry->sentry effects the build as a whole. I still wanna play around with it before making any changes to the guide. I'd love some people to practice it with so please add DarkblueRH.749 and/or Darkblue.162 (My second account) and hit me up when you get a chance.
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Hey guys,
I really love this build, however, I have trouble deciding what to do against a two gate expand. Is it better to just go and try to push with immortal stalker obs? Or take a nexus straight away?
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You'd be better off not making stalkers and going immortal/sentry/zealot/phoenix if you want to bust him off 1 base.
You can likely go for the 1base bust depending on what you see your opponent building in his main. The 2gate expand has a lot of units really early, but not a lot of units later. Off a 2gate expand they're likely to go for a 5gate blink vs phoenix. I'd likely just expand vs that and flex your tech advantage by getting immortals, and eventually colossus when you've got 4 gas.
Basically if he's not making a ton of gateways immediately after he expands, You can likely just go kill him. If he has a ton of gates, then that's the best position for him to be in to hold your 1base attack, so likely expanding is the better option there because you have the tech advantage. However, you can still possibly kill him if you force units into his main with phoenix giving vision of the high ground and warping a zealot or two into his mineral line. Similar to the game that ZasZ was talking about earlier. What's annoying is that the 2gate pressure will force a bunch of sentries out of you :/.
On July 09 2012 13:22 ZasZ. wrote:HSCV Spoilers: + Show Spoiler +Isn't this the build that MC used in that epic HSC game against HasuObs where he used Phoenix to keep Hasu's units in his main and then chain FF'd the ramp and killed his natural Nexus with 2 Zealots and 2 Sentries?
Keep in mind that this advice could be wrong I'm not 100% explored with this build, I just kinda wanted to post it mostly for myself so I can practice it more with the transcribed build written down. I'm working on getting more replays as soon as I'm not embarrassed about posting them because of how sloppy most of them are. If any of you guys reading have good replays of you using this build, please by all means post them!
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nice guide, congratz for the writing work. I hope you upload replays of each gameplan =)
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On July 12 2012 08:34 DarkblueRH wrote:You'd be better off not making stalkers and going immortal/sentry/zealot/phoenix if you want to bust him off 1 base. You can likely go for the 1base bust depending on what you see your opponent building in his main. The 2gate expand has a lot of units really early, but not a lot of units later. Off a 2gate expand they're likely to go for a 5gate blink vs phoenix. I'd likely just expand vs that and flex your tech advantage by getting immortals, and eventually colossus when you've got 4 gas. Basically if he's not making a ton of gateways immediately after he expands, You can likely just go kill him. If he has a ton of gates, then that's the best position for him to be in to hold your 1base attack, so likely expanding is the better option there because you have the tech advantage. However, you can still possibly kill him if you force units into his main with phoenix giving vision of the high ground and warping a zealot or two into his mineral line. Similar to the game that ZasZ was talking about earlier. What's annoying is that the 2gate pressure will force a bunch of sentries out of you :/. Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 13:22 ZasZ. wrote:HSCV Spoilers: + Show Spoiler +Isn't this the build that MC used in that epic HSC game against HasuObs where he used Phoenix to keep Hasu's units in his main and then chain FF'd the ramp and killed his natural Nexus with 2 Zealots and 2 Sentries? Keep in mind that this advice could be wrong I'm not 100% explored with this build, I just kinda wanted to post it mostly for myself so I can practice it more with the transcribed build written down. I'm working on getting more replays as soon as I'm not embarrassed about posting them because of how sloppy most of them are. If any of you guys reading have good replays of you using this build, please by all means post them!
Thank you for your prompt response!
Your answer is very clear and concise and explains precisely why I lost the match. He went 5 gate blink and I tried to bust with stalkers and immortals. Probably not the best idea. I guess if he goes blink, then it's best to expand and hold aggression while teching to colossi, because you'll be getting colossi earlier and your late game composition. (not mid game where he has archons) SHOULD beat his army. He would've already devoted gas to blink, and a natural transition is dts/archons. I guess it also depends on his gate count, Now that i think about it, he did have 4-5 gates, and I made a poor decision. It seems two gate expand into 5 base blink is a great response to this build, because with good micro blink can shut down phoenixes, and the opponent will have a strong mid game army to push/do damage.
TLDR: If opponent is two gate expanding, count gates and expand/attack accordingly. 5 gate blink into archon is strong against this build.
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Hey man, I enjoyed the guide but how about some comments on what maps this would be good/less good on?
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On July 12 2012 19:12 MLuneth wrote: Hey man, I enjoyed the guide but how about some comments on what maps this would be good/less good on?
Done.
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This seems like a solid build, like OP said it spreads you a bit thin - I'm not 100% comfortable with such a slim defense against something like a 4gate which only requires vision of high-ground to win, but I'll for sure be giving this a shot.
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On July 13 2012 06:19 GleefulPiXie wrote: This seems like a solid build, like OP said it spreads you a bit thin - I'm not 100% comfortable with such a slim defense against something like a 4gate which only requires vision of high-ground to win, but I'll for sure be giving this a shot.
JUST re-wrote the 4gate section. So be sure to read it again.
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Just added your guide to Liquipedia, thanks for the awesome work ! HerO's 2Gate Stargate
To be honest this guide has improved my PvP so much, it's not even funny anymore .
By the way, I would need more replays or VODs of this build being used, do you have more of it by any chance?
Thanks a lot !
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Hi just wanted to clarify on the new four gate part:
So you start off not scouting and THEN you send your first probe out to their base, dodging their potential probe, stalker, zealot and arriving at 5? And if the probe is killed you can assume four gate?
Previously, depending on how long they camp, I would have to make up to 5 sentries to hold a persistent four gater.
This would leave me in an awkward position, because I just blew 500 on gas + more on robo. I assume they can somewhat safely expand because my tech is a little slow. I should just tech toward colossi and expand asap because I have earlier robo right?
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How does this fare vs fast expand builds?
