[G] TheCore - Advanced Keyboard Layout - Page 6

On June 05 2012 03:03 JaKaTaK wrote:
Okay, I'll try to answer all of the questions I haven't already answered. I'll also be making more videos to help with the learning process and editing the OP to make some things more clear. But first, I have a question for you:

I need a masters/grandmasters terran with experience using different stutter step micro techniques to explain which is best and why as well as the exact button sequence to perform this optimal stutter step. Thank you in advance, I really want to get this one squared away.

Will this have graphics like Darkgrid?
Yes, it already does. The graphics are in the "select your layout" spoilers. For now we only have graphics for right handed mouse users, but in the future we will have a more comprehensive set of graphics.

I didn't know where to put my hands! Why wasn't this in the OP?
The homekeys are outlined in black on the layout graphics, I will edit so that it actually says the homekeys above/under each layout to make it more clear. (also I show the homekeys in the first explanation video)

"nobody is ever going to be microing with that many keys (control groups)"
We respectfully disagree with your opinion. In fact, I believe that many pros already use that many control groups.

"Also the spacebar, ctrl, and shift keys are much harder to press"
I think you may have your homekeys wrong if you think shift and ctrl are harder to hit. Your thumb should be resting on the shift key, making it one of the 5 easiest keys to press in the layout, with ctrl very close by. As far as the spacebar is concerned, we took the thumb which had 1-2 keys on a regular layout and gave it 5 keys instead, spreading out the load of keys to press between all 5 of your fingers more evenly than before. This will reduce strain and increase speed once you learn it.

I don't understand the camera keys/ the camera keys are hard
I will make a video explaining how to work the camera keys along with how to use the layered camera Inject method (as these 2 things go hand in hand). Basically you have 5 cameras for bases (these are set with alt because you will want to center your base before setting the camera anyway, saving you time) 3 cameras are for w/e else you want to use it for: ramp cam, creep cam, chrono cam, drop cam, cam cam, can can... you get the point. (these are set with shift and will not center on your selection)

EMP vs Snipe (and other ability decisions)
Great question. Basically the 3 main unit abilities are IK/. I is given to the most used ability, K to the second most used ability, / to the third most used ability. However, because / cannot be easily shift queued, any non-shift queued ability will go onto /. With the Ghost this was particularly difficult because there are situations to shift queue pretty much any of its abilities. We made the compromise of putting I on emp and / on snipe because of the insta-snipe trick you can do with ghosts. Any ideas to improve the ghosts commands?

Why is cancel on F5?
Cancel is meant to be hit with your ring finger (not pinky) We found that keeping only your thumb as an anchor and reaching up to F5 with the ring finger was the most ergonomic move. I am currently deliberating moving the cancel button closer, but the reason why it is so far away is that accidentally hitting cancel is probably one of the most devastating accidental commands a player can press. I am considering other options at the moment for the next patch, any ideas with an explanation of why it is a better choice would be very helpful.

Why not do IJKM, for base location hotkeys?
Fucking awesome idea PoeticEnnui. I am absolutely changing this right away. Definitely easier/better to press.

For Kollin
Use the version without extra mouse buttons dude! Sorry for not being clear about this in the OP.

Why not do JIOPK for base location hotkeys?
I would love to, but O and P already use 2/3 modifiers (Ctrl, Shift, and Alt) for control groups and we need 2-3 modifiers to have base cams (one to set, one to select, with alternate 2 in combo to select for larva inject if your are playing zerg) Either way it doesn't work out. If we were allowed more than 3 modifiers I would have a fucking layering field day... but alas...

What is the logic?
I think that this is an interesting question, because I think that using M for Marine just because it begins with the letter M is not very logical. It makes it easy to learn which keys do what, but if you follow that "logic" you end up with the broodwar keyboard layout... and I don't think its necessary for me to go through all the inefficiencies of that layout.

Check out the Data Document if you haven't already. What we did was match the keys that are fastest to press with the commands most frequently executed. Now that's what I call logic. :D

As far as making learning easier, I will be releasing a mnemonics video that should help, but only once the beta is over (to avoid confusion with keys that may change)

Map Presence?
Basically it means Harass or free control group to do as you see fit. We were thinking it would be a great place to put a zergling run-by or something like that. Map Presence/Harrass/Obs keys are very flexible and should serve you in any way you see fit. Nice question, thanks :D

to VanGarde
That blog sounds cool. Thanks for sharing! Definitely feel free to post tips and tricks here that you think are really helpful and I'll put the ones I like in the OP :D

Concerning shift building
This was a small oversight. It is true that it is more efficient to combo different unit structures when you can hold down shift the whole time. However, the / and . keys cannot be easily used as control groups, because adding to a control group requires shift as well. You could press shift with the thumb, / with the index finger and then follow up with the specific building command on your ring or pinky finger. But moving the build keys to the top right corner (which is the only other option I see) would only fix this slight inefficiency to create a larger one. Still this is something that I am actively looking for a creative solution for. If anyone comes up with a solution, please share it with us.

