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Regarding all posts pertaining to creep spread and using base cam for spawn larva, I admit that I have now been learned on the superiority of using one camera per base for inject and the newly updated creep mechanic. Thanks, everyone, for pointing me to the new creep mechanic and encouraging me to try injecting without the base camera key.
Concerning the creep spread mechanic, I am absolutely struggling with Ctrl+J on setting the second free cam after a round of spread. Also, Ctrl+F always feels way out of the way when adding new queens to my control group. Here's what I found to be more intuitive:
- Ctrl+J remains as add to Queen control group.
- Ctrl+G as set camera for second creep spread path.
Here's the theory: Ctrl+J to add queens feels very natural, probably because I've practiced it thus far not expecting to change it, but I really don't like having to move my hand that far every time I have to set up a new queen. When spreading creep, Ctrl H+U+I works very nicely, but please note that when I move my hand over one column to the left, I naturally want to squeeze my fingers together every time I do it. Once I finish expanding creep along the first path, I want to relax my hand. As I release tension, my fingers spread out a bit over and land on Ctrl O+U+G. My motion also tends to continue moving slightly to the left as I aim my pinky for that last G which prevents me from accidentally hitting Ctrl+J and screwing up my queens group. I never seem to have a problem returning my index finger back to P thereafter, and my pinky right away gets comfortable resting on the outset _ on the J key, which confirms my hand position and lets me get back to business without too much thought.
I also notice that with your default creep keys, I accidentally press Ctrl H+U+I+O and then hit I again, causing me to break my first path and have to stop mid-game and start debug exactly what I did wrong. I've tried to train myself out of it, but I my pinky and ring finger fight for space between the U and J column of keys every time.
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trying to download with the link in the OP but it doesn't open anything... the page just loads (skydrive)
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czglory:
You're doing it right. From there, you have to select a directory with your keyboard layout (most are QWERTY - if you are american, it's probably QWERTY). Then, you need to select a layout such as PLM, ZRS, etc. First character is race (P, T or Z), second character is left/right handed and the final character is the size of your grip. Try M if you're unsure.
Most standard right-handed zerg are going to be:
Skydrive > US QWERTY > ZRM
A left-handed Terran with a tiny hand would be:
Skydrive > US QWERTY > TLS
The variants with an extra M on the end use a slightly different arrangement, and are meant for players who use the extra buttons on their mice for control groups.
EDIT ------------------------------------------------
StarCraft 2 needs support for more cameras! With 6 bases and 2 creep paths, you don't have any free cameras left!
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I mean when I click the link for skydrive, the website is blank and never loads, but it worked when i loaded it up on a different browser, thanks
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On April 19 2013 17:43 Omen wrote:
Ctrl+F always feels way out of the way when adding new queens to my control group. Here's what I found to be more intuitive:
- Ctrl+J remains as add to Queen control group.
- Ctrl+G as set camera for second creep spread path.
What's your keyboard layout? Ctrl+F shouldn't have been add to queen group if you were using ZRM. It should have been on Ctrl+K. I think F is for left-handed users. If that's what it was, then that's probably an error with the file.
So if you put "add to queen control group" as ctrl+K you can leave set second cam as ctrl+J. I think that's better than ctrl+g, but if you like it the way you've set it up then that's fine.
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Borskey is right, ctrl+F is an error. It should be ctrl+K.
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On April 19 2013 06:51 Snoodles wrote:
I'm not too thrilled with the create tech lab button, mainly because it's been moved from a strong finger to a weak finger, downward pinky action.
