EPT
[G] TheCore - Advanced Keyboard Layout - Page 190
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Ninjury_J
Canada408 Posts
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
Let us know what you come up with. I'm all about making the offracing better if we don't have to sacrifice the main race. | ||
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fengshaun
149 Posts
Meanwhile, what do you think of this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AupIb4-ZC3zsdEhNRUlCQU5fWHZldGQtX1MwM2d6SXc Obviously cut down a lot (no ZLM and things I don't personally use), but the layout? Looks clear and easy to find stuff at a glance! EDIT: CGs are "unused" since they change throughout the game, I'll just keep a mental note! And same thing can happen to protoss and terran keys on lower rows. EDIT: Also, if you can, please make a how-to video for the new creeping method! | ||
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thayneq
96 Posts
On April 18 2013 10:06 fengshaun wrote: Wouldn't using free cam 2 and spread creep be quite uncomfortable unless used with this creep spread method? I guess I could just fork the document for myself, but I was wondering about whether there would be a creep spread method that could take that into account too! actually one of the really cool side effects of the free cameras being recalled with O and H is that it makes it very easy to rapidly twiddle between each of those cams (using pinky on H and index on O). This is useful when you need to watch multiple places at once to nail down the timing. The "shift" of your fingers by one key is actually really helpful because it puts your mind in a mode where you know you are doing either free cams or creep spread or both. Once your muscles train to the motions, it's super fast and you don't have to think about it any more. I imagine for offracing, these two cameras would be perfect for managing two separate drops, nydus attacks, or even chronoboost cams... I don't play much off racing from zerg, though so maybe I'm way off. | ||
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fengshaun
149 Posts
On April 18 2013 15:36 thayneq wrote: actually one of the really cool side effects of the free cameras being recalled with O and H is that it makes it very easy to rapidly twiddle between each of those cams (using pinky on H and index on O). This is useful when you need to watch multiple places at once to nail down the timing. The "shift" of your fingers by one key is actually really helpful because it puts your mind in a mode where you know you are doing either free cams or creep spread or both. Once your muscles train to the motions, it's super fast and you don't have to think about it any more. I imagine for offracing, these two cameras would be perfect for managing two separate drops, nydus attacks, or even chronoboost cams... I don't play much off racing from zerg, though so maybe I'm way off. I guess that could work. I'll try to get used to it and see what happens! | ||
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thayneq
96 Posts
If you have SHs holding your front lines and you need to add more, here is a great way to make sure you'd don't accidentally send your unburrowed SHs into enemy lines, or accidentally reset your locust rally: Lets say you have your SHs assaulting the front on CG "=". now you want to add more, so you go to your production, make a handful, and press Ctrl+= to add them in. Problem: how do you get the new swarm hosts to join your forces?? if you recall the = CG and right click the ground, your eggs will rally to that spot, but so will the locusts! solution: recall your whole SH CG with "=" - CTRL+SHIFT click on the very first wireframe. This will always select all unburrowed SHs. - CTRL click on the very first wireframe. This will always select the burrowed SHs! Using these two, you can easily manage your SHs positioning without letting off the locust gas pedal! Another tip: try disabling auto-locus for your new incoming units by pressing alt-I (or right clicking the command card if you don't want to move your camera). Now you can shift-burrow your SHs at their new destination, then reactivate locusts with alt-I to time with the rest of your army. one final tip: when using SHs against widow mines, don't send all your locusts in at once or they will clump up and die easily. Instead, deactivate auto casting, then enable locusts one by one by using "I" on each SH to stagger the timing. Once you've done this for all of them, select them all and re-enable auto-casting. This is a great way to use free locust units to trigger the mines before you clean them up with your observers and lings. oh and I found out the hard way that blinding cloud doesn't work on mines (but fungal growth does and it's awesome!) Note that generally speaking, it's almost always best to have your SHs synchronized together for maximum damage. ok last last tip: locust AI is actually pretty bad. I get much better results by manually focus firing buildings and units and shift-queuing them. | ||
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Omen
Canada18 Posts