Ive been doing a fast expand build for a while now and recently hit 74% win loss ratio on the ladder. My general response to any form of stargate play is to get out 3 immortals and then do an 8 gate all-in off 2 bases. Usually i slightly delay the all-in if i see the phoenixes headed to my base. So if the nix's lift probes they have no energy when i hit. So you could say the way i react to phoenixes is to not react absorb the damage and all in with a greater economy.
Edit: i just re-read the op, apparently the 1st time i read through the OP my brain skipped the "How to React to a FAKE 4gate/3gate All-ins/Pressure that happens to be a 1gate Expand:" Part lol. I'm still not too convinced i've got too much to worry about with that opening. But hopefully i see it more to see how it plays out.
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not that noob friendly, but well it is pvp right?
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MC did a very interesting twist of this build (opening with 2 sentries and 1 zealot) versus HasuObs...
Link to the VOD.
HasuObs did a Fast Expand build and naturally kept his units inside his base to defend the Phoenixes while the expansion. The trick was that MC had built up to six Phoenixes, lifted the scouting Zealot at the Xel'Naga, continuously forcefielded the ramp of HasuObs and just killed the Nexus liked that. Had HasuObs' unit being on the low-ground, he would have seen his probe line decimated by MC's Phoenixes.
Furthermore, warp-in on the low ground was not an option since the Phoenixes would have lifted the warping units and killed those.
This reaction is quite dependent on doing Zealot/Sentry/Sentry (since you need so much forcefields available), but overall this looked very solid.
On July 25 2012 00:51 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 20:51 Ahelvin wrote:Just added your guide to Liquipedia, thanks for the awesome work ! HerO's 2Gate StargateTo be honest this guide has improved my PvP so much, it's not even funny anymore . By the way, I would need more replays or VODs of this build being used, do you have more of it by any chance? Thanks a lot ! I was gonna transcribe this over when I'd finished sorting out some of the problems the current guides have, so you've saved me a lot of effort. Thanks! You're very welcome, I'm heavily procrastinating on my thesis right now, so I may add a few more guides in the days to come .
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Been using this type of build for a couple of weeks now and PvP has become my favourite match up. I Just love going Phoenix since it gives you map control and constant scouting/threat of harass
Great Guide
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On July 12 2012 06:27 LiSAuCE wrote: Hey guys,
I really love this build, however, I have trouble deciding what to do against a two gate expand. Is it better to just go and try to push with immortal stalker obs? Or take a nexus straight away?
Take nexus straight away and harass with Phoenix to even it out.
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I've been playing phoenix pvp for a while, and my input would be that you don't really want to kill probes with the phoenixes, you want to get sentries first and then save the energy to kill units during the battles.
I get more than 3 phoenixes, though, so that may change depending on how many you get
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this build supposes no scout, I would pointed it out in the discription of the build order.
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Very cool, thanks for the build
I've been doing the grubby style stargate build from day9 #403 for a while, but this seems like it might be a stronger style opening. Can't wait to try it out tonight :3
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On July 08 2012 01:46 Xujhan wrote: Just a minor comment about your vs Stargate section:
1gate Stargate isn't a risky build; it still gets enough FFs to hold a 4gate. Moreover, if your opponent scouts you opening double gas and zealot-sentry, there's no risk at all. Also, in a phoenix mirror, I really don't think you want to be cutting phoenixes. Even just three phoenixes represent 450 gas - enough for nine stalkers - and if you let your opponent get a higher phoenix count, they're almost entirely useless.
Phoenixes are only 100 gas each. Thus, each phoenix is two stalkers, not three.
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On July 26 2012 10:30 trbot wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 01:46 Xujhan wrote: Just a minor comment about your vs Stargate section:
1gate Stargate isn't a risky build; it still gets enough FFs to hold a 4gate. Moreover, if your opponent scouts you opening double gas and zealot-sentry, there's no risk at all. Also, in a phoenix mirror, I really don't think you want to be cutting phoenixes. Even just three phoenixes represent 450 gas - enough for nine stalkers - and if you let your opponent get a higher phoenix count, they're almost entirely useless. Phoenixes are only 100 gas each. Thus, each phoenix is two stalkers, not three.
Stargate costs 150 gas, gateways zero
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On July 26 2012 10:37 Mstring wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2012 10:30 trbot wrote:On July 08 2012 01:46 Xujhan wrote: Just a minor comment about your vs Stargate section:
1gate Stargate isn't a risky build; it still gets enough FFs to hold a 4gate. Moreover, if your opponent scouts you opening double gas and zealot-sentry, there's no risk at all. Also, in a phoenix mirror, I really don't think you want to be cutting phoenixes. Even just three phoenixes represent 450 gas - enough for nine stalkers - and if you let your opponent get a higher phoenix count, they're almost entirely useless. Phoenixes are only 100 gas each. Thus, each phoenix is two stalkers, not three. Stargate costs 150 gas, gateways zero
Right. Of course.
On a side-note, I'd think to beat phoenix mirror you'd just need to beat him on upgrades, or grab one or two high templar for feedback. (Oh, yeah, and add a cannon beside your stargate if he tries to camp.)
If he commits heavily to air, I wonder if it might be possible to grab a fleet beacon (which you'll want for mothership anyway) and chrono out a carrier instead of 2-3 phoenixes (80s w/4 chrono). With a +1 armor lead, a carrier takes a whopping 90 phoenix shots to kill, and I can see interceptors messing with phoenixes' targeting AI.
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Just added a few replays to the OP. Thank you very much Tombomb! <3
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Hi, Gold league player here. PvP has always amazed me in a sense, however, playing the matchup itself was very difficult for me because I had no clue as to what to do, how to scout after a certain moment, et cetera. This opening really helps me with that as the Phoenixes stay alive forever and they help me scout for all the important things so I can get into the mid-late game safely.
However, I do have some minor issues (besides my macro slipping up at times) while doing the build and following it up. - In the early game when I get scouted, is there a reliable way to kill the scouting probe or should I just micro my Zealot/Sentry really well? I've played a couple of games where I couldn't stop them from seeing me go Stargate, and this really bothers me. - Earlier in this thread there was a mention of expanding early behind two gateways (along with a robo, perhaps). I've also seen more greedy openings while I tried doing this build (e.g. 1gate gasless expo or even nexus first). Is there, perhaps, a specific number of gateways/robos or amount of tech which tips me that I can try for a 1base bust (with a positive result)? Or that should I just expand behind and try to make up for it with Phoenixes in nearly every situation? Or is this something I should just learn as I start experimenting more with the build? I usually just raise my shoulders and try to harass and macro my way back up, as I feel that that teaches me the most at the level I am at, but doing a 1base bust might not be so bad to practise every once in a while.
