EPT[G] TheCore - Advanced Keyboard Layout - Page 13
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FoxyMayhem
624 Posts
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matrius
100 Posts
I'm setting up a new control system for a speedpad: http://www.amazon.com/Belkin-F8GFPC100-Nostromo-Speedpad-n52/dp/B0000DC643/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1339272751&sr=8-1 so I don't really need the keybindings that you are creating for a standard keyboard, but I should would like to know about the ideas/strategies that you have for how you are creating the keybindings, as alluded to above. Do you have any document that describes your plan of attack for this? And pitfalls that you have encountered and how you worked around? I know you may not have a doc with details already, but even a few sentences about what you have found to be the best approach and what are the worst pitfalls would really help me out... Thank you! Mark | ||
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BronzeVirus
United States7 Posts
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
@matrius We have the development document and data document (in the OP). Feel free to PM me and I'll give you my skype and I'll help you out with your version | ||
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FoxyMayhem
624 Posts
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iTzSnypah
United States1738 Posts
The data there could help refine my current hotkeys but I don't understand half of it. | ||
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maLaK1
Germany124 Posts
theres a huge difference between a gamepad and a keyboard, do you have an idea what it is, no? ok take your both hands and position them like you would when you were holding a gamepad notice something? wow you can move your thumb around easily because its on top now lay them on your keyboard and try moving around your thumb while you have your other 4 fingers ON the keyboar especially move your thumb from ALT to pressing both ctrl and shift oh guess what you cant move around the thumb so easily anymore it isNOT the most flexible finger to use in this situation because of 1 the ange it lies on shift 2 THE REACH you dont have theres a reason you use your thumb only for space while (touch)typing and its that you'd have to angle it to hit other keys now if you still dont understand just take your left hand on the keyboard put the first 4 fingers on A WER, pres them now alternate between pressing VBN and Space with your Thumb are you trying to tell me that that is as comfortable fast and flexible as using the other fingers? NO and I don't believe its a matter of practice, since the problem lies in the way the thumb is resting on these keys | ||
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uoeahtns
52 Posts
On June 10 2012 17:53 maLaK1 wrote: how about you think before posting theres a huge difference between a gamepad and a keyboard, do you have an idea what it is, no? ok take your both hands and position them like you would when you were holding a gamepad notice something? wow you can move your thumb around easily because its on top now lay them on your keyboard and try moving around your thumb while you have your other 4 fingers ON the keyboar especially move your thumb from ALT to pressing both ctrl and shift oh guess what you cant move around the thumb so easily anymore it isNOT the most flexible finger to use in this situation because of 1 the ange it lies on shift 2 THE REACH you dont have theres a reason you use your thumb only for space while (touch)typing and its that you'd have to angle it to hit other keys now if you still dont understand just take your left hand on the keyboard put the first 4 fingers on A WER, pres them now alternate between pressing VBN and Space with your Thumb are you trying to tell me that that is as comfortable fast and flexible as using the other fingers? NO and I don't believe its a matter of practice, since the problem lies in the way the thumb is resting on these keys You don't have to angle your thumb to press any keys. You pull out the keys that would be in the way, so for example, in your spacebar-v-b-n analogy, the spacebar would be pulled out, making it easy to use your thumb to press v-b-n. In addition, you would not have to switch between alt, shift, and control very quickly. The only thing that alt is used for is setting location hotkeys. Switching between shift and control is not a problem as they are right next to each other. Even besides the agility point, your thumb can still press the key it's resting on just as quickly as any other home row key. This is a big part of the layout, as it is very useful to have the thumb on the most pressed key of the game. (shift) But still, despite all of your arguments on how inefficient it is to use your thumb to press control, alt, and shift, you have not given a single reason why the alternative, your pinky, is better. If you want to argue against change you have to say that what you have is better than the change, not just simply say that the change is bad. | ||
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maLaK1
Germany124 Posts