The lifting and building cancellation buttons are in much better places. My only worry is accidentally hitting the lift button :D
I know that if you don't already use mouse buttons it may not matter to you, but I believe that having production on mouse buttons and main army on your pointer and index finger is way faster than cycling up and down the keyboard. I love how fast I can place down a barracks or a factory with the new layout, but the problem is that the build advanced key has replaced "tab to next subgroup", and "tab to next subgroup" has been moved to the mousebuttons. I've never needed to cycle back, so in a ways it's redundant to use two mousebuttons for something that used to take one. Also, let me explain the MM macro cycle:
I've selected the parts of your post that I are also main concerns of mine. Admittedly, I'm still in the "getting used to" phase of the Core, with about 50 games played with it, but so far, the button that annoys me the most to press is M. I can't seem to get it right as fast as I'd like to and it's a problem in-game for me, especially for emergency engineering bays (god I hate DTs). I'm considering using another key, but I still haven't figured out which one could be better. Any idea?
I think Jak said they were considering swapping the lift building key elsewhere for the reason you mentioned and I can't agree more.
I also believe that it's redundant to have a "select previous subgroup" key (on the mouse atm) and I've never used it myself. That's why I use this mouse button as my "select all army" hotkey, which is probably the biggest omission in the Core (for reasons I've detailed in length in a previous post here, which has gone unnoticed). I've found it pretty useful and intuitive so far!
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On April 19 2013 22:45 CursedFeanor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 06:51 Snoodles wrote:
I'm not too thrilled with the create tech lab button, mainly because it's been moved from a strong finger to a weak finger, downward pinky action.
The lifting and building cancellation buttons are in much better places. My only worry is accidentally hitting the lift button :D
I know that if you don't already use mouse buttons it may not matter to you, but I believe that having production on mouse buttons and main army on your pointer and index finger is way faster than cycling up and down the keyboard. I love how fast I can place down a barracks or a factory with the new layout, but the problem is that the build advanced key has replaced "tab to next subgroup", and "tab to next subgroup" has been moved to the mousebuttons. I've never needed to cycle back, so in a ways it's redundant to use two mousebuttons for something that used to take one. Also, let me explain the MM macro cycle:
I've selected the parts of your post that I are also main concerns of mine. Admittedly, I'm still in the "getting used to" phase of the Core, with about 50 games played with it, but so far, the button that annoys me the most to press is M. I can't seem to get it right as fast as I'd like to and it's a problem in-game for me, especially for emergency engineering bays (god I hate DTs). I'm considering using another key, but I still haven't figured out which one could be better. Any idea? I think Jak said they were considering swapping the lift building key elsewhere for the reason you mentioned and I can't agree more. I also believe that it's redundant to have a "select previous subgroup" key (on the mouse atm) and I've never used it myself. That's why I use this mouse button as my "select all army" hotkey, which is probably the biggest omission in the Core (for reasons I've detailed in length in a previous post here, which has gone unnoticed). I've found it pretty useful and intuitive so far!
I wouldn't say it went totally unnoticed. I agreed that the select all army hotkey, in particular for Terran, is a necessary addition for TheCore. You posted the link to Demuslim talking about how he uses it to gather his reinforcements without having to look away, right?
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Interesting: one of the reasons (that I can recall) that previous subgroup was put on the mouse is because we used to have long lists of upgrade buildings on cgs, (5 for t and p, and 10ish for z). This would have made getting to a specific building more efficient. However, now that most control groups use less kinds of things in them, maybe we should reevaluate if it is necessary/useful/is-there-something-better? I do not think select all army should go on the mouse since you are likely to use it to click right after. I do agree that it can be a useful clutch key, certainly for Terran and maybe for the other races as well.
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On April 19 2013 23:02 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 22:45 CursedFeanor wrote:On April 19 2013 06:51 Snoodles wrote:
I'm not too thrilled with the create tech lab button, mainly because it's been moved from a strong finger to a weak finger, downward pinky action.