Thanks in advance.
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Thanks for the guide! I've been dancing around Stargate PvP for quite a while, but never actually dove in because of the still relative obscurity of the many, many branches you have to know and be good at executing. This guide sums it all up pretty well.. it finally feels like I am actually playing a reactive PvP instead of running a pressure build with several tiers and hoping they make mistakes.
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I used SG in PvP to a lot of success in the past two seasons of ladder so I think I can provide a little bit of insight.
1. Don't completely understand the triple cb on nexus AND the gas timing. Cutting one CB there and putting it on your WG research always kept me much safer against any kind of early pokes, as well.
2. The greatest weaknesses of this build are not from 1 base aggression, be it 3-4 gate pressure or DT/archon stuff, but rather transitioning against a player who has expanded before you. Players have been opening phoenix a lot more on the ladder recently, and a very easy way to put them away is to just go kill them after blink is about done with ~6 gates worth of WG units. Holding this off is extremely difficult because your robo tech is very far behind. What I used to do was go up to 3 or 4 immortals before thinking about colossus tech, sometimes even going up to 2 robos to pump immortals out to hold the 2 base timing.
Here are some replays for reference
http://drop.sc/229109 http://drop.sc/229110
Even if you have energy for lifts during the engagement, that is 450 gas sunk which is a lot sure--but more importantly it was sunk very early and your follow-up tech tree is always undeveloped relative to your opponent.
While the phoenix + 3 gates 1 base all-in is very effective against expanding players, I am not sure how potent phoenix are in PvP anymore, which is sad because I used to think it was going to be THE opener for PvP someday. Check out this GSL game of killer vs parting. Albeit parting is on another level, killer gets the definition of a build order win and the phoenixes come up short.
It's game 1 so it's free to watch for all! http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls3/vod/67612
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Thanks for the post Alej, however this is going to be one of the few times I've actually disagreed with something you've said.
First off, the gas timings with 2 probes on gas and filling once the zealot starts gives you quite literally the perfect amount of gas for exactly what this build aims to do. The 3rd Chrono Boost is something I've been dabbling with a lot myself. Using it on probes vs having it on Warpgate vs on your gateway to squeeze out a 5th unit before Warpgate completes all seem to be viable options. Not entirely sure what's best as it's almost entirely dependent on what your opponent is doing and that's not always clear. Having it on probes (a bit delayed after the second chrono boost) has been my go-to option thus far as I haven't personally had any problems with early pressure all too much because of the scout at my opponent's ramp at 5:00. Planting a random pylon at a ridiculous location with that scout probe is also a good way to see if your opponent is being aggressive. If he searches for it and tries to kill it... He can't be 4gating you at the same time. If he doesn't kill it... FF your ramp and send a zealot or two to his base for a clean victory.
As for your second point, PvP post-expansion is likely the least explored scenario in SC2 to date. This is exemplified in all three replays which you've posted as your counter-argument to phoenix. Hindsight is 20/20 and I'm by no means stating that I'm better than you or your opponents, but, from the replays of you going for a 5gate blink off 2 base vs your opponent, you blatantly give off the fact that you're simply massing stalkers. I feel that this decision is extremely weak given that your opponent "should" know exactly what your possible options for victory are because of the fact that he has phoenix. If you're on 2 base with 5 gates with only 2 gas, a twilight, a robo not building anything, and no swirling effect on the top of either of your Nexi... The only possibility for your victory is a 2base timing. Your opponents in both games continue to make probes, greedily get colossus, stay on 2 gateways, and just fall over easily because of their inability to comprehend the information they're seeing with their phoenix, not because of their build-order. The lack of a 3rd and 4th gas should be an immediate tell of either a crazy greedy 3rd, or a 2base timing. Both of which going for a greedy colossus off of 2 gates isn't the best course of action.
As for the Killer game... He just played that like shit... All he has to do is keep the ramp FF, use the zealots to kill the only pylon on the low-ground, use the phoenix to kill the 2 stalkers on the low-ground, snag the free nexus using only the 5 zealots he made, and walk away.
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in reply to the dude who thinks 2 base blink kills it is wrong. even if you spread thin on 2 gates and colossus tech before colossus vomes out the pheonix obs keeps u safe from blink ups into main and since u can see it comong making 3 to 4 immortals out of 1 robo and extra stalkers alongside your 2 full energy sentries you should be able to hold ur ramp easy. if they are hitting a critical timing make a double forcefeild wall so blink on immortals is not possible if u that scared
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On July 31 2012 00:46 ellsworth wrote: in reply to the dude who thinks 2 base blink kills it is wrong. even if you spread thin on 2 gates and colossus tech before colossus pops out the pheonix obs keeps u safe from blink ups into main and since u can see it comong making 3 to 4 immortals out of 1 robo and extra stalkers alongside your 2 full energy sentries you should be able to hold ur ramp easy. if they are hitting a critical timing make a double forcefeild wall so blink on immortals is not possible if u that scared
User was warned for this post
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I do not understand how you beat a 1-gate expand build with this....
Pretty much by the time ur pheonix scouts it their nexus is complete. Also, you can't scout earlier since you only got zealot and sentries.. and from that point behind economically. Trying to all-in against someone who got immortals, cannons (since he didnt scout expo from you) and sentries just dosn't work very well.
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I haven't played many games vs a 1gate expansion because it just doesn't happen much in PvP. However, the games that I have played the probe at 5:00 often sees that they're expanding or at the very least sees that they're not 4gating since if he kills the probe he can't also be at your base with a pylon. In the case where you see the expansion at 5:00 you can just plop down 4 gates and usually just kill him with zealot/sentry/phoenix.
