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On June 07 2012 19:23 Insoleet wrote:
Hello there
I have 2 questions
- Can we use this layout with an azerty keyboard ?
- Do we have to remove the keys absolutly ? Or can we use this layout without destroying our keyboard ?
Thanks again !
I have 2 answers
-To use this keyboard with a non-qwerty keyboard you will have to make some changes. Luckily many of the keys are the same with azerty, so i would suggest downloading the file, and then editing it via "find and replace" ex. find and replace all Q's with A's etc etc. We will be working on support for other keyboards in the future, however, for now, look through the thread to make sure no one else has uploaded a version for your keyboard, and if this is true, make your own version and post it here.
-Removing the keys from your keyboard is strongly suggested. It will make hitting shift, ctrl, alt, ".", and / much easier and you don't need those keys for anything anyway... However, if you need that aesthetic, it's not 100% necessary to remove them, just non-ergonomic and uncomfortable.
ALSO: For everyone else, I'm working out different solutions on the "casters on L" issue. Part of me wants to put casters as high on the priority list as home keys on the mouse enhanced versions (that way you would have army and casters as your two control groups for P and O. For the regular versions I'll have to take a deeper look.
EDIT: I'm messing around with something and I'd like you to let me know how it feels after testing it. For RRM and RLM, have army on ; and keep casters on L. Move the subdivisions of the main army (zeal/stalker for example) to 9 and 0. This creates a sort of two position feel, JIOP for macro and JKL; or JIL; for micro. Let me know how this feels please.
Whenever posting a solution or a problem, please state which version of the layout you are using. This makes a sizable difference and it would help to avoid confusion as well as solve problems faster.
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My personal preference when it comes to Zerg, would be to not actually have any produce unit key on the same key as select larva. As it is now, I'm making so many overlords by accident.
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On June 07 2012 22:39 Tzuborg wrote:
My personal preference when it comes to Zerg, would be to not actually have any produce unit key on the same key as select larva. As it is now, I'm making so many overlords by accident.
That happens, but then you get used to it and stop. I heard somewhere that Stephano rebound Select Larvae and Drone to the A key, so he could just double-tap and hold A to get all the drones he wanted. But that (making extra Overlords) is why I rebound Drone to I and Overlord to J; try it, maybe?
@JaK:
I'm using Core right-handed without the mouse buttons.
re: new army hotkeys
I still like 90[ because I need three hotkeys available with the home fingers for ling/muta/bling. Unless you were thinking of totally overhauling the system, in which case I'll gladly help test it.
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It looks so promising but then I see that it's a layout where I put my hand on JIOP... and I bail. It's just not comfortable for my big hands to not make a mistake there. Also, your pinky finger is usually the weakest finger of all, yet your layout is based upon utilizing your pinky quite much on spells.
Edit: I'd have to pop my enter key out. And sorry but I don't do popping keys.
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On June 07 2012 23:43 poeticEnnui wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 22:39 Tzuborg wrote:
My personal preference when it comes to Zerg, would be to not actually have any produce unit key on the same key as select larva. As it is now, I'm making so many overlords by accident. That happens, but then you get used to it and stop. I heard somewhere that Stephano rebound Select Larvae and Drone to the A key, so he could just double-tap and hold A to get all the drones he wanted. But that (making extra Overlords) is why I rebound Drone to I and Overlord to J; try it, maybe? @JaK: I'm using Core right-handed without the mouse buttons. re: new army hotkeys I still like 90[ because I need three hotkeys available with the home fingers for ling/muta/bling. Unless you were thinking of totally overhauling the system, in which case I'll gladly help test it.
We're definitely looking at the control groups from scratch again. Some things to keep in mind, when looking for solutions:
-The army key should be pressed with a different finger than spellcasters and CGs of units that are also in the main army (zealots, stalkers, maybe tank/ghost, medivac, and broodlords too)
-The remaining keys are harass keys and should be easy to do multiple pronged harass with.