- Shift+I for base camera Lets me inject on (Holding Shift) P, O, I, click, I, click, I, click, I, click... - Creep/defense queens control group: Shift+[ to select, Ctrl+K to add, Ctrl+Shift+K to overwrite (essentially same as inject queens, but transposed 1 key to the right) - Creep tumor on [, center-field camera (for creep spreading) on ], Set with Ctrl+[ or Ctrl+] So now I can ], Shift+[, [, (Holding shift) click, click, click to mass creep tumors. As I encroach on my opponent, I inch the center-field camera further towards my opponent's front. Every time I make a new queen, I either set it to Ctrl+J or Ctrl+K depending on where I want it hanging out. Shift+[ (creep queens) doubles as my early-aggression/anti-air control defense group if I need to keep units at the front to defend, too. Otherwise, I do everything else exactly as TheCore provides out of the box. The synergy between the layered commands makes you feel obligated to use everything that the hotkeys and your race offers. I feel like by giving specific purpose to each hotkey, I am compelled to "unlock" those keys by filling the groups with units. I even find myself using overseer spells each time I send the overseer/corruptor control group to scout. I didn't think too hard about it: I just started doing it naturally. Setting up the Alt+KL;90- cameras (plus my own Shift+[ at map center) at the start of the game gives me a sense of CCTV on my whole half of the map. Thank you for making me a good player. It did not take 50 games to convince me that these hotkeys are superior to every other system I've seen. | ||
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Borskey
160 Posts
On April 18 2013 12:06 fengshaun wrote: In summary, if you use your cams for other things, say, ovies, nyduses, etc., then they will needlessly force you to move out of home pos. Actually, you don't have to shift off of the home position to use the cams for other things. They are on H and O. The reason we mention shifting the hand is because then it makes it easy to call cam->spread creep->reset cam->call next cam in one fluid motion. If you aren't doing something that doesn't require resetting the cam frequently (which creep spread does), you simply leave your hand where it is. Cam 2 doesn't even require you to move your fingers at all, though cam 1 requires you to reach with your pinky. | ||
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CursedFeanor
Canada539 Posts
On April 18 2013 15:00 fengshaun wrote: I realized I was being too ambitious, also know as: ain't nobody got time fo' dat! I'll just try the ZRM you guys come up with. I will reserve ; for terran/protoss production, though. Meanwhile, what do you think of this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AupIb4-ZC3zsdEhNRUlCQU5fWHZldGQtX1MwM2d6SXc Obviously cut down a lot (no ZLM and things I don't personally use), but the layout? Looks clear and easy to find stuff at a glance! EDIT: CGs are "unused" since they change throughout the game, I'll just keep a mental note! And same thing can happen to protoss and terran keys on lower rows. EDIT: Also, if you can, please make a how-to video for the new creeping method! me gusta! please make one for Terran soon, I will most certainly use it! good job | ||
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Thor.Rush
Sweden702 Posts
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CursedFeanor
Canada539 Posts
On April 18 2013 21:51 Thor.Rush wrote: I'm curious about The Core, however, I refrain from reading more into it because I don't see any truly notable players using it. I'm high master/low gm. So let's say every professional cyclist in the world is using octagonal shaped wheels to compete and someone presents you with a circle wheels bike that you could use instead, you'd turn it down? sc2 pros are definitely good at the game, but they are by no means perfect and should not be considered as such. for one, their ergonomic posture while playing is typically terrible, as evidenced by the number of injuries among them. using the Core will provide you with better hand positioning, less movement (= less risk of injury) and will probably contribute to give you a slight edge in game for the same reasons. basically, your argument does not make sense to me. I believe you should think for yourself in most things in life. not blindly follow those who perform better then you (at the moment). | ||
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Snoodles
401 Posts
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Orgganon
Portugal28 Posts
so, the thing is: The Core is a well thought out ergonomic layout (no doubts there). will you like it? probably not (at first - once u tried it u'll love it). but in fact, you do not have to fit it, it has to fit you. with this i'll explain how i came to accept it. at first i thought "wow! i've always wanted to thumb modifiers! let's try this!" then, "hmmmm, quite strange, this does not make sense to me (cg's and abilities placement)" so i sticked with the basic idea of it and changed around some of those to fit me. as i played with it, it kind of made sense in my head but not in my hands so i slowly began to change things back to where they were. if you have the time give it a go and mess around with the keys a bit, only then it all makes sense. hope i'm not committing perjury here but i think that nothing here is straight or immutable. The Core for me is like "open source" software where the ppl who knows it the most give you the product and u can customize it at your will (giving them the deserved credit, of course) if in the end you don't like it, fair enough, still friends! :D | ||