The only games that I lost the all-in vs the 1gate expansion were due to my own micro mistakes because he can't really defend with FF because at that time he can't both have enough stalkers to threaten your phoenix AND have enough sentries to threaten your zealots. He also can't have blink so FF + Zealots should reign supreme with good micro.
In the case where you don't see the expansion until the first 2 phoenix are at his base... I don't have a lot of experience with. I assume that you can just do the same sort of all-in... Cancel the robo and gogo.
If he expands with cannons... Just keep building phoenix because he can't have a lot of gateways and have cannons with an expansion. Force cannons in both of his mineral lines and expand yourself. In this case it's alright to expand behind him because you'll have a huge tech advantage while not truly being that far behind on economy due to the phoenix harass that he can't deal with without building cannons in his main and natural.
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Canada13372 Posts
On July 27 2012 11:49 Alejandrisha wrote:I used SG in PvP to a lot of success in the past two seasons of ladder so I think I can provide a little bit of insight. 1. Don't completely understand the triple cb on nexus AND the gas timing. Cutting one CB there and putting it on your WG research always kept me much safer against any kind of early pokes, as well. 2. The greatest weaknesses of this build are not from 1 base aggression, be it 3-4 gate pressure or DT/archon stuff, but rather transitioning against a player who has expanded before you. Players have been opening phoenix a lot more on the ladder recently, and a very easy way to put them away is to just go kill them after blink is about done with ~6 gates worth of WG units. Holding this off is extremely difficult because your robo tech is very far behind. What I used to do was go up to 3 or 4 immortals before thinking about colossus tech, sometimes even going up to 2 robos to pump immortals out to hold the 2 base timing. Here are some replays for reference http://drop.sc/229109http://drop.sc/229110Even if you have energy for lifts during the engagement, that is 450 gas sunk which is a lot sure--but more importantly it was sunk very early and your follow-up tech tree is always undeveloped relative to your opponent. While the phoenix + 3 gates 1 base all-in is very effective against expanding players, I am not sure how potent phoenix are in PvP anymore, which is sad because I used to think it was going to be THE opener for PvP someday. Check out this GSL game of killer vs parting. Albeit parting is on another level, killer gets the definition of a build order win and the phoenixes come up short. It's game 1 so it's free to watch for all! http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls3/vod/67612
I do the 6:30ish robo expand build. Against Pheonix I cancel my support bay, build a wall at my nat to choke zealots and go for fast blink. Granted I am only mid master but personally, I have found this to be much more reliable than to try and one base defend phoenix.
So if I open robo as I normally do and see pheonix I just expand as normal, wall off, get fast blink and slowly with about 6 gates of production (3 at my wall) and 2 immortals tend to hold pheonix all ins.
The logic being that they can lift my sentries, thats fine my fighting force will then include 2 immortals and stalkers with zealots blocking the hole. If they lift the immortals, that 2 less pheonix to deal with. And once blink is fully chronoed through I have a ton of stuff to defend and attack with. If the opponent decides to attack with immortals to try and break the wall I can engage with FFs to trap some units at my wall and take the opponent apart by piecemeal.
Like you said, if they try to expo I will have 6 gate blink up and I can usually just walk all over them since their robo is late and I have blink obs off 2 base with better econ.
If they try to take down my wall with stalkers only, well my blink will finish eventually and I can make some extra gates thats ok with me. If the pheonix dont lift my sentries and the stalkers try to kill the wall as pointed out before the FFs will trap them then I can just shoot them with my own army since I leave a gap to exit my nat. This works especially well on maps ramps to the nat
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On July 31 2012 04:16 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 11:49 Alejandrisha wrote:I used SG in PvP to a lot of success in the past two seasons of ladder so I think I can provide a little bit of insight. 1. Don't completely understand the triple cb on nexus AND the gas timing. Cutting one CB there and putting it on your WG research always kept me much safer against any kind of early pokes, as well. 2. The greatest weaknesses of this build are not from 1 base aggression, be it 3-4 gate pressure or DT/archon stuff, but rather transitioning against a player who has expanded before you. Players have been opening phoenix a lot more on the ladder recently, and a very easy way to put them away is to just go kill them after blink is about done with ~6 gates worth of WG units. Holding this off is extremely difficult because your robo tech is very far behind. What I used to do was go up to 3 or 4 immortals before thinking about colossus tech, sometimes even going up to 2 robos to pump immortals out to hold the 2 base timing. Here are some replays for reference http://drop.sc/229109http://drop.sc/229110Even if you have energy for lifts during the engagement, that is 450 gas sunk which is a lot sure--but more importantly it was sunk very early and your follow-up tech tree is always undeveloped relative to your opponent. While the phoenix + 3 gates 1 base all-in is very effective against expanding players, I am not sure how potent phoenix are in PvP anymore, which is sad because I used to think it was going to be THE opener for PvP someday. Check out this GSL game of killer vs parting. Albeit parting is on another level, killer gets the definition of a build order win and the phoenixes come up short. It's game 1 so it's free to watch for all! http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls3/vod/67612 I do the 6:30ish robo expand build. Against Pheonix I cancel my support bay, build a wall at my nat to choke zealots and go for fast blink. Granted I am only mid master but personally, I have found this to be much more reliable than to try and one base defend phoenix. So if I open robo as I normally do and see pheonix I just expand as normal, wall off, get fast blink and slowly with about 6 gates of production (3 at my wall) and 2 immortals tend to hold pheonix all ins. The logic being that they can lift my sentries, thats fine my fighting force will then include 2 immortals and stalkers with zealots blocking the hole. If they lift the immortals, that 2 less pheonix to deal with. And once blink is fully chronoed through I have a ton of stuff to defend and attack with. If the opponent decides to attack with immortals to try and break the wall I can engage with FFs to trap some units at my wall and take the opponent apart by piecemeal. Like you said, if they try to expo I will have 6 gate blink up and I can usually just walk all over them since their robo is late and I have blink obs off 2 base with better econ. If they try to take down my wall with stalkers only, well my blink will finish eventually and I can make some extra gates thats ok with me. If the pheonix dont lift my sentries and the stalkers try to kill the wall as pointed out before the FFs will trap them then I can just shoot them with my own army since I leave a gap to exit my nat. This works especially well on maps ramps to the nat Do you have any replay of you doing this? That sounds very interesting .
