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On April 12 2013 18:09 FlOverlord wrote:
Hey,
I was just about ready to get used to the new suggested use of control groups for 0.6.3 but then figured I might as well go with 1.0 if I'm relearning anyway.
I was wondering what the suggested way of doing things is, if you don't use mouse buttons for subgroups.
-as a side note I also use the 6Gv2, but really I want to keep the layout as generic as possible -
Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I feel weired if I'm only able to play the game with a mouse with side buttons.
I do have one, but none the less I feel kind of resistant to be using them. I feel like you should be able to play the game with just any mouse and keyboard, but maybe that's the price of optimization.
Thanks everybody for the great work!!!
I'm using the RRM layout. I bound chat to tab, and next subgroup to enter.
Was a bit awkward at first but I'm getting used to it. I play P and Z, not sure if it would be a huge problem for terrans. It's a bit annoying to make immortals since you need to use thumb to tab to the robo and then again to hit / to make them... Also it's not good to keep HT's on the same hotkey as your sentries with this binding. But aside from that it seems ok.
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@Thayneq,
Would you mind explaining again why it is a problem with creep spread? I am not against changing it by any means (K is still good, and we may find another use for Ctrl I), I just don't understand why and when you use Ctrl I to spread creep.
Thanks so much,
Ninjury
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On April 13 2013 02:31 Ninjury_J wrote:
@Thayneq,
Would you mind explaining again why it is a problem with creep spread? I am not against changing it by any means (K is still good, and we may find another use for Ctrl I), I just don't understand why and when you use Ctrl I to spread creep.
Thanks so much,
Ninjury
Because "spawn creep tumor" is on I, and since you're either using Ctrl to recall the camera OR for ctrl clicking all your tumors, you either have to awkwardly toggle ctrl (which slows you down), or you end up accidentally adding tumors to your inject group. Thayneq also wrote a post a while back about his preferred method of creep spreading (though I think he may have changed his mind somewhat) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341878¤tpage=173#3441
(edit: looking through his posts, he bound camera locations to mousewheel up and mousewheel down so that he wouldn't have to screw around with ctrl and ctrlshift as much, so the method I linked to is outdated for him. I'm not sure of exactly what button sequence he uses anymore)
Thayneq, I just had an idea that might solve the awkwardness of toggling shift while holding ctrl- what if instead of having Ctrl+Shit+J to set cam and Ctrl+J to recall, we had Ctrl+Shift+H (or some other key) to set and Ctrl+Shift+J to recall? Then you hold Ctrl+Shift the entire time, no problem (and you want to hold both anyways for quickly grabbing all the queens and tumors). It might take some getting used to, but I imagine it would be faster once you are practiced with it.
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@Borskey
It is my belief that Thayneq does not use that anymore, because of the difficulty from pressing Ctrl to pressing shift and Ctrl. Concerning the base camera creep spread method:
1) inject
2) make units
3) hold control add eggs (hold from 3-5)
4)pres J (recalls free cam 1)
5) click tumors.
6) press I, spread creep.
7) press Ctrl + SHIFT + J to reset first cam.
8) redo steps 4 to 7 with second cam.
One needs to let go of control at some point, since one needs Ctrl and shift to go to the next camera. If one does it at step 6, then there is a double press with the thumb, but one can continue holding Ctrl to spread. If one does it at step 5, one holds I to spread, then presses shift Ctrl O to go to the second cam. I am failing to understand what the advantage is of pressing Ctrl while pressing I, since you must let go soon anyways, and it necessitates putting add to queen group on a lesser key.
I may be wrong, but I don't think one can hold Ctrl and shift the whole time because I think Ctrl + shift click does not select all things.
I also not convinced this method is faster than the minimap. Has anyone tested the two out properly?
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Aren't free cams recalled with control, not control+shift?
And holding ctrl+shift does allow you to select everything.
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Oups. I forgot one step. You need to reset the first cam. That's where you use ctrl shift.
Edit: Shift and ctrl does select everything, but it adds them to the current selection.
Edit Edit: I just tested this: If I press control and click tumors, "I" does not initiate creep tumors if control is held down. Does anyone else have a different experience?
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On April 13 2013 04:13 Ninjury_J wrote:
Edit: Shift and ctrl does select everything, but it adds them to the current selection.
Yes, which is what you want because you're trying to select all the tumors and all the queens in an area.
On April 13 2013 04:13 Ninjury_J wrote:
Edit Edit: I just tested this: If I press control and click tumors, "I" does not initiate creep tumors if control is held down. Does anyone else have a different experience?
That would be because you still have adding to the inject control group on ctr+I, so what you are telling the game to do is add those tumors to your inject control group. If you change that keybind to something else (ctrl+K, for example), ctrl+I will spread creep exactly the same as I by itself will.
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@Borskey, Thayneq, and creep spreaders everywhere:
Ah yes, I did forget to rebind the queen control group. I did now, and you are right that it works.
In that case, following Thayneq's modifications and Borskey's ideas above, here is an new concept.
Changes
Add to CG 2 (queens): ctrl + K
Create CG 2 (queens: ctrl + shift + K
Create free cam 1: ctrl + O
Go to free cam 1: ctrl + H
Create free cam 2: ctrl + M
Go to free cam 2: ctrl + J
Method
0) *Add units to control groups after inject* (not always, but combos well).
