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On April 05 2012 09:36 kawaiiryuko wrote:In Stephano's fast-max roach style, the warren doesn't go down until almost 7m mark. Assuming that Toss has 5 +1 Zealots @ 7 min, I would imagine that you could probably snipe the third (and maybe a queen if one has been transferred over) - roaches wouldn't be able to pop until 8:22 at the earliest (assuming the 7min roach warren). With positioning between minerals, zealots can hold off almost infinity speedlings. 
Yeah, but there`s no divine law binding the Zerg to build the Roach Warren at 7min. He can scout what`s up early enough and react by placing it earlier.
The main concern about the build seems to be the delayed tech (saving the zealots or not is not that relevant in dealing with the roach spam follow-up). I am willing to do some yabot runs to see what is the impact on gas overall compared to normal 20-21 double assimilator out of FFE.
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I had someone do this to me the other day and follow up with Stalker/Sentry/Immortal with double robo, but if the zerg has roaches when the zealot pressure hits (which they should, and I did), then all they have to do is attack you right after and keep making units. Yes, zerg has to cut a bit to do this, but whenever I scout a lot of zealots and chrono on +1 or gates then I make this sacrifice and it will always put the zerg way ahead. This build relies on the zerg reacting poorly to the zealot pressure and then hoping they don't see your third and attack it before you have sentries, stalkers, and some defense at your third.
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On April 05 2012 06:19 Arcanefrost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 06:08 HoMM wrote:On April 05 2012 05:57 Arcanefrost wrote:
Stephano style is not holdable with this in my experience, I like the idea but it just doesn't really work out that well imo. SaSe intentionally chose this to counter Ret's macro-roach style, even though he still lost, him even doing the build vs Ret means he considers this viable, which means that it is viable. Obviously he knows a lot more about this build because he has practiced and discussed it with Naniwa and the Startale protosses. I dont think sase cared enough to show his real style tbh.
That was a game in the final series in a tournament for a $500 increase in prize money, not really a ladder game or a meaningless pool play game. I think that we can throw the idea he didn't care right out the window.
The guide is good and I am definitely going to try this build, but I feel like a few of the sections should be expanded. In particular the midgame one needs work "You want to have at least 8 gateways and constantly make units from the gateways available while you are researching warp gate." that advice is not very helpful.
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added a youtube video to the OP
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On April 05 2012 10:06 TheFrankOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 06:19 Arcanefrost wrote:On April 05 2012 06:08 HoMM wrote:On April 05 2012 05:57 Arcanefrost wrote:
Stephano style is not holdable with this in my experience, I like the idea but it just doesn't really work out that well imo. SaSe intentionally chose this to counter Ret's macro-roach style, even though he still lost, him even doing the build vs Ret means he considers this viable, which means that it is viable. Obviously he knows a lot more about this build because he has practiced and discussed it with Naniwa and the Startale protosses. I dont think sase cared enough to show his real style tbh. That was a game in the final series in a tournament for a $500 increase in prize money, not really a ladder game or a meaningless pool play game. I think that we can throw the idea he didn't care right out the window. The guide is good and I am definitely going to try this build, but I feel like a few of the sections should be expanded. In particular the midgame one needs work "You want to have at least 8 gateways and constantly make units from the gateways available while you are researching warp gate." that advice is not very helpful.
thank you for pointing that out. I have edited that section to be a bit more detail. I hope it helps out ^_^
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FWIW, quoting from another thread about how to counter Stephano's ZvP 12min Roach Build (found here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320894):
On March 20 2012 18:05 RaNgeD wrote:
That being said, I really like what SaSe was doing in Game 1 against ret. I don't know how viable it is, and I don't know how zergs will react to a fast 3rd like that once they've played against it a few times and have had the chance to sit down and study it out a bit. But the general idea is amazing to me.
In my last 100-200 pvz games I've done the fast 3rd off of 4 gates/robo like mentioned earlier in this thread, and from my experience I can say this:
The times when zerg decide to max on roaches at 12 minutes and kill me, 50% of the time I die. And the games that I do win, it was usually that the zerg made some critical mistake, like letting me cut off 1/2 of 1/4 of his roaches and kill them for free. I've made a lot of adjustments to the build to try and survive that 12 minute wave of 200/200 roaches, like getting hallucination instead of an obs, that way i'm able to get an extra immortal out, and just use cannons and detection. Keep in mind that these are ladder games; if I could find some customs against good zergs it would be nice, but for the most part, these players aren't even near the calibre of stephano. I can't say for sure, but i'm coming to the conclusion that I think the 3rd base with this current build is too slow. The 3rd base doesn't kick in enough before you are over-run with roaches.
and
On March 21 2012 01:52 kcdc wrote:
I think that Sase's opening is really interesting as well, but I think even that fast of a third will wind up well behind in army size. First, a stalker roughly equals a roach in combat strength, but costs twice as much. Second, Z has to spend substantially less on infrastructure for the 3-base roach max compared to a 3-base Protoss defense.