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Just wanted to chime in and say thanks to OP for writing up this build, it's very helpful as a zerg who loves mutalisks and switched to random. The mobility is amazing. The fact that you're pretty safe while doing it is even better! Naturally, however, every build will start to be figured out - in the interim, however, I will enjoy the overall viability of this build.
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On July 31 2012 04:34 Ahelvin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 04:16 ZeromuS wrote:On July 27 2012 11:49 Alejandrisha wrote:I used SG in PvP to a lot of success in the past two seasons of ladder so I think I can provide a little bit of insight. 1. Don't completely understand the triple cb on nexus AND the gas timing. Cutting one CB there and putting it on your WG research always kept me much safer against any kind of early pokes, as well. 2. The greatest weaknesses of this build are not from 1 base aggression, be it 3-4 gate pressure or DT/archon stuff, but rather transitioning against a player who has expanded before you. Players have been opening phoenix a lot more on the ladder recently, and a very easy way to put them away is to just go kill them after blink is about done with ~6 gates worth of WG units. Holding this off is extremely difficult because your robo tech is very far behind. What I used to do was go up to 3 or 4 immortals before thinking about colossus tech, sometimes even going up to 2 robos to pump immortals out to hold the 2 base timing. Here are some replays for reference http://drop.sc/229109http://drop.sc/229110Even if you have energy for lifts during the engagement, that is 450 gas sunk which is a lot sure--but more importantly it was sunk very early and your follow-up tech tree is always undeveloped relative to your opponent. While the phoenix + 3 gates 1 base all-in is very effective against expanding players, I am not sure how potent phoenix are in PvP anymore, which is sad because I used to think it was going to be THE opener for PvP someday. Check out this GSL game of killer vs parting. Albeit parting is on another level, killer gets the definition of a build order win and the phoenixes come up short. It's game 1 so it's free to watch for all! http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls3/vod/67612 I do the 6:30ish robo expand build. Against Pheonix I cancel my support bay, build a wall at my nat to choke zealots and go for fast blink. Granted I am only mid master but personally, I have found this to be much more reliable than to try and one base defend phoenix. So if I open robo as I normally do and see pheonix I just expand as normal, wall off, get fast blink and slowly with about 6 gates of production (3 at my wall) and 2 immortals tend to hold pheonix all ins. The logic being that they can lift my sentries, thats fine my fighting force will then include 2 immortals and stalkers with zealots blocking the hole. If they lift the immortals, that 2 less pheonix to deal with. And once blink is fully chronoed through I have a ton of stuff to defend and attack with. If the opponent decides to attack with immortals to try and break the wall I can engage with FFs to trap some units at my wall and take the opponent apart by piecemeal. Like you said, if they try to expo I will have 6 gate blink up and I can usually just walk all over them since their robo is late and I have blink obs off 2 base with better econ. If they try to take down my wall with stalkers only, well my blink will finish eventually and I can make some extra gates thats ok with me. If the pheonix dont lift my sentries and the stalkers try to kill the wall as pointed out before the FFs will trap them then I can just shoot them with my own army since I leave a gap to exit my nat. This works especially well on maps ramps to the nat Do you have any replay of you doing this? That sounds very interesting .
here are a few vs phoenix 1-base all-in if you have time to get an immortal out, definitely do so: http://drop.sc/231759 if you don't, you need to have 4 gateways worth of production: http://drop.sc/231758
edit: and this one is with a later expansion (gate robo gate instead of 1g expand) http://drop.sc/231794
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On July 31 2012 04:41 cresse wrote: Just wanted to chime in and say thanks to OP for writing up this build, it's very helpful as a zerg who loves mutalisks and switched to random. The mobility is amazing. The fact that you're pretty safe while doing it is even better! Naturally, however, every build will start to be figured out - in the interim, however, I will enjoy the overall viability of this build.
I love you <3
@ZeromuS - This actually seems to be the best way to expand vs a Phoenix player. Sets you ahead for the encroaching macro-game and gives you an absolute defense given that zealots are your only fear. Walling off is genius, going for the attack with 6gate blink at a nice timing is also genius. However, I don't believe going for the mass blink stalker push should be thought of as a "free win" as Alej had stated and a back-up plan should be thought of because if you don't outright win the game with the blink stalkers you'll lose the colossus war. Assuming worst case scenario, your opponent just masses immortals off two robotics facilities with sentries and zealots AND you were forced to blink forward on top of his immortals... You should just immediately lose the game to a counter attack or to a 3rd base because of the exponential decay in the strength of blink stalkers as numbers diminish and time goes on.
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There are definitely styles in which you want to get more than 3 phoenixes. Really it's better to use your own judgement from what you scout rather than to limit yourself to the frame of mind that you can never ever build more than 3. On occasion I go up to like 7 if, for example, somebody is doing some silly 1 base colossus stuff and I know I can do a ton of damage with more than 3, or if they're doing a 1 base allin I find more phoenixes to be sueful because their unit numbers will be smaller making lifts exponentially powerful.
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On July 31 2012 11:19 azuRe_ wrote: There are definitely styles in which you want to get more than 3 phoenixes. Really it's better to use your own judgement from what you scout rather than to limit yourself to the frame of mind that you can never ever build more than 3. On occasion I go up to like 7 if, for example, somebody is doing some silly 1 base colossus stuff and I know I can do a ton of damage with more than 3, or if they're doing a 1 base allin I find more phoenixes to be sueful because their unit numbers will be smaller making lifts exponentially powerful.
Interesting point you make here. Could you possibly provide replays of these situations please? I'd love to learn more about the situations where continuing phoenix production beyond an opener into a legitimate mid-game composition can be beneficial.
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vs 1 base colossus all-in ( 1 colossus no range backed with 4 gateways ), the best move from that position is actually make void rays and 1 immortal to go with your ffs. they have to only make stalkers to deal with your void to ensure the colo can do enough damage before the void ray(s) focus them down
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I have done this build pretty much since I saw that daily. It's fun as hell to do and is as safe as an opening gets in PvP. As with all PvP builds, you need to be very active with your scouting so that you don't die (eg: don't skip scouting altogether as Day9 suggests unless you are way better than I am).