If you're going 90[ for ling/muta/bane, what is your main army on? Is it easy to add units to both the main army and each of these groups as they come out?
On June 08 2012 00:28 Aelonius wrote:
It looks so promising but then I see that it's a layout where I put my hand on JIOP... and I bail. It's just not comfortable for my big hands to not make a mistake there. Also, your pinky finger is usually the weakest finger of all, yet your layout is based upon utilizing your pinky quite much on spells.
Edit: I'd have to pop my enter key out. And sorry but I don't do popping keys.
We will be expanding for people with bigger hands. With your thumb able to hit shift+control, what is the most comfortable homekey position for you?
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First off, great work on the layout, it's awkward to get used to, but it actually feels really good not to have my fingers dance around my keyboard hitting hotkeys all the time. Still not used to it completely, but hopefully that'l come with practice.
A few personal changes to RRM I've made as a Protoss player:
Warp In: From 6 to '/" ( or ACUTE/CEDILLA as b.net tells me)
It does overwrite jump to location 6 (which I personally don't use it, 5 locations are enough for me) but I feel it's much less awkward then going all the way to 6.
Probe - Warp In Photon Cannon/Warp in Robotics Bay: Both from M to , (comma)
Doesn't overwrite any other keybinds. and it's one key closer to the Build/Buid Advanced key, and is much more comfortable.
Edit -
Warp In High Templar can also be bound from M to comma. Or added as alternative hotkey.
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When I look at layouts and my keyboard I still feel that my left hand shift is the best position. My middle finger usually rests on W, but my hand can easily reach Lshift-U with Pinky/Index without overstretching.
I suffer from an issue where my brain doesn't translate motion as well as others. Especially fine, detailed movement such as rapid keypresses in succession. Now I struggled with learning Darkgrid (and kind of gave up) as it's too cramped for my big hands. This one is kind of the same thing, so how would you suggest I keep this in mind? Or should I just stick to my Standard(modified) keybinds?
Edit: The above issue is very noticable on my pinky and ring finger.
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but my hand can easily reach Lshift-U with Pinky/Index without overstretching.
they key here is reach. Why reach for the most used key in the game, when you could "not reach" for it? Especially considering your below mentioned condition.
On June 08 2012 01:52 Aelonius wrote:
I suffer from an issue where my brain doesn't translate motion as well as others. Especially fine, detailed movement such as rapid keypresses in succession. Now I struggled with learning Darkgrid (and kind of gave up) as it's too cramped for my big hands. This one is kind of the same thing, so how would you suggest I keep this in mind? Or should I just stick to my Standard(modified) keybinds?
Edit: The above issue is very noticable on my pinky and ring finger.
I would say the best solution for you would be to develop a custom layout that spreads the keys out a bit more. However, this layout doesn't require any more fine tuned presses than a standard layout. One key distance is still the minimum accuracy, its just that the commands are put on their most efficient key.
On June 08 2012 01:12 Iryerris wrote:
First off, great work on the layout, it's awkward to get used to, but it actually feels really good not to have my fingers dance around my keyboard hitting hotkeys all the time. Still not used to it completely, but hopefully that'l come with practice.
A few personal changes to RRM I've made as a Protoss player:
Warp In: From 6 to '/" ( or ACUTE/CEDILLA as b.net tells me)
It does overwrite jump to location 6 (which I personally don't use it, 5 locations are enough for me) but I feel it's much less awkward then going all the way to 6.
Probe - Warp In Photon Cannon/Warp in Robotics Bay: Both from M to , (comma)
Doesn't overwrite any other keybinds. and it's one key closer to the Build/Buid Advanced key, and is much more comfortable.
Edit -
Warp In High Templar can also be bound from M to comma. Or added as alternative hotkey.
Warpgate will be stylistic thing. We believe that tabbed production with warpgates is more efficient than the warpgate key. Feel free to fuck around with things to suit your needs :D
However, changing it to "/" takes away all of your non-shift unit abilities and the build basic key... Did you mean "\" on qwerty?