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So ~1000 minerals is the minimum infrastructure difference as I see it. If you want some extra cannons or blink or a robo support bay or some extra gates, it's going to add up pretty fast.
Given that your build is based on SaSe's, and these are two experienced players talking about the feasibility of SaSe's build vs. Stephano's ZvP roach build, I figure it would be relevant to bring that to this thread.
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On April 05 2012 10:06 TheFrankOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 06:19 Arcanefrost wrote:On April 05 2012 06:08 HoMM wrote:On April 05 2012 05:57 Arcanefrost wrote:
Stephano style is not holdable with this in my experience, I like the idea but it just doesn't really work out that well imo. SaSe intentionally chose this to counter Ret's macro-roach style, even though he still lost, him even doing the build vs Ret means he considers this viable, which means that it is viable. Obviously he knows a lot more about this build because he has practiced and discussed it with Naniwa and the Startale protosses. I dont think sase cared enough to show his real style tbh. That was a game in the final series in a tournament for a $500 increase in prize money, not really a ladder game or a meaningless pool play game. I think that we can throw the idea he didn't care right out the window.
He just does generic PvZ builds, not the builds that show his real style. Pro players don't show their best builds if there's little money on the line.
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On April 05 2012 14:13 kawaiiryuko wrote:FWIW, quoting from another thread about how to counter Stephano's ZvP 12min Roach Build (found here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320894):Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 18:05 RaNgeD wrote:
That being said, I really like what SaSe was doing in Game 1 against ret. I don't know how viable it is, and I don't know how zergs will react to a fast 3rd like that once they've played against it a few times and have had the chance to sit down and study it out a bit. But the general idea is amazing to me.
In my last 100-200 pvz games I've done the fast 3rd off of 4 gates/robo like mentioned earlier in this thread, and from my experience I can say this:
The times when zerg decide to max on roaches at 12 minutes and kill me, 50% of the time I die. And the games that I do win, it was usually that the zerg made some critical mistake, like letting me cut off 1/2 of 1/4 of his roaches and kill them for free. I've made a lot of adjustments to the build to try and survive that 12 minute wave of 200/200 roaches, like getting hallucination instead of an obs, that way i'm able to get an extra immortal out, and just use cannons and detection. Keep in mind that these are ladder games; if I could find some customs against good zergs it would be nice, but for the most part, these players aren't even near the calibre of stephano. I can't say for sure, but i'm coming to the conclusion that I think the 3rd base with this current build is too slow. The 3rd base doesn't kick in enough before you are over-run with roaches. and Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 01:52 kcdc wrote:
I think that Sase's opening is really interesting as well, but I think even that fast of a third will wind up well behind in army size. First, a stalker roughly equals a roach in combat strength, but costs twice as much. Second, Z has to spend substantially less on infrastructure for the 3-base roach max compared to a 3-base Protoss defense.
.
.
.
So ~1000 minerals is the minimum infrastructure difference as I see it. If you want some extra cannons or blink or a robo support bay or some extra gates, it's going to add up pretty fast.
Given that your build is based on SaSe's, and these are two experienced players talking about the feasibility of SaSe's build vs. Stephano's ZvP roach build, I figure it would be relevant to bring that to this thread.
thanks for the quotes...nice to see higher level players seeing potential in this build
and @Arcanefrost if you do not wish to contribute to this build, please stop posting in this thread. Your post are just assumptions that you think you know SaSe and trying to tell us he didn't try in the finals of the Red Bull LAN. How do you know that exactly? Did you ask him?
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More information has been added as well as replays ^_^
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I have been giving this a try, really fun to do something different and also to get a fast third. Powering with 2 robo's is really strong too :D I just feel like heavy mutas is a slight weakness here, considering blink is so late. But I guess you can do cannons to deal with that to some degree.
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It sounds like sc:bw PvZ fast third, but roaches are the real problem imho.
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Looking at the picture under "Opening", I see it's 7:35 into the game and your Cybernetics Core is just finishing as your third is started. How do you stop the Zerg from Overlord scouting everything you're doing up to this point, especially on a 2-player map like Cloud Kingdom where the Overlord will be sent directly to your base every time?