IMO, the only really dangerous thing this build has to face is a quick 1-gate expand into a zealot-archon timing, everything else can be dealt with if you play the rest of the game well enough (not saying nothing else is hard, but nothing else scares the crap out of me).
When spotting an expand, I would recommend expanding right after, unless your opponent is playing extremely greedily, then obviously you can just kill him, but I prefer expanding and being a little bit behind, econmically, but teching slightly faster. The thing with phoenixes is either your opponent can build excess stalkers (horrible units at fighting) or canons or let you scout every single move that he makes immediately. Unless your opponent has particularly good multi tasking, it's normally pretty simple to get a probe kill with almost every 50 energy you get.
You will be totally safe vs warp prisms, blink-obs is relatively easy to deal with (even if you can't snipe his obs he'll have to blink right onto zealot-immortal, which is not good for him) and have the ability to get fantasic reads on your opponent. A 30 second later expansion can be overcome with superior scouting and decision making in any matchup, but especially PvP which is a fairly tricky matchup.
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what do you suggest if your probe at 5 mins sees a building stargate? i tried double stargate but found i didnt have the gas, should i deviate my tech path at all, say throw down a twilight for blink?
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Canada13372 Posts
On July 31 2012 10:01 DarkblueRH wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 04:41 cresse wrote: Just wanted to chime in and say thanks to OP for writing up this build, it's very helpful as a zerg who loves mutalisks and switched to random. The mobility is amazing. The fact that you're pretty safe while doing it is even better! Naturally, however, every build will start to be figured out - in the interim, however, I will enjoy the overall viability of this build. I love you <3 @ZeromuS - This actually seems to be the best way to expand vs a Phoenix player. Sets you ahead for the encroaching macro-game and gives you an absolute defense given that zealots are your only fear. Walling off is genius, going for the attack with 6gate blink at a nice timing is also genius. However, I don't believe going for the mass blink stalker push should be thought of as a "free win" as Alej had stated and a back-up plan should be thought of because if you don't outright win the game with the blink stalkers you'll lose the colossus war. Assuming worst case scenario, your opponent just masses immortals off two robotics facilities with sentries and zealots AND you were forced to blink forward on top of his immortals... You should just immediately lose the game to a counter attack or to a 3rd base because of the exponential decay in the strength of blink stalkers as numbers diminish and time goes on.
I do the 6 gate blink as a response to holding the pheonix all in. I already will have 5 gates up and a robo.
If they dont leave and decide to try and turtle I push with the 6 gates if he didnt do a robo variant, tech to collossus while pressuring if it was a robo variant with immortals to try and all in.
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I love Hero, but Hero and safe in the same quote, NOT POSSIBLE!
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On August 01 2012 05:00 ThePianoDentist wrote: what do you suggest if your probe at 5 mins sees a building stargate? i tried double stargate but found i didnt have the gas, should i deviate my tech path at all, say throw down a twilight for blink? you can't do double stargate off of one base, but double stargate off of 2 base can work if they do expand. make sure the nexus finishes tho..
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There is no such thing as a safe build. All builds have weaknesses and can be exploited.
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On August 01 2012 06:35 ChoboDane wrote: There is no such thing as a safe build. All builds have weaknesses and can be exploited.
Not when the only weakness is proxy and something really not standard like 2 gates masszealot or something..Then we can say it's "Safe".
It's called Safe becasue its safe against everything we know, and everything logic if its not known you will be doing that build..
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On August 02 2012 00:31 Yokoblue wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 06:35 ChoboDane wrote: There is no such thing as a safe build. All builds have weaknesses and can be exploited. Not when the only weakness is proxy and something really not standard like 2 gates masszealot or something..Then we can say it's "Safe". It's called Safe becasue its safe against everything we know, and everything logic if its not known you will be doing that build..
And 10 gate pressure builds can really give this trouble as stated earlier. I also wonder how this does vs a quick dt expand ( not the dts themselves) But the inevitable Zarchon followup. Just seems like it would do well against this opening, but then again you have phoenix so you should see it well b4 the push comes.
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ROG ASUS spoilers HerO vs Elfi
+ Show Spoiler +Game 1 of HerO vs Elfi was really interesting. Elfi basically did this build (with some small differences but the main idea was the same, stargate + fast robo). Elfi did ZERO damage with his 3 phoenix, so he decided to mass immortals and pheonix and transitioned into a brutal 1 base all in that absolutely crushed HerO's blink robo expansion response. He had enough phoenix to remove 6-7 stalkers from a fight at any time (and in fact caught 7 of HerO's stalkers on the map and lifted them so they couldn't escape). HerO warped in a bunch of sentries to hold but Elfi simply lifted and killed them.
Elfi's all in looked absolutely brutal and I was wondering, what was the appropriate response for HerO? If he overmakes stalkers, he gets wrecked by the immortals. If he doesn't make enough stalkers, he gets wrecked by phoenix.
Also interesting is how Elfi turned this safe opening into a brutal all in. Hopefully the VOD will be up soon because I, for sure, will be studying this game.
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Really like this build. One concern that I always have with every build is, how well does it deal with cannon rushes and proxy gates. I mean, I know that's cheese, but some builds make them easier to hold, for example 11 gate into 3 gate pressure. With this build you make a 13 gate and take early double gas. After that it seems to me that you are doomed if you get cheesed.
Any advice here?
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I have used this build in my last 3 PVPs and I must say, it really works well! Only gold though, but I was able to get a 100% win rate thus far.
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I will tack my support onto this thread. The opener absolutely resurrected my PvP.
