EPT[G] TheCore - Advanced Keyboard Layout - Page 159
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RELAPSE1449
Canada7 Posts
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Geva
Israel16 Posts
For something that is this common, especially in late game Protoss, it seems at the very least just less comfortable. I think the idea to switch Basic and Advanced is probably the best because you still earn an extra use with the thumb (the = was never that great of a key for build advanced) while still keeping the speed and comfort of basic | ||
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hobbidude
Canada171 Posts
Anyways my solution was to move basic and advanced build to 9 and L respectively with l being the nexus instead so as to not unintentionally place a base. I find it works extremely well and stays true to my thoughts on how some part of your hand should stay at the same position of the keyboard to make sure you return to "home row" On another note to the op i've moved next subgroup to ctrl while keeping all the other modifier command the same (to again allow my thumb to not have to move from the keyborard while also doubling a keys uses. So far it doesn't impair any other abilities like adding to groups as its rather unrelated and allows easier access with the tabbed gate/robo production. | ||
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Crosswind
United States279 Posts
On March 26 2013 13:38 thayneq wrote: Have you actually tested this? I've been trying out the new layout for about 2 days, and so far I'm really liking it. I don't find that using my thumb for build basic slow me down at all. It's a lateral movement for your thumb, which is very natural. Also one thing to remember about shift queuing buildings is this: between the time you've selected your worker, moved your thumb to / and typed "O" or whatever, you have a lot of time between when you need to move your thumb back to shift before actually lining up your mouse cursor to click on where you'd like the first subsequent buildings to go. Basically, the time it takes your thumb to move back and forth is much smaller than the time it takes your cursor to move around the screen clicking the areas for buildings, so you don't really lose any time. Sure, there is a small motion of the thumb, but I much prefer not using / for tabbing through my tech structures since those usually require multiple rapid presses which my thumb can't do. Let's let Jak finish 1.0, then get in a good solid week or two of testing, and then see how people fare. Nothing is set in stone and it's silly to speculate without trying it out. You might be surprised. On the other hand, you might still hate it :-) Yeah, I tried it for about 5 games. I sort of love this whole project to death, so I try not to give useless feedback. =) I, too, think that cycle on the mouse buttons is much better. But just because you have cycle on the mouse buttons, doesn't mean you need to put basic build on slash. Apostrophe is just more convenient by far. I would imagine that their logic was as follows: If you hotkey a building probe, it'll probably be on index finger. Index finger to apostrophe is a double tap for the index finger. That's not the best plan, so let's put build basic on thumb instead. Issue is that I use shift _so much_ that it's really nice to have a relatively dedicated finger there. And to not slow down my build-basic queuing by requiring two of the same finger in a standard motion. -Cross | ||
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Stow.Wif
France67 Posts
Hope the 4 button mouse is not mandatory. | ||
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Ninjury_J
Canada408 Posts
Concerning build basic on Z and /, I know Jak is considering switching it with build advanced. What do you think of build advanced on / and Z? I feel it doesn't run into the same issue. @Stow.Wif A mouse with buttons will not be necessary. I think with two or three rebinds, non mouse button users will be good to go  . | ||
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JDub
United States976 Posts
On March 26 2013 23:11 Ninjury_J wrote: Hey everyone, Concerning build basic on Z and /, I know Jak is considering switching it with build advanced. What do you think of build advanced on / and Z? I feel it doesn't run into the same issue. @Stow.Wif A mouse with buttons will not be necessary. I think with two or three rebinds, non mouse button users will be good to go .I'm not sure exactly why we want to switch to a "you must rebind stuff" approach. Why can't we just have two versions available -- one for those who have mouse buttons, and one for those who do not? I'm asking this as the person who can make the necessary adjustments to the generation script to make it happen. | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
If you hotkey a building probe, it'll probably be on index finger. Index finger to apostrophe is a double tap for the index finger. That's not the best plan, so let's put build basic on thumb instead. Just to be clear, I strongly suggest against anyone using a control group for a worker to build things. Very inefficient. The logic was the same for this decision as for most decisions: We will use / for an ability. If we use it for build, we will avoid all finger repetition. / is faster than A so we will bind it to build basic, because build basic is more common. This last postulate is impossible to verify, as far as which key is faster than another key. The key scores we have are on the archive and we'll be releasing more information about them for 1.0. As always, feel free to make your own customization, swapping build basic and build advanced is super easy and will unbind 0 other keys. We're going to try it for 2 weeks. After that time we will revisit the idea of swapping them. For now, I would really appreciate everyone giving it their best shot if they can | ||
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Hhhhh
Sweden1 Post
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Viker5
Canada17 Posts
Also, while I do realize it is still possible to shift-queue buildings, I also feel like, as a protoss, it is a lot more difficult than before, I will give it a shot, but most likely will end up switching build basic and build Advanced just because shift-queueing pylons is so frequent! | ||
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Crosswind
United States279 Posts
On March 26 2013 23:30 JaKaTaK wrote: Just to be clear, I strongly suggest against anyone using a control group for a worker to build things. Very inefficient. The logic was the same for this decision as for most decisions: WELL NOW YOU ARE IMPUGNING MY STRATEGIC MASTERY SIR. I (and, I think, a lot of other people) hotkey scouting probes, for the purposes of using double-tap to move the camera to them. That scouting probe frequently is in charge of building things, like hatch-blocking pylons, proxy pylons, cannons. Likewise, when you're Forge Fast Expanding, you frequently want to hotkey the probe that is down there building stuff/poking around, for easy access. Any particular reason not to? -Cross | ||