If NOTHING else he should be able to see the upgrade working on the Forge, which should tell him a Zealot timing is coming and he should really figure that it's coming for his third base. I think this can take games off people for a while by surprise, but honestly I just see it being added to the pile of attacks Zerg have to figure out... and then curbstomp with Roaches. They won't be playing true Stephano-Style with an earlier set of Roaches but they will be playing from ahead.
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Ok I've been experimenting with fast 3rd builds lately (~6:30-7:30ish 3rds). First off IMO there is absolutely no reason, absolutely none, why you would go FFE over this opening (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Gate_Nexus_YufFE) if your goal is to zealot pressure of any kind. With a gate-nexus opening your zealot pressure can hit FASTER with MORE zealots. The economy from both openings is about the same, but with a gate-nexus you have warpgate tech done to reinforce your initial zealot pressure. I've played around with a ton of double gate zealot pressure builds out of FFE and they are just plain horrible compared to out of a gate-nexus opening, it's not even close. My practice partners would easily count the number of zealots I had trucking it across the map and make exactly the right amount of units to stop it and wouldn't miss a beat econ-wise. Not so when you have warpgate tech done.
For an example of one way to do zealot pressure out of a gate-nexus opener check out this guide (there are various ways you can do it this is just one variant): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315275
Second, go twilight -> single robo instead of double robo into twilight. The advantages of twilight:
-Faster access to +2 weapons. This is not as insignificant as it sounds because a +3 weapons colossi timing is, IMO, one of the strongest timings a protoss player can exploit in the current 3-hatch mass roach metagame. The timing is meant to punish the broodlord transition, so obviously the faster the better. Also due to the fast +2 weapons (which will be done when a max roach push hits you) it somewhat hedges the need to get a lot of immortals. Basically, if you hold your 3rd vs max roach pushes you can practically do an immediate +3 colossi counter push when you max out and end the game 9 times out of 10 and not have to worry about your 4th, teching to mothership, etc at all.
-More stable as a blink stalker/sentry backbone is safe vs everything he can throw at you, with no real weakness to mutas. IMO double muta is incredibly vulnerable to a 3-base straight tech to muta (or infestor) build if he does not force roaches. Zerg does not need roaches to deflect 4 zealots. Like I said I open with gate-nexus so I get my core up a lot faster than you and have to decide my tech usually around the time I'm pushing out with my zealots (~6:30), so I have to make this decision somewhat blind as I won't have hallucination or obs out yet.
-You have more map presence earlier in the game, for example you have the option to do a really strong +2 blink stalker/sentry push at around 10:30-ish. This is VERY important so the zerg cannot be tech greedy and tech straight to broodlords. I believe if fast 3rd builds ever become popular in PvZ zergs will try to fast tech to broodlords so you must be able to punish them if you suspect they are being tech greedy.
And one final point I'd like to make is that I do believe a fast 3rd is holdable with good control and positioning, however it is most definitely not the easiest way to play PvZ, or to put it another way I believe for the vast majority of players a strong 2-base timing will net you far more wins on ladder as it is vastly easier to execute. If all you care about is wins then this is something to consider. If you just like to play macro games all the time and care less about wins, or need to vary your playstyle for some reason (e.g. you play in tournaments) then sure go gangbusters. Personally I mostly only go for fast 3rds if I'm playing somebody repeatedly, such as vs practice partners who is familiar my style so this is one way I can switch it up.
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On April 05 2012 09:59 DontGiveUp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 09:36 kawaiiryuko wrote:In Stephano's fast-max roach style, the warren doesn't go down until almost 7m mark. Assuming that Toss has 5 +1 Zealots @ 7 min, I would imagine that you could probably snipe the third (and maybe a queen if one has been transferred over) - roaches wouldn't be able to pop until 8:22 at the earliest (assuming the 7min roach warren). With positioning between minerals, zealots can hold off almost infinity speedlings. Yeah, but there`s no divine law binding the Zerg to build the Roach Warren at 7min. He can scout what`s up early enough and react by placing it earlier. The main concern about the build seems to be the delayed tech (saving the zealots or not is not that relevant in dealing with the roach spam follow-up). I am willing to do some yabot runs to see what is the impact on gas overall compared to normal 20-21 double assimilator out of FFE.
There is more to it for zerg than to just throw down an earlier warren. They also have to get their gasses up far earlier because, you know, roaches cost gas. Consider that most 3-hatch no gas openers get their gasses @ 6 mins, which is far too late if you plan to have roaches out to defend 7-ish min zealot pressure. This all adds up to a much slowed down zerg economy. From my experiences you should have more quite a few more probes than drones at this point if you were constantly making probes. Of course zerg can catch up in a hurry if you leave them along, but it definitely slows them done. One of the things I always look at in my replays is their drone count throughout the early game to figure out how effective early game pressure is.