The comment I'll add onto this thread is that I don't understand when it's best to expand instead of stay on 1 base and attack. It seems like Stargate all-ins are way too strong for expanding to actually be worthwhile. From what I can tell, the typical tree of responses is:
DT Expand > 4gate + Phoenix all-in Gateway Expand or Blink Expand > 4gate + Phoenix all-in, or 3 Immortal + Phoenix all-in depending on timing of expo Blink Obs > ~3 Immortals, kill obs, push his army around, all-in with 1 rangeless Colossus Stargate > More and more Phoenix, 4gate Gateway (mostly Stalker) all-in when he expands
Whenever I have expanded with this opener, it just puts me into a pretty lame circumstance where I'm either on equal footing or behind in economy. Whereas whenever I stay on 1 base and just attack and micro well, I crush them really hard.
Mid-Masters NA by the way, roughly 1150 point MMR.
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Doing a quite similar build, though possibly less safe becuase I go for gas first then gateway I find it not too hard to hold off gateway pressure. For one when their rush hits you would have 1 or 2 pheonix and the zlot sentires defense. You can either counter with the pheonix while you ff your ramp and keep them from gaining vision on the highground or you could simply lift up some stalkers and focus fire the other units still on the ground. I find that works well because then they have less things potentially shooting at you and then you can counter with the pheonix, start producing robo units and expand comfortably.
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On July 07 2012 19:13 Makuly wrote: This build is great HOWEVER as in pvp the coin flip does take its toll. going 1gate stargate will most definitely die to a 4gate/3gate pressure, if you survive it's because the aggressor is bad. if he goes blind DTs you're screwed as well, going 1gate stargate THEN robo you wont have anything for detection until later on, it's just not possible.
Other than that this build is good! But keep in mind, there is no safe pvp build order im sorry to say
1 gate into star then robo is actually just fine to hold a DT rush. DTs can't hit the field until like 7:30. More than enough time to get that detection.
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Great guide, gonna try this now, thanks!
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This guide won me my first match in the EG kingston hyperx tourney, thanks so much :D I learned it and practiced it all day today (also thanks to day9, which I rewatched and hadn't really paid attention to the build order the first time I saw it). So fun, the other guy was also doing this exact build, which I scouted around 5m like suggested, saw 2 zealots and 2 sentries so knew it was the same. Pumped extra phoenixes, waited for his phoenix attack, and got the advantage, then expanded and held with zealot immortal sentry and decent lifts (could have been better in hind sight). Not sure if this is the ideal counter, to pump a few more phoenixes and get air control, but it certainly worked for me (me as plat vs masters player :D).
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If I'm playing against a robo player, and I expand then he expands, can I usually just go kill him? I should have close immortal counts but can lift all of his... I'm just a little unsure of my decisionmaking out of this.
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United States4883 Posts
On October 06 2012 08:39 See.Blue wrote: If I'm playing against a robo player, and I expand then he expands, can I usually just go kill him? I should have close immortal counts but can lift all of his... I'm just a little unsure of my decisionmaking out of this.
In many cases, you can forgo the nexus for extra gateways and just do a push with 2 immortals, 3-4 phoenix, and 4 gateways. This is an incredibly difficult rush to stop, especially for someone who opens robo, as immortals are actually useless against the phoenixes. The best way to deal with this as the defender is to just insta-tech switch to blink stalkers and just get a TON of blinker stalkers/zealots.
If you want to go ahead and do the expansion, keep making phoenixes and harassing the worker line until your opponent puts a twilight council up. In the meanwhile, you can push your map control advantage by chronoboosting workers and starting on either colossus production or zealot/archon sooner than your opponent. In the case of colossus production, just make a push at 3 colossus for a fairly easy win.
All in all, stargate opening is kind of considered a "build order win" against robo, which is why many players will INSTANTLY go into blink stalkers or zealot/archon.
Hope this helps!
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On October 06 2012 08:49 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 08:39 See.Blue wrote: If I'm playing against a robo player, and I expand then he expands, can I usually just go kill him? I should have close immortal counts but can lift all of his... I'm just a little unsure of my decisionmaking out of this. In many cases, you can forgo the nexus for extra gateways and just do a push with 2 immortals, 3-4 phoenix, and 4 gateways. This is an incredibly difficult rush to stop, especially for someone who opens robo, as immortals are actually useless against the phoenixes. The best way to deal with this as the defender is to just insta-tech switch to blink stalkers and just get a TON of blinker stalkers/zealots. If you want to go ahead and do the expansion, keep making phoenixes and harassing the worker line until your opponent puts a twilight council up. In the meanwhile, you can push your map control advantage by chronoboosting workers and starting on either colossus production or zealot/archon sooner than your opponent. In the case of colossus production, just make a push at 3 colossus for a fairly easy win. All in all, stargate opening is kind of considered a "build order win" against robo, which is why many players will INSTANTLY go into blink stalkers or zealot/archon. Hope this helps!
Ah that makes a lot of sense. Thanks a lot!
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Are you supposed to proxy the stargate? It seems like building it so early leaves it to be scouted.
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No, there is no need to proxy it. It can't be scouted, by the time you need to place the stargate you will have a zealot and a sentry with another zealot nearly done. No way for a probe to get past that, just place your units near the top of your ramp. If he scouts early with an observer, he went robo. Rejoice!
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On July 31 2012 12:12 Alejandrisha wrote: vs 1 base colossus all-in ( 1 colossus no range backed with 4 gateways ), the best move from that position is actually make void rays and 1 immortal to go with your ffs. they have to only make stalkers to deal with your void to ensure the colo can do enough damage before the void ray(s) focus them down
Any other thoughts on this? I've never found this to be the case. While its true that all their forward warp in will be stalkers, there will be very few in the original move out as the collosus+few sentries eat up tons of gas. With VRs you get to choose exactly one fight because if you don't kill him a 4 stalker warp in ends the game. If you're active like you should be with your phoenixes you can harass the collossus Alllllll the way from his robo to your base. There is no way you he has the stalker count to prevent it.
I never ever lose to 1 base collosus if I open Phoenix. The left over energy can then be used to scoop up zealots and or stalkers. Just make sure to not burn it on probes if he's on 1 base.
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IMO the best way to defend all-ins is to park your pheonixes near his choke as often as possible ( when you're not harassing his mineral line ) and scout when he's sending out a probe to build his proxy pylon. Kill the probe and delay his push. This will force him to bring a probe or two along with his entire army, but against a robo build, it may be more effective to kill these probes than sacrifice phoenixes to stalkers shots just to kill a colossus.
