EPT[G] TheCore - Advanced Keyboard Layout - Page 161
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thayneq
96 Posts
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fengshaun
149 Posts
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JDub
United States976 Posts
On March 28 2013 08:30 fengshaun wrote: @JDub: Are you "[Dabney] JDubs" in-game? No. I'm [Epic] JDub in game. You can watch me play on Day[9]'s stream in about an hour when he casts the AHGL. | ||
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fengshaun
149 Posts
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furyofSkanks
32 Posts
On March 25 2013 12:01 Spaceboy wrote: @Ninjury/Thayneq For timing injects I've taken from a tip from JEcho who went through his method once on his stream.. and it happens to fit perfectly with TheCore. Basically all you do is constantly tap between Hatch "CG>Select Larva>Hatch CG>Select Larva"... etc etc. That way as soon as you have any new larva you'll immediately see it pop up on the command card.. and what does a bunch of new larva mean? That's right, an inject just popped off and needs redoing. This is good I've never thought of this, this will work if you don't mind trying to remember how much larva you had last time you injected..... and you can pre-calculate in your head exactly how much larva you will have when it's time for the next injection cycle. (Let me re-think that... NO WAY!... This can't work... if your being attacked and all the sudden you have to spend larva, your count is off and you'll forget when to inject!) But I'm glad you posted it, as I will try using it as yet another crutch to help me get perfect injects. I never thought of this...I think it's both okay and bad at the same time but better then not knowing about this! PS I do use -... as a control group for my main for the inject timer purposes... I think using 1 CG for this purpose is great. I think it is super awesome and is no way a waste of a command group. You should try it! Also, you really want to get all your hatcheries synced up, you don't want 3 or 4 hatches all doing weird inject timings it's way too difficult then. (NOT FEASIBLE) Why 1 CG for inject timer isn't bad: A) You will use it to upgrade to lair, hive B) It's the most reliable way of getting your inject timing spot on. C) Selecting all your queens and using the mouse hovering over the wire-frames with the mouse is bad. You can't assume you will have perfect injects and will never miss an inject and it's way too slow with multiple queens. Also it forces you to not put creep spreading queens on this hotkey... which is often I think perfectly fine and good to do. (ALL QUEENS is sometimes better then splitting off a creep splitting queen etc... At least I think... (I do both) ) More on this... there are times when it makes sense to save your queen energy for transfuse once this happens everything goes to h#$l D) 9 control groups + 1 for inject timer is plenty PS---- I hotkey my first 3 hatches to a CG, and also hotkey other building to them like evo chambers and spires etc.... (All overlords and creep spread goes on 9, as well as my 3rd hatch.. at my 3rd not a macro hatch etc...) So you can layer your command groups just as you do with the core for your camera keys... it's just 1 more layer of layering and I see no reason not to do this. That leaves me with 6 groups just for units, that's a crap ton of CG's! I also use 0 for my 2nd hatch and all overseers. I'll also usually hotkey an overseer with my ranged units as well. This helps me not make too many overseers and check to see how much energy they have... Using the wireframe and the mouse. I overlap or layer my Command groups so I can have more then 9 things on 9 of them get it? There is no reason why for example you shouldn't put your evo chambers and spire / roach buildings on the same hotkey you usually use for your lings for example. (I just don't personally) --- These buildings on that same CG won't screw anything up for you. Because of this layering or overlapping of command groups... you don't really even need 10 CG's but I still use them all. Keep in mind that there are GM's who publicly say people should never use more then 3CG's for your army, you know who APOLLO is? That famous coach / pro player... he is in this group. He thinks 1a 2a 3a is actually TOO SLOW FOR SOME PLAYERS! , although reasonable to do. When I talked to a few high masters for advice on my starcraft game, they freaked out when they seen my hotkeys. I told them to check out the core, and they did, and they all dis-approved... but I KNOW BETTER! I'm just saying using to many command groups for your units definitely has a down side. It's actually slower to move your army or to even set up flanks and surround your enemy with multiple CGS. I like the core and the option to use all of your hotkeys is cool (I think anyways, but I acknowledge that you can't move your whole army or coordinate it very well if it's on 6 different command groups! ) If you use more then 4 command groups for your army you will end up using the all units hotkey often, or just boxing them all anyways. Again I use 6 for my army but in practice only 3 or 4... I have 1 CG that I only use for infestors or vipers... 1 that I only use for anti air and brood lords... and 1 hotkey that I only use for mutas... In most games... I'll never have mutas brood/lords infestors and vipers in just 1 game. ( I mean it does / can happen but in general it won't happen all at the same time. ) | ||
