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Doomaflatchi
United States5 Posts
Also, +1 on moving Cancel to the left arrow key - reachable, but not accidental, and not near anything else. Foxy and JaK, thank you SO MUCH for your work on this. Even the undertaking of such a project is amazing, and you guys should be proud of what you've achieved. Top marks!  | ||
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Mahtasooma
Germany475 Posts
for example combat upgrades are from left to right "J # I", whereas upgrades on e.g. infestation pit "I J". Please elaborate what's the logic behind this. | ||
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Cortza
South Africa328 Posts
I use the claw grip right hand for terrans, and I would suggest moving the j-i-o-p keys down to n-k-l-; or m-k-l-; since I find it harder to reach down to the m , . keys than up to higher ones. I think the pinky finger is partly responsible for this since it's so short. | ||
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poeticEnnui
United States78 Posts
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Furbie
United Kingdom12 Posts
On June 04 2012 20:35 poeticEnnui wrote: 'nother quick feedback: as Zerg, spamming "I" will make extra overlords, much like in BW, spamming "S" would make extra scourge. It's definitely a habit worth breaking, but it's also probably the reason there won't ever be another Zerg unit bound to "S". Stephano has actually changed his hotkey for drones to a, and his larvae to a. So to make drones he just has to hold a, which I find pretty cool. | ||
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VanGarde
Sweden755 Posts
On June 04 2012 07:36 Sickan wrote: I've adjusted the hotkeys for a Swedish/Nordic keyboard; theCore RRM Mouse Nordic.SC2Hotkeys (I changed Cancel from F5 to our ' aswell, the key the US-International keyboard doesn't have) My notes I made while adjusting: + Show Spoiler + Nordic http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/KB_Sweden.svg/800px-KB_Sweden.svg.png + = Equals ´ = BracketOpen å = BracketClose ¨ = SemiColon ö = Grave ä = Apostrophe ' = Slash , = Comma . = Period - = Minus US http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/22/KB_US-International.svg/800px-KB_US-International.svg.png + = Minus ´ = Equals å = BracketOpen ¨ = BracketClose ö = SemiColon ä = Apostrophe ' = N/A , = Comma . = Period - = Slash Changes in .SC2Hotkeys Minus = Equals Equals = BracketOpen BracketOpen = BracketClose BracketClose = SemiColon SemiColon = Grave Apostrophe = Apostrophe N/A = N/A Comma = Comma Period = Period Slash = Minus I don't suppose you made an adjustment for the non mouse version? On second thought, your altered version does not actually seem to be correct, you even got control groups bound to mouse buttons. | ||
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Crugio
Australia45 Posts
Pity Shift key in game can't be changed. So my setup probably can't be used in tourneys, but oh well. | ||
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theolysis
United States107 Posts
On June 04 2012 12:24 emaster wrote: Righty Palm grip here. I just played one game with it, and it was a terrible experience. switching over to a new layout is kinda weird, especially since this one is on the opposite side of the keyboard. I kept wanting to move my hand back to the other side. You said that would feel weird, so okay. I have one big complaint though... I really feel like I was thrown under the bus. I have never really changed anything with hotkeys, and I haven't paid much attention to them before so maybe thats why I am having this problem but... I didn't know how to do anything that wasn't on the button part of the screen. I started off with my fingers on the "k l ;" keys to begin with until i kept pressing those "j i o p" keys often enough to just leave my fingers there. Nothing actually tells me what butons to push for stuff like setting control groups and base cameras and shit. I actually still don't know how. What I had to do was hover my mouse over the control group button in the game for it to tell me how to do the control group. Eventually I figured out how to get the second macro group by hovering over the 2nd control group button, and then I eventually made a third control group for a blob, but it really didn't help. I feel like the only way I'm going to get those kind of hotkeys is to go through the hotkey screen and write them down on a seperate piece of paper one by one. Worth it, but I think it would be much better if you made a second video or a better explanation of what to do. I guess I had high expectations because when I saw jakataks first thread it seemed quite clear, and now it's just leaving me confused. I can't say that the layout is amazing, because im not really qualified to say so. I will however put the effort to transition into it in good faith because you guys seem pretty legit. I hope you guys don't take my complaints personally! It seemed like you guys are pretty interested in constructive criticism so I'm hoping you take it as such. Even more though, I'm hoping you guys can update it and make it easier for retards like me I think the layout has a lot of potential, and I excited to see you guys keep up your good work in the future! You might want to check out the diagrams on the original post. For right-handed claw/fingertip, JIOP is indeed the rest position, and control groups are color coded and everything. Reading the previous comments in this thread would also probably answer most, if not all, of your other questions. I'd also like to say that so far my experience with this hotkey layout has been very positive. It actually feels rather natural to me; the keyboard rotation makes it so that the keys fit comfortably under the natural curve of my fingers. | ||
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asdir
Germany39 Posts
Also: I like to put an active tumor in a CG. Any recommendations which one to use? (I am aware, of course, that I could use any. Just wondering if you gave that technique a thought.) Keep up the good work. After a while (closer tp 80 than 50 games though) I was very satisfied and comfortable with Darkgrid and expect to be it with Core, too. :-) | ||