On June 10 2012 18:08 uoeahtns wrote: But still, despite all of your arguments on how inefficient it is to use your thumb to press control, alt, and shift, you have not given a single reason why the alternative, your pinky, is better. If you want to argue against change you have to say that what you have is better than the change, not just simply say that the change is bad. first: even with the space key pulled out it still feels weird to me hitting the VBN keys because of the angle the thumb lies on them Left Shift is better because hitting CTRL+Shift + QWASDF and ALT+QWASDF like in Darkgrid is a lot faster than doing the same with CTRL+SHIFT(Using your thumb) plus IJKOPM especially the CTRL+SHIFT Part while ALT + these keys feels weird its still doable, but the CTRL+Shift using your thumb part is the worst thing to me I think hitting CTRL+SHIFT with your pinky and Ring Finger + QWASDF and using alt to recall those is better, alternating between CTRL+SHIFT(Pinky+Ringfinger)+Camera Keys and Alt + Camera Keys is for me a lot easier than doing the same on the right side with CTRL+SHIFT(thumb)+Camera Keys and then move your thumb to ALT and to the same | ||
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uoeahtns
52 Posts
On June 10 2012 18:18 maLaK1 wrote: first: even with the space key pulled out it still feels weird to me hitting the VBN keys because of the angle the thumb lies on them Left Shift is better because hitting CTRL+Shift + QWASDF and ALT+QWASDF like in Darkgrid is a lot faster than doing the same with CTRL+SHIFT(Using your thumb) plus IJKOPM especially the CTRL+SHIFT Part while ALT + these keys feels weird its still doable, but the CTRL+Shift using your thumb part is the worst thing to me I think hitting CTRL+SHIFT with your pinky and Ring Finger + QWASDF and using alt to recall those is better, alternating between CTRL+SHIFT(Pinky+Ringfinger)+Camera Keys and Alt + Camera Keys is for me a lot easier than doing the same on the right side with CTRL+SHIFT(thumb)+Camera Keys and then move your thumb to ALT and to the same By saying that pressing v-b-n is awkward with spacebar pulled out, you are pretty much saying that pressing spacebar is awkward in general, as they are pretty much the same motion. Especially because right shift is one row above spacebar and i-p is one row above the home row. Moving your thumb a half of an inch over to press control shift is pretty much the same as pressing the right side of the shift key. That is much faster than moving your thumb an entire inch to press the alt key. You can't reliably base your reasons of of feeling as what you have been using already is always going to feel more comfortable than something new. | ||
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maLaK1
Germany124 Posts
On June 10 2012 18:34 uoeahtns wrote: By saying that pressing v-b-n is awkward with spacebar pulled out, you are pretty much saying that pressing spacebar is awkward in general, as they are pretty much the same motion. Especially because right shift is one row above spacebar and i-p is one row above the home row. WTF is the logic youre using here 1 NO it isnt since the spacebar is a fucking huge key compared to the others as I said the thumb is not precise and not flexible also the spacebar being 1 row lower makes a huge difference even when the space bar would be pulled out Moving your thumb a half of an inch over to press control shift is pretty much the same as pressing the right side of the shift key. That is much faster than moving your thumb an entire inch to press the alt key. Of course! that makes sense, using your thumb to press 2keys is the same as pressing one key, also if you didn't know using your thumb to press 3 keys is almost the same as pressing 2 keys so just angle your hand and hit CTRL+SHIFT+ENTER its not weird at all You can't reliably base your reasons of of feeling as what you have been using already is always going to feel more comfortable than something new. But I can test both darkgrid and core and tell you that darkgrid is better in my opinion since the core is supposed to be an improvement on darkcore everybody is argueing with me here , because I wrote in my first post that I like darkgrid better im curious as to how many people here actually think the new layout is comfortable and an improvement maybe i'm an excepction, so what, I won't use it, I can still state my opinion that I don't like it | ||
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maLaK1
Germany124 Posts
i like the idea behind it but I still don't like the right sided layout, the two build /morph drone buttons are supposed to be the most accessible/fastest after I for unit attack move? for example: building a pool with dark grid or evo chamber F+S F+D standard layout B+S B+V F+S and F+D is a lot faster for me and more comfortable than /?+U or >.+M you minized hand finger/movement, but the fingers used are not necessarily faster or better "so just practice/learn to controll your pinky finger more and thumb", you can practicer for +10 years and you still wont have the same controll over the pinky finger as over the ring/middle and pointer fingers, do you really believe its efficient to not use the fingers that get used the most ? that you have used playing games for the last X years`? | ||
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Antylamon
United States1981 Posts
On June 10 2012 18:51 maLaK1 wrote: But I can test both darkgrid and core and tell you that darkgrid is better in my opinion since the core is supposed to be an improvement on darkcore everybody is argueing with me here , because I wrote in my first post that I like darkgrid better im curious as to how many people here actually think the new layout is comfortable and an improvement maybe i'm an excepction, so what, I won't use it, I can still state my opinion that I don't like it Core has a longer learning curve than Darkgrid. Much longer. Of course Darkgrid is better if you play only a handful of games with each. How many games did you play on each layout, anyways? If it's less than 20, then my point stands. | ||
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maLaK1