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Alexon88
Belize5 Posts
I would like to know on why you chose CTRL + SHIFT to create a new group, and CTRL to add something to a group? Instead of the default CTRL to create a new group and SHIFT to add something. That decision is interesting. Is the intention to reserve the usage of shift for - let's say - selecting multiple groups for example for an attacking order without actually putting them groups together? or why? Thanks!! At the moment I am using the simple Ctrl to create and Shift to add, but yours might be better. Thanks alot in advance. Yours sincerely a hotkey-editor-freak ps: One thing I want to criticize about your idea of the hotkey layout. It doesn't have to be easy to learn... No, it actually has to be easy (or better word efficient to master! | ||
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Ninjury_J
Canada408 Posts
I'm glad you are curious about TheCore. I understand why you might feel concerned that few high level players use it (I know of at least one -Sandbox.) I'm going to do my best to explain why I think that is, and also why I think it isn't a good reason not to investigate further. High level players, at least at the professional level, cannot afford the time it takes to learn a new setup, if it isn't guaranteed to make them better. TheCore is in beta, and it's newest release is still being tested. It doesn't make sense for a professional to make such a large change to something that is not ironed out yet. That being said, once TheCore gets bigger, and one pro gets faster, or wins a large tournament partly because of some radical custom layout, it is my prediction that TheCore and other highly ergonomic layouts will start to drizzle their ways into professional use. Above, CursedFeanor made an excellent analogy about a bicycle. Just because a professional does something, does not mean it is correct. Such an argument is called an appeal to authority. These arguments are useful only when the field is highly technical, has many hours put into it, and rewards improvement quickly. For example, consider chess. Or sports. (Check out Thinking, Fast and Slow, by Daniel Kahneman for more information.) You might be thinking "Ninjury, are you nuts? Starcraft is highly technical, has many hours put into it, and rewards improvement quickly. It is often compared to both chess AND sports." Granted. professionals are experts at starcraft. If someone like TLO or BOXER comes up with a new strategy or build order, it makes lots of sense to emulate it. However, starcraft players, especially pros, are usually not experts in ergonomics. They have not had 10000 hours of practice designing and playing with different layouts. I won't make any arguments for TheCore in this post. You can find them all over the OP and dispersed through this 190 page thread. TL;DR: arguments that rely on authority are only useful in very specific fields. While starcraft playing and hotkey design are both likely such fields, professional players are (in general) experts only at the former. Therefore, there is no reason to depend on pro players' opinions regarding custom hotkey layouts. (Sidenote, I do say depend on. I do not mean to suggest that their insights are not useful, I just mean they should not be taken as a be all end all.) GLHF with whatever you decide, Ninjury Edit: Here is a a video from the OP explaining what he thinks about this. | ||
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Ninjury_J
Canada408 Posts
This video explains why the modifiers are moved around I'm curious, why do you say that a layout needs to be easy to master? | ||
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thayneq
96 Posts
On April 18 2013 17:36 Omen wrote: I have to say, I just jumped from 100 apm to a comfortable 250 apm in about 2 days, no joke. While switching to ZRMM, I also started incorporating camera positions for the first time and it ended up cutting a lot of dead time out of my game. Here are some modifications that I made on the default ZRMM scheme: - Shift+I for base camera Lets me inject on (Holding Shift) P, O, I, click, I, click, I, click, I, click... - Creep/defense queens control group: Shift+[ to select, Ctrl+K to add, Ctrl+Shift+K to overwrite (essentially same as inject queens, but transposed 1 key to the right) - Creep tumor on [, center-field camera (for creep spreading) on ], Set with Ctrl+[ or Ctrl+] So now I can ], Shift+[, [, (Holding shift) click, click, click to mass creep tumors. As I encroach on my opponent, I inch the center-field camera further towards my opponent's front. Every time I make a new queen, I either