On June 03 2012 10:01 IlK wrote:Nice first release, the only thing im gonna change for me is j with h i guess and then give it a quick try tomorrow  For the qwertz shit ill just use one of my keyboards with english layout+english at win7...im in NO mood to change all those keys atm and im in no mood to code a script for it, but since uv got urself sombody that can code he can do it in 30minutes and then u can go over all your 48layouts to change for different keyboard-layouts
Voltaire is a busy busy guy, and is already working on another program to help us optimize efficiency. We don't really have time to make versions for other keyboards, but if anyone gets around to it, I would really appreciate the file so I can link it in the OP
On June 03 2012 10:50 iokke wrote:
Nice job, I'll give it an honest shot though im not digging using right half of keyboard and having to move the keyboard and chair in my case (small desk) to get into comfy position to play sc2; and having to reverse it for everything else.
If this doesn't work out I'll probably go back to trying to learn original Jakatak. I know there's a difference between the two, but do you think there's a really large difference or the original layout is pretty close to this, just not fully optimized?
Or perhaps would I be better off trying to transfer this layout to the left side of they keyboard as much as I can instead of using the original Jakatak?
Thanks in advance
The reason why the layout is on the right side of the keyboard is so that the thumb can press the shift key and other neighboring keys. This is the main difference, I think the original JaKaTaK layout is best for laptop users without an external keyboard. Maybe my next big project will be to add a laptop keyboard compatible version to TheCore... 
On June 03 2012 14:58 Alacar wrote:
How do you inject with this layout?
On June 03 2012 15:18 herrcombs wrote:
I've been playing around with this layout today (righty no mouse), and while it feels completely foreign to what I'm used to, I think it has great potential. Can't wait until it feels a little more familiar.
Alacar, I also play Zerg, and injecting isn't too difficult although it takes a bit to get used to: first set camera locations for each hatchery using the map location hotkeys (set using alt + I, J, K, N, M). All queens are hotkeyed to O. When you want to inject, hit O to select queens, then ctrl-I to jump to your first hatch, hit I to inject, left click on hatch 1, ctrl-J, I, click on hatch 2, ctrl-K, I, click on hatch 3, and so on.
Also, I would like to say that having each hatch on a camera location is pretty awesome in terms of maintaining proper drone saturation, researching upgrades, reacting to attacks, etc etc. This new layout offers a TON of control over your units and bases, I cannot emphasize that enough.
EDIT: I typed a few wrong keys in there for the inject method. Alt sets the camera locations, while Ctrl jumps to them.
If you hold shift, after pressing the inject button, you can avoid pressing the I key for every inject. That is why the alternate binds for the base location keys are Ctrl+shift+letter that way you can continue holding down the shift to keep the inject spell on as well as moving from base to base. The sequence is as follows:
set all injecting Queens to "O"
set all Hatches to "P"
Locations are set to IJKNM (alternating fingers)
O, I, Hold Shift+Control,
I click
J click
K click
N click
M click
It doubles as a camera for worker transfers and for when you get dropped. Also, a huge advantage, is that you really only need 3-4 queens injecting (this is not only our opinion, but the opinion of masters who have worked with us). Using the base camera in this case forces a zerg player to go through all non injecting hatcheries before reaching the ones that need injecting. With a layered inject method, you only select the bases you are injecting at, giving a lot more flexibility and control to the player.
I will be making a video as soon as I can describing the inject method. For now, I hope my explanation is enough.
On June 03 2012 17:18 DanceSC wrote:
The chrono took a while to get use to, one thing I found frustrating is when I select a hotkey group by mistake, and build a unit when I meant to make the army attack click, or attack click a building when I meant to chrono it. Also the build hotkey and the shift key too close makes chaining different buildings in a shift sequence too difficult. The thumb has to switch between them too often. And when I do build a unit by mistake the cancel hotkey is off on f5.
Suggestions: move the esc hotkey closer, put the 'w' or 'select warpgate' hotkey in a more convenient location. 6 is very ackward and out of the way. move the build key up one. (Will allow me to hold shift the entire time i build a pylon-nexus-pylon in the scenario where I would take a third/fourth/etc
As far as going back and forth between shift when building multiple buildings, this is something we did struggle with. The issue is that the build basic and build advanced keys must be pressed with either the thumb or index finger for optimum efficiency in order to combo optimally with the closest 7-8 ability keys. I will definitely take a closer look at this to see if there is something better we can do.
Based on our research, tabbed production is superior to using the warpgate key. We put it at 6 because that was the closest semi-reasonable key, but really our intention is to never use it. Having the Gateways/Warpgates, Stargates, and Robo facilty all on one keys saves a metric shit-ton of space. Without doing this, every single key would have to be moved out by 1-4 spaces, which is a huge efficiency loss. If your style is to use the warpgate button instead of adding gateways to your macro 2 control group, then change it, but I can promise you that there will be an overall loss in efficiency and speed as a result.
