EPT
If you dont want to swap those locations, you could use the 8 key or y key like you do for other buildings right?
[G] TheCore - Advanced Keyboard Layout - Page 7
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emaster
United States32 Posts
If you dont want to swap those locations, you could use the 8 key or y key like you do for other buildings right? | ||
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ImmortalTofu
United States1254 Posts
On June 05 2012 08:57 emaster wrote: Build key is a bitch, especially when you add in the shifting. I would say that as protoss, I use the hotkeys for basic building and advanced building hotkeys wayyyy more than hold position and patrol hotkeys, even in my general army If you dont want to swap those locations, you could use the 8 key or y key like you do for other buildings right? I completely agree with this, going from build to shift is literally THE reason I'm going back to standard for now, or possibly to Jak righty | ||
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poeticEnnui
United States78 Posts
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bgalang92
United States155 Posts
I feel like the build-shift problem is solved with practice, and its a big problem you can use your pointer finger to press build then use your three remaining fingers to build whatever building you need, that way you can hold shift and build at the same time. I'd like to add something about the camera hotkeys. I feel it would be a good idea to remove the "V" key from your keyboard as well to make finding the "b" key easier for your pinky  | ||
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Wintertime
Canada64 Posts
On June 05 2012 06:19 JaKaTaK wrote: Pressing ctrl+shift is a completely different feeling/motion than hitting just one or the other. I don't think there will be a problem once it is learned. P.S. Good Call. I agree, pressing ctrl+shift is a completely different feeling. I tried it out for a few games and hated it. I've been using camera hotkeys with just ctrl since I start playing, and it feels much quicker than covering both buttons. My solution was to actually make base cams create/jump alt/ctrl POIJK, and for my O and P ctrl groups, to create, I use ctrl+shift. I don't mind, I can just shift to add units, does the same thing, and I don't have to modify my hatch/queen hotkeys too often. | ||
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SumHarvest
United States15 Posts
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Abort Retry Fail
2636 Posts
I think I'll be using this. Thanks again. | ||
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wc4482
United States45 Posts
On June 05 2012 10:24 SumHarvest wrote: I personally don't think this is still an efficient hotkeys really. I know that people are trying to find ways to make it easier to play and make it so that's there isn't very much strain on the hand but I'm sure that people can find a better way to do this. I don't know what people you are referring to, but fox and Jak seem to be the only "people" that are spending significant amounts of time on custom Hotkeys. Maybe you could elaborate how it could be more efficient or why you think they aren't efficient | ||
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Larias
United States75 Posts
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poeticEnnui
United States78 Posts
On June 05 2012 10:24 SumHarvest wrote: I personally don't think this is still an efficient hotkeys really. I know that people are trying to find ways to make it easier to play and make it so that's there isn't very much strain on the hand but I'm sure that people can find a better way to do this. When JaK (and Foxy) say "efficient," they mean _time-efficient_. The keystroke orders for the various commands are the fastest possible with a conventional keyboard. The point isn't to make it "easier" nor "less strenuous" although the latter comes as free lunch; the point is to minimize the time and distance between keystrokes. I'm pretty convinced that there's no better way to do it sans the optimizations that come out of beta testing. Oh, and I managed to beat my Platinum friend with the layout. MOVING UP IN THE WORLD! | ||
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xavra41
United States220 Posts
On June 05 2012 03:03 JaKaTaK wrote: "nobody is ever going to be microing with that many keys (control groups)" We respectfully disagree with your opinion. In fact, I believe that many pros already use that many control groups. "Also the spacebar, ctrl, and shift keys are much harder to press" I think you may have your homekeys wrong if you think shift and ctrl are harder to hit. Your thumb should be resting on the shift key, making it one of the 5 easiest keys to press in the layout, with ctrl very close by. As far as the spacebar is concerned, we took the thumb which had 1-2 keys on a regular layout and gave it 5 keys instead, spreading out the load of keys to press between all 5 of your fingers more evenly than before. This will reduce strain and increase speed once you learn it. I don't understand the camera keys/ the camera keys are hard I will make a video explaining how to work the camera keys along with how to use the layered camera Inject method (as these 2 things go hand in hand). Basically you have 5 cameras for bases (these are set with alt because you will want to center your base before setting the camera anyway, saving you time) 3 cameras are for w/e else you want to use it for: ramp cam, creep cam, chrono cam, drop cam, cam cam, can can... you get the point. (these are set with shift and will not center on your selection) I would really like to see a replay with somebody microing with 8-9 control groups. I have watched many pro streams and I have never seen anybody come close to that number. I didn't mean the spacebar, ctrl, and shift were hard to press just harder than standard. Since this is supposed to be much more efficient I don't see how it could end up worse. The camera keys are way harder than they should be especially when they need to be super easily accessible. The combination of keys that you have press is always harder than a single key. I use your old hotkeys and i rest my hand on asdf. hitting 1-3 take me to my camera saves and its super fast and ez. I was just saying that I don't see why you sacrificed some of the most crucial elements for extra hotkey space. | ||
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ShiniSama
United States103 Posts
Great job on making all this seems to be really cool. I would definitely test it out if I were able. | ||
