EPTBut... wait.. you don't even have a cybercore started !
No sentries = this build is an auto loss against any Zerg that banneling busts you.
[G] PvZ - +1 Zealot w/ Fast Third - Page 3
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
But... wait.. you don't even have a cybercore started ! No sentries = this build is an auto loss against any Zerg that banneling busts you. | ||
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boxman22
Canada430 Posts
On August 14 2012 21:19 Nyast wrote: So to make things totally clear, you're moving out on the map with your first 2 zealots, and suddenly you see that Zerg has speed and a shitton of speedlings. A banneling bust is incoming. Time to reinforce your wall at your natural, drop some cannons, and chrono those sentries to be able to hold.. But... wait.. you don't even have a cybercore started ! No sentries = this build is an auto loss against any Zerg that banneling busts you. The key to everything starcraft is scouting and reacting. If you see that the zerg doesn't have a 3rd and you continue with a fast 3rd build you deserve to lose... that's the point of scouting with a probe and the 1st zealot. | ||
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KingLumps
74 Posts
Edit: ling bane all in is a 3 hatch all in or can be, so seeing a 3rd doesnt Always mean safety.You'll see the 3rd but unless you see the gas in main youre dead with your build. The only other tell is if you see a shitton of lings headed to your base and at that point with your build its too late. | ||
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Doomball
United States26 Posts
On August 14 2012 23:17 KingLumps wrote: So kiwikaki's reaaaaaly old build with a fast third behind it, seems risky. Zergs learned how to deal with this back then and if this becomes popular again will probably get smashed once zergs remember how to deal with it. You sac quite a bit of tech compared to a standard +1 4 gate not having warp gate, a robo, your extra gases, and you only have 2 gates. You NEED to damage with this build or else your dangerously behind. Edit: ling bane all in is a 3 hatch all in or can be, so seeing a 3rd doesnt Always mean safety.You'll see the 3rd but unless you see the gas in main youre dead with your build. The only other tell is if you see a shitton of lings headed to your base and at that point with your build its too late. Standard +1 4 gate robo doesn't get +1 zealots out for aggression until much later. I haven't looked into it enough to compare exact timings, but there's no way chronoing +1 and producing zealots immediately off gateways will ever be near the time it takes to get warpgate and a robo, even with chronoing warpgate. The only problem I see with the build is the lack of cybercore for a while, which means a heavier reliance on gateway units for longer, as well as a possible vulnerability to baneling busts. The point here is to have an early +1 zealot timing with minimal vulnerabilities along with a possible 3rd base; standard 4 gate robo is solely a fast 3rd build, not an early pressure build with a possible 3rd. I think the two best options I've seen are the YufFE expand and this SaSe push. Honestly, with the base of the SaSe build I see no reason to get such a fast 3rd, since +2 blink stalker immortal seems well within reach, you might just not have as many immortals for the push. Yes, it's a slight risk doing this +1 chrono zealot timing with a late cyber, but it's for the sake of early pressure, and in my book that's worth it at least as an alternate build to throw out in tournaments. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
When the roaches get out, you have successfully delayed the probable maxout push by a minute at the most. However, zerg retains all the roaches they had in defending, which should be able to sweep out any proxy pylons and take towers. By 12:00 (maxout time adjusted for your harass), zerg will be maxed out with roach/ling and can continually ram army supply down your throat. Because you delay warp gate, gas, and other tech, you CANNOT trade well against roach/ling with only ~4 sentries and a few cannons, which means that even if you have the ability to warp in 8 stalkers at a time, you will slowly die because all you have to defend is sentry/stalker and not enough money to afford immortals + upgrades + blink. In the case of mutaling, the zerg player is hurling a huge muta pack at you around 13:00 with lots of zergling runbys. With the meager amount of sentries and lack of blink stalkers, there's no reason why a muta/ling force can't just pick apart your economy and just kill you. All in all, the more I've experienced in this matchup, the more I've become convinced that the only ways to take a safe 3rd currently is sentry/immortal, sentry/blink stalkers, or single Stargate into sentry/immortal. Anything that doesn't get you a healthy number of sentries (6-8) with half to full energy by 12:00 is essentially a strategy that will lose to any decent zerg player. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
No one's this stupid anymore.  | ||
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Doomball
United States26 Posts
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On August 17 2012 11:45 Doomball wrote: Spent a lot of time going over what you said. Thanks for the input, it helped me get a clearer understanding of PvZ and possible weaknesses zergs can exploit. I'm probably still gonna learn the build as a mixup, but you gave me a better idea of what to watch out for and how to adapt it, if possible. Thanks for being so diligent a poster I have a friend who does a similar build, but spine/queen + reactive lings is enough to hold it. Only the stupidest Zerg wouldn't scout it (1 gas, no core which means no anti air!, 2 gateways) The best answer is to rally 6 lings to protoss' third and deny it, while defending yours with 1 spine, 1 queen, drone micro and reactive lings. It will win many games, but it's cheesy and has a skill cap. John is right about either a robo, twilight, or stargate expand being the only fast third options. Sentry imba!  | ||
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