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I used this through about 20 practice games yesterday. There is a lot of muscle memory to override. I walked away frustrated numerous times. I plan on sticking with it though. Normally i am around 160 apm or so as a Terran player. When i first switched I was down to 100 or so. At the end of the day yesterday I was getting back up to 120 apm.
I still struggle with things like walking my siege tanks, managing multiple drops, and occasionally macro. What is making me want to stay with this layout is that some things just feel so good. Build, and advanced build being on the thumb is awesome and easy. I almost never miss these now where as before I would hit one or the other incorrectly. Shift clicking with the thumb also feels really nice. Macroing is so much easier once you get used to it. I could tell last night that the muscles were finally getting used to building scvs and mule drops. Lastly I have a much easier time using 3+ control groups where before 3 was about my upper limit because I would run out of easily reachable keys.
The hardest part so far is just remembering what keys are for the spells/abilities/upgrades etc. I also sometimes slide my hand to the left one key on accident when doing things like stutter step..
All in all good job to the creator. I like the thinking outside the box and I do intend to stick with it.
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JaKaTaK, I have another question regarding the camera hotkeys. I am using the german right handed no mouse layout right now with Protoss, and I find it quite weird to use B, N and 7 for my chronoboost and warp location keys. I think I read while going through every single page of this thread that there would be somewhat of a change being done to it, and if not, I would like to ask you how to position my mouse correctly for being able to use these keys properly.
PS: I miss my double Xel'Naga location keys from Darkgrid! 
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I've been wondering why, on the forge, Attack is set to I and Armor to J. Its out of order (not left to right neatly like it would be as J Attack and I Armor) and illogical - why is the more used attack upgrade put on the less convenient I?
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I've been trying this out, its rather hard for someone who's played with normal hotkeys for BW and sc2 for like 5 years. However it is awesome and I think it will be worth the effort.
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On June 12 2012 03:01 Larias wrote:
I've been wondering why, on the forge, Attack is set to I and Armor to J. Its out of order (not left to right neatly like it would be as J Attack and I Armor) and illogical - why is the more used attack upgrade put on the less convenient I?
If you look at the data document, you'll notice all of the build commands go in this order for RRM I, J, I, K, M.
So for example, Probe is I, Chrono is J, Mothership is /. Since attack upgrade is used more, it follows this convention and is placed on I.
On June 03 2012 06:50 JaKaTaK wrote:
We never let ourselves ask the question “what makes this easiest to learn”. We always chose what was most efficient, what was fastest, what was most ergonomic. These are our guiding principals.
I looked at the data document and I find something rather intriguing with both and RLM & RRM setups. Attack Object is used more than Unit Ability 1, but attack is set to J/G and ability 1 is I/R. This is inconsistent with the build commands where I/R is used before J/G. I'm interested to hear your thought process behind this. Sorry if I missed a previous explanation for this, but I couldn't find one.
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On June 12 2012 06:00 TheAmpersand wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 06:50 JaKaTaK wrote:
We never let ourselves ask the question “what makes this easiest to learn”. We always chose what was most efficient, what was fastest, what was most ergonomic. These are our guiding principals.
I looked at the data document and I find something rather intriguing with both and RLM & RRM setups. Attack Object is used more than Unit Ability 1, but attack is set to J/G and ability 1 is I/R. This is inconsistent with the build commands where I/R is used before J/G. I'm interested to hear your thought process behind this. Sorry if I missed a previous explanation for this, but I couldn't find one.
One possibility for this is that using j/g for attack allows for more flexibility with your other keys. It is much easier to reach keys when pressing attack with your pinky than with your ring finger. It makes sense to put ability 1 on i/r, as you are not using abilities in conjunction with hotkeys as much as you are with the mouse, but whenever you move your army you have to use multiple hotkeys, making it better to use j/g as opposed to i/r
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I am a huge fan of camera keys since I switched to using them a year ago. Once I started using them and actually incorporated them into my play by disabling the 'center on townhall' camera hotkey, my mechanics skyrocketed.
The change to make ctrt+ shift+[j,i,o,p,;] is brilliant, I can't wait to change my hot keys and use it.
Secondly, I didn't get used to using two different keys for burrowing, but I really liked your reasoning for having them be two different keys, and I was planning to master using them. Why did you change burrow to one key?
Thanks,
StratWaffle
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It is important for me to know why anyone would use the load command as many times as it shows up on the data document. Is it actually a useful command??
@StratWaffle, I recently learned that if you have ground units selected, some burrowed, some unburrowed, you only have the option to burrow Same is true with the supply depot
@ampersand/uoeahtns, that is absolutely correct, it is very difficult to combine I with the different control groups when compared to J. Attack on J is pretty much unavoidable unfortunately.