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Terranist
United States2496 Posts
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asdir
Germany39 Posts
German Core beta (right-handed with 4th and 5th mouse-button) It would be neat if another German could test if this works and report back. Outdated!!! Please use this Comments: I have a UK-version of SC2 and am not sure if that screwed up anything. Strangely, for example, the file said that fungals were on "Slash", but SC2-Hotkeys said they were on "#". However, the key that has the slash on the American keyboard has the minus on the German keyboard, not the hash. I put it on minus, of course. Should not be a problem, just weirded me out. Preferred bindings for some unimportant keys were not in the Spreadsheet provided by Jakatak/Foxy, among them the key for the move-command. I just put them on some key on the left side of the keyboard. Cameras are on IJKM; as well as POIJÖ. So either way if you prefer the original setup (I do) or the new method, you can use both. Alternate bindings make it possible. ;-) | ||
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
This was a small oversight. It is true that it is more efficient to combo different unit structures when you can hold down shift the whole time. However, the / and . keys cannot be easily used as control groups, because adding to a control group requires shift as well. You could press shift with the thumb, / with the index finger and then follow up with the specific building command on your ring or pinky finger. But moving the build keys to the top right corner (which is the only other option I see) would only fix this slight inefficiency to create a larger one. Still this is something that I am actively looking for a creative solution for. If anyone comes up with a solution, please share it with us. This is only an issue for Protoss IMO, since Terran can simply box a couple workers, click over, press I to return cargo, and then quickly start building things then shift-click back, while Zerg only needs a single worker the majority of the time, and even then, their workers are sacrificed when the structure is started. | ||
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Ejohrik
Sweden219 Posts
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VanGarde
Sweden755 Posts
Here are my first set of conclusions: - It is really comfortable for the hand once you get used to it. - While my macro currently sucks due to transitioning, I can see how having almost all of my macro on the JIOP keys on which I rest my fingers will in the long run actually improve my macro by reminding me to constantly macro. - It is weird and awesome to have so many control groups within such easy reach, frankly I can hardly figure out enough stuff to use all of the control group buttons. I have seen people on tl talk about how it is useless because no one uses that many control groups. Well I would argue that no one uses that many control groups BECAUSE they are playing standard and it is just not smooth. You don’t need harass control groups to micro your drop and the push at the front at the same time, but guess what it will still give you an edge and now you actually can do it comfortably if you want. I will definitely force myself to use all of the control groups in time. - I am somewhat apprehensive about going into unit control because what unit you put on what control group, combined with which hotkey is used for which spell is very very integral especially for terran that is so micro intensive in the late game. I imagine that for army control I might have to do some very slight rearrangement of stuff just to make it as effective as possible. | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
On June 05 2012 07:58 herrcombs wrote: This is such an awesome fix. For one, it will force me to properly inject with queens by first hitting O, then I, then holding shift+ctrl, P click, O click, I click, etc. Also, it really simplifies setting up hatches because it's that much more intuitive. Thanks for your hard work on this! P.S. I am also changing my "morph drone" command to I and "morph overlord" to J. In the early game, it is too easy to accidentally morph extra overlords, and in the midgame it's the same way with extra queens. This switch fixes both issues pretty nicely =) A very interesting fix, do you really make less accidental units now? Has anyone else used this fix and it solved their problems? On June 05 2012 08:51 bgalang92 wrote: I'm having trouble actually using CTRL+SHIFT everytime I need to recall my bases... I'm switching recall to Alt and Create to ALT-SHIFT. OneBaseKing I''m mid-masters Toss and I'm having a great time. The potential of this system once it is learned is just amazing. FoxyMayhem had some good explanations of how beneficial this kind of layout could be for Toss, same thing applys to the other races. Create as Alt+Shift is insanely uncomfortable, although you will rarely be making the locations and much more often recalling them... Still thinking about this one. On June 05 2012 10:17 Wintertime wrote: I agree, pressing ctrl+shift is a completely different feeling. I tried it out for a few games and hated it. I've been using camera hotkeys with just ctrl since I start playing, and it feels much quicker than covering both buttons. My solution was to actually make base cams create/jump alt/ctrl POIJK, and for my O and P ctrl groups, to create, I use ctrl+shift. I don't mind, I can just shift to add units, does the same thing, and I don't have to modify my hatch/queen hotkeys too often. I got so excited when I read this fix, but I have found an issue: This does not work with the layered camera inject method. Any ideas for a fix? On June 05 2012 14:40 Terranist wrote: excellent work.trying the lefty setup and will report back when i get used to it. Yea! I'm not the only Lefty :D On June 05 2012 21:55 VanGarde wrote: Going into the second day of theCore transitioning now: http://sc2vanguard.wordpress.com/ Here are my first set of conclusions: - It is really comfortable for the hand once you get used to it. - While my macro currently sucks due to transitioning, I can see how having almost all of my macro on the JIOP keys on which I rest my fingers will in the long run actually improve my macro by reminding me to constantly macro. - It is weird and awesome to have so many control groups within such easy reach, frankly I can hardly figure out enough stuff to use all of the control group buttons. I have seen people on tl talk about