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furyofSkanks
32 Posts
On March 25 2013 12:33 Ninjury_J wrote: @Feng, In theory an ov cg can help spread creep highways, and help to pull back all ovs if harassed by mutas or phoenix. TLO is a proponent of it. I feel cgs can be of better use, personally. Maybe I am wrong. I just tested this: if you have no larva and press POPO faster than one game second, it recalls back to hatch. Solution: check frequently but less fast, or wait a beat between O and P. Feng, consider putting upgrade buildings and overlords, creep tumors, creep spreading queens and perhaps a hatchery all on 1 command group. I don't think it makes sense to leave just 1 CG just for overlords... but I see no reason not use 1 command group for all of these things. THink of it as a utility hotkey, so you can get all of your base upgrades everything without actually having to go to your base in game. (Move camera to your base) | ||
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furyofSkanks
32 Posts
On March 26 2013 02:12 thayneq wrote: since we're talking about thumbs, I'll throw out a mod I made (that I really like). I changed cancel (F8) to enter. I find that I'm using cancel quite a bit. The most common is when I'm injecting but my queen is less than 25 energy, so I have to cancel that action and come back to it. F8 is so far away that I always have to look at the keyboard or I miss it. I tried putting this on enter (for my thumb) and it was a ton easier. What are you thoughts? I made this change as well for a while and after about 25 games, I thought it was a mistake because you could press enter and have it mess up your micro. Example: you use ] for infestors while holding down the IT button and clicking with your left mouse button you hit enter by mistake in a large battle. YOUR infestors all now move to where your spawning IT's and all die because of this mis-click. ENTER is a bad key... it's the same reason why ENTER isn't suitable for activating the chat box. Because Enter is all around your command groups and shift etc... your going to press it by accident it's a BIG key.... it should be a harmless key. This is why I endorse the idle worker button be on Enter because 99% of the time you won't have idle workers and pressing it by accident is unlikely to mess you up when it counts. (Just what I've found from trial and error) Good luck | ||
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fengshaun
149 Posts
On March 28 2013 12:27 furyofSkanks wrote: Feng, consider putting upgrade buildings and overlords, creep tumors, creep spreading queens and perhaps a hatchery all on 1 command group. I don't think it makes sense to leave just 1 CG just for overlords... but I see no reason not use 1 command group for all of these things. THink of it as a utility hotkey, so you can get all of your base upgrades everything without actually having to go to your base in game. (Move camera to your base) That's called chaos, and I highly dislike it. If I have to tab through numerous unrelated thing to find something, I might as well just select it on the map! Plus, I'm ok with moving to my base once in a while. Base cams make it super quick! | ||
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furyofSkanks
32 Posts
On March 28 2013 16:05 fengshaun wrote: That's called chaos, and I highly dislike it. If I have to tab through numerous unrelated thing to find something, I might as well just select it on the map! Plus, I'm ok with moving to my base once in a while. Base cams make it super quick! Well to each there own, but you should experiment with it before knocking it. It's not as bad as it sounds why? Because A) overlords will always be the primary unit so just hitting that utility key once would always select them... That's because there spell casters.... Few people know this... but if you for example put your evoloution chambers and your lings on for example the same hotkey.... your lings would function the same way as if the evoloution chambers were not on that hotkey. (My point is... You would never ever know it was there unless you accidently hit tab when your lings were selected. ) Also*** Most people think that if you overload a hot key the order you insert the unit is the last accessed.... This is not completely true as spell casters always come first, then units without abilities, then buildings. My point is.... if your going to put your overlords on 1 CG ... there is no reason to not put buildings on it as well, as there is 0 drawback to this. Hitting the CG once would just select your overlords just as if the buildings weren't there. B) with the forward and back buttons on the mouse it's really easy to select through with your thumb just to check up on your upgrades. B), the hatch will be just 1 tab away C) with THE CORES handy alt button for center selected unit just tabbing to creep tumors then pressing alt will just bring you right to the tumor to spread creep with... .it's pretty slick. So it would just be 9 mouse button mouse button alt... not hard. When you think about it... it's just about as fast as what psy starcraft used to do for his injects by pressing 66 tab v for inject . Also... this is only 1 hotkey the others you wouldn't overload so everything else is fast... it's just a way for you to get more stuff on your CG's that you wouldn't check or use that often. But when you need it... it's there and that's awesome! I don't recommend you do this with everything the CORE has many slots for hotkeys just doing it with 1 though makes sense to me though. So NO!!! IT IS NOT CHAOS! It's very organized and efficient. The CORE makes it super easy to add units to groups and buildings... I recommend considering taking advantage of this. | ||