@KuBa We are considering having some closer camera keys that aren't layered. You do have your double Xel'Naga camera keys, in fact you have 3 now. They just aren't as close because
@tockar We will be working on versions for those with smaller hands in the future. For now, you'll have to make your own adjustments.
Thank you all for your compliments. We're glad you're liking the layout so far and appreciate your feedback. Keep it coming!
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Hey everyone.
Thanks for making a very cool layout, I love the data behind it 
I just started playing around with this, and I downloaded the latest layout for right mouse with 4 & 5 mouse key.
I'm having an issue:
I swapped my macro buildings key and home base key so my setup is like this:
Base command group = middle mouse button/wheel
Macro command group = back mouse button
When I was adding on my natural expansion I noticed that adding the command center bugged out, and narrowed it down to the following use case:
1: Start off clean, no command groups and with the mouse button switch I wrote about earlier.
2: Select a building.
3: Press ctrl + middle mouse button/wheel to assign it to that command group.
4: Select a new building so you only have that building selected.
5: Press shift + middle mouse button/wheel.
6: ! Notice how the selection switched back to the first command group assigned and nothing was added to the command group.
I'm not quite sure what causes this, but it's super frustrating as my middle mouse button/wheel isn't great to click and I'm already used to having back mouse button as my drag-camera-key.
Any ideas?
EDIT:
Grats on 300 posts, man!
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Thanks for the congratulations man :D As far the issue you are having, I don't know what could be causing that. Hopefully someone else will know how to fix it. In general, I just don't use the mouse wheel button for anything. Good luck with that man.
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@Luggage 10 bucks its because you've forgotten to change the actual "add to control group"-command. I tried it now, and it works as intended.
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On June 11 2012 09:39 JaKaTaK wrote:
It is faster, and puts less strain on the fingers, to press a key combination with 2 fingers than with the same finger. I agree that at some point it would become slower, but I did not find any examples of this in TheCore. /+m is faster than /+/ IMO.
The thing is, you're (or at least I am) already pressing repetitively because of spamming, and using double click could potentially free up e.g. one or two additional single click location keys which overall could save more time and apm.
Also, I had two more questions/suggestions I believe you didn't catch, so I'm just reposting them
1. Why is create location alt + key, while locate location is ctrl + shift + key? As far as I'm concerned ctrl + shift + key is the least easy and comfortable action of the two, and thus should be "create location", seeing as you only perform that action once per game, or am I missing something?
2. I noticed ghost's "hold fire"- and "weapons free"-abilities shares the same key. Are they supposed to do that, or is it some kind of bug happening when using the american layout with a norwegian system?
On another subject I've gotta say I'm really starting to feel the power of theCore now as I'm getting more and more used to it! Just outmicroed and crushed a platinum Protoss as Terran (whereas my Terran used to have problems in gold before).
So far I've only been focusing on getting used to a few things at a time. Only been making a few specific units; no location keys, and only the most essential control groups, but I feel like in just a few more days I will be better than ever!
Oh and I hit space with my little finger (pinky, is it?)..
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On June 12 2012 10:11 Tzuborg wrote:
1. Why is create location alt + key, while locate location is ctrl + shift + key? As far as I'm concerned ctrl + shift + key is the least easy and comfortable action of the two, and thus should be "create location", seeing as you only perform that action once per game, or am I missing something?
Oh and I hit space with my little finger (pinky, is it?)..
I believe it is because your thumb is already over shift and ctrl. You would have to move your thumb to press the 'Alt' key whereas with the current setup you only have to move your thumb up a little and press shift and 'ctrl' at the same time.
Unrelated question, for zergs with mouse buttons on you diagram, it appears you think of ';' as a harrass camera? Otherwise, you have 11 control groups. Could you clarify what you mean please?
Thanks,
StratWaffle
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@Tzuborg
1. shift+ctrl recalls because its faster than reaching for alt and also to work with shift-clicks to minerals and the layered camera inject method.
2. weapons free and hold fire are the same key because the ghost is the only unit with that many abilities and if they were different keys it would mean pushing all the rest of the keys out further for an almost never used ability.
@stratwaffle
there are 10 control groups. We grouped " in there (it is a camera key) because we sacrificed a control group to do it. This may get changed at some point, but for now, we're testing it out to see how it feels. :D
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This is really intriguing. Unfortunately I just changed my camera hotkeys and I'm getting used to that, the frustration has made me averse to changing around more.
A couple of questions: You mentioned that for piano the closer your hands are and the more angled your forearm is the better your hands work - can you link me to some study which discusses this? I'm curious.