The changing from M to "," is very interesting. Are you hitting the build advanced button with your thumb? This seems like an uncomfortable combination to me.
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On June 08 2012 02:50 JaKaTaK wrote:
Warpgate will be stylistic thing. We believe that tabbed production with warpgates is more efficient than the warpgate key. Feel free to fuck around with things to suit your needs :D
However, changing it to "/" takes away all of your non-shift unit abilities and the build basic key... Did you mean "\" on qwerty?
Ah sorry, I mean the (") key (the key above / and left of enter)
The changing from M to "," is very interesting. Are you hitting the build advanced button with your thumb? This seems like an uncomfortable combination to me.
Yeah, I do use my thumb for build and build advanced, guess it's just how I happened to use it. Changing it to , meant I could slide my finger from build advanced to the next key and instantly get Robo Bay.
Don't know if you intended the build basic/build advanced to be hit by index/middle fingers, if so, I've probably been using it wrong :D
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played about 6 or 7 games with this new set up and ive noticed im floating alot more minerals using this hotkey setup but ive developed a higher apm... about a third to 2 thirds higher. however im not sure if im macroing better than before scv-wise compared to before 
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On June 08 2012 01:01 JaKaTaK wrote:We're definitely looking at the control groups from scratch again. Some things to keep in mind, when looking for solutions:
-The army key should be pressed with a different finger than spellcasters and CGs of units that are also in the main army (zealots, stalkers, maybe tank/ghost, medivac, and broodlords too)
-The remaining keys are harass keys and should be easy to do multiple pronged harass with.
If you're going 90[ for ling/muta/bane, what is your main army on? Is it easy to add units to both the main army and each of these groups as they come out?
Ling/Muta/Bane IS the main army -- I just shift-add new units as they rally. I rest my pinky on J and my ring, middle, and index fingers on 90[.
Otherwise, the "main army" is on 9.
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So in other news, I use a blank Unicomp keyboard -- I think I might, once the final version arrives, buy some blank colored keycaps and colorcode the main keys of the layout on my physical keyboard.
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Oh. In the spirit of total optimization, you should release a layout for this keyboard layout...
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@Iryerris The thumb is supposed to be used for build basic and advanced. You got it right. For me its always felt more comfortable to hit M rather than "," but everyone's got their own style.
@hustle The most likely reason why you are floating more minerals is because your hands are still getting use to the setup, so you have to spend more focus on pressing buttons instead of spending minerals. You should be able to get your average unspent resources down as you get more accustomed to the layout.
@poetic I've toyed with the idea of not having 1 control group that has all the non-harass units in it. saves you a control group, but adds more clicking when you want to use everything together. Long term though, its probably the best move, IMO.
I already linked that keyboard layout in this thread. Its really cool, Foxy uses it. It would be cool if we moved on from the qwerty and to a brighter tomorrow
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hey Where can i find the training maps talked about and used in the videos
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German keyboard (right-handed, +mouse-buttons) updated here. (I know, I am an attention whore... :-D )
Outdated!!!
Please use this
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RRM no mouse: So here are my thoughts on the control group issue. L is a good control group I think just not for anything that you need to control in combination with your main army. For example from my terran perspective I can see myself having harass stuff on L or medivacs, harass etc. The only time L becomes a problem is if it is assigned to a unit which you constantly go back and fourth between since it means that you are using the same finger for both of them. Bottom line, for templar and ghosts you want them on a hotkey that you push with the index finger. Then I kinda feel that which one you choose is probably a bit individual. Using 0 probably works good but it all depends, for example I have vikings on 0 specifically because of tvp where I want to be able to move bio and vikings back individually. This has left me with putting ghosts on [ which I feel is pretty good as well.
9, L imo should be used for important stuff that is rarely controlled at the same time.
0, [ and ; should be used for important stuff that is usually controlled very closely with your main army, for terran tanks and ghosts.
the remaining keys, and any of the above that you don't use for army stuff should be used for harass and more niche stuff.