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Ninjury_J
Canada408 Posts
I think putting upgrades, a hatch, a queen, overlords and all tumours on one cg is chaotic in a sense. However, I think in general you may be on to something. Instead of major overloading one control group, why not minor overload all of the others? This works well for Zerg, who almost always (and only) has one research building per unit. Upgrades (spire and evo) stay on cg2 with injecting queens. Spawning pool goes with lings, bane nest with banes, roach warren and hydra den with army, infestation pit with both infestors and swarm hosts (or one), ultra den with whatever group ultras are on. This eliminates the huge amounts of double pressing Zerg has to do with select next or previous subgroup, and importantly, makes each upgrade/research easier snd faster to find. (Memorizing the order of selection is a pain with 9 things on one cg, especially if you usually have only 7 or 8 out of those 9 per game. Plus, if something gets snipped, you need to remember where that was in the order, and need to account for it). I don't know if this can work for the other races. @ Jak, Would you be able to please let us know the new buttons for free cameras? I suspect they are on ctrl I/R and ctrl J/G for PTR and ctrl O/E and ctrl J/G for Z. Is this true? | ||
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codonbyte
United States840 Posts
On March 16 2013 04:49 Snoodles wrote: As a user of both Dvorak AND the core, I agree. This layout is pretty brilliant, and should have been discovered years ago. Watch any pro players from korea, the fastest guys in the world, and their hands are dancing all over the keyboard to reach F1 and shift and backspace. Imagine how much faster they would be if thecore becomes a thing. Snoodles! Haven't I seen you in SC2 streams? It's cool that you use the Dvorak layout. I never knew that. When did you first switch over from QWERTY to Dvorak, and what motivated you to switch? How long did you take to match your QWERTY speed on Dvorak? | ||
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furyofSkanks
32 Posts
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sanddbox_sc2
United States173 Posts
On March 28 2013 12:22 furyofSkanks wrote: This is good I've never thought of this, this will work if you don't mind trying to remember how much larva you had last time you injected..... and you can pre-calculate in your head exactly how much larva you will have when it's time for the next injection cycle. (Let me re-think that... NO WAY!... This can't work... if your being attacked and all the sudden you have to spend larva, your count is off and you'll forget when to inject!) This is another thing I've noticed - most noobs tend to overthink the game a lot, especially when it comes to mechanics. Rules like "build an overlord 10 seconds after an inject" or something are great, but they need to be seen more as guidelines than strict rules per se. In this case, you're not counting your larva and calculating exactly when you've gained 4 larva from the injects (injects do give 4 larva, right?). You're just sort of passively monitoring it by consistently tapping your hatches-select larva (in my case, I press [ and p). When you detect that you've gained a swell of larva, tap your queens if you hotkey them separately, or, alternatively, use your camera hotkeys to check your hatches (if you keep your queens on individual hotkeys). On March 28 2013 12:22 furyofSkanks wrote: Why 1 CG for inject timer isn't bad: A) You will use it to upgrade to lair, hive B) It's the most reliable way of getting your inject timing spot on. C) Selecting all your queens and using the mouse hovering over the wire-frames with the mouse is bad. You can't assume you will have perfect injects and will never miss an inject and it's way too slow with multiple queens. Also it forces you to not put creep spreading queens on this hotkey... which is often I think perfectly fine and good to do. (ALL QUEENS is sometimes better then splitting off a creep splitting queen etc... At least I think... (I do both) ) More on this... there are times when it makes sense to save your queen energy for transfuse once this happens everything goes to h#$l D) 9 control groups + 1 for inject timer is plenty PS---- I hotkey my first 3 hatches to a CG, and also hotkey other building to them like evo chambers and spires etc.... (All overlords and creep spread goes on 9, as well as my 3rd hatch.. at my 3rd not a macro hatch etc...) So you can layer your command groups just as you do with the core