One day when I start getting owned on the ladder (tomorrow) I'll probably be really frustrated and want to try this. Great post, great idea, and thanks!
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On June 12 2012 12:24 Pheint wrote:One day when I start getting owned on the ladder (tomorrow) I'll probably be really frustrated and want to try this. Great post, great idea, and thanks!
Bad idea, because learning this for the first time will frustrate you even more 
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On June 12 2012 12:27 poeticEnnui wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 12:24 Pheint wrote:One day when I start getting owned on the ladder (tomorrow) I'll probably be really frustrated and want to try this. Great post, great idea, and thanks! Bad idea, because learning this for the first time will frustrate you even more
Well then I'll experience firsthand the ennui that your username references my friend =D
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I'd like to share a new perspective on layering:
The reason why layers are such a good idea is that we don't have to move our fingers away from the resting position. However, since the many different things we do cannot all fit on the resting position keys, we sometimes still have to stretch fingers. Take Kuba's camera problem as an example: He'd like to have his Xel'Naga-cameras closer to restings position, but has to reach N and B for it.
What now if we introduced an additional layer (call it "Xel'Naga Cameras" or so)? Ctrl+I could replace the N, Ctrl+J the B and so on (Shit+I and Shift+J could set these positions). Does that violate any of the principles the Core was build on?
It would not have to apply to cameras only. I guess it could be applied to anything people think is too far away from resting positions. Also it could make it easier to introduce the HotS units to the Core, since the Core will run out of close keys by then. (I would advise though to keep it a group of things ("1 layer for 1 function"), because otherwise it might get confusing.)
Instead of moving further away from resting positions, the Core would move deeper into the resting positions, if you know what I mean.
Just an idea, have not even tested it myself. Just wanted to bounce it off you guys.
[Edit for wording.]
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On June 12 2012 17:17 asdir wrote:
I'd like to share a new perspective on layering:
The reason why layers are such a good idea is that we don't have to move our fingers away from the resting position. However, since the many different things we do cannot all fit on the resting position keys, we sometimes still have to stretch fingers. Take Kuba's camera problem as an example: He'd like to have his Xel'Naga-cameras closer to restings position, but has to reach N and B for it.
What now if we introduced an additional layer (call it "Xel'Naga Cameras" or so)? Ctrl+I could replace the N, Ctrl+J the B and so on. Does that violate any of the principles the Core was build on?
It would not have to apply to cameras only. I guess it could be applied to anything people think is too far away from resting positions. Also it could make it easier to introduce the HotS units to the Core, since the Core will run out of close keys by then. (I would advise though to keep it a group of things ("1 layer for 1 function"), because otherwise it might get confusing.)
Instead of moving further away from resting positions, the Core would move deeper into the resting positions, if you know what I mean.
Just an idea, have not even tested it myself. Just wanted to bounce it off you guys.
[Edit for wording.]
Mother of god... you may just be a genius. Implementing this right away. AMAZING idea.
EDIT: Haha ok trying. The only modification keys left are ALT+SHIFT and ALT+CTRL, both of which are very difficult to use. Still thinking. SHIFT alone cannot be used because you need to be able to shift queue attack and spell commands.
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On June 12 2012 17:42 bgalang92 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 17:17 asdir wrote:
I'd like to share a new perspective on layering:
The reason why layers are such a good idea is that we don't have to move our fingers away from the resting position. However, since the many different things we do cannot all fit on the resting position keys, we sometimes still have to stretch fingers. Take Kuba's camera problem as an example: He'd like to have his Xel'Naga-cameras closer to restings position, but has to reach N and B for it.
What now if we introduced an additional layer (call it "Xel'Naga Cameras" or so)? Ctrl+I could replace the N, Ctrl+J the B and so on. Does that violate any of the principles the Core was build on?
It would not have to apply to cameras only. I guess it could be applied to anything people think is too far away from resting positions. Also it could make it easier to introduce the HotS units to the Core, since the Core will run out of close keys by then. (I would advise though to keep it a group of things ("1 layer for 1 function"), because otherwise it might get confusing.)
Instead of moving further away from resting positions, the Core would move deeper into the resting positions, if you know what I mean.
Just an idea, have not even tested it myself. Just wanted to bounce it off you guys.
[Edit for wording.] Mother of god... you may just be a genius. Implementing this right away. AMAZING idea. EDIT: Haha ok trying. The only modification keys left are ALT+SHIFT and ALT+CTRL, both of which are very difficult to use. Still thinking. SHIFT alone cannot be used because you need to be able to shift queue attack and spell commands.
I guess that shows that I shouldn't think about Starcraft while at work. :D
Will maybe try something tonight. I'm back to work now (for real).
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EPT