Fiziks
United States59 Posts
On March 26 2013 23:48 Hhhhh wrote: The 1.0 doc seem to be missing global keybinds and camera hotkeys. Are they the same for 0.63 and 1.0? Not sure if I'm just reading it wrong, but I've been waiting for the global keybinds in the Archive as well. Before I jump into 1.0, I just want to be certain I'm not screwing anything up with the global keys. I'm also dying to find out what it's like playing with the new position for next unit selection because I LOVED having it on /. It made macro'ing with Terran so fast when all your Army production facilities were on the same CG and you didn't even have to pivot your hand to macro. | ||
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LonelyClock
Canada29 Posts
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Ninjury_J
Canada408 Posts
I don't know how to say this without sounding mean, but 1.0 is not out yet. I know everyone is excited to see the new changes. For now, I think we can copy the archive, and leave the global keybinds as they were. Remember, it is in SUPER MEGA ALPHA MODE .I know Jak is working hard on this, but he does some other SC2 and gaming stuff as well. Tuesdays are all-day-streams for him: you can check him out at twitch.tv/zanderfever where he plays different games, including SC2. Other days, he streams at twitch.tv/thejakatak where he does SC2 educational content with a focus on TheCore and his learning method, TheStaircase. Trust me, I am super excited as well. I made my own file from the archives, and kept the global keybinds how they were. This lets me practice with abilities on / and next/previous sg on the mouse WHICH I LOVE. It is even faster than before and there is rarely a need to spam either / or the M buttons Anyways, maybe we can exercise our patience together by talking about other things. Does anyone have any tricks or tips they have learned by playing with TheCore? | ||
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thayneq
96 Posts
On March 27 2013 04:11 LonelyClock wrote: I've been very confused for a long time. What about this hotkey layout makes it better than a standard layout? If people are having troubles reaching hotkeys then they should use grid shouldn't they? I would just like some clarification on why people insist on copying other peoples hotkeys which could not suit them instead of just rebind things as they see fit (ex. If you have a small pinky then take off far to reach pinky hotkey and assign it to something more comfortable). Page 1. "Why TheCore?" watch the 3 minute video. | ||
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Ninjury_J
Canada408 Posts
Good question. TheCore was designed to make sure that the most used commands and combinations in starcraft are mapped to the easiest to press keys on the keyboard. After getting tons of data on pro players, the developers recognized how important the Shift key is. They set out to build a layout which could easily press Shift, with the most access to as many other comfortable-to-press keys as possible, including ctrl. With tons of feedback and a great deal of conversation, empirical testing, and trial and error, TheCore is IMO one of the most efficient and comfortable layouts designed for Sc2. This layout is not designed for one person, but currently has 48 versions to satisfy hand size, dominant hand type, race, and whether or not a user wants to use mouse buttons. Please note, TheCore is in the middle of some significant redesign because of some recent awesome developments. As a long time user of TheCore, I would highly encourage you to give it a try if you have the time. It takes about 30-50 games for new users coming from standard or grid to learn, IMO. I can almost guarantee it will make your SC2 experience more comfortable. If you try it or if you don't, I will be happy to answer any questions you may have. Cheers, Ninjury Edit: Thayneq proved smarter than I am, and simply pointed out Jak's answer to your question. I think you should watch that, as he does a much better job of answering than I do | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
Thou shalt not ask questions about the 1.0 doc. It is there for the people who can figure it out for themselves. As soon as I get everything set I'll release the info and the files with nothing missing and all of the ducks in a row. For now, journey at your own risk. | ||
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Smackzilla
United States539 Posts
1) *really* like next/prev subgroup on the mouse 2) Build basic on / doesn't bother me. Shift-building depots isn't a problem. 3) Build basic on ' probably is better. | ||
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ShaolinZorg
Belgium47 Posts
I made a slight optimisation (at least i think it is more optimal) for right handed small keyboard, i think it should work for medium layout too : 1) move all the arrows bindings to WASD (camera movement); After all, if you have to move your hand , moving it to WASD will not cost much more, if you are a FPS player then you will find it even more natural edit : There is a conflict with the D letter but there is no warning about it ! : go to Global -> Observer and re assign structure leaderboard (to shift-D for instance) 2) assign the left arrow key to Base Camera or whatever you need, it is now easily and quickly reachable with a small extension of your thumb 3) I have a medium-large hand BUT i use the small layout, that way, and because of modification 1) , my thumb can also easily access all the arrows for whatever needs (I have set camera jump aliases in my case) I cannot find the small keyboard layout (PRSM) int the 1.0 archive, will it be supported in final release ? | ||
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sanddbox_sc2
United States173 Posts
On March 27 2013 00:36 Crosswind wrote: WELL NOW YOU ARE IMPUGNING MY STRATEGIC MASTERY SIR. I (and, I think, a lot of other people) hotkey scouting probes, for the purposes of using double-tap to move the camera to them. That scouting probe frequently is in charge of building things, like hatch-blocking pylons, proxy pylons, cannons. Likewise, when you're Forge Fast Expanding, you frequently want to hotkey the probe that is down there building stuff/poking around, for easy access. Any particular reason not to? -Cross Just hotkey it to a regular hotkey until you have to override it later. I usually put probes on my "special" hotkey (sort of my catch-all control group for units that don't have a designated control group), this was W when I played standard and ' now. In early game Protoss you can just put it on your first or second control group, since you'll only need that probe before you have any units on the field. Keeping a builder probe hotkeyed all game is just silly; you'll pull him off the patch when he's still mining and it'll probably get confusing if he dies. Just camera hotkey back to base and select a probe who has just returned his minerals. | ||
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