for your camera keys... it's just 1 more layer of layering and I see no reason not to do this. Once again, you are WAY over-thinking this. Besides, you can't assume your queens will always be in sync. I also don't know why you're against hotkeying creep queens. On March 28 2013 12:22 furyofSkanks wrote: Keep in mind that there are GM's who publicly say people should never use more then 3CG's for your army, you know who APOLLO is? That famous coach / pro player... he is in this group. He thinks 1a 2a 3a is actually TOO SLOW FOR SOME PLAYERS! , although reasonable to do. When I talked to a few high masters for advice on my starcraft game, they freaked out when they seen my hotkeys. I told them to check out the core, and they did, and they all dis-approved... but I KNOW BETTER! I'm just saying using to many command groups for your units definitely has a down side. It's actually slower to move your army or to even set up flanks and surround your enemy with multiple CGS. I like the core and the option to use all of your hotkeys is cool (I think anyways, but I acknowledge that you can't move your whole army or coordinate it very well if it's on 6 different command groups! ) If you use more then 4 command groups for your army you will end up using the all units hotkey often, or just boxing them all anyways. Again I use 6 for my army but in practice only 3 or 4... I have 1 CG that I only use for infestors or vipers... 1 that I only use for anti air and brood lords... and 1 hotkey that I only use for mutas... This part I agree with. You need to view every control group as an expense that is costly to maintain. The more control groups you have, the more you'll need to constantly rebind groups, etc. Basically, you need to decide if the added control is worth the additional control groups. As an example of this principle, I keep lings and banelings on separate hotkeys in early game ZvZ, but once the midgame is reached I just keep them all on my first control group. In the late game, I'm using 3-4 control groups, though, because in HOTS Zerg has a TON of units to use in the lategame. | ||
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fengshaun
149 Posts
@spaceboy: following what you said about the POPO method (weird name?) of keeping track of injects (the one JEcho told you about), I came up with a way to use that to also keep tabs on supply. If anybody wants to chime in and optimize the idea to make it more effective and easier for new players, please go to TheStaircase (improvement method by TheJak himself): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374400¤tpage=34#663 I think it would help a lot of people stuck with supply blocks! | ||
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sanddbox_sc2
United States173 Posts
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fengshaun
149 Posts
On March 29 2013 03:00 sanddbox_sc2 wrote: I still can't see this as anything else than overthinking it. You don't need a formula to make overlords. Maybe for you it's overthinking. For me, I need something to improve on. Saying "just make ovies when you need them" is like saying "just improve your macro". Nothing concrete there to improve on, and I don't like that! This, obviously, is not for everyone. | ||
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rogor
France5 Posts
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fengshaun
149 Posts
On March 29 2013 03:13 rogor wrote: I am currently using the standard hotkeys layout and I would like to try out TheCore. I see there is a 1.0 version that will come out, do you think I should try the current version or should I better wait for the release of 1.0 ? too many changes, wait for 1.0! | ||
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sanddbox_sc2
United States173 Posts
On March 29 2013 03:02 fengshaun wrote: Maybe for you it's overthinking. For me, I need something to improve on. Saying "just make ovies when you need them" is like saying "just improve your macro". Nothing concrete there to improve on, and I don't like that! This, obviously, is not for everyone. I think that using an equation to model it is only going to give you a false impression of what expert play looks like, though. You can still analyze your macro without using an equation. Supply is mainly about two principles - (1) make enough supply so that you don't get supply blocked, (2) make as little supply as possible while still satisfying (1). Although there's actually some cases where being supply blocked for a short time is most economically optimal. Like I said earlier, though, I'm not opposed to using rules like "two overlords every inject" or something as long as it's understood that they're guidelines to improve upon. | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
This may be an example of Numbers to Leave Numbers I love the idea of having the spawning pool on the CG where the zerglings generally are etc. I think it can work for other races too. I'm going to start testing this out immediately and would appreciate anyone interested to share their experience with this idea. Also I'll be making some moderate sized updates on the 1.0 document today for you brave folk who journey into the darkness of the alpha  | ||
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