set it to Ctrl+J or Ctrl+K depending on where I want it hanging out. Shift+[ (creep queens) doubles as my early-aggression/anti-air control defense group if I need to keep units at the front to defend, too. Otherwise, I do everything else exactly as TheCore provides out of the box. The synergy between the layered commands makes you feel obligated to use everything that the hotkeys and your race offers. I feel like by giving specific purpose to each hotkey, I am compelled to "unlock" those keys by filling the groups with units. I even find myself using overseer spells each time I send the overseer/corruptor control group to scout. I didn't think too hard about it: I just started doing it naturally. Setting up the Alt+KL;90- cameras (plus my own Shift+[ at map center) at the start of the game gives me a sense of CCTV on my whole half of the map. Thank you for making me a good player. It did not take 50 games to convince me that these hotkeys are superior to every other system I've seen. I'm a medium gold player and my APM is around 280 comfortably too! I also think it's great that you are innovating on the core concepts to tailor the setup to your style. I have a couple questions though... if you use the base camera key to switch bases, you will end up with wandering queens unless you either 1) have enough queens as number of bases, or 2) are slowing down your injects by checking for a queen each time. The reason I stay away from this is because when you hit the base camera key, it doesn't go to your bases in order (or does it? I need to check). I like using the individual base cams anyway so I can train my fingers to know exactly which base is doing what. It sounds like you are using those too, just not for injects. As for your creep spread method, I fail to see how this works... if you hold shift the whole time, how are you selecting your creep tumors? boxing them? And if so, what happens when there are allies in your box? Also, how do you reset your cam with ctrl? Toggling ctrl or shift while holding the other is very uncomfrotable.... This seems to not be very smooth to me. I highly recommend you check out the option 7 we've put together because it can do everything while holding only control and then a simple roll of your fingers. it also has the advantages of working with queens, and having more than one creep lane. I think yours sounds like it only works on one path. Am I missing something? | ||
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thayneq
96 Posts
Post self-removed to stop trolls and flame wars. | ||
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Spaceboy
United Kingdom220 Posts
On April 18 2013 17:36 Omen wrote: I have to say, I just jumped from 100 apm to a comfortable 250 apm in about 2 days, no joke. ~ On April 19 2013 03:42 thayneq wrote: I'm a medium gold player and my APM is around 280 comfortably too! ~ I feel really mean pointing this out guys but you should probably know the APM tracking in the game is either A) heavily bugged or B) for some reason switched to a reporting metric that is so bizarre it no longer has any relevance. I can't remember when it happened, could have been the release of HotS or at some point during the beta.. but with one of the patches the APM count sky rocketed for no discernible reason across the board. For instance for me I was playing at around 100 APM.. patch comes through and a day later I'm up in the mid to high 200s.. where I remain today. Using a site such as ggtracker.com (which everyone should because it's awesome) or an app like Sc2gears you can see your actual APM.. which as expected for me is still around the 100 mark. Sorry to break it to you guys but we're not suddenly all playing as fast as Bisu just because we're using TheCore. | ||
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Snoodles
401 Posts
On April 19 2013 05:14 Spaceboy wrote: I feel really mean pointing this out guys but you should probably know the APM tracking in the game is either A) heavily bugged or B) for some reason switched to a reporting metric that is so bizarre it no longer has any relevance. I can't remember when it happened, could have been the release of HotS or at some point during the beta.. but with one of the patches the APM count sky rocketed for no discernible reason across the board. For instance for me I was playing at around 100 APM.. patch comes through and a day later I'm up in the mid to high 200s.. where I remain today. Using a site such as ggtracker.com (which everyone should because it's awesome) or an app like Sc2gears you can see your actual APM.. which as expected for me is still around the 100 mark. Sorry to break it to you guys but we're not suddenly all playing as fast as Bisu just because we're using TheCore. This is true. My main race is Terran and my APM is 170-200, but when I play a long macro game with many production buildings, or offrace as zerg, my apm shoots above 350 because apparently holding down a key to make a bunch of the same unit is counted as high APM, more so than spamming control groups in the beginning of the game. | ||
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