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On June 09 2012 08:32 VanGarde wrote:
why is hellion on I and tank on J in all of the downloadable versions? Isn't it supposed to be the other way around?
Thats what I changed it too because in tvt your making marines tanks and medivacs so why not have everything be on I? Super easy. I also changed delete to the backspace key. F5 was too far away. Also changed the cameras to F6-F9 because I want to hit just one key and not have to fumble with shift and control, potentially messing up my control groups. Otherwise its a really fluid setup, I'm just starting to get used to it 
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On June 09 2012 16:06 Spiner wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 08:32 VanGarde wrote:
why is hellion on I and tank on J in all of the downloadable versions? Isn't it supposed to be the other way around? Thats what I changed it too because in tvt your making marines tanks and medivacs so why not have everything be on I? Super easy. I also changed delete to the backspace key. F5 was too far away. Also changed the cameras to F6-F9 because I want to hit just one key and not have to fumble with shift and control, potentially messing up my control groups. Otherwise its a really fluid setup, I'm just starting to get used to it
I know, the thing is I think it is SUPPOSED to be tanks in I in theCore, the data document says so too. So the entry in the hotkey layout is probably a mistake.
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The Core - German edition
Right-handed mouse with 4th and 5th button
Right-handed mouse without 4th and 5th button
Notes:
- If Jakatak meant with his last update just that he integrated all the changes talked about between the first beta and now (which were in the now deleted changelog, like scan on k and cameras on POIJ;), these versions should be up to date.
- Left-handed version: There seems to be an irreconcilable problem with the German keyboard. The left German Shift-key is only half as large as the American one. The missing half is replaced by the "<"-key between Shift and Y (the German Z). I tried to map "<" as an alternate Shift, so "<" would emulate the missing half of the Shift-key. However, SC2 does not recognize that key at all. No matter if I enter the new binding directly in the hotkey file or via the in-game editor, the program won't allow it. I am afraid German lefties are out of luck, because I think this will make the layout unplayable, even if the "<"-key is popped out. Any suggestions?
In other matters:
@Jakatak: Just for clarification, would you maybe write a changelog again, if you find the time? Otherwise it's hard to correctly update foreign versions. Pretty please?
@ksert: If Jakatak wants to provide the original layout-graphics-file (and if he used an open program(probably Inkscape?!?)) I just might. But then again, you could just as well do it yourself *wink wink* But seriously: I don't even think a picture for the German keyboard would help that much. It's all about positioning of fingers on the keyboard. That the key says "Ö" or ";" doesn't really matter for understanding the Core, I think.
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Changelog en route! I will put it back in as soon as I'm done posting this. Also, tank is supposed to be I and hellion J, Just fixed it in my files, and I'll add it to the changelog. Nice catch VanGarde.
@asdir thanks so much for adding in different versions! As far as lefty versions go...  The only way I can think of to fix that is to remap the < key to function as shift with a 3rd party program or mouse driver. Aside from that... Learn to play right handed  Sorry to all the lefty german sc2 players looking to compete in tournaments.
Changelog on the way!
EDIT: Changelog is there, lemme know if you find that anything is missing in there. I think I got it all, but I can't help feeling I missed something.
EDIT: Voltaire just gave me a new analyzer, and after running, it looks like we can move the "Next Subgroup" button up by 2 keys, making - and A control groups again and 9 and 4 into the new "Next Subgroup" buttons. Take a look at the Data Document if you want to see the numbers.
I feel like the index finger is a better button for the next subgroup button though. How do you all feel about it?
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@Next subgroup: Feels to me that the triplets 9OL and 0P; form a downward line each, which is easier to navigate for me. I guess it depends if you want to write that up to lack of muscle memory (in which case you could disregard it as a counter argument) or as a consistent discomfort (which would speak against switching - and 9). I think its real discomfort, though.
€dit:
@changelog: You missed scan on k, supply calldown on m(?) and cancel on F7, I think.
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got scan and calldown. I moved cancel to F8. Easier to grab and not fuck up as it is on the end of the 4 key block.
Thanks :D
EDIT: To all people working on versions of TheCore for different keyboards, I will copy your post and put it into the "Versions for non-QWERTY keyboards" Section. Please make your posts concerning your converted version as you would like them to appear in that section of the OP, and make updated posts/file for version 0.1 if you haven't already. Big thanks to you guys, we really appreciate it.
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i really liked the darkgrid style more where you had your right hand on the left side of the keyboard
is there any way to change the core so that I dont have to use the right side of the keyboard (POIJ) as a right hander
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On June 09 2012 00:53 JaKaTaK wrote:@Quaterno The load button is used pretty extensively by the Terran pros. (Look at the Data Document) Because this is for random players we had to make compromises, however, I am considering keeping this one on the race specific versions as well, because I can't see why a terran could make use of load while a zerg or protoss could not. Any ideas?