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@warburp training maps are coming eventually. You can use the training methods described in the OP until someone has the time to make the maps :D
@asdir, thanks for the german keyboard, care to do one of the other 3 remaining versions as well? I promise to give you more attention!
@vangarde, cool cool man. Thanks for the feedback.
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@JaKaTaK ok thanks i was asking because he used a few in the videos and id like to use them to get some practice down particularly with larvae injects because thats a bit clunky for me atm b is too far from shift
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From my own experience so far I have some suggestions on a good progression for practicing this. Basically if you make a transition to a hotkey setup that is somewhat similar to your old, it is not that painful of a process. I once redid all of my spells and control groups with standard, but that was not so bad because I still had the same macro keys to sort of hold me up. A complete switch like this though is a lot harder and personally I suggest that you do it in tiers.
Tier 1: Just macro against no opponent in custom. Try to layer your games, first just play a game where you make only workers, expansions and supply and nothing else and just do it until you are maxed. When you feel comfortable you add on more stuff, if you are terran add gas and raxes and do the same constant workers and supply and expansions while just adding more and more raxes and making pure bio until you are maxed, then start over. Then add all production, factories and starports and do the same but macro up an army consisting of everything that does not require special tech structures. Then you add in upgrades too etc. You get the picture, just keep playing over and over again until you max out. This is really dull but very worth doing for maybe 20 games if you have the time. When you add in unit production, make a point to bind units you make to their control groups, without bothering to learn spells and commands for them, just make sure you bind them so you learn the controlgroups.
Tier 2: Play against the very hard ai. The ai for once serves a good purpose because it attacks you, it is still retarded and you can beat the very hard ai with good macro, I guess if you do struggle just go for hard ai or something. The only point is that you want to do what you did in tier 1, just macro away but you want some pressure be put on you, you want the ai to attack to force you to react, to repair bunkers, to use unit control. The upside is that against the ai you can do that very crudely and still get away with it, you just want to be forced to think and react because I assure you, your perfect macro from tier 1 is going to get shattered the second you face any pressure.
Tier 3: Micro tester. This one should really be done from here on out and throughout the rest of your transitioning. Get someone who is willing to play out army engagements against you in the micro tester, an awesome custom map that allows you to spawn a full army instantly and then fight out a battle. This combined with tier 2 will give you all the basics you need to start intuitively controlling your units again.
Tier 4: Real games without pressure. Time to ladder, but it is just going to ruin your self esteem if you do not do this one with a very casual attitude. If you have a smurf I really suggest playing in a lower league on that one, or just drop your main account if you don't care. If you have only a main account and you do care then play random 4v4 or FFA or something retarded that does not make you frustrated if you lose.
Tier 5: Back to where you left off. Once you are semi confident in your switch you go back to playing where you were before switching keys. Expect to still lose more games for some time especially if you were previously in masters or high diamond but once you get to this point you will have worked your mechanics back to a good enough point for this to be a very short period of lowered performance.
note: The reason I feel like you want to do tier 1, 2 and 3 before going into real games, even if you have a smurf that you really do not care about is that you learn so much faster if you add stuff in steps. Sure you can just start off instantly in bronze league but if you learn to macro fluently first against no opponent, those macro mechanics are going to be helping you so much when you learn to control your units and to deal with harass because you have worked one element into your muscle memory and it will act as a safe haven from which you can learn the rest. I have tried before to learn a new hotkey setup by learning everything at the same time and it is vastly more frustrating.
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On June 07 2012 22:09 JaKaTaK wrote:
EDIT: I'm messing around with something and I'd like you to let me know how it feels after testing it. For RRM and RLM, have army on ; and keep casters on L. Move the subdivisions of the main army (zeal/stalker for example) to 9 and 0. This creates a sort of two position feel, JIOP for macro and JKL; or JIL; for micro. Let me know how this feels please.
I'm really liking the sound of this idea. I think I'm going to mess around with it myself.
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JaKaTaK, could you please make layout maps which have all the relevant keys on them? I see how my control groups are laid out but not anything else. Or did i miss something?
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EPT