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I don't belive that this is safe in any way, decipite pros using it i belive it is very risky, if the zerg defends good he can easily bust you third.
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Even without defending, many times I've seen Stephano sacrifice his third and just go for the allin knowing the Toss is behind in tech and army. I think this would punish the expo pretty hard.
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This build is not the most solid one but sometimes it does wonders(especialy if he plans to go ling muta) and forces sooo many lings instead of drones.
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On April 15 2012 11:39 Skyro wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Ok I've been experimenting with fast 3rd builds lately (~6:30-7:30ish 3rds). First off IMO there is absolutely no reason, absolutely none, why you would go FFE over this opening (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Gate_Nexus_YufFE) if your goal is to zealot pressure of any kind. With a gate-nexus opening your zealot pressure can hit FASTER with MORE zealots. The economy from both openings is about the same, but with a gate-nexus you have warpgate tech done to reinforce your initial zealot pressure. I've played around with a ton of double gate zealot pressure builds out of FFE and they are just plain horrible compared to out of a gate-nexus opening, it's not even close. My practice partners would easily count the number of zealots I had trucking it across the map and make exactly the right amount of units to stop it and wouldn't miss a beat econ-wise. Not so when you have warpgate tech done. For an example of one way to do zealot pressure out of a gate-nexus opener check out this guide (there are various ways you can do it this is just one variant): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315275Second, go twilight -> single robo instead of double robo into twilight. The advantages of twilight: -Faster access to +2 weapons. This is not as insignificant as it sounds because a +3 weapons colossi timing is, IMO, one of the strongest timings a protoss player can exploit in the current 3-hatch mass roach metagame. The timing is meant to punish the broodlord transition, so obviously the faster the better. Also due to the fast +2 weapons (which will be done when a max roach push hits you) it somewhat hedges the need to get a lot of immortals. Basically, if you hold your 3rd vs max roach pushes you can practically do an immediate +3 colossi counter push when you max out and end the game 9 times out of 10 and not have to worry about your 4th, teching to mothership, etc at all. -More stable as a blink stalker/sentry backbone is safe vs everything he can throw at you, with no real weakness to mutas. IMO double muta is incredibly vulnerable to a 3-base straight tech to muta (or infestor) build if he does not force roaches. Zerg does not need roaches to deflect 4 zealots. Like I said I open with gate-nexus so I get my core up a lot faster than you and have to decide my tech usually around the time I'm pushing out with my zealots (~6:30), so I have to make this decision somewhat blind as I won't have hallucination or obs out yet. -You have more map presence earlier in the game, for example you have the option to do a really strong +2 blink stalker/sentry push at around 10:30-ish. This is VERY important so the zerg cannot be tech greedy and tech straight to broodlords. I believe if fast 3rd builds ever become popular in PvZ zergs will try to fast tech to broodlords so you must be able to punish them if you suspect they are being tech greedy. And one final point I'd like to make is that I do believe a fast 3rd is holdable with good control and positioning, however it is most definitely not the easiest way to play PvZ, or to put it another way I believe for the vast majority of players a strong 2-base timing will net you far more wins on ladder as it is vastly easier to execute. If all you care about is wins then this is something to consider. If you just like to play macro games all the time and care less about wins, or need to vary your playstyle for some reason (e.g. you play in tournaments) then sure go gangbusters. Personally I mostly only go for fast 3rds if I'm playing somebody repeatedly, such as vs practice partners who is familiar my style so this is one way I can switch it up.
I am interested seeing a few replays of this build using the YufFE!