Hmmm, so does load just load the nearest units? I didn't realise people were using that, I thought that it was like the move command (does the same thing as just right clicking), my bad. I have always just boxed and right clicked on the dropships but I guess that would be faster to use load. I think tbh this should be more of use to zerg since zerg is more likely to use more dropships, I guess the data would just show terran using it more since they drop more.
Thanks for the response. I'll try burrow on 8 as you've put in the new version (was hesitant as my ring finger and pinky don't like doing things ) as that does seem better. Also, cancel on F8 is cool
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@maLaK1 having your hand on the right side of the keyboard as a right hander is the biggest advantage of this layout. Having you thumb press 5 buttons instead of 1 and resting on the most used key in the game (shift) is HUGE. Don't discount TheCore because it is strange and uncomfortable at first, I promise you will get comfortable with it in time, playing starcraft will be easier for you, and you will be playing faster than before.
@Quaterno Now that I am thinking about it, I am pretty sure that the number for load from the data doc is for all races combined. I'll see if I can get that worked out. I actually don't know what people use it for, but if the pros are using it, it's likely to be good for something. Gonna do some testing and see what's up.
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On June 10 2012 05:11 JaKaTaK wrote:
@maLaK1 having your hand on the right side of the keyboard as a right hander is the biggest advantage of this layout. Having you thumb press 5 buttons instead of 1 and resting on the most used key in the game (shift) is HUGE. Don't discount TheCore because it is strange and uncomfortable at first, I promise you will get comfortable with it in time, playing starcraft will be easier for you, and you will be playing faster than before.
i think its the worst thing about this layout, because while your thumb is closer to more keys
your thumb has also the least flexibilty and controll of all fingers
pushing down ctrl+shift to set the locations is horrible
theres no way thatyour thumb, while your fingers rest on
POIJ, can get easily and fast to alt shift ctrl or alternate between these
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On June 10 2012 06:38 maLaK1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 05:11 JaKaTaK wrote:
@maLaK1 having your hand on the right side of the keyboard as a right hander is the biggest advantage of this layout. Having you thumb press 5 buttons instead of 1 and resting on the most used key in the game (shift) is HUGE. Don't discount TheCore because it is strange and uncomfortable at first, I promise you will get comfortable with it in time, playing starcraft will be easier for you, and you will be playing faster than before.
i think its the worst thing about this layout, because while your thumb is closer to more keys your thumb has also the least flexibilty and controll of all fingers pushing down ctrl+shift to set the locations is horrible theres no way thatyour thumb, while your fingers rest on POIJ, can get easily and fast to alt shift ctrl or alternate between these
It's weird at first but it gets easy really quickly.
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On June 10 2012 06:38 maLaK1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 05:11 JaKaTaK wrote:
@maLaK1 having your hand on the right side of the keyboard as a right hander is the biggest advantage of this layout. Having you thumb press 5 buttons instead of 1 and resting on the most used key in the game (shift) is HUGE. Don't discount TheCore because it is strange and uncomfortable at first, I promise you will get comfortable with it in time, playing starcraft will be easier for you, and you will be playing faster than before.
i think its the worst thing about this layout, because while your thumb is closer to more keys your thumb has also the least flexibilty and controll of all fingers pushing down ctrl+shift to set the locations is horrible theres no way thatyour thumb, while your fingers rest on POIJ, can get easily and fast to alt shift ctrl or alternate between these
I would strongly suggest playing the layout before you try to give criticism.
1. Your thumb rests on shift, so there is no faster key.
2. Shift+Ctrl recalls locations, it doesn't set them.
3. Shift+Ctrl is actually very easy once you get used to it, and significantly faster than reaching for the F# keys.
4. There are almost no situations where you need to quickly switch between alt and Ctrl or shift.
5. Switching between Ctrl and shift requires very little strain and is faster than pressing with the pinky.
I understand it looks strange on paper. It will also feel strange until you get used to it. But it works better than Darkgrid, JaKaTaK Righty, Standard, Grid or Classic.
What you are doing right now, is like looking at a recipe and saying that it would be a terrible dish, without learning to cook it well or taste it.
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no what i'm doing is stating my opinion
I tested both and I like darkgrid better and I don't think shift +ctrl is easy once you get used to it, its just uncomfortable
that the thumb rests on shift doesnt mean that its fast, the thumb is unflexible and not easy to controll
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Getting more used to the layout, some pieces of macro like building different structures in one go and warping in different units still go wrong too many times, but I need to practice more.
Personal changes I've made:
After realizing that M is supposed to be hit with your pinky and not the thumb, I've added the alternative hotkey of N to all M hotkeys, it personally feels better, did unbound idle workers, moved that to 6.
I'm playing around with the Warp In units hotkey aswell, thinking either 0 or -. think - feels best since I can easily hit it with my index finger and not have it mess up my middle finger. It unbound the subgroup hotkey, so moved that to =(personally don't use that very much)
Added alternative for warping in Dark Templar: U. corresponds with build Dark Shrine so it makes sense for my brain, and I feel it's easier to hit over .