The lifting and building cancellation buttons are in much better places. My only worry is accidentally hitting the lift button :D
I know that if you don't already use mouse buttons it may not matter to you, but I believe that having production on mouse buttons and main army on your pointer and index finger is way faster than cycling up and down the keyboard. I love how fast I can place down a barracks or a factory with the new layout, but the problem is that the build advanced key has replaced "tab to next subgroup", and "tab to next subgroup" has been moved to the mousebuttons. I've never needed to cycle back, so in a ways it's redundant to use two mousebuttons for something that used to take one. Also, let me explain the MM macro cycle:
I've selected the parts of your post that I are also main concerns of mine. Admittedly, I'm still in the "getting used to" phase of the Core, with about 50 games played with it, but so far, the button that annoys me the most to press is M. I can't seem to get it right as fast as I'd like to and it's a problem in-game for me, especially for emergency engineering bays (god I hate DTs). I'm considering using another key, but I still haven't figured out which one could be better. Any idea? I think Jak said they were considering swapping the lift building key elsewhere for the reason you mentioned and I can't agree more. I also believe that it's redundant to have a "select previous subgroup" key (on the mouse atm) and I've never used it myself. That's why I use this mouse button as my "select all army" hotkey, which is probably the biggest omission in the Core (for reasons I've detailed in length in a previous post here, which has gone unnoticed). I've found it pretty useful and intuitive so far! I wouldn't say it went totally unnoticed. I agreed that the select all army hotkey, in particular for Terran, is a necessary addition for TheCore. You posted the link to Demuslim talking about how he uses it to gather his reinforcements without having to look away, right?
I was not the one linking to the VOD, but I agreed with this guy and I explained specific situations where this key is optimal and should therefor be kept available in the Core. Since then, I've tried it on backspace, but it was uncomfortable since it needed my whole hand to move from the home keys, slowing down my macro. I just recently switched it to a side mouse button and it's much better!
Also I forgot to mention my point (again from another of my previous posts) that "build basic" should be on [ imho. It feels soooo much better! All stuff I can do on my own customizations, but I feel it could (should?) be in the vanilla version of the Core.
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I like previous and next subgroup on the mouse for the reason Ninjury mentioned, about grouping all production on one hotkey (and CCs / upgrades on one other). Technically it would be useful to make what you need faster (like hitting prev to get to starports first).
I put select all army on 'Y' and it has been working ok for me.
As for a new lift key, I agree. I had a thought on this, but haven't tested it yet (I will when I get home tonight): how about the enter key? Now it is used for chat, but I've always moved my chat to 'Tab' (and shift-tab etc) since I would need to put my hands in a normal keyboard position to type anyway. This would be for TRM of course
I suppose the equivalent for TLM would be 'Caps lock' then. Again, haven't tested this but it seems like an easy enough key to hit with the thumb but wouldn't be so easy to hit accidentally.
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A Number of Oversights
Chat should be moved to tab for xRM versions. The Ultralisk issue has already been fixed by Sixtus (Yay!). The order of Cameras needs to be fixed. The observer functions have to be redone due to weird rules with the buttons on the Replay Timeline previously unknown to us. These were mistakes in the most recent Alpha builds where we switched over to a new workflow. I will try to fix it today.
Concerning Select All Army:
I do think that there are specific functions for this button that are efficient and will include it in the next build. (Just hadn't gotten around to it earlier, sorry). It would be best to have this on the CG side because it should be followed (likely) by an attack command or add to CG (which would be Ctrl first) in order to prevent finger repetition.
The Dreaded Lift Key:
Seriously, this key has been one of the most annoying keys since day 1 of TheCore. Accidentally lifting off a CG is such a terrible mistake that we really aught to put Lift/Land on the furthest key that those structures use. I'll be taking a look at this today and hopefully uploading the new files as well!
I'll have the update out at the end of the day to let you all know what got done 
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With the Option 7 creep method, how do you guys deal with your creep queens? If you're out there spreading creep would you just manually select them every time? It seems to break the flow of the method (especially since you can't shift-queue tumors with the queens, or can you? maybe that works even if you're still holding down ctrl).
I'm just paranoid about my creep queens, cause if there's some marines out there killing my creep, I want to be able to just instantly select my creep queens so I can bring them back to safety at the front of my base.