1) Holding ctrl the entire time
2) H (go to cam 1)
3) Click tumors
4) Hold I
5) Click to spread creep
6) Optional: select queens.
7) Optional: Press I
8) Optional: click to spread creep.
9) *during step 8 if necessary* move camera with mouse
10) Press O (resets cam 1)
11) Press J (go to cam 2)
12) Click tumors
13) Hold I
14) Click to spread creep
15) Optional: select queens.
16) Optional: Press I
17) Optional: click to spread creep.
18) *during step 17 if necessary* move camera with mouse
19) Press O (resets cam 2)
Why I think it works
A) The user gets to press ctrl the entire time. This creates a sort of dichotomy where shift is used to inject larva, and ctrl is used to spread creep.
B) Fingers do not get repeated. The order is Pinky, Ring, Middle, Pinky, Ring, Pinky. (ideally we would have Middle be the last one, but unfortunately there are no keys available.)
C) Both cameras are either set or recalled with the homekeys.
D) The best combination is OJ. This is allocated to set cam 1 and recall cam 2, which is the only combination in this method that requires no mouse use in between.
Why I think shift control doesn't work
Shift ctrl ADDS to the current selection. I can see why this would be valuable: queens and tumors get put into the selection and therefore you have less mouse movement. The problems with this are:
i. If something is already selected, as it likely will be, the queens and tumors will get added to it. Creep is last in selection priority and queens are first, which means you will need to go between them using previous subgroup, adding an action.
ii. Sometimes whatever is selected maintains its priority. I don't know the rule for when this is the case, but when it does happen, one will require multiple presses of next/previous subgroup. Perhaps there is a way to eliminate this, does anyone know how?
iii. If the whole selection is clicked to move before pressing I to spread creep from the queens then whatever is selected will go to that location.
iv. Ctrl + Shift is slower and less ergonomic than just ctrl.
The combination of these things is more disadvantageous than the above, IMO. One does need to move the mouse slightly more, because spreading creep from the queens is not optimized.
Let me know what you think,
Ninjury
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This method is kind of ridiculous. Very exited about it.
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I'll give that a shot and see how I like it.
Thinking about it, I suspect you're right about shift+ctrl (what I suggested a few posts ago) being bad, mainly because of point 1. I never got around to testing my earlier suggestion about putting recall camera location on ctrl+shift, as I'd just thought of it then and I've been busy with some IRL stuff. It seems like a big flaw that I overlooked when thinking about it.
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It already feels better than the initial process thayneq layed out (where you had to toggle between ctrl and ctrl+shift). I'm still fumbling with it a bit (accidentally setting the wrong camera keys and stuff), but I think that as you get used to this it will be an improvement over minimap clicking and scrolling.
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It's totally ridiculous on paper, but in reality it's feeling pretty darn sweet!
It might be a little more APM than just clicking the minimap, but I would gladly trade off a few repeatable actions of my keyboard hand over moving my mouse back and forth in the heat of battle. Time will tell, need more time for testing.
Ninjury, one problem, steps 10 and 19 are the same, aren't they? Is this a typo?
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@thayneq
that's definitely a typo. I believe M sets cam2
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the other problem I see is that we need to be careful about using CTRL+anything for setting and recalling cameras. Just make sure that it doesn't interfere with commonly used abilities, (for instance CTRL+clicking all roaches and burrowing or un-burrowing them in the heat of battle).
Maybe we need to map out which abilities overlap with the CTRL+ camera keys so we can be sure we are minimizing the chance of disaster... Disaster example: un-burrow all roaches for attack, but instead I got wisked away to my free camera location and die.
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That's a good point. Seems like too many variables to take into account, but maybe I'm wrong.
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or you could make the free cameras not conflict with abilities, so you could use something like U, 8, N, M? But then again this makes the finger dancing tricker. I think one thing is clear: If it's not super duper easy to set and recall the cameras, then it's easier to use the mouse.
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Ok, here is a list:
Four keys: J O H M
J is attack
O is fungal, morph to bane, morph to broods, blinding cloud, swarm host rally, unload,
H is burrow
M is hold position
I am having trouble seeing the problem though. Burrow seems to me the only potential problem since all these other things generally should have cgs. However, to control click and burrow, press ctrl, click, let go while pressing burrow. Is there something I am missing?
If burrow is the only problem, then we can use N (patrol) instead of H.
Otherwise I agree that if it gets much more complicated, mini map is probably best, unfortunately.
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Basic question here: I can use cameras to jump to specific locations on the map. I can use control groups to select specific buildings or units on a map without changing a camera. I want a combination of these two things. I want to be able to press a hotkey and have the camera change to view my units and have the selection change to these units. Is this possible?
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On April 13 2013 09:43 snowbird122 wrote:
Basic question here: I can use cameras to jump to specific locations on the map. I can use control groups to select specific buildings or units on a map without changing a camera. I want a combination of these two things. I want to be able to press a hotkey and have the camera change to view my units and have the selection change to these units. Is this possible?
Double-tap your control group.
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Yes
You can either double press a control group. That will send your camera to those units. Or, you can press a control group followed by center on selection. The later is arguably faster, but not by very much.
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EPT