how it is useless because no one uses that many control groups. Well I would argue that no one uses that many control groups BECAUSE they are playing standard and it is just not smooth. You don’t need harass control groups to micro your drop and the push at the front at the same time, but guess what it will still give you an edge and now you actually can do it comfortably if you want. I will definitely force myself to use all of the control groups in time. - I am somewhat apprehensive about going into unit control because what unit you put on what control group, combined with which hotkey is used for which spell is very very integral especially for terran that is so micro intensive in the late game. I imagine that for army control I might have to do some very slight rearrangement of stuff just to make it as effective as possible. Firstly, thanks for doing this. I very much agree with your 3rd statement here. As far as unit control goes, we tried to make all the combinations of units and their abilities line up as smoothly as possible. For example, spell casters like templar and infestors go on L because as you reach down for L with your middle finger, your ring finger naturally slides down inbetween the K key and the I key, which are 2 of the 3 spell keys along with / which is pressed with the thumb. We strongly suggest going with our setup described in the Data Document so that we can receive feedback on it and make the layout better :D On June 05 2012 11:30 xavra41 wrote: I would really like to see a replay with somebody microing with 8-9 control groups. I have watched many pro streams and I have never seen anybody come close to that number. I didn't mean the spacebar, ctrl, and shift were hard to press just harder than standard. Since this is supposed to be much more efficient I don't see how it could end up worse. The camera keys are way harder than they should be especially when they need to be super easily accessible. The combination of keys that you have press is always harder than a single key. I use your old hotkeys and i rest my hand on asdf. hitting 1-3 take me to my camera saves and its super fast and ez. I was just saying that I don't see why you sacrificed some of the most crucial elements for extra hotkey space. I totally miscounted when I said 8-9. Sorry about that, I meant to say 7-8. In any case, I'll assume your question still stands with 7-8. I would like to see those replays too. If anyone (especially you dark grid users) would send some first person VODs my way demonstrating this, I would really appreciate it. (PM me). There will be a video detailing how using this many CGs is useful in the future, for now I'll try to rustle up the Darkgrid one for you :D Ctrl and shift are easier to press in TheCore than in standard. I don't see how you could think that shift could be in an easier position than right under your thumb, I think we're having a mis-communication somewhere. As for the spacebar. We moved the thumb from having 1-2keys to press, to 5. I don't see how this is a move that makes TheCore less efficient, but one that makes it more efficient. As far as cameras go, its faster to hit ctrl+shift+J in TheCore than it is to reach up to 1,2,3 on JaKaTaK Righty. We are looking at making the non-base locations (set with shift) A little closer. At least one of them. The issue is, that replay files do not contain the information about how many times a location key is set or recalled, they are all "Camera Movement Events" so we can't know the numbers on that. This makes it incredibly difficult to place the camera keys in their most efficient positions. I'm pretty sure we will be moving at least one camera to a closer location in place of an ability. After hitting a camera key, you will be either clicking, or pressing a control group (force fielding a ramp, setting a rally point, chronoboosting, spreading creep, etc...) To avoid repetitive finger use, which is inefficient, the camera keys are best hit with the pinky and ring fingers, meaning that they would have to take precedence over an ability, or over multiple abilities. (looking at Patrol right now). I absolutely hate going by feel, but in this case, I see no other option, unless of course we can find a way to analyze, en mass, how many times, on average, in a professional match, the location keys are set and recalled. Videos will be coming regarding shift-queuing construction. For now, refer to my previous post about how to do it. I am having a hard time understanding what many of you mean by your criticisms of this issue. It is possible to shift-queue building construction with this layout you just have to switch up the order of your button combinations. The issue is that the build keys must be hit in combination, and can't be put on the ability side of the layout because it will create many inefficient and uncomfortable button combinations. Any solutions to this problem would be greatly appreciated. | ||
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poeticEnnui
United States78 Posts
On June 06 2012 01:19 JaKaTaK wrote: A very interesting fix, do you really make less accidental units now? Has anyone else used this fix and it solved their problems? +1, this is a great fix. I only spam "Select Larvae" in the beginning of the game when the units I need to make are...drones! On June 06 2012 01:19 JaKaTaK wrote: Create as Alt+Shift is insanely uncomfortable, although you will rarely be making the locations and much more often recalling them... Still thinking about this one. My vote goes against the Alt+Shift change. Setting the cameras is something you want to do fast and instinctively -- like rallying the base after making it or adding it to the base hotkey. Alt+Shift is much slower and much, much clunkier than Alt alone. My reasoning for this: whenever you plop down a base, there are things you instinctively "just do," and setting their rallies, adding them to control groups, and setting their cameras should be some of those things. Those things should happen as fast as possible, because one of the "key ideas" of SC2 is to expand while pressuring -- i.e. you can't let base-setting affect your micro of that pressure. Ctrl+Shift to recall, on the other hand, can be pressed quickly and instinctively once learned while keeping the rest of the fingers in their natural position. Stretching the thumb for Alt+Shift isn't nearly as natural, and curls your "home" fingers awkwardly. | ||
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bgalang92
United States155 Posts
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