Cancel is another thing that has been in flux, we've gone from 7 or 6 or G to F5. In the end, when you're playing well, the cancel function should not be used often, only in specific circumstances where you scout something and make a snap change to your build, cancel a nexus or a warp prism or something like that. This layout does not account for mistakes. IMO its almost like a reminder "do it right the first time" for me if I over-queue or build something I did not mean to build. In the beginning, there will be many mistakes. I believe that once you have taught your fingers to follow orders properly, you will find much less uses for the Cancel Command.
I would say:
TheCore > JaKaTaK Righty/Darkgrid > Grid > Standard > Classic
But you got the idea. Also, if you're into keyboard layouts, DVORAK is definitely not the most efficient one. Check this shit out:
http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?full_optimization
Down with the Imperial Measurment System! and while we're at it, Fuck Daylight Savings Time and Time Zones. Seriously. They aren't even straight up and down lines based on the sun in relation to the earth, they're based on how countries happened to draw their borders and other silly shit. Make time Global, and make it the same all the year round.
On June 03 2012 19:34 Fencer710 wrote:
Oh my god, it's finally released. I'm so downloading this and training my TvZ build in Yabot until I can hit max in 14 minutes while breaking that up with bits of random micro challenge and micro tournament.
Although, wouldn't it be hard to spam hotkeys when both your CC and all your Production are on the mouse? I mean, you can spam army and harass hotkeys too, but Production and your CC are the ones you kindof need to spam, if you know what I mean.
EDIT: I love the video. Do I still have to take out the windows key if I have a gaming keyboard that has a little switch to disable it? I like how it looks and don't want it to look deformed.
If you aren't down with the mouse buttons, don't use them. I don't. Its really just a matter of preference and we wanted to be able to make a layout for each play-style.
The point of taking out the keys is so that the shift, ., /, and z keys are easier to hit with the thumb, I was not very clear on that particular take of the tutorial video, (took a bunch of takes) I will definitely add it to the FAQ, and maybe rerecord the video...
On June 03 2012 19:43 bgalang92 wrote:
Been practicing for a few hours, starting to be able to build stuff normally, but my expansion shift queue of buildings is still pretty slow.
I'm having a lot of trouble accurately hitting my control groups around my macro key, but I'm getting there =D
JaKaTaK, I'm just wondering, what is the key difference between theCore and the original layout and Darkgrid? Besides the ergonomic factor and key priority that you implemented after starting.
The biggest difference between JaKaTaK Righty/Darkgrid and TheCore is putting the shift key underneath your thumb. It is the most pressed key in the game (according to our data) and deserves a home key. Because it is a modifier and is used in combination a lot, the thumb is the perfect digit to put it under.
On June 03 2012 19:54 StatixEx wrote:
with the popping out the keys, that looked like tha marauder . . . it has a gaming mode no where it makes these keys not work . . then theres an option to turn this off in the game so if you dont want to blind ursleves . . use this
i think im missing the point here can someone help me realise the potential of these (ive read all of the notes), ive remapped a few of the keys in my game already . ., it looks like im doing the same thing as the core is demonstrating but all this has done is put it on the right of the keyboard instead? i have instant access to keys 1-5 (then the keys below up the the space bar which i can hit without looking without ever making mistakes) and my little finger is anchored to caps (which i rebound 8 to) i have insta access to ctrl and shift with little finger
Please someone help me understand where the benefits are cos im all for something that will make me improve . . big believer in the 1 step back to go 3 steps forward kind of thing
Popping out keys is so that you can press the shift key easier with your thumb. My last layout "JaKaTaK Righty" (shitty name, I know) increased APM for some players as much as 300% (100 to 300). As far as inefficiencies with your layout compared to this one, is that shift is used so much, pressing it with your little finger, and having to reach to press it on top of that, is a big inefficiency. Definitely take a look at the documents of data and process that are linked in the OP if you need more details. We tried to keep the main OP nice and short.
On June 03 2012 23:26 YouthSC wrote:
As zerg, if you're only going to have one hotkey for the queens, the best inject method is the backspace method. You probably want to use backspace, or maybe a different one...
I really dislike not being able to hotkey the queens individually though, as many people do that. This layout is not my cup of tea, but I'm sure some people will find it comfortable! Good job!
We respectfully disagree with your assessment that the best inject method is the backspace method. I will work on a video as soon as I can to explain/show exactly why that is.
On June 04 2012 00:11 poeticEnnui wrote:
Quick feedback:
- Drop creep tumor is "K," propagate creep tumor is "I." It's a lot easier to remember and internalize when they're both the same key (C/C vanilla). Small thing, maybe not entirely consequential, but a thing nonetheless.
- When injecting, it's more natural for me to go "I, J, K, M, ," as opposed to "I, J, K, N, M" for the base cameras. I don't have small hands, but hitting the "N" with my pinky isn't comfortable.
EDIT:
also, I've created a channel "thecore" on the NA server for anyone who wants to practice. Picking this up is difficult. ._.
Firstly, Thanks so much for creating that channel! What an excellent idea. When I have time I will definitely pop in to talk with people who have questions about how certain things work out!