Germany124 Posts
On June 10 2012 23:25 Antylamon wrote: Core has a longer learning curve than Darkgrid. Much longer. Of course Darkgrid is better if you play only a handful of games with each. How many games did you play on each layout, anyways? If it's less than 20, then my point stands. read again what you wrote there, and then try using your brain before you post next time User was warned for this post | ||
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uoeahtns
52 Posts
On June 10 2012 18:51 maLaK1 wrote: WTF is the logic youre using here 1 NO it isnt since the spacebar is a fucking huge key compared to the others as I said the thumb is not precise and not flexible also the spacebar being 1 row lower makes a huge difference even when the space bar would be pulled out Of course! that makes sense, using your thumb to press 2keys is the same as pressing one key, also if you didn't know using your thumb to press 3 keys is almost the same as pressing 2 keys so just angle your hand and hit CTRL+SHIFT+ENTER its not weird at all But I can test both darkgrid and core and tell you that darkgrid is better in my opinion since the core is supposed to be an improvement on darkcore everybody is argueing with me here , because I wrote in my first post that I like darkgrid better im curious as to how many people here actually think the new layout is comfortable and an improvement maybe i'm an excepction, so what, I won't use it, I can still state my opinion that I don't like it My logic is that the thumb would be making the movement that would downpress the shift key would also downpress the space bar. I have no more difficulty in pressing the spacebar no matter where ,in my thumbs reach, I press it, so pressing the shift and / keys are pretty much like pressing spacebar. Also you give no reason why the spacebar being one row lower is a huge deal. About pressing control+shift being the same as pressing the right side of the shift key, moving your thumb to press the right side of the shift key in the most comfortable manner would simultaneously depress the control key. Pressing control-shift-enter is much more comfortable while pressing enter with your index finger. My reasoning applied to two keys, but you wrongfully extended it to three. Control-shift works because the thumb requires very little movement (which would not be the same for control-shift-enter) and press with solely the distal phalange of your thumb. Now, you say you are being argued with because you like darkgrid. This isn't because people don't like people that like darkgrid, but because they dislike your reasoning. (I think...) It's ok to like darkgrid better for reasons such as not liking to have so many abilities on your ring and pinky, not wanting to switch to a new layout, not being happy with the idea of having to pull out keys, etc. but saying that using your thumb to press down keys is inefficient will cause people to argue. | ||
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poeticEnnui
United States78 Posts
On June 10 2012 18:51 maLaK1 wrote:everybody is argueing with me here , because I wrote in my first post that I like darkgrid better im curious as to how many people here actually think the new layout is comfortable and an improvement maybe i'm an excepction, so what, I won't use it, I can still state my opinion that I don't like it I used Darkgrid for a bit before The Core came out. Darkgrid is more comfortable at first because your hands are in a familiar spot, but Core is just way more ergonomic. I'm ~30 games in, and the thumb thing that you're bringing up is, at least to me, a total non-issue. The hardest part for me is the control groupings at the moment. And of course you're entitled to your opinion -- the thing is, when your experience contradicts so many others, of course your opinion going to get attacked. I thought the thumb was awkward as fuck to use in the first 5-10 games, but after that it was smooth sailing and -- again -- a non-issue. Let's all take a breather and bring this back to rational-critical disccusion instead of personal attacks, yeah? :3 EDIT:: squee, just beat a Master league player using Core! getting somewhere! I prefer F5 for Escape. Feels more natural and deliberate on the ring finger. | ||
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Antylamon
United States1981 Posts
On June 10 2012 23:36 maLaK1 wrote: read again what you wrote there, and then try using your brain before you post next time User was warned for this post lolwut? I reread my post about 3 times before posting. Besides, you haven't answered my question. EDIT: Oh, I get it, you misinterpreted my "of course"... somehow... EDIT EDIT: OHHH you're from Germany. English being your second (or third or whatever) language probably doesn't help you in interpreting my post. | ||
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Detwiler
United States239 Posts
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Thehummel
Denmark122 Posts
1) On the layouts there is text indicating that a hatch is on P, is that something i have to bind every time at the start ( Like the standard ) Or is that pre-binded? 2) Will the normal TheCore download work on a nordic keyboard? This looks quite awesome, cant wait to try it! | ||
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Czarnodziej
Poland624 Posts
On June 11 2012 02:50 Thehummel wrote: 1) On the layouts there is text indicating that a hatch is on P, is that something i have to bind every time at the start ( Like the standard ) Or is that pre-binded? You have to bind it every time. | ||
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