Sentry: swapped around the hotkeys for Hallucination and Guardian Shield, which I hope makes sense. It's quicker to use the thumb to hit / and pop GS and hit I for ForceField with the ringfinger, rather then having the ringfinger hit both of them.
Do have 3 unbound hotkeys: Create location 6 and Jump to Location 6 and 7.
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On June 10 2012 00:13 JaKaTaK wrote:Changelog en route! I will put it back in as soon as I'm done posting this. Also, tank is supposed to be I and hellion J, Just fixed it in my files, and I'll add it to the changelog. Nice catch VanGarde. @asdir thanks so much for adding in different versions! As far as lefty versions go... The only way I can think of to fix that is to remap the < key to function as shift with a 3rd party program or mouse driver. Aside from that... Learn to play right handed Sorry to all the lefty german sc2 players looking to compete in tournaments. Changelog on the way! EDIT: Changelog is there, lemme know if you find that anything is missing in there. I think I got it all, but I can't help feeling I missed something. EDIT: Voltaire just gave me a new analyzer, and after running, it looks like we can move the "Next Subgroup" button up by 2 keys, making - and A control groups again and 9 and 4 into the new "Next Subgroup" buttons. Take a look at the Data Document if you want to see the numbers.
I feel like the index finger is a better button for the next subgroup button though. How do you all feel about it?
tab on 9 is definitely more convenient for macroing no doubt. But then again having main army on 9 is also very convenient. I worry that moving main army to a different key would instead end up making army control harder
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@Iryerris You make a really good case for the hallucination / guardian shield switch. I am pretty sure I am going to do the same.
@VanGarde I've been doing Main Army on S ( ; ) I think having the army on the index finger is the best way to go because it avoids many repetitive finger strokes. It also lines up with spellcaster on D (L) very nicely giving you a micro and macro position.
@maLaK1 now that I understand you better, I can answer your original question. There is a way to have TheCore, but on the usual side of the keyboard, but it gives up all of the things that make TheCore what it is. Maybe after all the versions of TheCore are out I will have the time to adjust JaKaTaK Righty to reflect what I have learned from TheCore. Feel free to use our resources to create your own.
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On June 10 2012 08:50 JaKaTaK wrote:
@VanGarde I've been doing Main Army on S ( ; ) I think having the army on the index finger is the best way to go because it avoids many repetitive finger strokes. It also lines up with spellcaster on D (L) very nicely giving you a micro and macro position.
Hmm interesting, I moved ghosts from L to [ just for the reason that the swap from 9 to L was really bothersome in lategame TvP especially where I need to cycle 3 different control groups almost once every second or two seconds in some situations. Having ghosts on [ allowed me to use different fingers for those two, but if I do it your way and move bio to ; then I can put ghosts back on L. Yeah I think I like it on paper. Going to jump into games and see how it feels in reality.
One thing that comes to mind then is that if you have your strongest control groups on L, ; and I guess , then suddently it feels like K becomes a stronger key than I. Which would mean that it is possible that with that control group setup you want to swap the abilities for those two keys. Note I am not saying that with any kind of scientific authority That was just my gut reaction, since you have played with your keys like this for a bit what are your thoughts on that? Which key feels stronger for spells?
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On June 10 2012 06:38 maLaK1 wrote:
i think its the worst thing about this layout, because while your thumb is closer to more keys
your thumb has also the least flexibilty and controll of all fingers
your thumb has also the least flexibilty
I don't even...
maLaK1, have you ever played a console video game? how do you aim OR move? Do you use your pinky finger? No, you use your thumb, because it's the MOST flexible and has the most control of any finger. Hell, they define us as humans and differentiate us from other primates. I don't even understand where train of thought can come from...
I do think that the subgroup on 9 is very comfortable for production, but I agree with the thought that it is not optimal for army control groups, as I think it shifts too many control groups to the index finger. subgroup on "-" is fine in my eyes, since it opens up the middle finger to use 9 and 0 while your index finger manages all of the other control groups.
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I don't know, it might just be that I am now used to subgroup on - and bio on 9 but I played around with the other way around and I am not quite feeling it. Gonna stay with the original way for now.
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On June 10 2012 09:22 bgalang92 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 06:38 maLaK1 wrote:
i think its the worst thing about this layout, because while your thumb is closer to more keys
your thumb has also the least flexibilty and controll of all fingers
your thumb has also the least flexibiltyI don't even... maLaK1, have you ever played a console video game? how do you aim OR move? Do you use your pinky finger? No, you use your thumb, because it's the MOST flexible and has the most control of any finger. Hell, they define us as humans and differentiate us from other primates. I don't even understand where train of thought can come from... I do think that the subgroup on 9 is very comfortable for production, but I agree with the thought that it is not optimal for army control groups, as I think it shifts too many control groups to the index finger. subgroup on "-" is fine in my eyes, since it opens up the middle finger to use 9 and 0 while your index finger manages all of the other control groups.
yeah, when I was reading maLaK1's posts i was going "i am sensing some unbelievable stupidity here, but i cant put my finger on it." thank you for pointing out that minor pertinent detail...
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EPT