We couldn't find a better set of keys for the job, N is definitely the least comfortable IMO as well, but with practice it shouldn't be much of a problem (there are much less comfortable things on other layouts) If you can make another key work that is more comfortable than N, we'd love to hear about it. (non-sarcasm, it would actually be great)
As far as making things "easier to remember" we did not keep that in mind when designing the layout. For JaKaTaK Righty I did that, but for this one, we went purely on data and efficiency. In time you will learn to use I for creep tumor. It is 4-5 times faster to hit than K is, and will speed up your creep spread mechanics considerably.
I will also, among all of these other things, be working on a mnemonic guide to the core to help with learning once the beta is over and we release the full version. Until then, I would strongly suggest keeping the spread creep key on I, but in the end, whatever is clever :D
On June 04 2012 00:24 superbarnie wrote:
You are going to make 48 versions and not a single one of them are for laptop users without separate keyboard?
This is a huge miss. I will definitely add laptop versions to the list, of course, that would mean having a total of 96 available layouts... I feel like this is going to be a long... long... long... project 
On June 04 2012 01:17 charlie187 wrote:hi hi i have to remap some keys for a keyboard in spanish. im from mex. and i think that all the spanish players will have the same problem coz we have "ñ" and other like " ' " in the place that should be " - ". is a little weird but when i get all fixed i can upload the core for Spanish keyboard users . i was playing whit the last layout and was asome. i want to see how this improbe my game again
Awesome man, please email me the file when you get it done (PM for email address).
Long term I'd love to have files for all different types of keyboards.
I guess we're up at hundreds of versions now...
On June 04 2012 01:48 Mahtasooma wrote:
I fail to quite see the logic behind the logic of building units and structures... do you need to hard-learn that? because it doesn't seem to follow any logic for me.
Also: which finger should be used to reach buttons like "m" , ",", "." and so on?
In addition, for example combat upgrades are from left to right "J # I", whereas upgrades on e.g. infestation pit "I J". Please elaborate what's the logic behind this.
Control groups 1 and 2 are "W" and "S" ? why is that? is that an error due to my german keyboard?
M is pinky
, is ring
. is thumb
/ is thumb
On June 04 2012 05:31 Hylite wrote:
Great work and big thanks to you guys!
Tried the new layout for a few hours now and tested it with all races. Many things I do like so far after getting used to it. I.e. shift/ctrl/- on thumb feels good. But even if I'm used to piano exercising it is not so easy to use ring finger and pinky so extensive with short strokes - maybe it's just the fact I did not use them so much in the standard hotkey setup. Will see how it feels after a week or two.
One thing regarding consistency: I would find it much more logical and way more easy to learn if in all 3 races the building hotkeys for CC/Nexus/Hatch and Upgrade researches (ebay/Forge/Evo) would be the same keys - for a true random player this would be more important imho preventing not pressing the wrong hotkeys.
Injects will take a little to get used to with the thumb on ctrl+shift, but it seems to be quite fast if camera setups are right (Still having some trouble setting the cameras correctly yet, I'm not sure I totally like the center on current selection with the alt key so far).
Over all I wonder how big the mistake rate will be if I got this setup in my brain. Because a wrong keypress could have negative effects more easily than with the standard setup (i.e. I stimmed a few times accidentally instead of attack moving)
Stutter step micro for marines with attack-move/stop seems not very ergonomically, because both keys J and H should be pressed with the pinky, shouldn't they? Same for patrol or hold instead of stop.
The logic is based in data. Not in the visual way the commands look in the command card. Not in the way that Marine begins with M so that's what you use to make marines.
The most frequently used commands are matched with the fastest to press keys.
Take a look at our data document if you are interested in more details.
Once you learn a layout, your brain does not even think about the letter that is on the key. It goes straight from "i want to make a zealot" to "press middle finger down, press ring finger down" The mistake rate will drop to your whatever your "normal" mistake rate is once you have learned the layout.
Stutter step micro was a HUGE mistake. Thank you for pointing this out. It is currently my #1 concern. If you find any fixes I would greatly appreciate your input.
On June 04 2012 05:43 _NIx_ wrote:oh boy, i'm really excited to start using this. I've tried Darkgrid before, and after a few weeks I got tons better mechanically. Unfortunately, I couldn't follow through and eventually moved back to standard. I'm going to put in the effort to make this switch, hope it works out. See if Foxy can adapt his Darkgrid trainer to this layout, that was the biggest helper at the beginning. thank you guys, the SC community is amazing! edit: WTF why did you guys move everything to the opposite side of the effing keyboard? i might wait til after beta to check this out on second thought edit2: I'm using a Steelseries 6gv2 and I find using the thumb for control and shift very awkward. Am i doing something wrong? heres a pic
Hopefully you have read the rest of this post concerning the shift key, I'll definitely put it in the FAQ. Foxy did not make the trainer, but we will see if the guy who did is willing to make a trainer for this layout as well :D
You're a goddamn hero. Thanks man!
Thanks to everyone for all of your support and interest. I look forward to working with you all to make this the best layout it can be.
|
EPT