OT: this is a interesting build (Plat player here) And seems to be pretty hard for the zerg to counter I am gonna try this for myself and see what happens
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On April 16 2012 05:16 PapiQuAke wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 11:39 Skyro wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Ok I've been experimenting with fast 3rd builds lately (~6:30-7:30ish 3rds). First off IMO there is absolutely no reason, absolutely none, why you would go FFE over this opening (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Gate_Nexus_YufFE) if your goal is to zealot pressure of any kind. With a gate-nexus opening your zealot pressure can hit FASTER with MORE zealots. The economy from both openings is about the same, but with a gate-nexus you have warpgate tech done to reinforce your initial zealot pressure. I've played around with a ton of double gate zealot pressure builds out of FFE and they are just plain horrible compared to out of a gate-nexus opening, it's not even close. My practice partners would easily count the number of zealots I had trucking it across the map and make exactly the right amount of units to stop it and wouldn't miss a beat econ-wise. Not so when you have warpgate tech done. For an example of one way to do zealot pressure out of a gate-nexus opener check out this guide (there are various ways you can do it this is just one variant): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315275Second, go twilight -> single robo instead of double robo into twilight. The advantages of twilight: -Faster access to +2 weapons. This is not as insignificant as it sounds because a +3 weapons colossi timing is, IMO, one of the strongest timings a protoss player can exploit in the current 3-hatch mass roach metagame. The timing is meant to punish the broodlord transition, so obviously the faster the better. Also due to the fast +2 weapons (which will be done when a max roach push hits you) it somewhat hedges the need to get a lot of immortals. Basically, if you hold your 3rd vs max roach pushes you can practically do an immediate +3 colossi counter push when you max out and end the game 9 times out of 10 and not have to worry about your 4th, teching to mothership, etc at all. -More stable as a blink stalker/sentry backbone is safe vs everything he can throw at you, with no real weakness to mutas. IMO double muta is incredibly vulnerable to a 3-base straight tech to muta (or infestor) build if he does not force roaches. Zerg does not need roaches to deflect 4 zealots. Like I said I open with gate-nexus so I get my core up a lot faster than you and have to decide my tech usually around the time I'm pushing out with my zealots (~6:30), so I have to make this decision somewhat blind as I won't have hallucination or obs out yet. -You have more map presence earlier in the game, for example you have the option to do a really strong +2 blink stalker/sentry push at around 10:30-ish. This is VERY important so the zerg cannot be tech greedy and tech straight to broodlords. I believe if fast 3rd builds ever become popular in PvZ zergs will try to fast tech to broodlords so you must be able to punish them if you suspect they are being tech greedy. And one final point I'd like to make is that I do believe a fast 3rd is holdable with good control and positioning, however it is most definitely not the easiest way to play PvZ, or to put it another way I believe for the vast majority of players a strong 2-base timing will net you far more wins on ladder as it is vastly easier to execute. If all you care about is wins then this is something to consider. If you just like to play macro games all the time and care less about wins, or need to vary your playstyle for some reason (e.g. you play in tournaments) then sure go gangbusters. Personally I mostly only go for fast 3rds if I'm playing somebody repeatedly, such as vs practice partners who is familiar my style so this is one way I can switch it up. I am interested seeing a few replays of this build using the YufFE! OT: this is a interesting build (Plat player here) And seems to be pretty hard for the zerg to counter I am gonna try this for myself and see what happens
I'm still figuring out the best transitions/follow-ups to a fast 3rd so my replays aren't the best, but you can check out TitaN from the Go4SC2 March Finals http://sc2casts.com/cast8075-LiveZerg-vs-Titan-Best-of-5-Go4SC2-Cup-Finals where he uses the YufFE expand in 3 of the 4 games.
In game 1 he goes stargate into like a 7:30ish third or so.
In game 2 he basically just defends a baneling bust.
Game 4 he does a 6-gate.
As you can see the opening has many possible follow-ups. TitaN seems to play it safe and always go gate-nexus-forge-core, but in all of those games I believe he could've quite easily gone core before forge for a faster warp gate if he so desired, but since none of his builds really utilized any early warp gate pressure it was not needed.
The one game he did FFE on (which is ironically the 1 game he lost) is where he went 15 Nexus, which has its merits of course since it is the most economical opening possible. But IMO there is really no good reason to go forge-nexus when you can go gate-nexus and tech up a lot faster, be it faster WG tech (which I like to do) or faster tech structures like stargate, robo, etc. (which TitaN does in these replays).
If you search for the other games from TitaN he opens with this same opening in all of his PvZs (there is a series with him vs Nerchio and Stephano for instance).
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Hello, I'm necroing this thread because I'm looking for some kind of PvZ 2 base into a possible third build that's more aggressive than a simple FFE into standard play, which seems to be more and more 2 base all-ins (all-in all the time? Where has chivalry gone?). I still want to use... *sigh* ... "standard" builds, but I'm trying to increase my "repertoire", so to speak, in order to grab some free ladder wins, pull better results in bo3+ series in tournaments, as well as be a generally more exciting player (both for myself and viewers).
In my TL and google searches the only build that seems somewhat viable now is this relatively old SaSe build (April 2012 isn't irrevocably old), as well as a very strange Gateway Nexus build on Liquipedia  Gate Nexus YufFE (vs. Zerg). I'd like some input on the possible viability of these builds, maybe not as a core strategy but as a "mixer upper" with a decent chance of success? Normally I'd post VODs but there's plenty of quality information in this thread as a primer to these two builds, and I don't mean to be lazy, but it doesn't seem necessary. Thanks in advance.
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EPT