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VanGarde
Sweden755 Posts
I will try to document as much as possible about how it feels to learn this setup as well as my own opinion on how I like it once I get used to it more. | ||
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bgalang92
United States155 Posts
On June 04 2012 18:06 Doomaflatchi wrote: Out of curiosity, what is the reason for not setting the layered camera keys to J-I-O-P-M-K-L-;? This would allow you to roll your fingers more, which is a more natural movement, and also reduces three stepping-movements down the keyboard to two. Is there a reason I'm missing for not using your middle and pointer finger for cameras? I'm really feeling this. I found the old darkgrid/Jakatak camera keys much more comfortable to use. Also, +1 on moving Cancel to the left arrow key - reachable, but not accidental, and not near anything else. Thanks! I'm still unsure if I prefer spacebar better ;_; | ||
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Lethargica
Sweden5 Posts
On June 05 2012 00:53 VanGarde wrote: Right, I am going to give this a serious attempt now after fiddling with the nordic keyboard version for a good hour. I run a practice blog following my practice routine and thoughts as I try to make the leap from semi casual diamond player to top master and I will be be updating on there regarding my transition to core as well @ http://sc2vanguard.wordpress.com/ I will try to document as much as possible about how it feels to learn this setup as well as my own opinion on how I like it once I get used to it more. Mind sharing your modifed layout? (sorry if i missed a dl link on your blog or anything  ) | ||
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VanGarde
Sweden755 Posts
On June 05 2012 02:31 Lethargica wrote: Mind sharing your modifed layout? (sorry if i missed a dl link on your blog or anything )Ah yes ofcourse. Here is the Swedified version of the no mouse hotkey setup. Nothing is changed, the only thing I have done is to correct the far right keys to be correct even on a Swedish keyboard. http://www.filebox.com/us7vskoayugg | ||
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bgalang92
United States155 Posts
EDIT: haha actually kinda sketchy. I'm accidentally reassigning the O and P hotkeys more than I'd like. Nevermind. | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
I need a masters/grandmasters terran with experience using different stutter step micro techniques to explain which is best and why as well as the exact button sequence to perform this optimal stutter step. Thank you in advance, I really want to get this one squared away. Will this have graphics like Darkgrid? Yes, it already does. The graphics are in the "select your layout" spoilers. For now we only have graphics for right handed mouse users, but in the future we will have a more comprehensive set of graphics. I didn't know where to put my hands! Why wasn't this in the OP? The homekeys are outlined in black on the layout graphics, I will edit so that it actually says the homekeys above/under each layout to make it more clear. (also I show the homekeys in the first explanation video) "nobody is ever going to be microing with that many keys (control groups)" We respectfully disagree with your opinion. In fact, I believe that many pros already use that many control groups. "Also the spacebar, ctrl, and shift keys are much harder to press" I think you may have your homekeys wrong if you think shift and ctrl are harder to hit. Your thumb should be resting on the shift key, making it one of the 5 easiest keys to press in the layout, with ctrl very close by. As far as the spacebar is concerned, we took the thumb which had 1-2 keys on a regular layout and gave it 5 keys instead, spreading out the load of keys to press between all 5 of your fingers more evenly than before. This will reduce strain and increase speed once you learn it. I don't understand the camera keys/ the camera keys are hard I will make a video explaining how to work the camera keys along with how to use the layered camera Inject method (as these 2 things go hand in hand). Basically you have 5 cameras for bases (these are set with alt because you will want to center your base before setting the camera anyway, saving you time) 3 cameras are for w/e else you want to use it for: ramp cam, creep cam, chrono cam, drop cam, cam cam, can can... you get the point. (these are set with shift and will not center on your selection) EMP vs Snipe (and other ability decisions) Great question. Basically the 3 main unit abilities are IK/. I is given to the most used ability, K to the second most used ability, / to the third most used ability. However, because / cannot be easily shift queued, any non-shift queued ability will go onto /. With the Ghost this was particularly difficult because there are situations to shift queue pretty much any of its abilities. We made the compromise of putting I on emp and / on snipe because of the insta-snipe trick you can do with ghosts. Any ideas to improve the ghosts commands? Why is cancel on F5? Cancel is meant to be hit with your ring finger (not pinky) We found that keeping only your thumb as an anchor and reaching up to F5 with the ring finger was the most ergonomic move. I am currently deliberating moving the cancel button closer, but the reason why it is so far away is that accidentally hitting cancel is probably one of the most devastating accidental commands a player can press. I am considering other options at the moment for the next patch, any ideas with an explanation of why it is a better choice would be very helpful. Why not do IJKM, for base location hotkeys? Fucking awesome idea PoeticEnnui. I am absolutely changing this right away. Definitely easier/better to press. For Kollin Use the version without extra mouse buttons dude! Sorry for not being clear about this in the OP. Why not do JIOPK for base location hotkeys? I would love to, but O and P already use 2/3 modifiers (Ctrl, Shift, and Alt) for control groups and we need 2-3 modifiers to have base cams (one to set, one to select, with