Hope that helped explain some things. Big thanks to PoeticEnnui for finding a better way to do the cameras. And thanks to everyone adding to the discussion.

On June 05 2012 04:13 JaKaTaK wrote:
I am definitely seeing the alt key as center on selection as a more personal preference thing. Definitely change it if you're not feeling it!

Concerning spellcasters, L is the CG for casters, not K. LK would be the keystroke for selecting your spell caster and casting a spell. the other two are LI and L/. What key combination do you think would be faster?

Concerning shift building, I don't know a better way to do it. If you come up with one, please let me know!

On June 05 2012 04:39 Fencer710 wrote:

._. I confused stuff. sorry.

On June 05 2012 05:36 Fencer710 wrote:
Uh, ok then. A faster keystroke would be O-I instead of L-I since O is resting on your finger, and harass keys aren't as time-sensitive. Although, if this doesn't outweigh the benefit of less time spent moving your finger down to L, by all means don't change it. A couple questions/discussion topics:

My ring finger is not long enough to reach F5, so I have to reach to get to that key, which is a problem. It's much more natural for me to press something like left arrow or F8, and accidently pushing a button isn't really a problem since 99% of the time you don't reach to press hotkeys with custom hotkey setups such as this one.

I'm thinking that spacebar could be used to jump between camera locations, and control could be used to set those locations, which would make it easier to build a structure, hold spacebar with your hand, press J, hold shift, and right click back. I believe this could be more efficient than holding control, pressing J, moving your finger to shift and holding it, and then right clicking the mineral patch. There was something else I was going to say about it, but I don't remember......

I don't understand which camera hotkey is supposed to do what by looking at the pictures in the OP, nor is it described anywhere. Also where are the dedicated rally cam and watchtower cam hotkeys? I love using those with Darkgrid.

The descriptions for the layouts are weird. Do claw and fingertip mouse grips fail to be able to press mouse buttons or something?

On June 05 2012 06:05 JaKaTaK wrote:


I don't think spellcasters are more important that macro (for non-mouse). However moving spellcasters to O in the mouse setup might be a possibility, going to test that out and see how it works. (moving that harass to L)

I am convinced that F5 is a bit too far away. Going to start looking at options now.

Unfortunately you can only use button combinations with alt, ctrl, and shift. I wish we could use other keys in combination, but we can't

The green keys in the graphics are your camera keys that can be used for anything you like (rally cam, watchtower cam, etc)

On June 05 2012 06:07 bgalang92 wrote:
Jakatak I posted earlier that CTRL+SHIFT could recall camera positions, but what do you feel about the possibility of accidentally messing up your O and P control groups? I use the base cams very often in my play, and I can see myself
messing up and not holding SHIFT by accident. Do you think this is worth the risk? Or something that practice will eventually prevent?

On June 05 2012 06:19 Fencer710 wrote:

Yeah, excuse me I was talking about with mouse the whole time, didn't clarify. ><

I really like the idea of F8 and or left arrow, depending on preference and the keyboard.

That sucks. Hopefully Blizzard will patch it. I think that using the spacebar in a central role would make this layout a lot better, since it's right there, and is really easy to press using your hand.

Ah, okay. I was confused because one of the keys had "harass" on it like the control groups. I'm stupid some times. :D

On June 05 2012 06:58 ArcticRaven wrote:
Do you plan to make any releases for other keyboardlayouts, especially the French azerty + accents ?

I just don't know how to remap all these different keys from the download profile file.

On June 05 2012 07:10 poeticEnnui wrote:


I find "JIOPK" to be easier and faster to press than "JIOP;", again, with both stored in muscle memory. Mitigates the need to use the index finger twice in a row.

The only issue I see with this is if you need to select all of a type of unit on screen and add it to the control group "O" or "P".

You'd control-click the unit and hit Shift + P or whatever, and if you don't do this separately, you'll end up jumping camera. It's something I do fairly often -- whether or not the camera change matters to me (or even triggers) I'll find out with a few test games.

On June 05 2012 07:25 JaKaTaK wrote:

The best order I have found would be POIJ; Because the first bases are on the strongest fingers. This also negates the double index issue.

That is a good point about the jumping. Looking forward to the test results.