Basically, lift the proxy probe to delay the push as much as possible.
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On October 11 2012 03:08 Nyast wrote: IMO the best way to defend all-ins is to park your pheonixes near his choke as often as possible ( when you're not harassing his mineral line ) and scout when he's sending out a probe to build his proxy pylon. Kill the probe and delay his push. This will force him to bring a probe or two along with his entire army, but against a robo build, it may be more effective to kill these probes than sacrifice phoenixes to stalkers shots just to kill a colossus.
Basically, lift the proxy probe to delay the push as much as possible.
This... I cannot stress more how amazing doing this is.
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On October 11 2012 00:53 Shikada wrote: No, there is no need to proxy it. It can't be scouted, by the time you need to place the stargate you will have a zealot and a sentry with another zealot nearly done. No way for a probe to get past that, just place your units near the top of your ramp. If he scouts early with an observer, he went robo. Rejoice!
I guess the game I played that made me think of this is one where he pylon scouted and was in my base before my units were out. The sentry was huffing and puffing after the little guy but I had to delay my stargate.
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On October 11 2012 03:44 Carmine wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 00:53 Shikada wrote: No, there is no need to proxy it. It can't be scouted, by the time you need to place the stargate you will have a zealot and a sentry with another zealot nearly done. No way for a probe to get past that, just place your units near the top of your ramp. If he scouts early with an observer, he went robo. Rejoice! I guess the game I played that made me think of this is one where he pylon scouted and was in my base before my units were out. The sentry was huffing and puffing after the little guy but I had to delay my stargate. If this is a safe build as the OP claims, there is no reason to delay it. Just put it down while he/she's in the base with his probe.
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I'm not sure how often this build is used, but I've been doing nothing but the FXOz 3gate pressure in PvP with 3 proxy pylons and it completely busts this build. The scouting probe I send at 14 can get in and really never die, usually leaving the sentries out of position, and any probe pulls make the stargate useless. Any guide for users of this build against the aggressive 3 gate would be fitting.
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On October 11 2012 02:17 Dubsy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 12:12 Alejandrisha wrote: vs 1 base colossus all-in ( 1 colossus no range backed with 4 gateways ), the best move from that position is actually make void rays and 1 immortal to go with your ffs. they have to only make stalkers to deal with your void to ensure the colo can do enough damage before the void ray(s) focus them down Any other thoughts on this? I've never found this to be the case. While its true that all their forward warp in will be stalkers, there will be very few in the original move out as the collosus+few sentries eat up tons of gas. With VRs you get to choose exactly one fight because if you don't kill him a 4 stalker warp in ends the game. If you're active like you should be with your phoenixes you can harass the collossus Alllllll the way from his robo to your base. There is no way you he has the stalker count to prevent it. I never ever lose to 1 base collosus if I open Phoenix. The left over energy can then be used to scoop up zealots and or stalkers. Just make sure to not burn it on probes if he's on 1 base. I'm not really an expert on phoenix vs collosus because most players simply cancel collosus once they scout phoenix... But if he for some reason did not do that (either because he just didn't or because you hide your phoenix) then I don't think robo is a very good response. Immortals aren't very useful vs the massive amount of zealots that comes along with this push. And while voidrays might be quite strong vs collosus they still take more dmg vs stalkers and are also far slower. I really think you can get along well with getting only phoenix.
I don't really agree with saving lifts tho.. The push is quite late and your prio is basically to snipe the few sentries + kill his collosus so you don't really need THAT many lifts in the end.
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On October 11 2012 02:17 Dubsy wrote: Hide nested quote - On July 31 2012 12:12 Alejandrisha wrote: vs 1 base colossus all-in ( 1 colossus no range backed with 4 gateways ), the best move from that position is actually make void rays and 1 immortal to go with your ffs. they have to only make stalkers to deal with your void to ensure the colo can do enough damage before the void ray(s) focus them down
Any other thoughts on this? I've never found this to be the case. While its true that all their forward warp in will be stalkers, there will be very few in the original move out as the collosus+few sentries eat up tons of gas. With VRs you get to choose exactly one fight because if you don't kill him a 4 stalker warp in ends the game. If you're active like you should be with your phoenixes you can harass the collossus Alllllll the way from his robo to your base. There is no way you he has the stalker count to prevent it.
I never ever lose to 1 base collosus if I open Phoenix. The left over energy can then be used to scoop up zealots and or stalkers. Just make sure to not burn it on probes if he's on 1 base. I'm not really an expert on phoenix vs collosus because most players simply cancel collosus once they scout phoenix... But if he for some reason did not do that (either because he just didn't or because you hide your phoenix) then I don't think robo is a very good response. Immortals aren't very useful vs the massive amount of zealots that comes along with this push. And while voidrays might be quite strong vs collosus they still take more dmg vs stalkers and are also far slower. I really think you can get along well with getting only phoenix.
I don't really agree with saving lifts tho.. The push is quite late and your prio is basically to snipe the few sentries + kill his collosus so you don't really need THAT many lifts in the end.
From personnal experience 1 base colossus is very week against 1 base phx,robo and 2 gates, it'S just a worst army composition then what you have, wich is phx,imo,stalker(few of them) and zlots army. Why ?? Because with your phx, if you are active enough with them, you should alway poke around is base, if the guys was greedy and didn't get enough stalker you can right off the bat snipe the first colossus that comes out wich is gg already But in the best case scenario for them it forces stalkers out wich are very week against your zlot imo comp, usually the colossus player will try to warp in a few zlot right before attaking(moving up your ramp) and from there, you lift is zlot with your phx(one by one, you should hav about 5 or 6 phx by then) Is zlot will melt, wich leaves him with stalker colossu, if he didn't get range you probably will be able to snipe is colossu with your imo, and even ig yo u can't the simple dps of your army is stronger if all is zlot disapear quick enough. The only way i have lost that fight in the past was at a choke, were the colossus were just doing so much dmg, and 2 FF could trap my army, so basicly just go meet him half way, and try to spread your zlots a little so they dont take extra dmg from those colossus, and it should be a super easy win for you
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