alternate 2 in combo to select for larva inject if your are playing zerg) Either way it doesn't work out. If we were allowed more than 3 modifiers I would have a fucking layering field day... but alas... What is the logic? I think that this is an interesting question, because I think that using M for Marine just because it begins with the letter M is not very logical. It makes it easy to learn which keys do what, but if you follow that "logic" you end up with the broodwar keyboard layout... and I don't think its necessary for me to go through all the inefficiencies of that layout. Check out the Data Document if you haven't already. What we did was match the keys that are fastest to press with the commands most frequently executed. Now that's what I call logic. :D As far as making learning easier, I will be releasing a mnemonics video that should help, but only once the beta is over (to avoid confusion with keys that may change) Map Presence? Basically it means Harass or free control group to do as you see fit. We were thinking it would be a great place to put a zergling run-by or something like that. Map Presence/Harrass/Obs keys are very flexible and should serve you in any way you see fit. Nice question, thanks :D to VanGarde That blog sounds cool. Thanks for sharing! Definitely feel free to post tips and tricks here that you think are really helpful and I'll put the ones I like in the OP :D Concerning shift building This was a small oversight. It is true that it is more efficient to combo different unit structures when you can hold down shift the whole time. However, the / and . keys cannot be easily used as control groups, because adding to a control group requires shift as well. You could press shift with the thumb, / with the index finger and then follow up with the specific building command on your ring or pinky finger. But moving the build keys to the top right corner (which is the only other option I see) would only fix this slight inefficiency to create a larger one. Still this is something that I am actively looking for a creative solution for. If anyone comes up with a solution, please share it with us. Hope that helped explain some things. Big thanks to PoeticEnnui for finding a better way to do the cameras. And thanks to everyone adding to the discussion. | ||
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bgalang92
United States155 Posts
Why not do IJKM, for base location hotkeys? Fucking awesome idea PoeticEnnui. I am absolutely changing this right away. Definitely easier/better to press. Aren't camera hotkeys already on IJKM? | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
On June 05 2012 03:33 bgalang92 wrote: The building queue problem can be solved by learning a new build sequence. You don't have to hold shift the entire time you are queuing buildings. You can select the building you want, then hold shift. When you need to build a different building, remove your thumb from shift before you set down your last building. Building without holding shift brings you back to the "main menu," where you can select your select your next building, then repeat the process adding to the queue. Aren't camera hotkeys already on IJKM? the "," key is now a base location cam instead of the "N" key. As far as building queue goes, the issue is that you have to press shift multiple times which is a minor inefficiency. It isn't that its not possible, but that it is slightly slower. EDIT: We are working on a new way to do the base location cams, there might be a way to make JIOPK the 5 camera keys after all! | ||
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
I will make a video explaining how to work the camera keys along with how to use the layered camera Inject method (as these 2 things go hand in hand). Basically you have 5 cameras for bases (these are set with alt because you will want to center your base before setting the camera anyway, saving you time) 3 cameras are for w/e else you want to use it for: ramp cam, creep cam, chrono cam, drop cam, cam cam, can can... you get the point. (these are set with shift and will not center on your selection) This works great for Zerg, but for Terran and Protoss, as well as trying to set rally camera hotkeys, it is a nuisance. The reason that it's like that for Terran and Protoss is because centering the camera on a CC/Nexus often leaves a lot of dead space, which means you can't see much of your base other than your CC by using the camera hotkey, making it harder to build additional barracks and gateways. It's also easier to set initial camera hotkeys at the beginning of the game, and binding alt to both center selection and create camera hotkeys makes that impossible for anything other than your main base cam.Great question. Basically the 3 main unit abilities are IK/. I is given to the most used ability, K to the second most used ability, / to the third most used ability. However, because / cannot be easily shift queued, any non-shift queued ability will go onto /. With the Ghost this was particularly difficult because there are situations to shift queue pretty much any of its abilities. We made the compromise of putting I on emp and / on snipe because of the insta-snipe trick you can do with ghosts. Any ideas to improve the ghosts commands? About shift building, it's not very efficient to make some buildings using the thumb to press the / and or . keys, and then use that on control, and then shift all with the same finger. This kind of thing I think was overlooked a bit during development, and you see that problem a lot with this layout. I suggest changing around the roles of alt, control, and spacebar with the camera hotkeys. How exactly this would be done I don't know, but I do know it exists. | ||
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bgalang92
United States155 Posts
If it were really an issue to someone they could learn to hold shift with the thumb and press"/" with their pointer finger. This would allow them to hold shift the entire time and isn't all that difficult to do. | ||
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bgalang92
United States155 Posts
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