(I personally have been putting them both in the main inject control group and a separate one [ L ] )
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I use them manually, but I often do not keep them in the same lane as the cameras are in. I like to save some energy on them in case I need some transfuses or new tumors. I don't think it interrupts the flow, since you can continue holding the U button. One cannot spread multiple tumors like this, but if you are following your injects you should not need to. I also tend to keep the creep algorithm separate from dropping tumors with queens, except at the very beginning.
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Is there a potential layering option for using the lift key? As a sort of "are you sure you want to lift" procedure? Something like CTRL- [lift key].To me it makes sense to have a layered lift but an unlayered landing command. Lifting is most important in the early game to get certain hellion/widow/mine/banshee timings, or when you build your expansion in your main. At this time in the game not too much is going on that hitting an extra key would hurt. In TvP I know that after reactoring my first starport, I usually do not need make any more swaps. In later barracks and factories starports you pretty much know what you're going to need them for and only build addons. From then on, the lift key is more of a liability than helpful, unless it comes down to a base trade scenario.
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@Snoodles
You cannot layer abilities. I think moving it out will be enough though
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On April 19 2013 01:05 Ninjury_J wrote:@Alexxon88 This video explains why the modifiers are moved around I'm curious, why do you say that a layout needs to be easy to master?
Thanks. Explains it well, 'am thrilled to test it. Edit: oh haha with shift + grouphotkey you don't even add that group to your selection, but that video explained another reason of course.
That's not a simple answer for me.
You are quoting me wrong, efficient to master I meant, but that phrase wouldn't look very well with the typical one.
My opinion built up on the design-process and reasoning/advertisement in the beginning of the first post.
It should not mainly be designed to be easy to learn, but to be most efficient when you learned and automated all the keys/mechanisms. Maybe the author aimed for a wide spread of the core and tries to attract newer players.
So my feedback is mainly about the first postings and that there is not presented how it will be when you have learned the hotkeys, because that's what is the point for me when learning - what can I achieve with it later on??
Well that was the point. And in a way easy to master, because of course it will take time to learn it, but once you have learned it, it should be very fast and natural control what it might be.. but it isn't from the first impression. Not taking gameplay-skill into account. And in a way mastering is always very difficult of course, testing new hotkey-variations with different gameplay-strategies <- that's why easy to master doesn't fit.
Anyways I think you could write a whole articel about this and my english is not sufficient.
I also don't want to downgrade the work you put in for higher players that want to train and adjust their hotkeys for special strategies or playstyles. *Hat up* It was just a small feedback and a personal notice of someone who doesn't care about easy to learn and is interested in the higher stuff, a notice that you can think about if you want, because for a greater feedback I'd had to test more.
While starcraft playing and hotkey design are both likely such fields, professional players are (in general) experts only at the former. Therefore, there is no reason to depend on pro players' opinions regarding custom hotkey layouts.
Haha yes I remember so many players.. They spoke about it at the Home story Cup. One was using QWER layout. And he cried about that he sometimes would hit the wrong key because of this layout or that this and that was bad about his Layout, but he didn't change it... They were also describing why player A made Mistake B because of his qwer hotkey layout. In other words some pro players had just a short limited selection of layouts and didn't spend much time... Spending work/research in layouts takes almost as much time as playing the game and becoming good... And I'd say it adresses different kinds of people in most cases...
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I am not sure I understand completely, but I think we are on the same page: the layout should be awesome to use once learnt, right?
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On April 20 2013 02:43 Ninjury_J wrote:
I am not sure I understand completely, but I think we are on the same page: the layout should be awesome to use once learnt, right?
yes, however core created some doubts for me that I explained above. Of course I can't say how it is at last.
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@Alexon88
I am really sorry, but I have no idea what you mean. TheCore focuses on making the best possible end result. We don't make something easier to learn if it makes the end result weaker.
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EPT
